[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[shocktarts17]

My point was if Piranha Plant and Joker were NOT announced, meaning we don't know they're coming to the game, and the codenames were NOT indicative of the character (meaning no "Packu" or "Jack") would you be able to tell me for a fact that those stats relate to PP and Joker?

We're in a similar situation with Erdrick. If you look at just the stats, would you be able to tell me for a fact whether or not it is Erdrick, a character who's only considered because of the codename and info from leakers ,which may or may not be true?

I've already said I'm not saying it CAN'T be Erdrick, just that it seems weird that it would be based purely on the stats.

If someone showed me Kirby's stats and told me they heard it was for Ridley I'd have doubts there too.

 

[Just a random scrub]

You can speculate all you want, but doing it on the basis of data that is subject to change isn't productive, imho.

Yes, some character stats have changed, but have they ever been drastic changes?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Yeah, trying to justify the character stats as anything feels like a big attempt to grasp at straws. Values change and more importantly, those values could mean any number of things to a character. The next update could nuke the entire discussion by completely changing them for all we know.

There feels like a lot of fundamentally different conversations are going on at the same time in this thread, and lots of people seem to be lumping them altogether into a pretty illogical mess of naturally contradicting statements and ideas also from what I've been catching up on.

Not to mention, these stat values have been given the weight of basically all speculation in the past few days, so people are making bigger stands on them than they probably should.

I think we might need to calm down a bit on the discussion of all of this. There's a lot of crazy things being thrown around when we know relatively little.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

Yes, some character stats have changed, but have they ever been drastic changes?

They have not been overwhelming transformations in playstyle, even though the changes were significant. So no, not really.

 

[shocktarts17]

Not to mention, these stat values have been given the weight of basically all speculation in the past few days, so people are making bigger stands on them than they probably should.

I mean I'd rather argue about facts coded into the game than randomleak#72 that happens to include Joker along with an SE character. You can say what you want about the stats but for the first time we have REAL data about the next fighter and disregarding it as unimportant is silly.

 

[Deleted member]

Issue for the stats is that the only past experience we have with them changing or not is PP, and I would argue that the weight and speed changes were noticeable and change the playstyle. I cant say its wise to put much weight to them unless we have more comparisons to draw from and give certainty that they dont change a lot with other parameters.

 

[shocktarts17]

Issue for the stats is that the only past experience we have with them changing or not is PP, and I would argue that the weight and speed changes were noticeable and change the playstyle. I cant say its wise to put much weight to them unless we have more comparisons to draw from and give certainty that they dont change a lot with other parameters.

Without having played PP before the change it's hard to say but in my experience with other games changing one or two stats usually falls into balance changes more than complete changes to play style. If there are 30 something stats each character has 2 stats changing is only 7% of all the stats, hardly a major change.

 

[Xigger]

Based on what we've seen for Piranha Plant, yes it looks like stats can change.

originally had stats of 94 weight & 1.17 run speed.
Now it has stats of 112 weight & 1.72 run speed.

And the reason why I'm saying those stats we're tied to is b/c those we're the only stats that weren't related to a character when the data was found pre-Ultimate's release. And Plant was the only DLC character known at the time.

I also made threads about the run/air speeds and weights of all characters prior to Ultimate's release, so I have gone through this info before.

Makes sense. Would you mind linking that thread? It could really help all the discussion here.

 

[-Coco-]

Without having played PP before the change it's hard to say but in my experience with other games changing one or two stats usually falls into balance changes more than complete changes to play style. If there are 30 something stats each character has 2 stats changing is only 7% of all the stats, hardly a major change.

To be fair Cloud had identitcal stats to Ike before he was in Smash 4 which I would definitely argue is a big difference in playstyle.

 

[kirby3021]

To be fair Cloud had identitcal stats to Ike before he was in Smash 4 which I would definitely argue is a big difference in playstyle.

That's interesting. Do you have a source you could link for that?

 

[shocktarts17]

To be fair Cloud had identitcal stats to Ike before he was in Smash 4 which I would definitely argue is a big difference in playstyle.

Wouldn't that suggest those were in fact placeholder stats? Brave's don't match with anyone.

 

[-Coco-]

That's interesting. Do you have a source you could link for that?

I'll try to find it. It was on Mizumi's twitter.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

What's the point of being super condescending to every thing I say?

Ummmm, I'm not? I just tend to use a varied vocabulary. Don't mean anything condescending about it.

I never said Marth and Cloud are identical. I said they play similarly and have similar concepts in their playstyle that match the overall basic concepts of sword users.

Again, like I've said before though. There are even fighters outside the sword using circle who match the niche and description of aspects that you described. Trying to decide who the fighter is off of stats from an archetype doesn't really work.

Not to mention, how even within sword archetype you have different groups. It just comes off as odd to say that there's no way it's a swordsman character just based off of a pre-conceived formula that already has notable exceptions to the "rule".

On this note, why is everyone super defensive all of a sudden? Is this really that personal to people because apparently I'm genuinely offending people by expressing doubts and explaining them.

I think there's a grave misunderstanding here. I have no stakes or claims in whether or not it's Erdrick.

If anything, I'm just against the stigma of people trying to claim they're right, either side, over these stats.

People saying it's absolutely Erdrick going on the stats and codename only, are just as annoying as people trying to claim it's not Erdrick, let alone, not a swordsman character, when the guy who actually datamined stuff said it could be anyone, even Sora.

 

[PsySmasher]

Makes sense. Would you mind linking that thread? It could really help all the discussion here.

Sure. Just note that none of the threads have been updated since pre-release:

Run/Air Speed: https://smashboards.com/threads/run-and-air-speed-changes-data-thread.464319/
Weight: https://smashboards.com/threads/weight-changes-data-thread.464295/

Also run speed was originally 1.12 not 1.17, my bad (my memory must've been a bit off).

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

I'm just saying; I'd rather take concrete evidence from Nintendo's own code and analyze it instead of taking the hearsay of some stuck up leakers with nothing backing their claims besides the word of fellow leakers and "trust me guizs"

 

[MajoraMan28]

^^^
While this sounds reasonable, the code is subject to change. This isn't hard evidence. It's mere conditional evidence.
You can't make a case for anything with any of the info we have at hand yet.

 

[FLGibsonIII]

I have to wonder if the leakers know something more concrete that we don't and are holding out on us, or if they just simply heard Erdrick's name a lot.

 

[-Coco-]

I'm just saying; I'd rather take concrete evidence from Nintendo's own code and analyze it instead of taking the hearsay of some stuck up leakers with nothing backing their claims besides the word of fellow leakers and "trust me guizs"

There isn't evidence of the code meaning anything one way or another. It's subject to change and you act like believing the leakers and believeing the code are mutually exclusive.

 

[shocktarts17]

There isn't evidence of the code meaning anything one way or another. It's subject to change and you act like believing the leakers and believeing the code are mutually exclusive.

I mean at the moment they do appear to be pointing in different directions. So one or the other would have to change to make both of them right, and most of the people here seem to think the data is the one that will change so they are kind of saying they trust the leakers over the data.

EDIT: Obviously yes the data could still point to Erdrick as is and that't an possibility too, but most people seem to suggest that the data is wrong/going to change.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

^^^
While this sounds reasonable, the code is subject to change. This isn't hard evidence. It's mere conditional evidence.
You can't make a case for anything with any of the info we have at hand yet.

I agree. But we can't guess if it will change or how it will change, so in the meantime, I think we should just analyze what has been given to us.

 

[Sigran101]

Yeah, the tone I've been getting is much less "I disagree" and more "go **** yourself." Simply put, you're not allowed to have doubt, even if you explain yourself. I came back to this thread because it seemed that it was okay to argue Erdrick and his depiction in Smash again but I apparently need to **** off again so, exit, stage left...

I hope you don't really leave. Many of us really appreciate your posts. I always look forward to seeing your thoughts.

 

[Arcadenik]

Erdrick kind of got the Incineroar/Simon effect. Once they looked likely in the community; a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon just to be "correct".

That's true. Just like what happened when Duck Hunt Dog was leaked. I tried for 12 years to get more supporters but nothing worked. Then the leak happened, suddenly hundreds of people claimed they always wanted Duck Hunt Dog in Smash all along.

 

[wynn728]

Erdrick's original design is the height of a child, though. The adult looking Erdrick design didn't come until a bit later, actually. While this would prove the alts theory/leak parts wrong, it wouldn't be the first time some details of a leak are wrong while others are right.
Additionally, smaller characters tend to be a bit more floaty, which Brave is. Additionally, he has a rather mid running and walking speed, so it would work in that regard too. And finally, being the heaviest mid weight would make sense given his incredibly powerful weapons and armor.

Having played around with the character param files a bit, I'd also like to stress that the height value is very important. If you line up all characters by their height value, they are all just about even. For instance, if you line up characters from tallest to shortest values, they'll go in order. There are very few outliers. Some characters have a pose that makes them slightly taller or a taunt, but that isn't their idle. Isabelle is one of the only characters who is just 1-2 values taller than her stat because of her bun, but her body itself still fits the value. Honestly, this hardly fits any characters I can think of besides Erdrick or Crono. I've seen people suggest BWD, but BWD wouldn't be that much larger than Kirby. And Slime would NEVER be this tall. Never ever. This is way too tall for Slime. Slime would be more around Kirby's size if not smaller. This is like scaling slime up 5 times for some reason and wouldn't make much sense at all. He wouldn't be almost as tall as Mario.

If the size of Brave is shorter than Luigi and the two characters that fit the description is Kid Erdrick and Crono is it possible that Geno could fit the describtion as well? He would be around Mario's height. (I'm sure he's not going to be the Brave character, but it's worth a shot). Or maybe a Bravely Default character since they're chibi.

 

[shocktarts17]

If the size of Brave is shorter than Luigi and the two characters that fit the description is Kid Erdrick and Crono is it possible that Geno could fit the describtion as well? He would be around Mario's height. (I'm sure he's not going to be the Brave character, but it's worth a shot). Or maybe a Bravely Default character since they're chibi.

If you're curious about Brave's height you should check out @ryumo 's stuff he posted in the Brave leak thread about it, very educational.

 

[Luigi The President]

I'm just saying; I'd rather take concrete evidence from Nintendo's own code and analyze it instead of taking the hearsay of some stuck up leakers with nothing backing their claims besides the word of fellow leakers and "trust me guizs"

Funny considering this entire thread has been built on "stuck up leakers" and their "hearsay"

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I'm just saying; I'd rather take concrete evidence from Nintendo's own code and analyze it instead of taking the hearsay of some stuck up leakers with nothing backing their claims besides the word of fellow leakers and "trust me guizs"

I can understand your frustration towards certain leakers but there's no need to over generalize it to all of them. Also they're only the messengers after all, their attitude is irrelevant to speculation, i mean the quality of the information they provide is not influenced by their attitude (take Verg as an example).

Also, the code alone means little (even the codename 'Brave' itself) if not combined with insider's knowledge. Both pieces of the puzzle hold information on their own but the biggest hint towards Erdrick (imo) is that both pieces fit together (particularly the codename and the insiders prediction).

 

[fleshdude.gov]

I can understand your frustration towards certain leakers but there's no need to over generalize it to all of them. Also they're only the messengers after all, their attitude is irrelevant to speculation, i mean the quality of the information they provide is not influenced by their attitude (take Verg as an example).

Also, the code alone means little (even the codename 'Brave' itself) if not combined with insider's knowledge. Both pieces of the puzzle hold information on their own but the biggest hint towards Erdrick (imo) is that both pieces fit together (particularly the codename and the insiders prediction).

Predictions from unofficial sources are not facts, and they should not be treated as such.

Also, in your puzzle analogy, you’re missing the proverbial third piece - the rest of the datamined data.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Predictions from unofficial sources are not facts, and they should not be treated as such.

I agree. I'm sorry if it sounded like as i was treating them as fact, my opinion is that they hold a certain degree of credibility which can vary depending on many factors (having a number of good predictions in the past can boost a leaker's credibility for example). The fact that 'Brave' was discovered in the code gives some credibility (in my point of view) to the leakers that predicted Erdrick. Again, some credibility doesn't make the prediction a fact.

Also, in your puzzle analogy, you’re missing the proverbial third piece - the rest of the datamined data.

This piece is the weirdest one imo, i haven't tried to analyse the stats myself and i'm still confused about what they can tell us. Tbh, since i don't understand all the various interpretations very well, i excluded this part from my reasoning.

edit: Tho, i consider the stats to be even more open to interpretation than the codename. If i had to give an opinion, i'd say that the codename is the best piece of information we got from the code, taking into consideration that the stats could change with a future patch but not the codename (from what we know).

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, some character stats have changed, but have they ever been drastic changes?

PeePee's run speed got doubled which made it go to average from "worse than Incineroar".

To be fair Cloud had identitcal stats to Ike before he was in Smash 4 which I would definitely argue is a big difference in playstyle.

This is untrue, I clesrly remember the Smash4 DLC days and we had ZERO idea of what the three Mario slots were.
Nintendo had learned after Royu, we didn't get any hints to their identities.

 

[-Coco-]

PeePee's run speed got doubled which made it go to average from "worse than Incineroar".

This is untrue, I clesrly remember the Smash4 DLC days and we had ZERO idea of what the three Mario slots were.
Nintendo had learned after Royu, we didn't get any hints to their identities.

https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1081321041073324032

According to Meshima it is true though.

 

[Untouch]

Okay can we stop saying that "Erdrick couldn't have these stats".
Erdrick has never been playable in an action game, he isn't playable in DQ Heroes. Any Smash interpretation of him would be a totally fresh take, there's nothing to go on how he "would" play.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay can we stop saying that "Erdrick couldn't have these stats".
Erdrick has never been playable in an action game, he isn't playable in DQ Heroes. Any Smash interpretation of him would be a totally fresh take, there's nothing to go on how he "would" play.

I keep trying to say this lol, thank you.

 

[-Coco-]

Okay can we stop saying that "Erdrick couldn't have these stats".
Erdrick has never been playable in an action game, he isn't playable in DQ Heroes. Any Smash interpretation of him would be a totally fresh take, there's nothing to go on how he "would" play.

The funny thing is if you want to really reach one could make an argument for Ortega (Erdrick's father) being "floaty"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMxYxP2pKHc

Again it's a reach but still. lol

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if you guys mentioned this yet but Mizumi has tweeted again https://twitter.com/_Mizumi/status/1084911176054657024 basically restating that height doesn't matter without the Model which is good news for Sora and Erdrick, not so much Geno. Not surprised tbh, the Square rep is totally Erdrick. it's kinda frustrating for me that everytime I get hope for Geno it crumbles but whatever Erdrick has his fans and I'm happy for them.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if you guys mentioned this yet but Mizumi has tweeted again https://twitter.com/_Mizumi/status/1084911176054657024 basically restating that height doesn't matter without the Model which is good news for Sora and Erdrick, not so much Geno. Not surprised tbh, the Square rep is totally Erdrick. it's kinda frustrating for me that everytime I get hope for Geno it crumbles but whatever Erdrick has his fans and I'm happy for them.

I do feel for you guys a lot. I'm hoping that SMRPG can one day come back to the spotlight though, it's one of my favorite games.

 

[DaxMasterix]

I do feel for you guys a lot. I'm hoping that SMRPG can one day come back to the spotlight though, it's one of my favorite games.

Not that we aren't used to it anyways, in the end we're gonna still cheering for our puppet, now, some of us mainly focused in a SMRPG revival or at least, A Nintendo's Response about the situation..

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

I do feel for you guys a lot. I'm hoping that SMRPG can one day come back to the spotlight though, it's one of my favorite games.

Just cause you repeat this ad nausiem; doesn't mean I buy it. You have a ****ing DQ icon man; don't pretend like you aren't hyped as hell. Just be honest

 

[Luigi The President]

Just cause you repeat this ad nausiem; doesn't mean I buy it. You have a ****ing DQ icon man; don't pretend like you aren't hyped as hell. Just be honest

Stop being spiteful, you haven't even played SMRPG, liquid just expressed a lot of kindness for our cause and we don't need you pretending he's a "fake" supporter. It's fine to be hype as hell AND feel bad for some fans, which is what he's doing.

 

[DaxMasterix]

Just cause you repeat this ad nausiem; doesn't mean I buy it. You have a ****ing DQ icon man; don't pretend like you aren't hyped as hell. Just be honest

Sorry but you can be Hyped and respectful with the others. This isn't a world where you like thing and consequently you hate the rest.
Sorry liquidmetalslime, OptimisticStrifer, I share the feeling, but don't be a jerk because of it. Again.

 

[Deleted member]

Just cause you repeat this ad nausiem; doesn't mean I buy it. You have a ****ing DQ icon man; don't pretend like you aren't hyped as hell. Just be honest

Woah, that's kiiiiiinda a **** move calling someone out just cause they Like Dragon Quest. Many people Like DQ but that doesn't mean they can't like other games as well and Sure the DQ fans might be Hyped as hell cause why wouldn't they be? Their favorite series might get Representation in Smash! but that doesn't mean they want to see other fans of other games wanting representation in smash to be BTFO'd. Chill, dude Chill.