[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[Idon]

Well, Ike's Neutral B is pretty much an alternate version of Roy's.

...That's kind of it, though. Counters aside.

Well, really Roy's was an alternate of Melee Marth's Shield Breaker.

And besides nowadays between the 2 you've got the ability to turn around for Roy, Flame pillars, superarmor, and a back hitbox for Ike. It's like Lucario vs Mewtwo energy balls at this point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, really Roy's was an alternate of Melee Marth's Shield Breaker.

And besides nowadays between the 2 you've got the ability to turn around for Roy, Flame pillars, superarmor, and a back hitbox. It's like Lucario vs Mewtwo energy balls at this point.

That too. Funny thing is Lucario and Mewtwo now have fairly different versions outside of the animation alone. Mewtwo's can't damage characters while charging. They also shot in different ways, with one moving all around while the other was straight ahead.

It wasn't a surprise that Ike was seen as a replacement for Roy at the time of Brawl. Ike used fire as is. They were a lot more different in the first place, even before Roy got de-cloned.

 

[Teeb147]

Since the topic on japan and western is still going, I decided to look at some more numbers, because I'd rather get a better picture first than just talk about it.
I know that sales aren't everything, but they count for a lot since it shows how many are already interested in the games.

How much has Smash Ultimate sold?
-"13.81 million copies worldwide"
How much of that is Japan?
-"its total physical game sales in Japan to 2,974,153" (march)
-"309,229 digital sales" (feb)

I couldn't find more recent numbers for just japan easily, but let's assume they got a tad more, putting the total at 3.5 million there.
That's 25% of ultimate's sales! That's actually huge, considering all the other countries, lol.

Looking at Persona 5 and Dragon Quest 11, p5 didn't sell as much, but probably has more western sales. It's probably not incredibly much more though, since persona 5 was a big hit in japan. (havent been able to find japan-only numbers besides near launch)
I wanted to know how much persona has sold with all its games, and it's:
-9. 3 million (oct). -> It's probably a bit over 10 million now.

Now let's see what Dragon Quest has sold as a series:
-78 million

Persona only has a bit over one eighth of those sales. That's not very much in the big world of gamers buying stuff.
I know that dragon quest is older, but that also means a lot of kids in those houses that grew up with dragon quest are off on their own, with more money and maybe their own consoles (etc), and I think that sales are sales, regardless of what part of the world they're in.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the points about regions arent worth talking about, but it feels like talking over a grey line, because there's more going on for sales than just looking at regions. I also think money isn't the only thing that would get into decisions for characters. Sakurai likes certain games and characters too (etc).
I might as well share all the links for the numbers..

Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate
https://dotesports.com/fgc/news/smash-ultimate-japan-best-selling-switch-game
https://gematsu.com/2019/02/super-s...month-in-japan-and-more-digital-sales-numbers
https://personacentral.com/persona-megaten-etrian-odyssey-sales-worldwide-2018/
https://press.na.square-enix.com/releases/1390/square-enix-announces-pax-east-2019-lineup-and-events

 

[Namasura]

snip

The core of what I am saying here is that there is overestimation of the value of global sales here. I don't see how something that sells a lot and has a big fanbase is a gamble. It selling mostly on one country does not change that. Like, why? Sales are sales. Does selling in two countries multiple your profits by two? No, right? If a game had sold 10 million exclusively on India it would still be a big successful game, DQ has consistently sold 4-6 mi in its main titles over 30 years, it is SE's second most important franchise and the symbol of Enix. It selling 500k on new releases in the west is irrelevant.

There is no financial gamble. DQ has millions of fans, they aren't nonexistent because they aren't from the US. 3 million Japanese costumers is not less than 3 million western costumers. Games can be important even if they are not big in the US.

How would the logic for DQ in smash be different of the logic for SE to make new DQ games and products?

Also, hasn't SE used DQ for crossovers multiple time? Dai, Fortune Street, the basketball game? I am pretty sure DQ is the second SE series with the most crossovers.

 

[NomadLuminary]

The core of what I am saying here is that there is overestimation of the value of global sales here. I don't see how something that sells a lot and has a big fanbase is a gamble. It selling mostly on one country does not change that. Like, why? Sales are sales. Does selling in two countries multiple your profits by two? No, right? If a game had sold 10 million exclusively on India it would still be a big successful game, DQ has consistently sold 4-6 mi in its main titles over 30 years, it is SE's second most important franchise and the symbol of Enix. It selling 500k on new releases in the west is irrelevant.

There is no financial gamble. DQ has millions of fans, they aren't nonexistent because they are from the US. 3 million Japanese costumers is not less than 3 million western costumers. Games can be important even if they are not big in the US.

How would the logic for DQ in smash be different of the logic for SE to make new DQ games and products?

Also, hasn't SE used DQ for crossovers multiple time? Dai, Fortune Street, the basketball game? I am pretty sure DQ is the second SE series with the most crossovers.

Nuff said

 

[MajoraMan28]

It would honestly be best for both parties if SMRPG's rights got sold to Nintendo, but I don't think both sides really want to. Square, yes, but their asking price would probably be exorbitant, and they will not want to let those rights go without a pretty penny. On top of that, Nintendo probably wouldn't want to purchase the rights for said pretty penny because it wouldn't be worth the reward. Unless they had large, overarching plans to use Geno that makes purchasing those rights cost-efficient, they'd probably never think to buy the rights entirely.

Don't overestimate their pricing. Yes, they would ask for a higher price than expected, but hardly would they be hard and expensive for Nintendo to obtain. They are quite within reach.

Oh I can’t deny the fact that the reason DQ isn’t popular in the West is the fault of Square. You are absolutely correct, they really should’ve pushed the game more. I also am not denying that the game by those who have played it, is well loved. I mean that’s why we’re even having this back and forth on this thread. As for Square not being able to market one game at a time, I disagree. They marketed FF15 while still updating FF14, and pushing Octopath Traveler. Are they as a company the best at marketing? Absolutely not, but they do know how to market. They just didn’t put a priority on DQ in the West. This is a big point we need to consider, if Square hasn’t prioritized making DQ popular in the West before. Will they start now by adding in a DQ rep to Smash Ultimate?

What I meant by Geno is that Square could’ve at least used him in other games. They didn’t have to shelve him away, they do own the rights to him after all. Yes he is a Mario character, but he didn’t have to stay that way, they chose to let him stay that way. And I agree iv said it many times that Nintendo should buy Geno, that way he could be used in Mario Kart, tennis, and renew the SMRPG series but without Square. Will Nintendo do this who knows, I wouldn’t doubt that Square is also asking for a lot of money to get Geno.

I think since Slime is the mascot of the series he will be a part of the moveset. We have to consider this character is the face of the series, it makes sense to include him more.

Updating FFXIV is not comparable to selling a game. FFXV was their main focus, and friendly reminder that Nintendo pushed for basically 50% of the marketing for Octopath, and is doing so again with DQXIS.
S-E has literally been said to follow this strat. Look at how they treated FFXV, KHIII and now FFVII. They usually promote other titles, but usually seen as lower tier to them, and with not even a comparable amount of investment.

And I can't see why SE would use Geno outside of Mario. His entire origin story is centered around elements of the Mario universe,
Having him in FF or DQ wouldn't make much sense outside of being a cameo that an extremely niche crowd would recognize today.

How would you incorporate Slime in his moveset?

 

[A.G.L.]

The core of what I am saying here is that there is overestimation of the value of global sales here. I don't see how something that sells a lot and has a big fanbase is a gamble. It selling mostly on one country does not change that. Like, why? Sales are sales. Does selling in two countries multiple your profits by two? No, right? If a game had sold 10 million exclusively on India it would still be a big successful game, DQ has consistently sold 4-6 mi in its main titles over 30 years, it is SE's second most important franchise and the symbol of Enix. It selling 500k on new releases in the west is irrelevant.

There is no financial gamble. DQ has millions of fans, they aren't nonexistent because they aren't from the US. 3 million Japanese costumers is not less than 3 million western costumers. Games can be important even if they are not big in the US.

How would the logic for DQ in smash be different of the logic for SE to make new DQ games and products?

Also, hasn't SE used DQ for crossovers multiple time? Dai, Fortune Street, the basketball game? I am pretty sure DQ is the second SE series with the most crossovers.

That’s not how successful businesses operate though. Seeing one sale can carry the weight of all sales isn’t realistic. Yes selling in different countries does increase your profits. Let me put it you this way Sora vs Erdrick. Whose likely to sell more? A globally popular character who sells well everywhere or a character that’s mostly popular in Japan. If you as a company we’re looking at this who do you think would have a higher guarantee of total income? Keep in mind that you have to make decisions that help the company as a whole. If you choose Erdrick you are gambling, because you are only focusing the majority of your sales in one region. You are expecting that the sales of that one region will be enough to carry all sales. That just isn’t realistic, it’s more realistic to choose someone who can help you achieve sales all around. That way you have a higher chance of a higher total gross income. Erdrick right now as he stands would most likely only help in short income, unless by somehow including him many people get interested in Dragon Quest. Sora on the other hand is globally popular, that means globally you have people drawing interest in Kingdom Hearts and vice versa. This is the essence of cross promotion and what Square always banks on. By putting a character that is mostly popular in one region, you are risking that your long term income will be shorter. This is what I’m trying to tell you. You keep looking at Japan’s sales and saying they are enough. When from a business standpoint that’s not realistic. You have to look at this from all angles. Why settle for 3 million Japanese consumers, when you can settle for 10 million globally? By focusing only on one region, you would be hurting your profits. It’s like if Marvel said we’re only going to focus on the Endgame profits in America and the fans in America. By doing that you are missing out on all the other profits globally, and you will not make as much total income as you could have.

 

[Icewolff92]

Also, hasn't SE used DQ for crossovers multiple time? Dai, Fortune Street, the basketball game? I am pretty sure DQ is the second SE series with the most crossovers.

Latter two is made by Square though and not the other way around.. so its more Nintendo played the ball with Square instead of the other way around so to speak. Heck Fortune Street (or Boom Street as its called in Europe) is basically a Dragon Quest game with Nintendo guests.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

BTW, posts like "nuff said" are treated as spam by the moderation. Please try to contribute more constructively than that. You can Like the post instead.

 

[Namasura]

That’s not how successful businesses operate though. Seeing one sale can carry the weight of all sales isn’t realistic. Yes selling in different countries does increase your profits. Let me put it you this way Sora vs Erdrick. Whose likely to sell more? A globally popular character who sells well everywhere or a character that’s mostly popular in Japan. If you as a company we’re looking at this who do you think would have a higher guarantee of total income? Keep in mind that you have to make decisions that help the company as a whole. If you choose Erdrick you are gambling, because you are only focusing the majority of your sales in one region. You are expecting that the sales of that one region will be enough to carry all sales. That just isn’t realistic, it’s more realistic to choose someone who can help you achieve sales all around. That way you have a higher chance of a higher total gross income. Erdrick right now as he stands would most likely only help in short income, unless by somehow including him many people get interested in Dragon Quest. Sora on the other hand is globally popular, that means globally you have people drawing interest in Kingdom Hearts and vice versa. This is the essence of cross promotion and what Square always banks on. By putting a character that is mostly popular in one region, you are risking that your long term income will be shorter. This is what I’m trying to tell you. You keep looking at Japan’s sales and saying they are enough. When from a business standpoint that’s not realistic. You have to look at this from all angles. Why settle for 3 million Japanese consumers, when you can settle for 10 million globally? By focusing only on one region, you would be hurting your profits. It’s like if Marvel said we’re only going to focus on the Endgame profits in America and the fans in America. By doing that you are missing out on all the other profits globally, and you will not make as much total income as you could have.

10 million globally is obviously more than 3 million regional.

3 million regional is more than 2 million global.

Simply being global won't guarantee success. If a game sells more it sold more. Selling here or there is irrelevant. Simply being global won't make a game less of a gamble.

KH itself isn't that far from DQ. It sells a bit more, but it hasn't been catching up with DQ's profits and franchise sales, the sales gap between the two has increased, not decreased, and in the DS and 3DS global KH was consistently outsold by DQ.

 

[A.G.L.]

10 million globally is obviously more than 3 million regional.

3 million regional is more than 2 million global.

Simply being global won't guarantee success. If a game sells more it sold more. Selling here or there is irrelevant. Simply being global won't make a game less of a gamble.

KH itself isn't that far from DQ. It sells a bit more, but it hasn't been catching up with DQ's profits and franchise sales, the sales gap between the two has increased, and in the DS and 3DS global KH was consistently outsold by DQ.

You’re making an assumption that a character like Sora or Sephiroth would only make 2 million globally and that’s not including the cross promotion sales. And that’s a huge assumption! KH might have less sales, but keep in mind it’s a younger series. Also globally KH has more sales. And that’s only using Sora as an example. If we use Sephiroth which franchise’s totals sales has more sales than DQ. That shows even more that a character globally will sell more than a character who mostly loved by one region. You are also forgetting that Square has not operated by putting in a character that’s mostly loved by one region. Smash Wii U, Cloud (globally popular) Assassins Creed Origins, Ardyn & Bahamut (globally popular). Monster Hunter World, Behemoth (globally popular), Tekken 7, Noctis (globally popular), Soul Calibur 6, 2B (globally popular). There’s a trend in all of these, it’s clear that Square see’s the importance of global sales and the cross promotion they can get globally. They like to play it safe, they go with characters that they know will sell well globally. Like I said before it’s clear that Square looks at sales from all regions and not just focus on Japan.

 

[Teeb147]

10 million globally is obviously more than 3 million regional.

3 million regional is more than 2 million global.

Simply being global won't guarantee success. If a game sells more it sold more. Selling here or there is irrelevant. Simply being global won't make a game less of a gamble.

KH itself isn't that far from DQ. It sells a bit more, but it hasn't been catching up with DQ's profits and franchise sales, the sales gap between the two has increased, and in the DS and 3DS global KH was consistently outsold by DQ.

Kingdom Hearts 3 broke the previous records for kh, so the series might keep getting bigger. It's not a big gap right now but It might even overtake DQ overall eventually.
Well, really depends which direction each series goes.

 

[cmbsfm]

This is a big point we need to consider, if Square hasn’t prioritized making DQ popular in the West before. Will they start now by adding in a DQ rep to Smash Ultimate?

Aren't they already starting to promote in the west now? DQXI had a significant presence in the last direct and there seems to be more effort put into the Western version, given that we're actually getting a symphonic soundtrack. It seems to me that they are starting increase their promotion in the west. So I personally think they'd see the marketing potential for Erdrick being a DLC fighter. Also Hori has said he wants the series to get more popular in the west.

Again when people consider DLC, they don’t consider how Square is involved and how much weight they have in this. Yes Dragon Quest sells well, no one can deny this. However it does not sell well globally. Square is not a risk taker, they do not put characters in other games unless they know they are globally popular (at least this has been the trend so far).

If that was the case, why does cloud barely crossover with any non-Square Enix games? I think the ones besides smash are Little Big Planet as a skin, and a mobile game called Monster Strike. He's a globally popular character, no? In addition, you've also got this interview. This indicates that they were okay with letting Sakurai use a newer character. If they were worried about characters not being globally popular, why would they be okay with a newer character? Wouldn't they feel that it's a risk, since it's not one of their more popular characters? Plus, the fact that Sakurai was able to get the rights to Cloud twice, one of which a base game character, speaks a lot to the sway that he/Nintendo have in negotiations with Square.

And I would disagree that putting Erdrick as DLC is a risk unless Smash DLC doesn't sell as well as we think. They would still profit from it as DQ is really popular to where Erdrick or a DQ character would sell well overall. It isn't as big in the west but the curious and the completionists would still buy him. Namasura has already posted sales figures, but DQ is one of SE's best selling and most popular franchises despite the majority of the sales coming from on region.

The Geno costume also comes to mind. Square knows he's obscure, yet allowed his presence in the game. Why didn't they get a costume of a more popular character? That'd sell more, no?

If you ask me, this whole "Square Enix is too stingy to give more characters" is the next "Konami is too evil to give us characters". Just somewhat blown out of proportion. Are they protective about what they lend out? Absolutely. There's a reason why Cloud doesn't crossover as much despite being one of the most iconic gaming characters. There's a reason why FF content is lacking. But at the end of the day, Nintendo got Cloud in the game. And I believe they are capable of securing Erdrick too if they really wanted it, especially when there is a major marketing benefit for Square Enix.

 

[Ovaltine]

If you ask me, this whole "Square Enix is too stingy to give more characters" is the next "Konami is too evil to give us characters".

Konami's not as evil as people say. They're very generous with their pachinko machines.

(Nah, but aside from the weirdly tense fall out with Kojima, Konami's fine. It's no wonder they don't know how to use MGS after, you know, the creator who handled things at the helm left. They're also doing some nice stuff with Castlevania, and their relationship with Nintendo is very good.)

 

[Namasura]

KH might have less sales, but keep in mind it’s a younger series.

A friend of my actually did the full math.

Since KH's release, DQ has sold more than KH.

KH is currently 17 years old, when DQ was 17 years old it had sold more than what KH has sold now.

I am not trying to deny KH is popular, of course it is, 6 million sales is a behemoth. That said, that is no ground to underestimate the size and presence of DQ and act as if the series was on its last leg lol. To me Sora and Erdrick are on the same ground, Sora having a slight advantage in peak sales but DQ being right behind with consistent sales and having the advantage of being Nintendo related. To me a second FF7 character is hard to happen without causing internal issues on SE.

 

[Icewolff92]

You’re making an assumption that a character like Sora or Sephiroth would only make 2 million globally and that’s not including the cross promotion sales. And that’s a huge assumption! KH might have less sales, but keep in mind it’s a younger series. Also globally KH has more sales. And that’s only using Sora as an example. If we use Sephiroth which franchise’s totals sales has more sales than DQ. That shows even more that a character globally will sell more than a character who mostly loved by one region. You are also forgetting that Square has not operated by putting in a character that’s mostly loved by one region. Smash Wii U, Cloud (globally popular) Assassins Creed Origins, Ardyn & Bahamut (globally popular). Monster Hunter World, Behemoth (globally popular), Tekken 7, Noctis (globally popular), Soul Calibur 6, 2B (globally popular). There’s a trend in all of these, it’s clear that Square see’s the importance of global sales and the cross promotion they can get globally. They like to play it safe, they go with characters that they know will sell well globally. Like I said before it’s clear that Square looks at sales from all angles not just Japan.

Exactly. Granted, they might take a gamble for the sake of "push the series" here in the west. However, Smash Brothers are not much of a "pusher" ironically. Why you might ask? Look at Fire Emblem. Not until Awakening (which was supposed to be the last at one point I might add) was Fire Emblem a major franchise for Nintendo. And Awakening was the 6 games post-Marth and Roys intro in Melee. For naga's sake... the games with Ike (who is arguably one of, if not the most popular lord in the franchise) are the one that has sold the worst unless Echoes got worse numbers considering Nintendo refuses to release the sales for that entry.

 

[Teeb147]

A friend of many actually did the full math.

Since KH's release, DQ has sold more than KH.

KH is currently 17 years old, when DQ was 17 years old it had sold more than what KH has sold now.

I am not trying to deny KH is popular, of course it is, 6 million sales is a behemoth. That said, that is no ground to underestimate the size and presence of DQ and act as if the series was on its last leg lol. To me Sora and Erdrick are on the same ground, Sora having a slight advantage in peak sales but DQ being right behind with consistent sales and having the advantage of being Nintendo related. To me a second FF7 character is hard to happen without causing internal issues on SE.

Yeah I think people should at least view them as big contenders, and that's that. Trying to push points to make one or the other seem like a bad choice doesnt feel respectful at all. I think Sora has a chance too. There's just the question of disney, but nothing condemning, so beyond small things they have chances to be in smash.

 

[A.G.L.]

Aren't they already starting to promote in the west now? DQXI had a significant presence in the last direct and there seems to be more effort put into the Western version, given that we're actually getting a symphonic soundtrack. It seems to me that they are starting increase their promotion in the west. So I personally think they'd see the marketing potential for Erdrick being a DLC fighter. Also Hori has said he wants the series to get more popular in the west.



If that was the case, why does cloud barely crossover with any non-Square Enix games? I think the ones besides smash are Little Big Planet as a skin, and a mobile game called Monster Strike. He's a globally popular character, no? In addition, you've also got this interview. This indicates that they were okay with letting Sakurai use a newer character. If they were worried about characters not being globally popular, why would they be okay with a newer character? Wouldn't they feel that it's a risk. Plus, the fact that Sakurai was able to get the rights to Cloud twice, one of which a base game character, speaks a lot to the sway that he/Nintendo have in negotiations with Square.

And I would disagree that putting Erdrick as DLC is a risk unless Smash DLC doesn't sell as well as we think. They would still profit from it as DQ is really popular to where Erdrick or a DQ character would sell well overall. It isn't as big in the west but the curious and the completionists would still buy him. Namasura has already posted sales figures, but DQ is one of SE's best selling and most popular franchises despite the majority of the sales coming from on region.

The Geno costume also comes to mind. Square knows he's obscure, yet allowed his presence in the game. Why didn't they get a costume of a more popular character? That'd sell more, no?

If you ask me, this whole "Square Enix is too stingy to give more characters" is the next "Konami is too evil to give us characters". Just somewhat blown out of proportion. Are they protective about what they lend out? Absolutely. There's a reason why Cloud doesn't crossover as much despite being one of the most iconic gaming characters. There's a reason why FF content is lacking. But at the end of the day, Nintendo got Cloud in the game. And I believe they are capable of securing Erdrick too if they really wanted it, especially when there is a major marketing benefit for Square Enix.

Cloud barely crosses over because Square has only recently taken an interesting in lending out there characters. We have not seem them lend so much out until recently. I mean they lent out Cloud, Ardyn, Behemoth, Noctis and 2B all within a short time of each other. Its like they caught the cross promoting bug. Whereas before Square wasn't crazy about lending out there stuff unless they were making the game. And agree Sakurai does have sway, but Sakurai isnt choosing the characters for the DLC, Nintendo is.

And im not debating that DQ sells, im debating that it does not sell well globally and that Square has so far not put in someone in a crossover who isnt globally popular

Square allowed the Geno costume as in trying to appease the fans, but still putting in their cross promoting character who brings them more sales.

Im not saying that its impossible for Nintendo to get Erdrick from Square. Im saying that most of the Smash fanbase keep saying that he's a 95%-98% lock. However if you take away leaks which are shaky at best as Verde Coeden Scalesworth has stated, you see that the Dragon Quest debate does not have as much momentum as everyone is assuming it does. The problem with a lot of the Smash fans is they take leaks as literal proof, when they should be used more as a strong possibility. This is why when leaks don't turn out to be true people get so outraged, because they already convinced themselves that it is true. When looking at characters especially the ones we want in, we need to be our own devils advocate. Because if not we can let our emotions, versus logic dictate us. Example is even though I knew Ken was strongly rumored, I didn't totally believe it until I saw it. When looking at leaks or even character potential we need to look at it objectively, and not just see all the pros they have.

Anyway folks I digress and we can keep going around and around until they finally reveal who the second rep is lol. Teeb147 , Namasura , MajoraMan28 , cmbsfm you all brought up some great points. And thank you all for debating me with civility. Also for all you Erdrick fans I hope you get your wish, if it does happen I'll be really happy for you all. And in case anyone is wondering though I might like it if Sora got in, I actually don't like him as a character. I actually prefer Roxas lol.

I just try to look at things objectively no matter how much I want that character in, and iv learned to not rely on leaks so much. Example everyone and their mother thought Spawn was a lock for Injustice 2, there were leaks saying he was in. And insiders saying he was in, and Ed Boon's own tweets hinting he was in. And yet no Spawn, so iv learned to take leaks at face value.


All of that being said, best wishes to all. Hopefully we do get the Square character announced at E3, if not heres to another couple of months speculating ha!

 

[Icewolff92]

The Geno costume also comes to mind. Square knows he's obscure, yet allowed his presence in the game. Why didn't they get a costume of a more popular character? That'd sell more, no?

More than likely a bone that was thrown to Sakurai. It's clear that they know that he wants him in, so that could be a middle ground so to speak.

loud barely crosses over because Square has only recently taken an interesting in lending out there characters. We have not seem them lend so much out until recently. I mean they lent out Cloud, Ardyn, Behemoth, Noctis and 2B all within a short time of each other. Its like they caught the cross promoting bug. Whereas before Square wasn't crazy about lending out there stuff unless they were making the game. And agree Sakurai does have sway, but Sakurai isnt choosing the characters for the DLC, Nintendo is.

And im not debating that DQ sells, im debating that it does not sell well globally and that Square has so far not put in someone in a crossover who isnt globally popular

Square allowed the Geno costume as in trying to appease the fans, but still putting in their cross promoting character who brings them more sales.

Im not saying that its impossible for Nintendo to get Erdrick from Square. Im saying that most of the Smash fanbase keep saying that he's a 95%-98% lock. However if you take away leaks which are shaky at best as Verde Coeden Scalesworth Verde Coeden Scalesworth has stated, you see that the Dragon Quest debate does not have as much momentum as everyone is assuming it does. The problem with a lot of the Smash fans is they take leaks as literal proof, when they should be used more as a strong possibility. This is why when leaks don't turn out to be true people get so outraged, because they already convinced themselves that it is true. When looking at characters especially the ones we want in, we need to be our own devils advocate. Because if not we can let our emotions, versus logic dictate us. Example is even though I knew Ken was strongly rumored, I didn't totally believe it until I saw it. When looking at leaks or even character potential we need to look at it objectively, and not just see all the pros they have.

Let´s not forget the whole Spawn in Injustice debacle as a prime example of never take leaks for granted.

 

[Teeb147]

Cloud barely crosses over because Square has only recently taken an interesting in lending out there characters. We have not seem them lend so much out until recently. I mean they lent out Cloud, Ardyn, Behemoth, Noctis and 2B all within a short time of each other. Its like they caught the cross promoting bug. Whereas before Square wasn't crazy about lending out there stuff unless they were making the game. And agree Sakurai does have sway, but Sakurai isnt choosing the characters for the DLC, Nintendo is.

And im not debating that DQ sells, im debating that it does not sell well globally and that Square has so far not put in someone in a crossover who isnt globally popular

Square allowed the Geno costume as in trying to appease the fans, but still putting in their cross promoting character who brings them more sales.

Im not saying that its impossible for Nintendo to get Erdrick from Square. Im saying that most of the Smash fanbase keep saying that he's a 95%-98% lock. However if you take away leaks which are shaky at best as Verde Coeden Scalesworth has stated, you see that the Dragon Quest debate does not have as much momentum as everyone is assuming it does. The problem with a lot of the Smash fans is they take leaks as literal proof, when they should be used more as a strong possibility. This is why when leaks don't turn out to be true people get so outraged, because they already convinced themselves that it is true. When looking at characters especially the ones we want in, we need to be our own devils advocate. Because if not we can let our emotions, versus logic dictate us. Example is even though I knew Ken was strongly rumored, I didn't totally believe it until I saw it. When looking at leaks or even character potential we need to look at it objectively, and not just see all the pros they have.

There's a lot of people who dont believe in leaks now. I think that it's not very useful to try to attack a character's chances just because some people still do. (wherver they are) In the big picture it all means something and viewing it better usually happens when someone isn't fighting one side or the other. Im very skeptical of a lot of things, and looking at all the sides I could, I think Erdrick is likely because of the leaks. That said, there's reasons i do think that, including with being skeptical, and i've already debated about that in another thread and I didnt have a good experience trying to explain.

As far as I'm concerned, i think it's fine if someone just takes some of it as strong possibility and that's all. People shouldn't push one extreme on people one way or another. Leaving things open is so much better for lighter speculation that people can enjoy. At the end of the day we're just people talking and e3 can be quite fun, especially if we dont obsess over one thing or another.

 

[A.G.L.]

There's a lot of people who dont believe in leaks now. I think that it's not very useful to try to attack a character's chances just because some people still do. (wherver they are) In the big picture it all means something and viewing it better usually happens when someone isn't fighting one side or the other. Im very skeptical of a lot of things, and looking at all the sides I could, I think Erdrick is likely because of the leaks. That said, there's reasons i do think that, including with being skeptical, and i've already debated about that in another thread and I didnt have a good experience trying to explain.

As far as I'm concerned, i think it's fine if someone just takes some of it as strong possibility and that's all. People shouldn't push one extreme on people one way or another. Leaving things open is so much better for lighter speculation that people can enjoy. At the end of the day we're just people talking and e3 can be quite fun, especially if we dont obsess over one thing or another.

I hope you get your wish friend, I apologize if I came off rude. Unfortunately I have had the reverse experience every-time I try to say something objectively about Erdricks chances people immediately tell me that hes a lock because so and so said so. You are correct at the end of the day its good to have hope and we shouldn't criticize each other for wanting one character to be in more than the other. I have a lot of respect for my friend Ovaltine they hope for Geno, but they also are realistic. They aren't afraid to explore the idea that another character might make it in over Geno, and they support fans from other Square groups to me thats really cool!

So hopefully no matter who is chosen for the Square rep, Erdrick, Geno, Sephiroth or Sora.....or Neku ;P. Hopefully we as a Smash fan base can be happy for the people who got their pick in....and then go cry in a corner ha!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem is almost all of the talk of Erdrick being likely came straight from the leaks. We had no real reason to believe he had a decent chance before that. Not with the huge lack of worldwide appeal. The leaks did a lot more for him than the arguments being made alone. A lot of people still don't know who he was before the leaks, which led to discussion of him.

It doesn't mean anything beyond SB, however. I have Erdrick with an above average chance because I don't ignore factors whatsoever. I don't believe in locks by default. That's not a healthy way of looking at it. It doesn't matter inherently if I'm wrong in that regard either. Because I just consider them factors of why it may not happen. I hate to call anything impossible or locks too. It just makes you look bad when you turn out to be wrong. Yes, you could say I'm bragging here. But I don't think anything bar actual hard evidence via leaks(which we do not have at this time) should make a character a lock. Vergeben had an amazing track record in Smash before ones like Isabelle were revealed. He was more convincing to me than the many arguments in her case. As all-stars aren't some guaranteed thing. Her being a pacifist might be a factor. We wouldn't have known if he had time for another semi-clone like her. And so on. For the record, I treated her as a 70%. I was still satisfied with her inclusion... at first. But then I realized she could've been a lot more unique and represented herself better instead of being Villager 2.0, who even Tom Nook could've done the same and feel more accurate. The only thing I in the end got of interest was the Fishing Rod.

 

[TriggerX]

A friend of my actually did the full math.

Since KH's release, DQ has sold more than KH.

KH is currently 17 years old, when DQ was 17 years old it had sold more than what KH has sold now.

I am not trying to deny KH is popular, of course it is, 6 million sales is a behemoth. That said, that is no ground to underestimate the size and presence of DQ and act as if the series was on its last leg lol. To me Sora and Erdrick are on the same ground, Sora having a slight advantage in peak sales but DQ being right behind with consistent sales and having the advantage of being Nintendo related. To me a second FF7 character is hard to happen without causing internal issues on SE.

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Best_selling_Square-Enix_games

Idk I feel like it’s hard to compare. For as long as DQ has been around it total series sales is around 79 million with 30 titles
Kingdom Hearts has about 9 titles released and is already at 30million.

For Kingdom Hearts being such a new series and having almost half of their total sales with a 1/3 of the merchandise is somewhat impressive. It also looks like DQ XI sold about a million less copies than Kh3.

Which is more well known is anyone’s guess, but if I had to make a guess it would be Kingdom Hearts simply because it’s ties with Disney. At least in the US.

 

[Ovaltine]

I hope you get your wish friend, I apologize if I came off rude. Unfortunately I have had the reverse experience every-time I try to say something objectively about Erdricks chances people immediately tell me that hes a lock because so and so said so. You are correct at the end of the day its good to have hope and we shouldn't criticize each other for wanting one character to be in more than the other. I have a lot of respect for my friend Ovaltine they hope for Geno, but they also are realistic. They aren't afraid to explore the idea that another character might make it in over Geno, and they support fans from other Square groups to me thats really cool!

So hopefully no matter who is chosen for the Square rep, Erdrick, Geno, Sephiroth or Sora.....or Neku ;P. Hopefully we as a Smash fan base can be happy for the people who got their pick in....and then go cry in a corner ha!

Aw, thanks, man. I think it's only fair to behave that way. It's just basic human decency. Realistically, Geno's chances are poor and we're likely getting another rep, but I'll never stop hoping that we'll get to see him again someday. Besides, any character that gets in will make someone out there happy, and that's what matters, right?

 

[NomadLuminary]

I like peace and video game franchises. Here's some fan art

Spoiler: Square Enix fanart!

 

[A.G.L.]

I like peace and video game franchises. Here's some fan art

Spoiler: Square Enix fanart!

View attachment 223204


View attachment 223205

View attachment 223208

Loooove that artwork here some I found. Unfortunately I couldn't find one of Erdrick and Sora together .

 

[Teeb147]

I hope you get your wish friend, I apologize if I came off rude. Unfortunately I have had the reverse experience every-time I try to say something objectively about Erdricks chances people immediately tell me that hes a lock because so and so said so. You are correct at the end of the day its good to have hope and we shouldn't criticize each other for wanting one character to be in more than the other. I have a lot of respect for my friend Ovaltine they hope for Geno, but they also are realistic. They aren't afraid to explore the idea that another character might make it in over Geno, and they support fans from other Square groups to me thats really cool!

So hopefully no matter who is chosen for the Square rep, Erdrick, Geno, Sephiroth or Sora.....or Neku ;P. Hopefully we as a Smash fan base can be happy for the people who got their pick in....and then go cry in a corner ha!

Thx, I appreciate the sentiment I will say that I don't visit other boards very often but I did see both extremes, of those thinking erdrick is a lock, as well as those dismissing everything in favor. Sometimes it's also people who are tired of some treating it like a lock. So I get some of what's going on but then you have people that get caught in the mix because of that :/ I'll be glad once things are confirmed or deconfirmed, though I also look forward to the build up towards e3 and seeing what comes :D

I think there's lots of great games out there and i may not like certain ones getting in, but i'm still glad about just the whole thing and gaming culture. Also hoping that people learn to be glad for the games and dlc characters in general

 

[NomadLuminary]

Loooove that artwork here some I found. Unfortunately I couldn't find one of Erdrick and Sora together .


View attachment 223218



View attachment 223213

I gotchu

 

[cmbsfm]

Cloud barely crosses over because Square has only recently taken an interesting in lending out there characters. We have not seem them lend so much out until recently. I mean they lent out Cloud, Ardyn, Behemoth, Noctis and 2B all within a short time of each other. Its like they caught the cross promoting bug. Whereas before Square wasn't crazy about lending out there stuff unless they were making the game.

If their interest is only recent, then I'd argue that it's too early to make an assumption about how they go about lending characters. It's more of DQ hasn't crossed over with something yet rather than it'll never crossover. They just may have not seen a good opportunity to do a crossover, until now if Erdrick really is joining the roster.

And agree Sakurai does have sway, but Sakurai isnt choosing the characters for the DLC, Nintendo is.

Sakurai on Twitteri: "I decide if we can create a character based on their selection."

He clearly has a say in it and Joker literally screams "Sakurai Pick". And Nintendo has a stake in DQ doing well considering their publishing DQ11 in the west, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they'd suggest a Dragon Quest characters.

Square allowed the Geno costume as in trying to appease the fans, but still putting in their cross promoting character who brings them more sales.

My point was that they could've given a costume of a character that is more popular, because like you said they'd make more money. They didn't and licensed out an obscure character.

Im not saying that its impossible for Nintendo to get Erdrick from Square. Im saying that most of the Smash fanbase keep saying that he's a 95%-98% lock. However if you take away leaks which are shaky at best as Chinderblockhas stated, you see that the Dragon Quest debate does not have as much momentum as everyone is assuming it does. The problem with a lot of the Smash fans is they take leaks as literal proof, when they should be used more as a strong possibility. This is why when leaks don't turn out to be true people get so outraged, because they already convinced themselves that it is true. When looking at characters especially the ones we want in, we need to be our own devils advocate. Because if not we can let our emotions, versus logic dictate us. Example is even though I knew Ken was strongly rumored, I didn't totally believe it until I saw it. When looking at leaks or even character potential we need to look at it objectively, and not just see all the pros they have.

I absolutely agree that it's annoying when the smash fanbase treats these things as an absolute confirmation. I'm actually pretty irked that a Microsoft Rep is being treated as 100% just because the two cross promoted Minecraft. Barring leaks, there's nothing suggesting it and I won't be surprised if we don't get one. Nothing guarantees DQ, but I think it's likely. The Brave file doesn't necessarily confirm Erdrick, but it's connection to DQ is something that at least points to its possible conclusion, which is something that 99% of the other speculated characters don't have.

Exactly. Granted, they might take a gamble for the sake of "push the series" here in the west. However, Smash Brothers are not much of a "pusher" ironically. Why you might ask? Look at Fire Emblem. Not until Awakening (which was supposed to be the last at one point I might add) was Fire Emblem a major franchise for Nintendo. And Awakening was the 6 games post-Marth and Roys intro in Melee. For naga's sake... the games with Ike (who is arguably one of, if not the most popular lord in the franchise) are the one that has sold the worst unless Echoes got worse numbers considering Nintendo refuses to release the sales for that entry.

At the same time though, would you feel as though characters like Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, or Ice Climbers would be recognizable now if they were never in Smash? They'd probably be just niche characters with cult followings. I do agree about the Fire Emblem point, but it's important to consider that Smash's installbase has grown since then as it is released on consoles with a larger player base. It's also important to note that nowadays newcomers are getting more marketing and special treatment than they did back then. Erdrick's reveal would be treated as a big deal and pushed in everyone's faces by Nintendo.

 

[Teeb147]

When I was looking up sales I was pretty surprised to see Tomb Raider had so many. It's only just below dragon quest.
I dont hear about Lara very often, but I guess a ton of people would know her.

Dunno if this has been talked about before, but
how would everyone feel if whoever the SE rep is, that all the other ones would become mii costumes?

 

[GoodGrief741]

When I was looking up sales I was pretty surprised to see Tomb Raider had so many. It's only just below dragon quest.
I dont hear about Lara very often, but I guess a ton of people would know her.

Dunno if this has been talked about before, but
how would everyone feel if whoever the SE rep is, that all the other ones would become mii costumes?

I dunno why you're surprised. Tomb Raider is one of the most iconic gaming franchises of all time.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The core of what I am saying here is that there is overestimation of the value of global sales here. I don't see how something that sells a lot and has a big fanbase is a gamble. It selling mostly on one country does not change that. Like, why? Sales are sales. Does selling in two countries multiple your profits by two? No, right? If a game had sold 10 million exclusively on India it would still be a big successful game, DQ has consistently sold 4-6 mi in its main titles over 30 years, it is SE's second most important franchise and the symbol of Enix. It selling 500k on new releases in the west is irrelevant.

There is no financial gamble. DQ has millions of fans, they aren't nonexistent because they aren't from the US. 3 million Japanese costumers is not less than 3 million western costumers. Games can be important even if they are not big in the US.

How would the logic for DQ in smash be different of the logic for SE to make new DQ games and products?

Also, hasn't SE used DQ for crossovers multiple time? Dai, Fortune Street, the basketball game? I am pretty sure DQ is the second SE series with the most crossovers.

Wonderful explanation!

Can I add my 2 cents? I hope I don’t ruin it with my piece of speculation, but here goes.

DQ has something that works in its favor. It still has room to grow. Bad marketing is one of the biggest culprits for DQ not doing too hot in the west, right? Well that should be easily (using the word loosely) fixed, beginning with a DQ DLC fighter pack in smash.
I feel this is important because more DQ games are coming to Switch. Would it make sense to bring in a character that pushes people to other consoles?
Bringing in buyers to a console that HAS the game series that the characters represent, and a future in it as well, is all around just better business. Heck I’d say choosing a character that doesn’t have this, is just there to make a quick buck.


Here’s another tin foil hat theory.
Maybe the reason why a DQ character hadn’t been seen anywhere near Japanese Smash character polls (until recently due to the leaks) is... because maybe DQ fans over there don’t care too much for smash?
Because sales are there to back up how much they love the series. Yet... this doesn’t seem all that evident from a Smash perspective.

What did Reggie say about wanting to draw in more people to Smash? I know it fits here, but I don’t recall the exact words.
Still, it’s something I’ve wrapped my head around recently.

 

[Nemuresu]

What did Reggie say about wanting to draw in more people to Smash? I know it fits here, but I don’t recall the exact words.
Still, it’s something I’ve wrapped my head around recently.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/1...blematic-of-smash-bros-ultimates-dlc-approach

We want all the best content on our platform. All the best content, all the best developers. And so our job is to continue growing the install base for Nintendo Switch to drive engagement of our players, to grow the audience.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

Wonderful explanation!

Can I add my 2 cents? I hope I don’t ruin it with my piece of speculation, but here goes.

DQ has something that works in its favor. It still has room to grow. Bad marketing is one of the biggest culprits for DQ not doing too hot in the west, right? Well that should be easily (using the word loosely) fixed, beginning with a DQ DLC fighter pack in smash.
I feel this is important because more DQ games are coming to Switch. Would it make sense to bring in a character that pushes people to other consoles?
Bringing in buyers to a console that HAS the game series that the characters represent, and a future in it as well, is all around just better business. Heck I’d say choosing a character that doesn’t have this, is just there to make a quick buck.


Here’s another tin foil hat theory.
Maybe the reason why a DQ character hadn’t been seen anywhere near Japanese Smash character polls (until recently due to the leaks) is... because maybe DQ fans over there don’t care too much for smash?
Because sales are there to back up how much they love the series. Yet... this doesn’t seem all that evident from a Smash perspective.

What did Reggie say about wanting to draw in more people to Smash? I know it fits here, but I don’t recall the exact words.
Still, it’s something I’ve wrapped my head around recently.

Smash is a big deal in Japan too but not to that extent like the west. This is just my impression though.
People dedicated in smash know the importance of western appeal. So Japan only characters are tend to get declined rather quickly in a harsh way within the speculation scenes.
People not that into smash talks speak out their demands here and there without knowing their characters are niche and obscure overseas but since they don't have that much of passion towards smash roster, they'll just take whatever they get.
So too western make them not really happy and they'll complain a bit but they won't go rampage like Waluigi troops.
Mentality of shoganai. It cannot be helped.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's not talk discuss fangroups by generalizing them, please.

BTW, that was two actual Waluigi fans that went on a rampage, not the whole group. There is no "Waluigi troops". That paints a bad picture of what happened and is quite inaccurate. All the more reason to not generalize.

 

[Icewolff92]

At the same time though, would you feel as though characters like Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, or Ice Climbers would be recognizable now if they were never in Smash? They'd probably be just niche characters with cult followings. I do agree about the Fire Emblem point, but it's important to consider that Smash's installbase has grown since then as it is released on consoles with a larger player base. It's also important to note that nowadays newcomers are getting more marketing and special treatment than they did back then. Erdrick's reveal would be treated as a big deal and pushed in everyone's faces by Nintendo.

Just because they are recognizable does not mean that their games will sell. Fire Emblem is a prime example of that. Ike got pushed by Nintendo in Smash Brothers yet.. like I told earlier, the games he was in sold piss poor. Speaking about another franchise that has an "iconic character". F-zeros peak in the sale was the GameCube title back in the day. Then they did two GBA titles with the last title released in 2004. Both of these titles sales numbers nosedived into oblivion and are the reasons there has not been an F-zero game in 15 years. Released in the golden era of Melee and to some degree Captain Falcon considering how popular he is to play in that specific game....

Making an assumption that people would just randomly check out a game because they "like it" is a rather naive sentiment. To go back to Fire Emblem. I was at an emulator site one day because I wanted to play Pokemon Crystal that I had borrowed out for a friend that was on a trip. Out of sheer luck, I saw "if you like this you might like that" and Fire Emblem was one of them. I downloaded it, played it and then did my best to track down a copy. That took months I might add.

This is the only known add that they did for Fire Emblem 7 (the first released FE game in the west) is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM-s5C0dnZs&ab_channel=XenoGear and they did not even push it in every country (nor is it any good I might add)

Later comes Path of Radiance which is the first installment of the story with Ike. Not a single add outside some picture in Nintendo Club Magazine. I was lucky to find it at a Game store at that time.

Shadow Dragon? There was no copy I could find for years because I missed the release date due to lack of information. I had to buy it on eBay to get a hold of it. Then they made New Mystery of Emblem and that became a Japanese exclusive because of how poor Shadow Dragon sold. Heck, I did not even know about Awakening because of a trailer that came out of nowhere. No introduction in a direct or something like that.

What I´m trying to say is.. if you want to push the games, you can´t rely on one thing only (in this cause Smash Brothers) to make the series bigger. Truth be told, I would argue that it would have been better to show off the DQ games at E3 no matter if the Square Enix character is Erdick or not. Then people know what type of game Dragon Quest is and you would have got the most eyes on it. To expect people to just randomly check out the game because Smash Bros is a naive business strategy no matter who and what franchise you're talking about. Pushing only the characters into peoples faces can annoy people more than anything which I have heard quite a lot for people about the Joker add.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just because they are recognizable does not mean that their games will sell. Fire Emblem is a prime example of that. Ike got pushed by Nintendo in Smash Brothers yet.. like I told earlier, the games he was in sold piss poor. Speaking about another franchise that has an "iconic character". F-zeros peak in the sale was the GameCube title back in the day. Then they did two GBA titles with the last title released in 2004. Both of these titles sales numbers nosedived into oblivion and are the reasons there has not been an F-zero game in 15 years. Released in the golden era of Melee and to some degree Captain Falcon considering how popular he is to play in that specific game....

Making an assumption that people would just randomly check out a game because they "like it" is a rather naive sentiment. To go back to Fire Emblem. I was at an emulator site one day because I wanted to play Pokemon Crystal that I had borrowed out for a friend that was on a trip. Out of sheer luck, I saw "if you like this you might like that" and Fire Emblem was one of them. I downloaded it, played it and then did my best to track down a copy. That took months I might add.

This is the only known add that they did for Fire Emblem 7 (the first released FE game in the west) is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM-s5C0dnZs&ab_channel=XenoGear and they did not even push it in every country (nor is it any good I might add)

Later comes Path of Radiance which is the first installment of the story with Ike. Not a single add outside some picture in Nintendo Club Magazine. I was lucky to find it at a Game store at that time.

Shadow Dragon? There was no copy I could find for years because I missed the release date due to lack of information. I had to buy it on eBay to get a hold of it. Then they made New Mystery of Emblem and that became a Japanese exclusive because of how poor Shadow Dragon sold. Heck, I did not even know about Awakening because of a trailer that came out of nowhere. No introduction in a direct or something like that.

What I´m trying to say is.. if you want to push the games, you can´t rely on one thing only (in this cause Smash Brothers) to make the series bigger. Truth be told, I would argue that it would have been better to show off the DQ games at E3 no matter if the Square Enix character is Erdick or not. Then people know what type of game Dragon Quest is and you would have got the most eyes on it. To expect people to just randomly check out the game because Smash Bros is a naive business strategy no matter who and what franchise you're talking about. Pushing only the characters into peoples faces can annoy people more than anything which I have heard quite a lot for people about the Joker add.

In fact, Fire Emblem sold fairly poorly till Awakening came out(( think you said that earlier, so maybe this sentence is redundant).

Smash is no inherent awesome selling machine, agreed. To say the least, the DQ-focused direct is what's going to really sell those games. Smash isn't going to cut it. Especially when it doesn't give you an idea of who the playable character is beyond at best their franchise and maybe one game. The lack of Spirit descriptions makes them far less interesting and it won't give people a reason to easily care about them. If you aren't a fan, they do little for you beyond the simple gameplay mechanic.

 

[Namasura]

Hmm. I think DQ's problem has a lot to do with information, and the lack of awareness of the series. When Erdrick speculation started to gain steam on this forum a lot of people showed to not even know the basics like the fact if was older than FF.

Sales wise, DQ is well off, you know? If you look at the numbers of FE and FZero, they are different than the ones of DQ. To me the advantage would be like that of Earthbound and Fire Emblem, to get more people to know about and talk about the games, to spread awareness of what DQ is to an audience who sincerely doesn't know anything about it.

And that is easier to do than to turn that into sales, if a likely fake leak has increased awareness so much, a proper place in Smash would lead to even better results.

And who knows, maybe once the awareness is high the traditionalism of DQ will go from "not catching up with the times" to "charming", like it happens for some Nintendo series.

 

[Icewolff92]

Sales wise, DQ is well off, you know? If you look at the numbers of FE and FZero, they are different than the ones of DQ. To me the advantage would be like that of Earthbound and Fire Emblem, to get more people to know about and talk about the games, to spread awareness of what DQ is to an audience who sincerely doesn't know anything about it.

And how is the lack of information any difference between that of Fire Emblem with everything I just pointed out? Sure, some people got aware of Erdick due to the leak but that´s the hardcore only. The ones that are the vast minority of the fanbase. Smash Bros can only do so much.. Its, not an instant money maker that makes "insert franchise here" as soon as you get into Smash Brothers. I mean, Isaac got a big following even as an assist trophy... Golden Sun has not been given a sequel in 9 years because of poor sales. That's why I´m pointing out that the trailers they show in February would have been a much smarter play to show at E3 no matter who the Square character is since they clearly want to push the franchise in the west. You sell a game because of the gameplay you show, not an actual character.

Smash Brothers can only do so much if something at all. If it was enough then Golden Sun, Earthbound, F-Zero, and Fire Emblem been a striving series since Nintendo 64

 

[Teeb147]

I dunno why you're surprised. Tomb Raider is one of the most iconic gaming franchises of all time.

I've hardly heard people talk about it around other gamers. I remember some of the movies and playing one of the old games,. I knew it was decently known, but didn't think it had that level of sales. It might also be because of the types of gamers i hang around too, who knows.