[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[Teeb147]

The duality of tone in this post makes my head spin a bit, but I know there’s no I’ll intent in you.

I’m sorry if I seem to be cherry picking, but it’s a loooong post you got there, and since I know it was partly and indirectly not quoting me, I went for the biggest flaws.
But let’s get the things I agree with you out of the way first, ok?

- Yes, Erdrick is a bigger gamble than Lucas and Marth because it’s no surprise to anyone that Square Enix was hard to deal with... for Cloud at least. Dragon Quest is under a different management, circumstances MAY not be the same. (After all, there are three games where Mario and DQ characters crossover).

- Fire Emblem is more mainstream in the west.
Yes, and it should be. Also, it started somewhere. And it started with Melee.

And that’s it. Off to the rest:

I jumped in on your reasoning for Corrin being hated because it’s pretty much benching on he only (or biggest) reason to keep Erdrick away.
But since it’s now clear that being unknown was the least of its problems (and not a real issue if we look at every other unknown character in the history of Smash)

Sorry if I’m picking random points, I’ll try to address a few more. I really don’t have that much tine, I get interrupted a lot, and I lose track of what I was going to say.

When you say people at least knew Corrin was from FE, and you say that like it’s a good thing. I know it may not be the majority, but plenty people would prefer a brand new IP than another FE character. So I guess I have beef with that generalization.

I want to emphasize a bit more on the Persona comparison that I WAS making (so please don’t dismiss it) because since Joker happened in spite of that, Erdrick too could happen, in spite of that as well.

I already forgot a major point I was going to bring up, since I can’t have 5 minutes of peace over here, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Point is, DQ having sold almost exactly half what Final Fantasy has sold, puts it, imo, in a middle ground where it’s not as popular nor as niche.
Hopefully that changes soon when E3 markets it in full force.

Well, that’s about it with the time and focus I have right now.

I havent read everything, but I saw that you said Square Enix was hard to deal with for Cloud. And I'm not sure that's the case, SE may be stingy on a few things but that doesn't mean with everything, we even have an interview with sakurai where he talks about how it went with them.

He was talking all about Cloud and then mentions that negotiations for third-party characters tend to go smoothly, so I think that says a lot. And then he goes to mention that he was granted a lot of freedom in designing cloud, and that they mostly just gave hard feedback.

"
Sakurai: Those third-party characters are huge icons of their respective companies, so such an opportunity is hard to come by. That being said, now that Smash has grown into a well-known franchise, the creators recognize the merits of allowing us to use their characters, so negotiations have tended to go rather smoothly.


—Nevertheless, it’s so impressive you were able to bring Cloud into Smash.


Sakurai: I’m pretty impressed myself (laughs).


—Did Square Enix make any requests?


Sakurai: They supervised the development, providing detailed feedback and harsh criticism, but they didn’t make much in the way of requests. We have our own format for designing content in Smash, and they were gracious enough to grant us considerable freedom when devising Cloud’s attacks, animations, and Special Moves.
"

Anyway, just thought I'd share it in case someone hadn't seen it.

 

[Deleted member]

Something worth to mention when it comes to the dilemma of Nintendo and royalties is the fact that Nintendo has a strong and huge financial power, maybe more than many even imagine.

It is possible that if some third parties had to ask Nintendo money to use their stuff, the latter could easily afford most of the scenarios without losing worrying amounts of money.

If money was a problem for Nintendo, we would be hearing more about stuff similar to the development and scrapped content of PSASBR.

 

[Ovaltine]

Sakurai: Those third-party characters are huge icons of their respective companies, so such an opportunity is hard to come by. That being said, now that Smash has grown into a well-known franchise, the creators recognize the merits of allowing us to use their characters, so negotiations have tended to go rather smoothly.

That does sound very good for Erdrick then. As has been said in this thread, that kind of remark sounds good for everyone but Geno, honestly. Unlike the other Square reps, apart from some pennies, Square doesn't have anything to gain with Geno. There aren't many merits at all for Square to use Geno.

square please it doesn't need to be in smash i just want my son back :')

 

[osby]

Something worth to mention when it comes to the dilemma of Nintendo and royalties is the fact that Nintendo has a strong and huge financial power, maybe more than many even imagine.

It is possible that if some third parties had to ask Nintendo money to use their stuff, the latter could easily afford most of the scenarios without losing worrying amounts of money.

If money was a problem for Nintendo, we would be hearing more about stuff similar to the development and scrapped content of PSASBR.

Nintendo's monerary power is not limitless by no means. I don't think DLC development team's budget is small, but it's not like they'll pour all the money Sakurai wants into Smash.

First character we got was from a relatively small and eager company, just for reference.

 

[Nazyrus]

I know you're joking, but if Noctis makes it to Smash Ultimate and is the second Square rep despite being in Tekken 7 at the same time... I would be so over the moon! As much as I love Noctis in Tekken, he just fits more in Smash. Not to mention as everyone can tell he's my favorite Square character and aside from Ken my favorite video game character. I mean realistically he has like 2% chance, but if it did happen I would be so happy ha!

Edit:

Found this cool picture of Cloud and Noctis, thought id share

View attachment 222797

Sick picture! Never seen it before, love it.

 

[Teeb147]

Something worth to mention when it comes to the dilemma of Nintendo and royalties is the fact that Nintendo has a strong and huge financial power, maybe more than many even imagine.

It is possible that if some third parties had to ask Nintendo money to use their stuff, the latter could easily afford most of the scenarios without losing worrying amounts of money.

If money was a problem for Nintendo, we would be hearing more about stuff similar to the development and scrapped content of PSASBR.

Companies would give so much just to get a character in smash. I don't think they would try to hard ball nintendo very much.
But yeah nintendo has some freedom to try things.

That does sound very good for Erdrick then. As has been said in this thread, that kind of remark sounds good for everyone but Geno, honestly. Unlike the other Square reps, apart from some pennies, Square doesn't have anything to gain with Geno. There aren't many merits at all for Square to use Geno.

square please it doesn't need to be in smash i just want my son back :')

I still think that Geno has a good chance, just not as a main dlc pick (that's just my view tho). I think that he could easily come as a secondary addition that sakurai would've gotten for later.

It's already a big gain for SE to put in a character that'll benefit them. Even Promotion is worth a lot. Some companies can spend millions on advertisement. If Sakurai would've wanted geno at the same time, I don't see it as that far-fetched. I really dont know what the chances are though, just that I still see it as a possibility.

 

[A.G.L.]

I havent read everything, but I saw that you said Square Enix was hard to deal with for Cloud. And I'm not sure that's the case, SE may be stingy on a few things but that doesn't mean with everything, we even have an interview with sakurai where he talks about how it went with them.

He was talking all about Cloud and then mentions that negotiations for third-party characters tend to go smoothly, so I think that says a lot. And then he goes to mention that he was granted a lot of freedom in designing cloud, and that they mostly just gave hard feedback.

"
Sakurai: Those third-party characters are huge icons of their respective companies, so such an opportunity is hard to come by. That being said, now that Smash has grown into a well-known franchise, the creators recognize the merits of allowing us to use their characters, so negotiations have tended to go rather smoothly.


—Nevertheless, it’s so impressive you were able to bring Cloud into Smash.


Sakurai: I’m pretty impressed myself (laughs).


—Did Square Enix make any requests?


Sakurai: They supervised the development, providing detailed feedback and harsh criticism, but they didn’t make much in the way of requests. We have our own format for designing content in Smash, and they were gracious enough to grant us considerable freedom when devising Cloud’s attacks, animations, and Special Moves.
"

Anyway, just thought I'd share it in case someone hadn't seen it.

If I’m not mistaken this was an interview from Smash Wii U. And I heard that trying to get Cloud into Smash Ultimate on the other hand was no easy feat, as Square was difficult to work with.

So that might mean Square might also be difficult to work with when it comes to whoever was chosen for the Smash Ultimate DLC. One thing about Square is yes they aren’t stingy about everything, but they always make sure they get the best end of the deal.

 

[Teeb147]

If I’m not mistaken this was an interview from Smash Wii U. And I heard that trying to get Cloud into Smash Ultimate on the other hand was no easy feat, as Square was difficult to work with.

So that might mean Square might also be difficult to work with when it comes to whoever was chosen for the Smash Ultimate DLC. One thing about Square is yes they aren’t stingy about everything, but they always make sure they get the best end of the deal.

As far as I know it's just people saying or assuming that because they've been stingy with some other things. It's not worth making assumptions just on what random people say.

If you have info from some news or something regarding ultimate you can bring it up.

 

[Deleted member]

If I’m not mistaken this was an interview from Smash Wii U. And I heard that trying to get Cloud into Smash Ultimate on the other hand was no easy feat, as Square was difficult to work with.

So that might mean Square might also be difficult to work with when it comes to whoever was chosen for the Smash Ultimate DLC. One thing about Square is yes they aren’t stingy about everything, but they always make sure they get the best end of the deal.

I think the difference in this regard is simple, Cloud was DLC in 4 so it was easier due to being DLC and difficult in Ultimate due to being part of the main roster from the start. We still have yet to see them in regards Ultimate DLC.

 

[A.G.L.]

As far as I know it's just people saying or assuming that because they've been stingy with some other things. It's not worth making assumptions just on what random people say.

If you have info from some news or something regarding ultimate you can bring it up.

From what I understand it was from Tansut himself. I’ll see if I can find the quote. If not I apologize.

I think the difference in this regard is simple, Cloud was DLC in 4 so it was easier due to being DLC and difficult in Ultimate due to being part of the main roster from the start. We still have yet to see them in regards Ultimate DLC.

Oh I agree, but people downplay Square’s importance in the DLC a lot. As much as I would want say Noctis or Sora/Roxas. I won’t deny that there are factors that stand in their way and the major part of it is Square. We can not downplay Square’s previous patterns of dealing with other companies just because they could put in a character we want. When analyzing this situation we have to look past want, and look at it objectively.

Right now it’s difficult to say who they will choose, but saying Square will not be stingy in the DLC deal is 5-10% chance. They have been stingy in all their past deals of with other companies. Whether it’s Ubisoft, Capcom, Namco or even Nintendo. The only time they are not stingy is when they are dealing amongst themselves or they are the ones in charge.

So looking at this objectively all top runners for the second Square spot have handicaps as iv stated before. Unlike Cloud who was globally known and can arguably be one of the faces of Square Enix. When people see Cloud they immediately know who he is, and which company he belongs to. However the top runners are not like Cloud they all have something against them.

Erdrick:

There’s no doubt that Dragon Quest is one of the oldest JRPG’s. It helped set the stage for other JRPG’s, there’s a reason it’s known as the grandfather of JRPG’s. It popularity in Japan, is extremely high. That being said 75% of Dragon Quest 11’s sales came from Japan. Outside of Slime the mascot of Dragon Quest, most people in the West have no idea who the characters of the series are. In fact had it not been for Edrick rumors and leaks most Western Smash fans probably wouldn’t know who Edrick is. Erdrick may not make both short term and long term income globally, and this is no doubt a gamble financially. Square as we have seen is not a risk taker, they have not made a move like Nintendo has with Fire Emblem in that they push a series that isn’t a sure thing globally. All of their recent cross promotion’s are globally popular characters. For Square to agree to put in Erdrick would be to break their previous patterns of cross promotions. It’s possible that Square might agree to this, but this would be a new direction for them.

Geno:

Geno is the odd one in this. He rides the waves of nostalgia and fan loyalty. In many ways he’s the dark horse of this list. Square has unfortunately treated this puppet with not a lot of love. That being said given Nintendo’s and Square’s recent partnerships. Square may allow Nintendo to put Geno in as a sign of good faith and to please the fans. Still Geno has not had a game in years, and it’s clear he is not a priority in Square’s eyes. Also we cannot ignore that Square loves cross promotion. The fact that Geno cannot provide this, is what hurts his chances the most. However, as Disney has shown us, nostalgia sells so you never know he just might make it.

Sephiroth:

One of the biggest villains of all time. And arguably the most famous villain that Square has. Most of the factors that were in Cloud’s favor are also in Sephiroth’s favor. Especially with the Final Fantasy 7 remake around the corner. The only handicap is that Smash has not put in two 3rd party characters from the same game that are not echo’s. This would be a first and would open the floodgates to series like Sonic, Megaman etc getting another unique character in the future. This could be reason Nintendo might not want to do this, as they might want to represent more game series. Sephiroth as a character has a lot going for him, however Nintendo just might not want to add two characters from the same series.

Sora:

Involves Disney which can be a huge obstacle if Disney wants to be greedy as they own Sora. That being said Disney lately has gotten along with Nintendo and are even letting them be the sole publishers for Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3. Also if Disney did get on board and all three parties were to agree, Sora has the largest potential for short term and long term income. Despite all of this, Disney just might be too big of an obstacle.

When we see the characters in this type of lens it’s clear all of them have something going for them and something hindering them. Outside of leaks and association with data mines, none of them are a sure thing or even 90% likely. In reality they all have a shot, though some have higher percentages of being likely. However in the end we have to consider this from a business stand point. Which character will perform the greatest globally. Which will generate highest income short term and long term for all parties involved. Which character will help promote the game series they are from, and bring in new fans. And finally which character while catering to fan demand, can help increase profits for Smash Ultimate by bringing in new fans to the series. These are the lens that we need to look through.
Personally I think they all have a shot, but none are guaranteed.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A.G.L. Are you not listing some of the Square Seven because you don't think they stand a chance? I noticed Crono isn't on there. You more or less covered Slime at least. And I forgot what the last of the Square Seven was; Erdrick, Crono, Slime, Sephiroth, Geno, Sora are who I can remember.

 

[Deleted member]

A.G.L. Are you not listing some of the Square Seven because you don't think they stand a chance? I noticed Crono isn't on there. You more or less covered Slime at least. And I forgot what the last of the Square Seven was; Erdrick, Crono, Slime, Sephiroth, Geno, Sora are who I can remember.

They are in the thread poll, missing one is Luminary from DQ XI :b

 

[MajoraMan28]

If I’m not mistaken this was an interview from Smash Wii U. And I heard that trying to get Cloud into Smash Ultimate on the other hand was no easy feat, as Square was difficult to work with.

So that might mean Square might also be difficult to work with when it comes to whoever was chosen for the Smash Ultimate DLC. One thing about Square is yes they aren’t stingy about everything, but they always make sure they get the best end of the deal.

The only difficulty was having SE content in a base game not developed by them. This idea that they were a hassle to deal with this time has absolutely no basis on fact, unless proven otherwise. I haven't seen a single verifiable source proving this.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They are in the thread poll, missing one is Luminary from DQ XI :b

Of course I fail to just look up. XD

 

[Ovaltine]

Geno:

Geno is the odd one in this. He rides the waves of nostalgia and fan loyalty. In many ways he’s the dark horse of this list. Square has unfortunately treated this puppet with not a lot of love. That being said given Nintendo’s and Square’s recent partnerships. Square may allow Nintendo to put Geno in as a sign of good faith and to please the fans. Still Geno has not had a game in years, and it’s clear he is not a priority in Square’s eyes. Also we cannot ignore that Square loves cross promotion. The fact that Geno cannot provide this, is what hurts his chances the most. However, as Disney has shown us, nostalgia sells so you never know he just might make it.

Considering Nintendo has his rights for Ultimate by way of the spirit and (presumably) the Mii costume, though, Geno does have his foot partway into the door. The fact that Cloud was so lacking in content in the base while Geno and Mallow had spirits is what's interesting to me. I don't think he's in the Fighter's Pass (that would be Erdrick), but... who knows? Compared to the other characters, Geno would be easier copyright-wise and already has a head start. If we get more seasons, I'd think his chances would become much greater, even if Square doesn't have much love for him. I honestly don't think they care either which way, a double-edged sword for his chances. (They don't care enough to go for him, but they don't care enough to go out of their way against him either. He might be more of a, "Just negotiate it with us, but otherwise, he's a Mario character, do what you want," sort of deal because of his being such a huge outlier.)

 

[A.G.L.]

A.G.L. Are you not listing some of the Square Seven because you don't think they stand a chance? I noticed Crono isn't on there. You more or less covered Slime at least. And I forgot what the last of the Square Seven was; Erdrick, Crono, Slime, Sephiroth, Geno, Sora are who I can remember.

I didn’t cover Crono as I was trying to cover the most talked about Square characters for DLC vs the Square list. I won’t deny he also has a shot, I mean even Neku has a shot. They are just less likely, but I’m not involved in the decision making between Nintendo and Square so you never know. Like I said realistically all main characters of Square have a shot, it’s just that some have a higher percentage than others. However I apologize for not including Slime, Luminary, Neku and Crono in my example.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn’t cover Crono as I was trying to cover the most talked about Square characters for DLC vs the Square list. I won’t deny he also has a shot, I mean even Neku has a shot. They are just less likely, but I’m not involved in the decision making between Nintendo and Square so you never know. Like I said realistically all main characters of Square have a shot, it’s just that some have a higher percentage than others. However I apologize for not including Slime, Luminary, Neku and Crono in my example.

I was just wondering why you omitted them, that's all. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Ovaltine]

I didn’t cover Crono as I was trying to cover the most talked about Square characters for DLC vs the Square list. I won’t deny he also has a shot, I mean even Neku has a shot. They are just less likely, but I’m not involved in the decision making between Nintendo and Square so you never know. Like I said realistically all main characters of Square have a shot, it’s just that some have a higher percentage than others. However I apologize for not including Slime, Luminary, Neku and Crono in my example.

If I may, I think people are honestly sleeping hard on Luminary and that he's more likely than you think. For all we know, the male and female alt thing from Tansut is inaccurate, and we're getting Luminary instead of Erdrick. It'd more fit Square's bottom line for DLC, as well, given he's a cross-promotional pick from a recent game that is getting a re-release. Smash gets DQ's fans, DQ becomes even more popular than ever before, people can go right over to grab DQ XI S, everyone wins.

 

[Deleted member]

From what I understand it was from Tansut himself. I’ll see if I can find the quote. If not I apologize.




Oh I agree, but people downplay Square’s importance in the DLC a lot. As much as I would want say Noctis or Sora/Roxas. I won’t deny that there are factors that stand in their way and the major part of it is Square. We can not downplay Square’s previous patterns of dealing with other companies just because they could put in a character we want. When analyzing this situation we have to look past want, and look at it objectively.

Right now it’s difficult to say who they will choose, but saying Square will not be stingy in the DLC deal is 5-10% chance. They have been stingy in all their past deals of with other companies. Whether it’s Ubisoft, Capcom, Namco or even Nintendo. The only time they are not stingy is when they are dealing amongst themselves or they are the ones in charge.

So looking at this objectively all top runners for the second Square spot have handicaps as iv stated before. Unlike Cloud who was globally known and can arguably be one of the faces of Square Enix. When people see Cloud they immediately know who he is, and which company he belongs to. However the top runners are not like Cloud they all have something against them.

Erdrick:

There’s no doubt that Dragon Quest is one of the oldest JRPG’s. It helped set the stage for other JRPG’s, there’s a reason it’s known as the grandfather of JRPG’s. It popularity in Japan, is extremely high. That being said 75% of Dragon Quest 11’s sales came from Japan. Outside of Slime the mascot of Dragon Quest, most people in the West have no idea who the characters of the series are. In fact had it not been for Edrick rumors and leaks most Western Smash fans probably wouldn’t know who Edrick is. Erdrick may not make both short term and long term income globally, and this is no doubt a gamble financially. Square as we have seen is not a risk taker, they have not made a move like Nintendo has with Fire Emblem in that they push a series that isn’t a sure thing globally. All of their recent cross promotion’s are globally popular characters. For Square to agree to put in Erdrick would be to break their previous patterns of cross promotions. It’s possible that Square might agree to this, but this would be a new direction for them.

Geno:

Geno is the odd one in this. He rides the waves of nostalgia and fan loyalty. In many ways he’s the dark horse of this list. Square has unfortunately treated this puppet with not a lot of love. That being said given Nintendo’s and Square’s recent partnerships. Square may allow Nintendo to put Geno in as a sign of good faith and to please the fans. Still Geno has not had a game in years, and it’s clear he is not a priority in Square’s eyes. Also we cannot ignore that Square loves cross promotion. The fact that Geno cannot provide this, is what hurts his chances the most. However, as Disney has shown us, nostalgia sells so you never know he just might make it.

Sora:

Involves Disney which can be a huge obstacle if Disney wants to be greedy as they own Sora. That being said Disney lately has gotten along with Nintendo and are even letting them be the sole publishers for Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3. Also if Disney did get on board and all three parties were to agree, Sora has the largest potential for short term and long term income. Despite all of this, Disney just might be too big of an obstacle.

Sephiroth:

One of the biggest villains of all time. And arguably the most famous villain that Square has. Most of the factors that were in Cloud’s favor are also in Sephiroth’s favor. Especially with the Final Fantasy 7 remake around the corner. The only handicap is that Smash has not put in two 3rd party characters from the same game that are not echo’s. This would be a first and would open the floodgates to series like Sonic, Megaman etc getting another unique character in the future. This could be reason Nintendo might not want to do this, as they might want to represent more game series. Sephiroth as a character has a lot going for him, however Nintendo just might not want to add two characters from the same series.

When we see the characters in this type of lens it’s clear all of them have something going for them and something hindering them. Outside of leaks and association with data mines, none of them are a sure thing or even 90% likely. In reality they all have a shot, though some have higher percentages of being likely. However in the end we have to consider this from a business stand point. Which character will perform the greatest globally. Which will generate highest income short term and long term for all parties involved. Which character will help promote the game series they are from, and bring in new fans. And finally which character while catering to fan demand, can help increase profits for Smash Ultimate by bringing in new fans to the series. These are the lens that we need to look through.
Personally I think they all have a shot, but none are guaranteed.

Regarding Cloud, Tansut never said anything about difficulty getting Cloud back, only thing that Tansut said regarding Cloud's return was that he was pricey.

So that's all I got. Well, other than apparently Cloud was a pricey fella to get into Smash.

 

[A.G.L.]

If I may, I think people are honestly sleeping hard on Luminary and that he's more likely than you think. For all we know, the male and female alt thing from Tansut is inaccurate, and we're getting Luminary instead of Erdrick. It'd more fit Square's bottom line for DLC, as well, given he's a cross-promotional pick from a recent game that is getting a re-release. Smash gets DQ's fans, DQ becomes even more popular than ever before, people can go right over to grab DQ XI S, everyone wins.

Honestly this could be true, it’s true that the Luminary is not as popular compared to other DQ characters. However he/she is the most recent character. It would make sense if you want to push sales for Dragon Quest 11 that you put Dragon Quest 11’s protagonist. It’s just hard to say. Like Verde Coeden Scalesworth has pointed out Slime is the real face of Dragon Quest. It would make more sense to put it in. The thing is though Slime is just a regular enemy in Dragon Quest 11, so would they still choose it because of this? The problem with a Dragon Quest rep is the most notable character from the series is a regular enemy in the two recent games Dragon Quest Builders and Dragon Quest 11. The Luminary the most recent protagonist is not as much loved compared to past protagonists. And Erdrick is from Dragon Quest 3 and is not the most popular character from the series Slime is. So this creates a really weird puzzle of trying to figure out if there’s a Dragon Quest rep who best represents the series.

It’s not clear cut like Neku, Sora, etc who are the protagonists of their series and are well loved. So that’s why trying to figure out the DQ rep is difficult if you are not looking into leaks.

@Zeke The Zekenator

Ah I stand corrected about Tansut, thank you for pointing out that information I really appreciate it.

 

[Icewolff92]

If I may, I think people are honestly sleeping hard on Luminary and that he's more likely than you think. For all we know, the male and female alt thing from Tansut is inaccurate, and we're getting Luminary instead of Erdrick. It'd more fit Square's bottom line for DLC, as well, given he's a cross-promotional pick from a recent game that is getting a re-release. Smash gets DQ's fans, DQ becomes even more popular than ever before, people can go right over to grab DQ XI S, everyone wins.

What if he is right about the male and female thing, but its Byleth from Fire emblem Three Houses...

 

[ZelDan]

What if he is right about the male and female thing, but its Byleth from Fire emblem Three Houses...

If Byleth makes it into Ultimate, I'll have the same reaction as I did when Corrin made it into Smash 4:

"Oh great, I'm sure Smash forums will be fun to deal with now. >_>"

 

[A.G.L.]

What if he is right about the male and female thing, but its Byleth from Fire emblem Three Houses...

If Byleth makes it into Ultimate, I'll have the same reaction as I did when Corrin made it into Smash 4:

"Oh great, I'm sure Smash forums will be fun to deal with now. >_>"

If it turns out to be Byleth I’m sure people would have a field day being mad ha.


However, I actually think Edelgard would be really interesting if she’s part of DLC. Especially since she uses an axe and sword. If they give her a great move set she could play differently from all of the other Fire Emblem characters. That might help people not mind another FE rep.

If anyone here has played Smite, Ullr is an example of a fighting style that could work for Edelgard. He has a switch stance that changes his moves slightly depending if he’s using a bow or twin axes. Edelgard could use the same mechanics, in that she switches from axe to sword. This could be a really fun game mechanic and could make her really popular. I’m not saying shes going to be part of the DLC, but if they gave her the right kind of move set she could be fun .

 

[Namasura]

. Erdrick may not make both short term and long term income globally

I legit don't think Erdrick is a financial gamble at all, sometimes people act as if Japan was not part of the globe, but it is, and in the end, it doesn't matter if it only sells a lot due to Japan, it still sells a lot. And considering DQ sells above other third-party series which are DLC, I don't think there is a financial gamble or that finances are a point against Erdrick or DQ.

 

[ZelDan]

Some characters might sell better/worse compared to others, though I don't think any character will really be a financial risk and will sell well. A large amount of people probably already bought the fighter's pass, and many people probably just want a full roster.

 

[A.G.L.]

I legit don't think Erdrick is a financial gamble at all, sometimes people act as if Japan was not part of the globe, but it is, and in the end, it doesn't matter if it only sells a lot due to Japan, it still sells a lot. And considering DQ sells above other third-party series which are DLC, I don't think there is a financial gamble or that finances are a point against Erdrick or DQ.

You have to consider that 75% of Dragon Quest 11 sales came from Japan. That’s a huge number and clearly shows the series is not well received in the West. Yes Japan is part of the globe, but to say we only care about their sales and not the rest of the globe is not smart from a financial perspective. To depend on Japan to carry the sales for a character while the rest of the world may not receive them well is a huge gamble. It would be more wise to put a character that will perform well globally so that way you have a higher chance of income. Depending on Japan to carry the sales, is putting too many eggs in one basket. Looking at it from a business standpoint it’s not smart to depend on one region to carry sales.

 

[Teeb147]

Here's some points that I was thinking about around Erdrick vs Slime. I like Slime and wouldn't mind seeing it in smash, but I do think a hero will have more impact, and I'll explain a bit why..

SE promoted Dragon Quest 8 and 9 in the west more and it showed in their sales, getting over 1 million sales outside japan for each, compared to to DQ7 which i think only got a around 200k. They did not do much for DQ11 though and the sales didn't reach as high, but was still 800k in 2018 and it's most likely getting closer to 1 million now, but anyway it still shows that promoting the series works and is very important. I'm sure they realize that too.

There's reason to promote the series in the west, not just for the sales but also because (imo) it's a great series. And the thing is, if you would put a slime in smash, yes it would garner attention, but most already know slime and it doesn't add overly much for really showing the series, and i know personally it would probably not make me want to pick up a dq game, it would just be like oh cool, a cute slime from some japanese games.

How do you really show what dragon quest can be, in an impactful way? By putting in an awesome hero. That way you get more of a taste of what's cool about adventuring with a diverse character. And if there's some neat stuff on the stage, etc, maybe even some of the monsters showing up there, then you get a taste of that side of dragon quest too. I think being able to fight as a character you'd actually role-play in the game would have special impact.

A lot of people dont know how the heroes in the series can be, and when we see people say 'generic anime swordsman', it's clear that quite a few dont know just how much potential a hero from dragon quest has. If they're in, I'm sure sakurai will do the character justice and showcase how awesome it can be, even if I still suspect that a sword would be the main weapon used, there'd be so much more to show as well, including different kinds of magic, items, and skills.

While a slime could be interesting, you could have some as part of the stage or even with a hero. And if you want to showcase something more as well as something cool from dq then I think a hero is the way to go. If SE wanted to help promote the series, they can do it as the same time as please the huge fanbase in japan.


So, that's more a point for a hero in general, but i think there hasn't been a particular hero that's impacted people much more than others, and even if I showed Luminary to some random western gamer, i dont know if they'd be more interested in him than erdrick. That said we still don't know if there be a luminary skin or not, and I'm not sure we need to pit the heroes against each other, since any could rep the series fine, depending on how they do it. I will say that erdrick , to me, looks more interesting than luminary, design-wise. more like a jrpg 'hero'. But that might just be by my opinion, dunno

I also think erdrick has quite a bit to offer, and if there's dragon quest ports coming to the switch like has been talked about then it could potentially be good timing for that too.
The biggest points for erdrick have to do with the japanese impact, culture and otherwise. Which I can talk about too, but i didn't want to necessarily make a huge discussion about that, mostly just about slime vs a hero at least first.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

When a character is a virtual unknown in the West, it's inherently a gamble to sell them in the West. This is common sense here. Nobody is remotely saying it's a bad idea to gamble in itself(some might feel that way, but nobody is displaying it as a bad idea to even try).

For that matter, depending upon the idea that maybe enough people will get the Fighter's Pass to make the same amount of money back is a literal gamble in itself. We can't know it'll even get that far. It's not some safe bet to make. That's one of the least safe bets you can make. Never bank on something that's inherently iffy when common sense tells you to be careful. Remember, they need to make money beyond "what we paid to license". Including any royalties SE gets for each download(if applicable). Any DLC character can easily be a risk alone. There's a reason Sakurai didn't outright make Mewtwo regular DLC, but tried to test it to see if people were willing to buy both games to get the character. He took a gamble, and won. The main reason Roy and Lucas were DLC was due to heavy fan demand. If Edrick has a crapload of fan demand from multiple regions, then he'd be worth the risk. If not, it's a bigger, but still a reasonable gamble.

But as noted, 75% of the sales are from Japan for DQ11. That already shows how risky it would be to bank on the idea DQ stuff will have massive sales in the West and UK areas. They know it's an obvious risk here. Literally the evidence shows why. They can minimize the risk with a worldwide character, but that's just one possible way to do it. It doesn't mean it's the best, but it's still a logical way to do it regardless. This isn't like with Veterans, who you didn't spend tons of money on to license(notice how all the veteran DLC was 1st party? They're not risky. Notice how all the veteran 3rd parties were never anything beyond base roster too? It does appear like they follow this philosophy), or like base game, where you'll obviously get your money back anyway since Smash itself is massively worldwide in popularity. One is still a risk, but one with no real consequences, while the other isn't risky at all.

 

[A.G.L.]

Here's some points that I was thinking about around Erdrick vs Slime. I like Slime and wouldn't mind seeing it in smash, but I do think a hero will have more impact, and I'll explain a bit why..

SE promoted Dragon Quest 8 and 9 in the west more and it showed in their sales, getting over 1 million sales outside japan for each, compared to to DQ7 which i think only got a around 200k. They did not do much for DQ11 though and the sales didn't reach as high, but was still 800k in 2018 and it's most likely getting closer to 1 million now, but anyway it still shows that promoting the series works and is very important. I'm sure they realize that too.

There's reason to promote the series in the west, not just for the sales but also because (imo) it's a great series. And the thing is, if you would put a slime in smash, yes it would garner attention, but most already know slime and it doesn't add overly much for really showing the series, and i know personally it would probably not make me want to pick up a dq game, it would just be like oh cool, a cute slime from some japanese games.

How do you really show what dragon quest can be, in an impactful way? By putting in an awesome hero. That way you get more of a taste of what's cool about adventuring with a diverse character. And if there's some neat stuff on the stage, etc, maybe even some of the monsters showing up there, then you get a taste of that side of dragon quest too. I think being able to fight as a character you'd actually role-play in the game would have special impact.

A lot of people dont know how the heroes in the series can be, and when we see people say 'generic anime swordsman', it's clear that quite a few dont know just how much potential a hero from dragon quest has. If they're in, I'm sure sakurai will do the character justice and showcase how awesome it can be, even if I still suspect that a sword would be the main weapon used, there'd be so much more to show as well, including different kinds of magic, items, and skills.

While a slime could be interesting, you could have some as part of the stage or even with a hero. And if you want to showcase something more as well as something cool from dq then I think a hero is the way to go. If SE wanted to help promote the series, they can do it as the same time as please the huge fanbase in japan.


So, that's more a point for a hero in general, but i think there hasn't been a particular hero that's impacted people much more than others, and even if I showed Luminary to some random western gamer, i dont know if they'd be more interested in him than erdrick. That said we still don't know if there be a luminary skin or not, and I'm not sure we need to pit the heroes against each other, since any could rep the series fine, depending on how they do it. I will say that erdrick , to me, looks more interesting than luminary, design-wise. more like a jrpg 'hero'. But that might just be by my opinion, dunno

I also think erdrick has quite a bit to offer, and if there's dragon quest ports coming to the switch like has been talked about then it could potentially be good timing for that too.
The biggest points for erdrick have to do with the japanese impact, culture and otherwise. Which I can talk about too, but i didn't want to necessarily make a huge discussion about that, mostly just about slime vs a hero at least first.

I first want to say you displayed your points beautifully. There a lot you said that I hadn’t thought of definitely made me think.

I actually think if Nintendo and Square did choose a DQ rep as the second SE rep. They could do a compromise. What if Erdrick/Luminary has Slime as part of their moveset, taunts and final smash. Plus as their character logo. This would still have a hero as their choice while Slime would be equally represented. Might work, but personally I just hope if we do get a DQ rep that they come with a lot of music. I hope Sugiyama lets other people remix his work, that we way we might get some really interesting music pieces that are new.

 

[MajoraMan28]

You have to consider that 75% of Dragon Quest 11 sales came from Japan. That’s a huge number and clearly shows the series is not well received in the West. Yes Japan is part of the globe, but to say we only care about their sales and not the rest of the globe is not smart from a financial perspective. To depend on Japan to carry the sales for a character while the rest of the world may not receive them well is a huge gamble. It would be more wise to put a character that will perform well globally so that way you have a higher chance of income. Depending on Japan to carry the sales, is putting too many eggs in one basket. Looking at it from a business standpoint it’s not smart to depend on one region to carry sales.

I disagree with your observation. The sales being mostly japanese is the living example of Square sucking ass at marketing the game.
They can't market properly more than one game at the same time, and DQXIS wasn't their focus. The game was critically well received, and every person I talk to that played the game loved it.
DQ is renegated by SE International. Imagine having NoA levels of marketing during the Wii U era, but being a thing for decades for a videogame series.

Also, a slight note as well, but what you mentioned about Geno is also something that needs reconsidering.
Square has no need to promote or do anything with Geno. To them, he is a Mario character that they happened to own. It was on Nintendo to buy him back, but for literally decades the company hasn't bothered to make the bid. I'm the first guy to criticize S-E after the original Squaresoft crew left, but I think it is important to give credit and lack thereof where it's due. Nintendo had the obligation of getting him back, but never did much at all, outside of moving a few pieces to get the OK sign for references and cameos for decades to come. A true shame.

And regarding Slime, I see him being a part of the Stage and possibly even a taunt.
Luminary is definitely slept on. I saw an interesting theory that Luminary might be the western default of the character with Erdrick as an alt, while Japan gets the other way around. Very cool idea. And I'm not betting on a female Erdrick at all. Tbh, right now I think Erdrick isn't as likely as I thought he was for months. Things have changed quite a lot, with the info I've been gathering

Sick picture! Never seen it before, love it.

VERY nice new artwork there my friend!

 

[Namasura]

You have to consider that 75% of Dragon Quest 11 sales came from Japan. That’s a huge number and clearly shows the series is not well received in the West. Yes Japan is part of the globe, but to say we only care about their sales and not the rest of the globe is not smart from a financial perspective. To depend on Japan to carry the sales for a character while the rest of the world may not receive them well is a huge gamble. It would be more wise to put a character that will perform well globally so that way you have a higher chance of income. Depending on Japan to carry the sales, is putting too many eggs in one basket. Looking at it from a business standpoint it’s not smart to depend on one region to carry sales.

Well, I am sorry, I just don't follow the logic. For a start, DQ itself works as counterproof, its 33 years of having all the eggs in one basket and so far it has not failed to deliver, right? DQ 11 is 75% Japan and yet still above the game that already got into Smash DLC, Persona 5, right? This is what I am pointing at when I say people act as if Japan is not part of the globe, Japanese sales go into the global sales number, right? 4 million in Japan is also 4 million into the global total, right? Persona 5 had a smaller customer base than Dragon Quest 11, right? Larger global sales -> performing well globally?
How does that lead to DQ11 being a larger gamble because one country in particular is overrepresented? How does the fact it being Japan only suddenly make it 'a gamble' if the total customer base for DQ is larger? Is it more likely that the 3~4 million Japanese users who bought DQ11, many of which did it on the 3DS (a Nintendo console) will suddenly lose interest over the 2 million global crowd that bought Persona 5? Why? A product that sells 10 units on each continent is more reliable than one who sells 150 in one? That is what I really don't understand, customer bases react on a nationwide level?

And like, all this not counting the fact Smash is Japanese on its core, just like Video Games since Atari flopped, but I decided to keep the subjective side out.

 

[Icewolff92]

If Byleth makes it into Ultimate, I'll have the same reaction as I did when Corrin made it into Smash 4:

It would probably be worse.

However, I actually think Edelgard would be really interesting if she’s part of DLC. Especially since she uses an axe and sword. If they give her a great move set she could play differently from all of the other Fire Emblem characters. That might help people not mind another FE rep.

Yeah, if I had to choose a 3H rep, Edelgard is certainly the one for the same reason as you. When it comes to Fire Emblem... it annoys me to the core that Sakurai has been so extremely lazy with the choice and moveset. Just look at how Project M people have handled Black Knight and Hector.... blargh... the fact that modders give the franchise more love than a brilliant game director is beyond me.. I speak for the majority of FE fans that we rather have 4 unique ones then 5 that is semi-clones of each other. Thankfully Corrin and Robin as unique from the bunch at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNUxD_eOIE&ab_channel=yoshiyoshia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZDLWqSIpR8&ab_channel=yoshiyoshia

 

[Ovaltine]

Also, a slight note as well, but what you mentioned about Geno is also something that needs reconsidering.
Square has no need to promote or do anything with Geno. To them, he is a Mario character that they happened to own. It was on Nintendo to buy him back, but for literally decades the company hasn't bothered to make the bid. I'm the first guy to criticize S-E after the original Squaresoft crew left, but I think it is important to give credit and lack thereof where it's due. Nintendo had the obligation of getting him back, but never did much at all, outside of moving a few pieces to get the OK sign for references and cameos for decades to come. A true shame.

It would honestly be best for both parties if SMRPG's rights got sold to Nintendo, but I don't think both sides really want to. Square, yes, but their asking price would probably be exorbitant, and they will not want to let those rights go without a pretty penny. On top of that, Nintendo probably wouldn't want to purchase the rights for said pretty penny because it wouldn't be worth the reward. Unless they had large, overarching plans to use Geno that makes purchasing those rights cost-efficient, they'd probably never think to buy the rights entirely.

 

[Idon]

It would probably be worse.



Yeah, if I had to choose a 3H rep, Edelgard is certainly the one for the same reason as you. When it comes to Fire Emblem... it annoys me to the core that Sakurai has been so extremely lazy with the choice and moveset. Just look at how Project M people have handled Black Knight and Hector.... blargh... the fact that modders give the franchise more love than a brilliant game director is beyond me.. I speak for the majority of FE fans that we rather have 4 unique ones then 5 that is semi-clones of each other. Thankfully Corrin and Robin as unique from the bunch at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNUxD_eOIE&ab_channel=yoshiyoshia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZDLWqSIpR8&ab_channel=yoshiyoshia

There's only 4 characters with the similar base.
Original Marth w/ Lucina echo.
Semiclone Roy w/ hrom echo.

Ike shares no similarity between the characters except in the way that his weapon is a sword.

 

[A.G.L.]

I disagree with your observation. The sales being mostly japanese is the living example of Square sucking *** at marketing the game.
They can't market properly more than one game at the same time, and DQXIS wasn't their focus. The game was critically well received, and every person I talk to that played the game loved it.
DQ is renegated by SE International. Imagine having NoA levels of marketing during the Wii U era, but being a thing for decades for a videogame series.

Also, a slight note as well, but what you mentioned about Geno is also something that needs reconsidering.
Square has no need to promote or do anything with Geno. To them, he is a Mario character that they happened to own. It was on Nintendo to buy him back, but for literally decades the company hasn't bothered to make the bid. I'm the first guy to criticize S-E after the original Squaresoft crew left, but I think it is important to give credit and lack thereof where it's due. Nintendo had the obligation of getting him back, but never did much at all, outside of moving a few pieces to get the OK sign for references and cameos for decades to come. A true shame.

And regarding Slime, I see him being a part of the Stage and possibly even a taunt.
Luminary is definitely slept on. I saw an interesting theory that Luminary might be the western default of the character with Erdrick as an alt, while Japan gets the other way around. Very cool idea. And I'm not betting on a female Erdrick at all. Tbh, right now I think Erdrick isn't as likely as I thought he was for months. Things have changed quite a lot, with the info I've been gathering


VERY nice new artwork there my friend!

Oh I can’t deny the fact that the reason DQ isn’t popular in the West is the fault of Square. You are absolutely correct, they really should’ve pushed the game more. I also am not denying that the game by those who have played it, is well loved. I mean that’s why we’re even having this back and forth on this thread. As for Square not being able to market one game at a time, I disagree. They marketed FF15 while still updating FF14, and pushing Octopath Traveler. Are they as a company the best at marketing? Absolutely not, but they do know how to market. They just didn’t put a priority on DQ in the West. This is a big point we need to consider, if Square hasn’t prioritized making DQ popular in the West before. Will they start now by adding in a DQ rep to Smash Ultimate?

What I meant by Geno is that Square could’ve at least used him in other games. They didn’t have to shelve him away, they do own the rights to him after all. Yes he is a Mario character, but he didn’t have to stay that way, they chose to let him stay that way. And I agree iv said it many times that Nintendo should buy Geno, that way he could be used in Mario Kart, tennis, and renew the SMRPG series but without Square. Will Nintendo do this who knows, I wouldn’t doubt that Square is also asking for a lot of money to get Geno.

I think since Slime is the mascot of the series he will be a part of the moveset. We have to consider this character is the face of the series, it makes sense to include him more.

 

[Icewolff92]

There's only 4 characters with the similar base.
Original Marth w/ Lucina echo.
Semiclone Roy w/ hrom echo.

Ike shares no similarity between the characters except in the way that his weapon is a sword.

It was a typo, but the comment still stands. He has been extremely lazy on how he has handled the Fire Emblem reps

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's only 4 characters with the similar base.
Original Marth w/ Lucina echo.
Semiclone Roy w/ hrom echo.

Ike shares no similarity between the characters except in the way that his weapon is a sword.

Well, Ike's Neutral B is pretty much an alternate version of Roy's.

...That's kind of it, though. Counters aside.

 

[Idon]

It was a typo, but the comment still stands. He has been extremely lazy on how he has handled the Fire Emblem reps

Not especially, honestly.

The most flagrant laziness comes from a rushed clone from 2001 Melee that only gets carried over nowadays due to "Smash Legacy" and "Everyone is Here" And 2 echoes which are almost essentially modelswaps.

And believe me, I'd rather many other characters then those 3, specifically Hector or Lyn. But at this point it's clear even Sakurai thinks the FE franchise is oversaturated.

 

[A.G.L.]

Well, I am sorry, I just don't follow the logic. For a start, DQ itself works as counterproof, its 33 years of having all the eggs in one basket and so far it has not failed to deliver, right? DQ 11 is 75% Japan and yet still above the game that already got into Smash DLC, Persona 5, right? This is what I am pointing at when I say people act as if Japan is not part of the globe, Japanese sales go into the global sales number, right? 4 million in Japan is also 4 million into the global total, right? Persona 5 had a smaller customer base than Dragon Quest 11, right? Larger global sales -> performing well globally?
How does that lead to DQ11 being a larger gamble because one country in particular is overrepresented? How does the fact it being Japan only suddenly make it 'a gamble' if the total customer base for DQ is larger? Is it more likely that the 3~4 million Japanese users who bought DQ11, many of which did it on the 3DS (a Nintendo console) will suddenly lose interest over the 2 million global crowd that bought Persona 5? Why? A product that sells 10 units on each continent is more reliable than one who sells 150 in one? That is what I really don't understand, customer bases react on a nationwide level?

And like, all this not counting the fact Smash is Japanese on its core, just like Video Games since Atari flopped, but I decided to keep the subjective side out.

I’m sorry friend I understand your logic, but I don’t follow. Comparing Dragon Quest and Persona when they are owned by two different companies is comparing an apple to an orange. Sega owns Atlus, and Atlus makes Persona. Sega is not as difficult to work with as Square is. Sega and Nintendo have an incredible relationship, where as Square and Nintendo are just renewing there’s.

Again when people consider DLC, they don’t consider how Square is involved and how much weight they have in this. Yes Dragon Quest sells well, no one can deny this. However it does not sell well globally. Square is not a risk taker, they do not put characters in other games unless they know they are globally popular (at least this has been the trend so far). Nintendo cannot put in any character they want, just because they are already working with that company. They have to get permission, and that means that Square has to agree to the terms set. Since Square who has a pattern of choosing globally popular characters who sell well in all regions is a part of this deal. It’s more likely they will not choose a Dragon Quest character due to the fact that Square Enix likes to play it safe when they cross promote, and Dragon Quest has proven to get most of it’s sales from Japan and not other regions. This is why I say that we have to consider financial income, because that’s the way Square Enix operates.

 

[Icewolff92]

Not especially, honestly.

The most flagrant laziness comes from a rushed clone from 2001 Melee that only gets carried over nowadays due to "Smash Legacy" and "Everyone is Here." And 2 echoes which are almost essentially modelswaps.

And believe me, I'd rather many other characters then those 3, specifically Hector or Lyn.

I know.. and it STINKS ...