[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Being perfectly fair, it is really hard to combat this absolute cuteness. Look at them go!! I hope they have a good day today.

I never actually considered Erdrick at all till the leaks came by.

It was always Slime for me as the de facto option. I mean, to be fair, it's the mascot and the original representation of Random Encounters, a pretty important part of RPG history.

Though I am also a fan of regular Random Encounters, so that's part of it too. I mean, you already know one of my favorite games, heh. That said, I've played Tales of. I think the issue is while I could maybe get into the "monsters appear on the screen first", that won't help much unless it sticks to the battle style I prefer, either pure Turn-based or Battle Gauge. I don't remember with DQ game started the monsters appearing in the overworld, but did that game stick with regular Turn-based combat? If so, I'm willing to give it a try. I honestly don't know if later DQ games changed the core Turn-based battle style. I don't mean some unique spin-offs, but the regular rpg's(that includes Dragon Quest Monsters, where I only played 1 and 2).

 

[Teeb147]

Your point being? That doesn't negate risks or Square being stingy with crossovers.

I think my point is easy enough to figure out. We might get a bit less music than with the other companies, but they're not stupid to mess up the deal with nintendo.

That has nothing to do with the risks of using a literal who in the West for a 3rd party DLC. Remember, they want to be sure they'd get sales. Erdrick is a risky choice if they aren't sure he'll sell. With DQ being niche in the West, that already makes sales less likely. Those two factors together make him a choice you need to be careful about.

Not saying he's "unlikely" either. I can fully see them still going with him due to how important he is to the series. This just shows he's not some obvious lock and that we can't be sure it'd work out. These are important business factors that should not be ignored.

And no, I am not saying any of this because I prefer Slime. I just prefer Slime because I have way more love and experience for the gooey monster~

Erdrick will get more than plenty of sales in japan alone, even a lot of purchases for Smash. And it wont stop people in the west from buying the dlc if they like the character. And like I already said, it's debatable that DQ is even niche in the west. A lot of people consider it 'inbetween' niche and a well known franchise outside japan.

I really don't think there's anymore 'risk' than some other dlc they've had. They would spend more money on making any of them, and most of the licensing would taken care of as part of the deal. For extra charges that SE doesnt want to offer,.. If nintendo doesnt want to pay extra for more music, they wont, just like Cloud.

I've reached my threshold, like I said, so i will probably not reply to any posts about this for the next while after this one.

 

[Ovaltine]

For extra charges that SE doesnt want to offer, If nintendo doesnt want to pay extra for more music, they wont, just like Cloud.

That'd honestly be a huge insult to any Square rep that gets in, though, especially if it's a DQ rep. Do we really want to see a scenario where we get a rep with only two songs?

 

[Teeb147]

That'd honestly be a huge insult to any Square rep that gets in, though, especially if it's a DQ rep. Do we really want to see a scenario where we get a rep with only two songs?

I dont really care personally since i dont find dq music all that important, but hopefully we'd get more. It might have to be like that for any SE rep tho, who knows.

 

[Ovaltine]

I dont really care personally since i dont find dq music all that important, but hopefully we'd get more. It might have to be like that for any SE rep tho, who knows.

In my case, I just hope we get some SMRPG music at some point, even if Geno doesn't make it in. That's one of the Square games whose music would be a crime to just leave out. They even have Yoko Shimomura on the hecking team. C'mon, I want to rock out to Fight Against Smithy, Phase 1 while duking it out in like, Brinstar or something.

 

[Teeb147]

In my case, I just hope we get some SMRPG music at some point, even if Geno doesn't make it in. That's one of the Square games whose music would be a crime to just leave out. They even have Yoko Shimomura on the hecking team. C'mon, I want to rock out to Fight Against Smithy, Phase 1 while duking it out in like, Brinstar or something.

dlc music? I guess I am curious about if anything more than mii costumes and spirits can get into dlc.
really hoping the next one will release early summer, and then we'd see if anymore comes there too. but yeah i like smrpg music too

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think my point is easy enough to figure out. We might get a bit less music than with the other companies, but they're not stupid to mess up the deal with nintendo.

Music ain't the issue.

Erdrick will get more than plenty of sales in japan alone, even a lot of purchases for Smash. And it wont stop people in the west from buying the dlc if they like the character. And like I already said, it's debatable that DQ is even niche in the west. A lot of people consider it 'inbetween' niche and a well known franchise outside japan.

I really don't think there's anymore 'risk' than some other dlc they've had. They would spend more money on making any of them, and most of the licensing would taken care of as part of the deal. For extra charges that SE doesnt want to offer,.. If nintendo doesnt want to pay extra for more music, they wont, just like Cloud.

I've reached my threshold, like I said, so i will probably not reply to any posts about this for the next while after this one.

It's not about paying extra at all for music. It is about paying more money to use Erdrick alone that it is in comparison to using a 1st party character. That's a huge money difference alone before you even get into music, which the music would be pretty much the same if it was Slime, or Luminary, or Eight. The music is hardly a factor we're getting at anyway.

It's about being sure the initial payment for a character who they can't be sure will sell well worldwide is worth it.

There's absolutely more risk here alone. It cannot be compared to any risky 1st party character, because they're not in a remotely similar situation. First, while our two non-iconic 3rd parties exist, they have the key factor of being far more known worldwide as well. They aren't obscure/a literal who in any particular region. This is why Joker and Bayonetta overall worked. This is where Erdrick doesn't work in comparison. Being that unknown means that if they spend money on him(money that wouldn't exist for cases like Corrin or Lucas, which is why the comparisons to them don't work very well), they are making a blatant gamble that he'll guarantee a ton of sales in all countries. We can't say they'll do that. This is a good enough reason to choose a Hero who is more known in the West, or just Slime. Companies don't take risks with 3rd parties easily. We know he's more risky than others. Anybody who isn't worldwide, but also 3rd party, is inherently more risky than a regular 1st party(less chance of lost sales), whether or not that 1st party is a veteran. They're huge differences situation-wise.

 

[Teeb147]

Music ain't the issue.


It's not about paying extra at all for music. It is about paying more money to use Erdrick alone that it is in comparison to using a 1st party character. That's a huge money difference alone before you even get into music, which the music would be pretty much the same if it was Slime, or Luminary, or Eight. The music is hardly a factor we're getting at anyway.

It's about being sure the initial payment for a character who they can't be sure will sell well worldwide is worth it.

There's absolutely more risk here alone. It cannot be compared to any risky 1st party character, because they're not in a remotely similar situation. First, while our two non-iconic 3rd parties exist, they have the key factor of being far more known worldwide as well. They aren't obscure/a literal who in any particular region. This is why Joker and Bayonetta overall worked. This is where Erdrick doesn't work in comparison. Being that unknown means that if they spend money on him(money that wouldn't exist for cases like Corrin or Lucas, which is why the comparisons to them don't work very well), they are making a blatant gamble that he'll guarantee a ton of sales in all countries. We can't say they'll do that. This is a good enough reason to choose a Hero who is more known in the West, or just Slime. Companies don't take risks with 3rd parties easily. We know he's more risky than others. Anybody who isn't worldwide, but also 3rd party, is inherently more risky than a regular 1st party(less chance of lost sales), whether or not that 1st party is a veteran. They're huge differences situation-wise.

You say you dont like when people ignore your points, and then you ignore almost all of mine. very nice.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You say you dont like when people ignore your points, and then you ignore almost all of mine. very nice.

Except I didn't ignore any point.

I told you why there's more risks entirely. You think there's not, but I just blatantly explained the differences in risks.

What part did I miss? I'm countering your personal opinion of why it can't be risky by explaining that there's a difference with the situations. These are factually different situations on how risky decisions work. That doesn't mean they'd care about the risk. I'm not arguing they have to care about it. I am saying that it's possible they would.

 

[Teeb147]

Except I didn't ignore any point.

I told you why there's more risks entirely. You think there's not, but I just blatantly explained the differences in risks.

What part did I miss? I'm countering your personal opinion of why it can't be risky by explaining that there's a difference with the situations. These are factually different situations on how risky decisions work. That doesn't mean they'd care about the risk. I'm not arguing they have to care about it. I am saying that it's possible they would.

you think it's risky because erdrick isn't well known in the west. Everything I said didnt have to do with that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

you think it's risky because erdrick isn't well known in the west. Everything I said didnt have to do with that.

Sales from a small part of the world does not equate to doing well.

They want sales worldwide moreso. That's way more important for a worldwide product. If it was solely selling to Japan, that point would matter more. But they aren't.

Keep in mind they don't use Erdrick in worldwide crossovers as is among the DQ series. The characters they use are known more worldwide instead. That's evidence they take the risk into account. So even if Nintendo asks, SE might still say no as they don't feel the risk is worth it. That's the point being made. And that's even assuming Nintendo wants Edrick as playable too.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

think my point is easy enough to figure out. We might get a bit less music than with the other companies, but they're not stupid to mess up the deal with nintendo

Not really. Music wasn't really the thick of it. Also, if anyone would worry about ruining a supposed deal, it would be Nintendo, given how stubborn Square tend to be on these things.

Also, that implies that Nintendo went ahead and picked Erdrick. Which, honestly, would be an odd decision given policies.

 

[Ovaltine]

I have no horse in this race, but all I'm going to say from an objective standpoint is this:

All characters have things for and against them, and that is worth acknowledging. Keeping an open mind about these things is important. Defending your most wanted is understandable, but let's not ignore the points that are against them, just as we shouldn't discard the points that are for them. Trust me, as a Geno fan, I see a lot of people ignore Geno's shortcomings (his relative obscurity, not doing much for Square Enix as a promotional character, his irrelevancy, his only major role still being a side role, etc) and focus only on what's going for him. It shouldn't be that way for any character. That kind of thinking is just... too black and white.

 

[Teeb147]

Sales from a small part of the world does not equate to doing well.

They want sales worldwide moreso. That's way more important for a worldwide product. If it was solely selling to Japan, that point would matter more. But they aren't.

Keep in mind they don't use Erdrick in worldwide crossovers as is among the DQ series. The characters they use are known more worldwide instead. That's evidence they take the risk into account. So even if Nintendo asks, SE might still say no as they don't feel the risk is worth it. That's the point being made. And that's even assuming Nintendo wants Edrick as playable too.

I dont know why you're focusing so much on worldwide sales when Japan alone has over 2 million sales of smash ultiamte, and more copies of smash would sell there just by having a DQ rep in too. But lots of people will buy it in the west too, dragon quest fans as well as people who want a new character, and the competitive side which use all dlc characters.

And besides that, there's other points, but it doesnt matter too much because i'm about to leave (not that i would want to stay on this even i stayed around).
I also think that speculation should be lighter, and not always be about going after or defending characters. Most of the time i end up defending a character i like because people are being kind of extreme in trying to find reasons why it wouldn't work or whatever else. I dont think this is good. And in the end nintendo will do what they will.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

I have no horse in this race, but all I'm going to say from an objective standpoint is this:

All characters have things for and against them, and that is worth acknowledging. Keeping an open mind about these things is important. Defending your most wanted is understandable, but let's not ignore the points that are against them, just as we shouldn't discard the points that are for them. Trust me, as a Geno fan, I see a lot of people ignore Geno's shortcomings (his relative obscurity, not doing much for Square Enix as a promotional character, his irrelevancy, his only major role still being a side role, etc) and focus only on what's going for him. It shouldn't be that way for any character. That kind of thinking is just... too black and white.

I'm of similar mind. The more annoying thing I find is when there are mantras of a character supposedly being guranteed because of this or that with insiders. And then there's people who take offense when you act skeptical towards a character's chances. I like discussion on any level to be allowed so long as it's civil.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have no horse in this race, but all I'm going to say from an objective standpoint is this:

All characters have things for and against them, and that is worth acknowledging. Keeping an open mind about these things is important. Defending your most wanted is understandable, but let's not ignore the points that are against them, just as we shouldn't discard the points that are for them. Trust me, as a Geno fan, I see a lot of people ignore Geno's shortcomings (his relative obscurity, not doing much for Square Enix as a promotional character, his irrelevancy, his only major role still being a side role, etc) and focus only on what's going for him. It shouldn't be that way for any character. That kind of thinking is just... too black and white.

Exactly. It's why I think Erdrick has a reasonable chance. I think he would easily be worth the risk, but I can't assume that either. That's not a fair way to look at it, after all.

I tend to look at characters as "they have a chance from 1% to 99%" as well. As in, no locks(Inklings are the only one I could legitimately call a lock, with the rest varied). There's a pretty tiny list I'd throw at 0%, and that starts and ends with non-game 3rd parties. After a lot of the issues, I'm currently looking at Edrick at around 60%. I don't have extreme confidence in him. Little reason to. The leaks are iffy. He's obviously a risky character due to many factors.

I dont know why you're focusing so much on worldwide sales when Japan alone has over 2 million sales of smash ultiamte, and more copies of smash would sell there just by having a DQ rep in too. But lots of people will buy it in the west too, dragon quest fans as well as people who want a new character, and the competitive side which use all dlc characters.

And besides that, there's other points, but it doesnt matter too much because i'm about to leave (not that i would want to stay on this even i stayed around).
I also think that speculation should be lighter, and not always be about going after or defending characters. Most of the time i end up defending a character i like because people are being kind of extreme in trying to find reasons why it wouldn't work or whatever else. I dont think this is good. And in the end nintendo will do what they will.

...It's literally a worldwide game. Why would selling well in one region be good enough for them? They want the game to sell well to every region possible. Otherwise why even release it outside of Japan? It makes a ton of sense from their viewpoint to get sales worldwide, since that's their target demographic. They are not just targeting Japan here.

Why do you think they're advertising DQ harder as is in the West? So it does better there. It's supposed to be a worldwide series, but has low sales in the West. That's not something they like, obviously.

There's nothing wrong with speculation as long as people aren't attacking each other. It's fine. People have tons of different viewpoints. There hasn't been a real issue here I've noticed(or at least one I would be able to do anything about specifically, as I'm involved in this debate. So if I saw an issue, I'd let another moderator handle it as I could be unintentionally biased).

That said, while I won't remove this post, I understand you don't want to continue debating. So I'll respect that and stop replying beyond this post. I apologize if I caused you any grief.

 

[Ovaltine]

I also think that speculation should be lighter, and not always be about going after or defending characters. Most of the time i end up defending a character i like because people are being kind of extreme in trying to find reasons why it wouldn't work or whatever else. I dont think this is good.

I agree that speculation should be lighter, but with that said, I don't see what's so extreme about this. I've seen a lot of people being way more extreme against my most wanted Square rep (which is honestly deserved until it gets to ad hominem). Erdrick's got some things against him, but I don't see anyone thinking that he absolutely wouldn't work or even that he's unlikely.

 

[Icewolff92]

I agree that speculation should be lighter, but with that said, I don't see what's so extreme about this. I've seen a lot of people being way more extreme against my most wanted Square rep (which is honestly deserved until it gets to ad hominem). Erdrick's got some things against him, but I don't see anyone thinking that he absolutely wouldn't work or even that he's unlikely.

Yeah.. I can admit that I was a bit too dark within this argue. Do I stand what I said? Sure.. but I could have worded it better.

 

[TheYungLink]

I think that either Geno or Banjo are getting in because Ovaltine has suffered enough. That's good enough evidence for me.

 

[Teeb147]

Exactly. It's why I think Erdrick has a reasonable chance. I think he would easily be worth the risk, but I can't assume that either. That's not a fair way to look at it, after all.

I tend to look at characters as "they have a chance from 1% to 99%" as well. As in, no locks(Inklings are the only one I could legitimately call a lock, with the rest varied). There's a pretty tiny list I'd throw at 0%, and that starts and ends with non-game 3rd parties. After a lot of the issues, I'm currently looking at Edrick at around 60%. I don't have extreme confidence in him. Little reason to. The leaks are iffy. He's obviously a risky character due to many factors.


...It's literally a worldwide game. Why would selling well in one region be good enough for them? They want the game to sell well to every region possible. Otherwise why even release it outside of Japan? It makes a ton of sense from their viewpoint to get sales worldwide, since that's their target demographic. They are not just targeting Japan here.

Why do you think they're advertising DQ harder as is in the West? So it does better there. It's supposed to be a worldwide series, but has low sales in the West. That's not something they like, obviously.

There's nothing wrong with speculation as long as people aren't attacking each other. It's fine. People have tons of different viewpoints. There hasn't been a real issue here I've noticed(or at least one I would be able to do anything about specifically, as I'm involved in this debate. So if I saw an issue, I'd let another moderator handle it as I could be unintentionally biased).

I agree that speculation should be lighter, but with that said, I don't see what's so extreme about this. I've seen a lot of people being way more extreme against my most wanted Square rep (which is honestly deserved until it gets to ad hominem). Erdrick's got some things against him, but I don't see anyone thinking that he absolutely wouldn't work or even that he's unlikely.

I just meant that the points get exaggerated. I'm not saying anyone is doing something wrong. Just to strive for a better environment and talks that everyone enjoy more, when possible.

 

[Ovaltine]

I think that either Geno or Banjo are getting in because Ovaltine has suffered enough. That's good enough evidence for me.

I'm going to send Nintendo, Square, and Microsoft my tears in a bottle and no one can stop me

(Also if Geno got in the pass, Erdrick probably wouldn't, which would mean I'd still suffer. The toilet paper looms overhead.)

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

I'm going to send Nintendo, Square, and Microsoft my tears in a bottle and no one can stop me

(Also if Geno got in the pass, Erdrick probably wouldn't, which would mean I'd still suffer. The toilet paper looms overhead.)

Well at least your suffering would be short term and over-ridden by joy at least.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm going to send Nintendo, Square, and Microsoft my tears in a bottle and no one can stop me

(Also if Geno got in the pass, Erdrick probably wouldn't, which would mean I'd still suffer. The toilet paper looms overhead.)

Honestly, I thought you were a puppet, not a house. Why would anyone want to TP you?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I never actually considered Erdrick at all till the leaks came by.

He was in my top 5 most wanted, but I never really thought he was likely. I generally don't put any faith in leaks, but I certainly WANT these to be true.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He was in my top 5 most wanted, but I never really thought he was likely. I generally don't put any faith in leaks, but I certainly WANT these to be true.

I feel like you missed why I said that. XD

Anyway, a lot of characters I don't consider likely/or at all. Shulk I didn't know who he was. Or Joker. I never thought we'd get a generic enemy at any point(but I was always fine with one, though part of that is that's what the Pokemon felt like to me, so it was already inevitable to me we'd get more generic Monsters besides Pokemon. Though only some of the Pokemon are generic. Charizard, Lucario, Pikachu, and Mewtwo felt characterized to me, while the rest felt very generic overall with basic personalities. Jigglypuff is borderline).

 

[Ovaltine]

Honestly, I thought you were a puppet, not a house. Why would anyone want to TP you?

Well, wood houses are a thing. Maybe someone experimented with a few too many Dizzy Dials and a mix-up occurred.

Actually, wait... that would be me, because I'm TPing myself.

Oh. Hm. I think I should reevaluate my life choices.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Definitely not as niche as Persona, no. It may be niche in the West, but the fact that it's a phenomenon in the East says a lot. Persona has pretty equal-standing worldwide by comparison.


If Erdrick doesn't make it to Smash, I am going to eat a sheet of toilet paper.

The trees tremble outside.

My name is The Lorax and I speak for the trees.

The trees say to leave them alone young lady.

Anyone has seen Detective Pikachu and if so, what did you think about it?

I did and it was... Super effective.

look I really loved the movie

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, wood houses are a thing. Maybe someone experimented with a few too many Dizzy Dials and a mix-up occurred.

Actually, wait... that would be me, because I'm TPing myself.

Oh. Hm. I think I should reevaluate my life choices.

I wish I could find a good joke that would end with the punchline "Wood you cut it out?"

I also hope whatever SE character we get we get other neat costumes, including past ones. Well, if it's Sora, we might not get any SE content, since that's a Disney character ownership-wise, but I could still see the Chocobo Hat and Geno costume returning. Maybe the other members of the Seven Squares are costumes?

 

[shinhed-echi]

I'm not even going to bother to try to pick this apart entirely. Because there's a lot of huge flaws in what you said.

First, yes, the situation is dire because it doesn't matter if Nintendo likes promoting DQ or not. It wouldn't be the inherent causation of using Erdrick. He is still unknown in the West. This is where the comparison to Lucas isn't good. If Lucas was first going to get in as DLC, he'd be very risky. But because Nintendo owns him, they don't spend a giant amount of money to acquire the character. This is the opposite for Erdrick. He's absolutely more risky than Corrin, who was already risky to begin with. What you completely removed in context, and a very important point, is that Fire Emblem is far more mainstream than Dragon Quest is as a whole. This means a FE character wouldn't be as "surprising" or nearly as risky. I agree the choice for a 6th FE character is a problem too, but that wasn't even remotely the point I was getting at. Which again, you entirely ignored. I didn't bring up those points because there was a reason Corrin also sold overall fairly well. The risk paid off because they at least were using a 1st party franchise. If it didn't pay off, it'd be a fairly small loss compared to the huge amount of licensing needed. That was the actual point I was getting at. I didn't mention licensing yet, so I can see why that was misunderstood. I should've specified that more. However, the fact you keep cutting out pieces of my post to completely read over the point is kind of an issue here.

"(though a decent amount of sales, but being yet another Fire Emblem character means people at least knew what the series was far more. Fire Emblem is more mainstream in the West than DQ is by far. One is definitely not niche in comparison)" was a pretty important point being made. I was not even getting at why Corrin was an actual problem in itself. I didn't list the other stuff because it wasn't relevant to the actual point I was making. The point I was even making is how he was not risky, not why he was an arguably bad pick. I don't know if you misunderstood, but please stop cherrypicking my posts. That's not fair and vastly paints my argument different from what it actually is.

I'm not going to argue whether Persona is more niche or not. But that wasn't the comparison I was making. What I was saying that DQ was niche in the West, but also that when it came to literal whos, the DLC rosters also came from either a more mainstream franchise(Fire Emblem) or were a veteran with a huge amount of fan demand(I did not entirely mention the fan demand part, so my bad on that). I definitely didn't say a lot of this clear enough, and I apologize for that.

I won't go into the reasons why Corrin wasn't popular, though. That had nothing to actually do with what I said. But I will say you beyond misread my point about Random Encounters. Unless you were literally just saying "here's something you didn't say about it" like with the Corrin thing(though again, I wasn't actually making a point about why Corrin was bad, but why he was risky. The other points you mentioned are absolutely true, too. I just didn't see it as majorly relevant to the point of it being risky either. But yeah, I can see where you're coming from with Erdrick supposed being more acceptable than Corrin. I disagree, of course), it looked more like you were making a snide comment while missing that I was praising their updates to the random encounter formula. I admit the way I went about it was backhanded praise, but it looks like the point was missed. So I'll say it a bit more clearly; DQ got more popular because they updated how Random Encounters work. I like that it helped the series do better, even if I prefer the old style.

I hope that clears up where the confusion was. Cause I definitely said some confusing points and I apologize for that.

It really wasn't towards you directly. More of a call out to a lot of poor comparisons since 1st parties and 3rd parties are entirely different beasts for DLC. Was more of a general statement. I didn't even reply to you earlier either. I guess you could consider it that it looked like I was throwing arguments you made into there. I apologize for the misunderstanding of that too.

The duality of tone in this post makes my head spin a bit, but I know there’s no I’ll intent in you.

I’m sorry if I seem to be cherry picking, but it’s a loooong post you got there, and since I know it was partly and indirectly not quoting me, I went for the biggest flaws.
But let’s get the things I agree with you out of the way first, ok?

- Yes, Erdrick is a bigger gamble than Lucas and Marth because it’s no surprise to anyone that Square Enix was hard to deal with... for Cloud at least. Dragon Quest is under a different management, circumstances MAY not be the same. (After all, there are three games where Mario and DQ characters crossover).

- Fire Emblem is more mainstream in the west.
Yes, and it should be. Also, it started somewhere. And it started with Melee.

And that’s it. Off to the rest:

I jumped in on your reasoning for Corrin being hated because it’s pretty much benching on he only (or biggest) reason to keep Erdrick away.
But since it’s now clear that being unknown was the least of its problems (and not a real issue if we look at every other unknown character in the history of Smash)

Sorry if I’m picking random points, I’ll try to address a few more. I really don’t have that much tine, I get interrupted a lot, and I lose track of what I was going to say.

When you say people at least knew Corrin was from FE, and you say that like it’s a good thing. I know it may not be the majority, but plenty people would prefer a brand new IP than another FE character. So I guess I have beef with that generalization.

I want to emphasize a bit more on the Persona comparison that I WAS making (so please don’t dismiss it) because since Joker happened in spite of that, Erdrick too could happen, in spite of that as well.

I already forgot a major point I was going to bring up, since I can’t have 5 minutes of peace over here, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Point is, DQ having sold almost exactly half what Final Fantasy has sold, puts it, imo, in a middle ground where it’s not as popular nor as niche.
Hopefully that changes soon when E3 markets it in full force.

Well, that’s about it with the time and focus I have right now.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The duality of tone in this post makes my head spin a bit, but I know there’s no I’ll intent in you.

I’m sorry if I seem to be cherry picking, but it’s a loooong post you got there, and since I know it was partly and indirectly not quoting me, I went for the biggest flaws.
But let’s get the things I agree with you out of the way first, ok?

- Yes, Erdrick is a bigger gamble than Lucas and Marth because it’s no surprise to anyone that Square Enix was hard to deal with... for Cloud at least. Dragon Quest is under a different management, circumstances MAY not be the same. (After all, there are three games where Mario and DQ characters crossover).

- Fire Emblem is more mainstream in the west.
Yes, and it should be. Also, it started somewhere. And it started with Melee.

And that’s it. Off to the rest:

I jumped in on your reasoning for Corrin being hated because it’s pretty much benching on he only (or biggest) reason to keep Erdrick away.
But since it’s now clear that being unknown was the least of its problems (and not a real issue if we look at every other unknown character in the history of Smash)

Sorry if I’m picking random points, I’ll try to address a few more. I really don’t have that much tine, I get interrupted a lot, and I lose track of what I was going to say.

When you say people at least knew Corrin was from FE, and you say that like it’s a good thing. I know it may not be the majority, but plenty people would prefer a brand new IP than another FE character. So I guess I have beef with that generalization.

I want to emphasize a bit more on the Persona comparison that I WAS making (so please don’t dismiss it) because since Joker happened in spite of that, Erdrick too could happen, in spite of that as well.

I already forgot a major point I was going to bring up, since I can’t have 5 minutes of peace over here, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Point is, DQ having sold almost exactly half what Final Fantasy has sold, puts it, imo, in a middle ground where it’s not as popular nor as niche.
Hopefully that changes soon when E3 markets it in full force.

Well, that’s about it with the time and focus I have right now.

Nah, that explains it rather well. What I mean for Joker is that he had the advantage of being known worldwide, so I wouldn't hold that as a good thing for Erdrick. What advantage Joker shows is that DQ is definitely a contender for Smash content, though.

I think DQ deserves to be in Smash. I just don't consider Erdrick the best possible choice inherently. He's a solid pick, no doubt about that. But there's other solid picks that can easily be better if they care more about risk than just "the most popular hero".

One thing I do remember is something about DQ having a ton of IP owners. I think Erdrick might require more than Slime at least? Though I don't think that would be much of an issue.

And ouch on the 5 minutes of peace thing. Hope things are alright.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, that explains it rather well. What I mean for Joker is that he had the advantage of being worldwide, so I wouldn't hold that as a good thing for Erdrick. What advantage Joker shows is that DQ is definitely a contender for Smash content, though.

I think DQ deserves to be in Smash. I just don't consider Erdrick the best possible choice inherently. He's a solid pick, no doubt about that. But there's other solid picks that can easily be better if they care more about risk than just "the most popular hero".

One thing I do remember is something about DQ having a ton of IP owners. I think Erdrick might require more than Slime at least? Though I don't think that would be much of an issue.

And ouch on the 5 minutes of peace thing. Hope things are alright.

Regarding the rights there's only 3 people that really matter - Yuji Horii (owns and manages the IP itself), Akira Toriyama (owns all the artwork), and Koichi Sugiyama (owns all the music).
Regardless of whoever a potential DQ character would be, they're going to be involved no matter what.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Regarding the rights there's only 3 people that really matter - Yuji Horii (owns and manages the IP itself), Akira Toriyama (owns all the artwork), and Koichi Sugiyama (owns all the music).
Regardless of whoever a potential DQ character would be, they're going to be involved no matter what.

Did Akira Toriyama also design Slime too? I mean, I see a lot of characters in DBZ resemble monsters too, but I don't remember anything very similar to Slime itself in the DB series.

Like, the design for many of the dragons from GT are so obviously Dragon Quest it's not even funny.

 

[Deleted member]

Did Akira Toriyama also design Slime too? I mean, I see a lot of characters in DBZ resemble monsters too, but I don't remember anything very similar to Slime itself in the DB series.

Like, the design for many of the dragons from GT are so obviously Dragon Quest it's not even funny.

Toriyama does pretty much all of the artwork and designs for each game, and that does include all the monsters too. So yeah he did

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Toriyama does pretty much all of the artwork and designs for each game, and that does include all the monsters too. So yeah he did

I can't remember why I heard of 2 other ones. Maybe I was thinking of the Dragon Ball licenses instead. That said, 3 companies still matters regardless. Though I thought it mattered more depending upon who. Well, that's not a relevant factor for which one to choose. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, Rock The Dragon!

 

[Deleted member]

I can't remember why I heard of 2 other ones. Maybe I was thinking of the Dragon Ball licenses instead. That said, 3 companies still matters regardless. Though I thought it mattered more depending upon who. Well, that's not a relevant factor for which one to choose. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, Rock The Dragon!

No problem, a lot of misinformation is thrown around to make the licensing situation look significantly worse than it actually is. It's certainly not ideal to work with, but still, you get what i'm saying lol
(DRAGON DRAGON, ROCK THE DRAGON)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No problem, a lot of misinformation is thrown around to make the licensing situation look significantly worse than it actually is. It's certainly not ideal to work with, but still, you get what i'm saying lol
(DRAGON DRAGON, ROCK THE DRAGON)

I will say I don't enjoy Dragon Soul as much, but they're both good themes. I found the later themes that was just instrumental to not be as fun. Also The Final Chapters has a great theme song. I forget what the exact name of the song, but it might be its basic version "Fight it out!"

So are you basically named after a Babble, or is there an actual different kind of liquidy Metal Slime?

 

[perfectchaos83]

A lot of this back and forth is rather pointless. I think it's been made rather clear that the Fighter's pass is not being made with the Smash fanbase in mind, the entire Fighter's pass as a whole is a gamble in an attempt to reach new demographics. You should not be looking at this on what you personally feel is likely to sell to the masses, but rather what appeals more to fans of different properties that have little overlap with the Smash fanbase. If The goal is to entice DQ fans (let's be honest here, The Erdrick rumors have greatly shown that the DQ fanbase does not have a decently sized presence in the Smash fanbase), than Slime isn't exactly going to cut it. It's no different than a Moogle or a Chocobo and that's the reason we got Cloud. Cloud means more to the FF fanbase than Moogles or Chocobos are. Slime doesn't have the same oomph that Erdrick does to DQ fans, at least when it comes to a fighting game.

 

[Deleted member]

I will say I don't enjoy Dragon Soul as much, but they're both good themes. I found the later themes that was just instrumental to not be as fun. Also The Final Chapters has a great theme song. I forget what the exact name of the song, but it might be its basic version "Fight it out!"

So are you basically named after a Babble, or is there an actual different kind of liquidy Metal Slime?

I actually much prefer Dragon Soul, the energy in it feels great to listen to.
And, there is a liquidy metal slime, being a step above regular metal slimes and providing way more EXP. There's actually a humongous amount of different slimes across all the different games including the spinoffs like Monsters.

A lot of this back and forth is rather pointless. I think it's been made rather clear that the Fighter's pass is not being made with the Smash fanbase in mind, the entire Fighter's pass as a whole is a gamble in an attempt to reach new demographics. You should not be looking at this on what you personally feel is likely to sell to the masses, but rather what appeals more to fans of different properties that have little overlap with the Smash fanbase. If The goal is to entice DQ fans (let's be honest here, The Erdrick rumors have greatly shown that the DQ fanbase does not have a decently sized presence in the Smash fanbase), than Slime isn't exactly going to cut it. It's no different than a Moogle or a Chocobo and that's the reason we got Cloud. Cloud means more to the FF fanbase than Moogles or Chocobos are. Slime doesn't have the same oomph that Erdrick does to DQ fans, at least when it comes to a fighting game.

At this point I'm just keeping a wait-and-see mentality. As long as we get any DQ character I'll be personally satisfied, but anything can happen. I trust Sakurai.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A lot of this back and forth is rather pointless. I think it's been made rather clear that the Fighter's pass is not being made with the Smash fanbase in mind, the entire Fighter's pass as a whole is a gamble in an attempt to reach new demographics. You should not be looking at this on what you personally feel is likely to sell to the masses, but rather what appeals more to fans of different properties that have little overlap with the Smash fanbase. If The goal is to entice DQ fans (let's be honest here, The Erdrick rumors have greatly shown that the DQ fanbase does not have a decently sized presence in the Smash fanbase), than Slime isn't exactly going to cut it. It's no different than a Moogle or a Chocobo and that's the reason we got Cloud. Cloud means more to the FF fanbase than Moogles or Chocobos are. Slime doesn't have the same oomph that Erdrick does to DQ fans, at least when it comes to a fighting game.

No, it's pretty different. Cloud wasn't just the most popular, he was the most popular worldwide. Never mind Cloud has become a mascot for the series as well.

Slime is still the de facto mascot and more recognizable worldwide. Cloud was already on the same level of recognition of Moogle and Chocobo, the animal mascots(but not the hard mascots of the franchise, which is what Slime is to DQ). These comparisons don't work because it's a different situation altogether. Being the same company doesn't much matter. Erdrick is also not as popular worldwide as Cloud is, which muddies how much real popularity he has compared to other DQ characters. It's not some obvious decision whatsoever. Not when he's competing with major contenders from his own franchise. Cloud wasn't exactly competing with a single animal mascot, but at most we saw him competing with very few other protagonists. Who were also way recognizable worldwide. Which is still an issue Erdrick has. He isn't recognizable worldwide. This will always hurt his chances. Also, I highly doubt they aren't going for worldwide sales overall with DLC. That's literally the main demographic. It doesn't matter if it's casual or hardcore(which I remember it being casual). It matters that they're guaranteed sales worldwide. Worldwide recognition is always going to be a less risky move no matter how you cut it(again, that does not mean it's the "best" move, of course).

I actually much prefer Dragon Soul, the energy in it feels great to listen to.
And, there is a liquidy metal slime, being a step above regular metal slimes and providing way more EXP. There's actually a humongous amount of different slimes across all the different games including the spinoffs like Monsters.

At this point I'm just keeping a wait-and-see mentality. As long as we get any DQ character I'll be personally satisfied, but anything can happen. I trust Sakurai.

I didn't know of the Luiqidy Metal Slime. Huh. I know there's a ton of Slimes(far more than the canon Heroes, heh).

I'd be satisfied if we had DQ costumes alone.

 

[perfectchaos83]

No, it's pretty different. Cloud wasn't just the most popular, he was the most popular worldwide. Never mind Cloud has become a mascot for the series as well.

Slime is still the de facto mascot and more recognizable worldwide. Cloud was already on the same level of recognition of Moogle and Chocobo, the animal mascots(but not the hard mascots of the franchise, which is what Slime is to DQ). These comparisons don't work because it's a different situation altogether. Being the same company doesn't much matter. Erdrick is also not as popular worldwide as Cloud is, which muddies how much real popularity he has compared to other DQ characters. It's not some obvious decision whatsoever. Not when he's competing with major contenders from his own franchise. Cloud wasn't exactly competing with a single animal mascot, but at most we saw him competing with very few other protagonists. Who were also way recognizable worldwide. Which is still an issue Erdrick has. He isn't recognizable worldwide. This will always hurt his chances. Also, I highly doubt they aren't going for worldwide sales overall with DLC. That's literally the main demographic. It doesn't matter if it's casual or hardcore(which I remember it being casual). It matters that they're guaranteed sales worldwide. Worldwide recognition is always going to be a less risky move no matter how you cut it(again, that does not mean it's the "best" move, of course).

A casual market isn't going to spend $400 for a single character. This is the main metric I'm going by in my predictions as it's Nintendo's goal to expand the demographics for not only Smash, but the Switch as well. This is particularly why I think that each franchise represented in the DLC will be at or around Persona's level worldwide, which includes DQ. There's a reason I brought up DQ fans in my post. Slime is neat, but it's not something they want in a Fighting game, Same reason Slime isn't playable in DQ Heroes. At the end of the day, they want heroes and not monsters, despite whatever "iconic" status the general public puts on Slime.