Spirited Away - Game Thread - Game Over!

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh I missed my slot full claiming my powers as well welp.

 

[Z25]

Oh I missed my slot full claiming my powers as well welp.

I think pretty much everyone has claimed their full character and powers since they dont seem to do much.

Also I’m very interested in your view on Sabrar after catching up and how you would have voted then.

 

[HeuristicCheese]

Is there a reasoning behind this assumption? I was thinking earlier that mafia is biding their time, hoping to get themselves sanctioned in later sanctioning phases when they have more influence over the votes. Their win condition needs them to sanction two of them without regard for how many spirits have been sanctioned before, so getting one (or even more if they're willing to roll the dice on a Banishing) town sanctioned first isn't much of a disadvantage for them. It occured to me that Sabrar may have been universally townread (and sanctioned) partly because mafia didn't want to rock the boat too much and removing a strong town player isn't against their interests.

The assumption is based on the general low activity mixed with the whole sanction phase being something I don't believe anyone here has played with. It certainly feels like mafia waiting to see what town does and town not doing that much either.

HeuristicCheese HeuristicCheese interesting breakdown there. I can’t say I’ve seen posts measured like that before. I have one request though, can we have clarification on who is making each post please? It would help with better reading your metas and knowing who thinks what.

Swiss is the one claiming to be the smarter half. I did breakdown of measuring posts. I'll sign my posts somehow to make it clear which are mine. This type of breakdown I don't think would be squat in a typical game, but this game is anything but typical, I find the lack of activity quite interesting and a little terrifying so this was an attempt to read more into it.


Welcome Red Ryu! The catching up without knowing the results of the flips yet sounds genuine (the consecutive posts with their thoughts up to that point of the game just sounds town and more difficult to fake as mafia).

Looking at Sabrar sanction wagon: z25, bessie, FrozenFlame, me. Start of this phase I had z25 as strong town lean, bessie slight town lean, and FrozenFlame slight scum read. My initial read on FrozenFlame had been town so that's nudged down a bit. I would be quite shocked if somitomi, Darkpit, and FateShirou were mafia and therefore the entire mafia team didn't vote this phase. But otherwise that would mean at least one mafia sheeped my vote on Sabrar which honestly I think would be more likely.

 

[HeuristicCheese]

*ebwop
Above written by HeuryAlone
Haha

 

[somitomi]

in all seriousness, it was partly due to me finding their posts to be too much recaping and less content
gotta start somewhere tbh

Thank you, that wasn't that hard now, was it.

Unfortunate, deadline is Sunday night (early Monday for you and you’ll probably be asleep).
If you’re not posting this weekend (unless we get an extension) you should at least leave us your reads. And your vote if you won't be back.

Yeah, that's partly why I suggested extending the phase. I generally think it would be worthwile given the low activity and Rey Ryu having to catch up.
I was hoping to review the Z25/Frozen fight yesterday, but the garage door fixing took longer than I thought it would, so I can only rely on my initial impression, that it left both sides a bit grimy. I think Z25 is onto something about Frozen's lack of progression, but the case got a bit overblown by taking almost every single post Frozen made and interpreting them in the most damning way possible. Frozen has pointed this out and I'm inclined to think Frozen wouldn't buddy his actual mate like Z25 is suggesting, although there seems to be a weird connection between Frozen and Fate that I can't really place. Overall, I'm leaning towards agreeing with Z25, reinforced slightly by my general townread of the slot.
Coming back to the Fate-Frozen connection for a moment, I don't know if they're really mates and my gut says no, but I do think there's a good chance one of them is a demon here.

Wooo
DarkPit/Red Ryu
Z25
HeuryCheese
bessie
FrozenFlame
FateShirou
Booo
Since I'm not sure when I can come back
##FateShirou
I'm still not seeing much of a solve there, he keeps asking people for their scumreads, but this doesn't appear to factor into his reads in any way. At this point it just looks like he's trying to look busy. I also superbly dislike how he keeps ignoring or dodging questions about his reads or thinking, there's little reason for town to be cagey like this.

 

[FateShirou]

My initial read on FrozenFlame had been town so that's nudged down a bit. I would be quite shocked if somitomi, Darkpit, and FateShirou were mafia and therefore the entire mafia team didn't vote this phase. But otherwise that would mean at least one mafia sheeped my vote on Sabrar which honestly I think would be more likely.

What are your thoughts on me, Z25 and somi scum-reading FF to some degree?

I'm still not seeing much of a solve there, he keeps asking people for their scumreads, but this doesn't appear to factor into his reads in any way. At this point it just looks like he's trying to look busy. I also superbly dislike how he keeps ignoring or dodging questions about his reads or thinking, there's little reason for town to be cagey like this.

in my defense only two people so far have given a top 3 scum list, and im pretty sure we got less than 24 hours

on the extension talk, you have to honestly tell me if you would use the extra time, last time when laser gave us more time we did not use it

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So if "not vote" is essentially a null read, do you have any actual townreads? And if the "not vote" contains everyone you don't have a reason to vote, why is the other group split into "unsure" and "vote"?

I'm kinda baffled by FateShirou's recent activity. He apparently has mafia experience and yet his last reads list is pure newbie weirdness, there's a couple short sentences about everyone, but it's rather surface level and seems kind of non-committal to me. Comparing it with the "vote-not vote" list in #258 I can't see much correlation between the two.

##FateShirou
for now, because I can't wring anything sensible out of rereading the thread.

I don’t understand the focus here with this vote.

inconsistent voting? Sure I can get that but you seem to hard focus on the wording of not voting. It’s day 1 I don’t expect someone to have a super solid read list or be so solid on someone being town.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I actually really like somi's case on him as well. I'll bite.

##Fate

no bad.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There is an interesting case to be made and yeah their voting pattern is odd but honestly so is Swiss’s like I pointed out.

AFAIK we can prove fates role but I don’t think we have a claim or can prove Swiss’s. If we can then please remind me.

This is why I say we wait to vote fate. If they prove their role and their target has that Asterik we know they aren’t lying about their cookie role.

That doesn’t mean they can’t be scum, but I see no point in scum having this as a role. It be disrupting the balance if scum got a role that in most games would auto confirm them as town and get no questions asked.

But that’s just my thoughts atm.

But roles are randomized along with flavor. Unless he think and consider why a person did what they did I see little reason to use this as a reasoning to clear a person.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When you say I do you mean you or do you mean me?

Anyway:

My point was that Swiss, when they asked for a mass claim they didn’t know the fact of the setup being random to my understanding. That means that they asked for a mass claim out of nowhere day one thinking it was a normal game, refused to try and prove themselves if they were town. As they should think of claiming in this scenario Since it makes sense to help their story. Which is why random roles or not I don’t get their reasoning here. My other problem is still in the random voting and switching when they had the votee push back and their wasn’t much of a natural progression with these votes. Which I find more problematic than anything else.

Ive just been stating my thoughts and perspective. I could definitely be over thinking it but my thoughts on thepower roles are way less of the treason I suspect Swiss of being scum.

I think he asked for a mass claim because Swiss in the past usually has tried to rely as much as they could on play versus not getting super caught up in mechanics.

I would have disagreed with a mass claim but I tend to disagree with this unless it’s a hugely town leaning set up on day one.

I think they are trying feel around and get an idea for other players, this is how I read it. I don’t hard town read them but compared to other players it left a better impression on me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People are focusing too much on use dog picture stuff with bessie being fluff.

I treat it as just giving off a mood to a post or event. Like now where I feel like I am on a good mood being back in mafia.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I like Z25 so far and maven's play was 100% his town meta so comfy townlean there still

why are you town meta reading maven? Yes it’s atypical play but I never read stuff like this as town reading meta wise.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Top of page 12 going to take this to a treadmill abs keep reading one moment

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Page 12 Sabrar sticks out to me more. I think this is a better analysis of the game and set up that reads more townie townie.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Z25 =/= frozen does not read like a buss on page 13.

 

[Z25]

But roles are randomized along with flavor. Unless he think and consider why a person did what they did I see little reason to use this as a reasoning to clear a person.

When I posted that I had not realized the roles were randomized which is why I had that thought process.

 

[bessie]

top three scum lets go

Ok. Gut reads list without a reread, up to the post I’m quoting.

Woof
Darkpit/Red Ryu
HeuristicCheese
Z25
Frozen Flame
FateShirou
somitomi
Grr

For Darkpit there’s not a lot to work with so mostly my overall impression form phase 1.
[Pre post edit Red Ryu as done a lot of catching up, from my initial read Red Ryu can stay at the top of my list.]

I’m still working on my read of Z25 vs Frozen, Z25 is currently higher in my list because I like his overall content.

For the record I see on page 5 people talking about why we do not mass claim. I’m against it in this case because I think it can limit scum and if they get caught in a lie it’s a free lynch.

Roles are vanilla and random to alignment, so it doesn’t make any sense to false claim. This has been discussed extensively.

That reminds me I still have a bunch of one-shot gifts I forgot about because they’re pretty worthless, if anyone wants one.

We’re the early Sabrar town reads meta based?

Somewhat, I had a secret meta reason, but because I outed it in the previous game it is no longer fully reliable.

This is referring to my super secret meta tell for Sabrar. Which after this post I can never use again. If Sabrar posts before 7:00 am he’s town. Refer to these two posts in this game:

From my opening post in this game:

Right on time.

Looking at Sabrar sanction wagon: z25, bessie, FrozenFlame, me. Start of this phase I had z25 as strong town lean, bessie slight town lean, and FrozenFlame slight scum read. My initial read on FrozenFlame had been town so that's nudged down a bit. I would be quite shocked if somitomi, Darkpit, and FateShirou were mafia and therefore the entire mafia team didn't vote this phase. But otherwise that would mean at least one mafia sheeped my vote on Sabrar which honestly I think would be more likely.

I don’t usually do wagon analysis because I doubt the usefulness in a regular game. This is a little different though because of the sanction mechanic. I still don’t see there is much to get from it because there was no viable counterwagon except Darkpit, who was being pushed by Sabrar.

Above written by HeuryAlone
Haha

Haha, is this a reference to my Meta Mafia game?
[I modded a Meta Mafia game a few years ago and the posting restriction of the player that was playing as Heury was to use haha often, and never lol.]

Thank you, that wasn't that hard now, was it.

Yeah, that's partly why I suggested extending the phase. I generally think it would be worthwile given the low activity and Rey Ryu having to catch up.
I was hoping to review the Z25/Frozen fight yesterday, but the garage door fixing took longer than I thought it would, so I can only rely on my initial impression, that it left both sides a bit grimy. I think Z25 is onto something about Frozen's lack of progression, but the case got a bit overblown by taking almost every single post Frozen made and interpreting them in the most damning way possible. Frozen has pointed this out and I'm inclined to think Frozen wouldn't buddy his actual mate like Z25 is suggesting, although there seems to be a weird connection between Frozen and Fate that I can't really place. Overall, I'm leaning towards agreeing with Z25, reinforced slightly by my general townread of the slot.
Coming back to the Fate-Frozen connection for a moment, I don't know if they're really mates and my gut says no, but I do think there's a good chance one of them is a demon here.

Wooo
DarkPit/Red Ryu
Z25
HeuryCheese
bessie
FrozenFlame
FateShirou
Booo
Since I'm not sure when I can come back
##FateShirou
I'm still not seeing much of a solve there, he keeps asking people for their scumreads, but this doesn't appear to factor into his reads in any way. At this point it just looks like he's trying to look busy. I also superbly dislike how he keeps ignoring or dodging questions about his reads or thinking, there's little reason for town to be cagey like this.

Thank you for getting this posted before you went V/LA for the weekend.

in my defense only two people so far have given a top 3 scum list, and im pretty sure we got less than 24 hours

on the extension talk, you have to honestly tell me if you would use the extra time, last time when laser gave us more time we did not use it

We should have about 30 hours remaining. somitomi already said he would be gone for the weekend, and deadline is very early Monday morning in his time zone (Europe). If we have another 24 hours then he has Monday night to post.

too much on use dog picture stuff with bessie being fluff.

I treat it as just giving off a mood to a post or event. Like now where I feel like I am on a good mood being back in mafia.

FINALLY someone gets it.

 

[FateShirou]

Woof
Darkpit/Red Ryu
HeuristicCheese
Z25
Frozen Flame
FateShirou
somitomi
Grr

ok
this is excellent
i have a susipicion that you bessie are unable to come up with theories or any content what-so-ever because you are scum and you know our alignment

why is fate scum, why is ff scum and why is somi scum
go a bit further why do you read darkpit as your highest town rating?

 

[bessie]

ok
this is excellent
i have a susipicion that you bessie are unable to come up with theories or any content what-so-ever because you are scum and you know our alignment

why is fate scum, why is ff scum and why is somi scum
go a bit further why do you read darkpit as your highest town rating?

Interesting. I have a suspicion that this response is because you do not like your placement on my list. How about you come up with some reasons you think I am scum, instead of just throwing out an accusation?

And, um, is my placement of somitomi on the bottom of my list like a total complete surprise to you? You really never saw any indication in my content that I might be scum reading him? Or to a lesser extent you? Have you even read anything I have posted or are you ignoring all my content because you don't like my style?

 

[bessie]

Reads.

Darkpit/Red Ryu
I do not usually spend a lot of time analyzing my town reads so there won’t be much to this read. I would normally have had an early ping because Darkpit was the first to claim, and I generally don’t like early D1 claiming, but as has been discussed this game is not normal mafia mechanics. Most of Darkpit’s early content was general and not on specific players, but content improves on page 4 where he starts digging into Swiss for his reads. Darkpit continues with more game mechanics discussion, he is thinking about judgement, and I like the thinking ahead. I like Red Ryu’s catch up posts on pages 16-17, that he started at the beginning of the game and is giving his reads on the content as he is reading without taking into account the flips.

HeuristicCheese (Swiss/HeuryAlone)
Swiss’s early content (the LAMIST type remarks, and putting himself at the bottom of his town-scum list) are things he has done in the games I previously played with him and I feel they are NAI for Swiss (I haven’t played with Swiss where he was scum). Before Swiss got busy with RL he posted a daily catch up post with his current town-scum list, I like this because in keeping this list he is making a read on every player every day, so we always know what he is thinking. I am noting that on D1 Swiss was tied for leading the votes but did not make a self-preservation vote in #319 to the other vote leader which was FateShirou, and instead voted for somitomi (review this after any of these players flip). I like Heury’s entrance #498 he’s thinking about the game mechanics. Note that HeuristicCheese was the first vote for Sabrar D2. Thinking more about post #612, I don’t think there is anything useful to be gained from this post count analysis but I like that HeuristicCheese is trying out a different analysis (see also 643). I am currently town leaning HeuristicCheese but they need some reads and a town-scum list and not just game mechanics discussion or they will move down on my list.

Maven/Z25
I had Maven as neutral; I felt his early posts (not reading the rules, claiming) that he was being town read for were NAI. For Z25 I had an early ping from some things he posted re roles, and that it seems to take a while for Z25 to get that roles were randomized to alignments. Related to this was Z25’s early suspicion of Swiss for not proving his power on D1 and clearing himself, when this would have been NAI since the roles were randomized. I thought initially Z25 was going to try to make a meta read on me (he said my content hadn’t felt the same as usual) which would have been suspicious because we only played one game together and Z25 claimed they hadn’t visited the DGames forum recently, but he cleared this up and said that he had followed other games. I like that with his D1 vote of Swiss Z25 gave analysis and reasons for his vote. Re D2 Z25’s analysis of Frozen, I don’t agree with #502 that the quoted posts were scummy, I read the early game aggression as opposite. I agree with #503 that Frozen moving his vote to Laser instead of Swiss is suspicious in retrospect, because it appeared FateShirou was going to be the D1 elimination. I like Z25’s response in #538 (not as much #540). I feel Z25’s content has been good in that he is asking and responding to questions and am leaning town.

Frozen Flame
Frozen starts D1 with aggressive content and early reads, I like that with his suspicions he gives reasons, and I feel the early aggression moved the game forward. Frozen questions somitomi on false claiming (similar to my early questioning). Most of Frozen’s D1 suspicion is of Swiss, but he is also questioning other players. There is some interesting interaction between Frozen and Darkpit and I’m not yet sure what to make of it (review page 5-6 after either flips). Frozen has extended periods where he is absent for a couple days (but so do others). Frozen returns near deadline #360 and switches his vote from Swiss to LaserGuy (it appears he is still scum reading both). FateShirou follows this vote and Frozen is hard townreading FateShirou. Frozen is thinking about the sanction and judgement mechanics early in the game which I like. D2 re Frozen’s reply to Z25 starting at #529, I find his overall reaction interesting. I believe Frozen makes some valid points like his response to the accusation of throwing shade in early game, but I think he weakens his argument when he accuses Z25 of doing the same thing. I feel Frozen’s response to Z25 in #542 is an overreaction; Z25 did have some valid points. In retrospect, I find the D1 vote switch to LaserGuy suspicious because FateShirou and somitomi appeared to be more likely eliminations (even though Sabrar and I both had expressed suspicion of LaserGuy) so I think this will need to be looked at more closely after any of these players flip.

FateShirou
I had an early ping on FateShirou for his claim that he was keeping track of claims, but missed that Swiss claimed. FateShirou did not respond to my early question re false claims and needed to be prodded to answer (as he needed prods to answer other questions and not just from me), and when he did answer the answer didn’t make sense. On D1 FateShirou was suspicious of Swiss based on his role (vote related power), this was discussed extensively and it took until D2 before FateShirou dropped this reason for suspecting Swiss (and interestingly he didn’t ask Swiss to confirm his power on D2). FateShirou was also suspicious of FrozenFlame for his role (bus driver). I feel FateShirou was looking for easy excuses to label Swiss and Frozen scum; the fact that he did it twice and took until D2 to drop it is very suspicious. FateShirou made an error in #509 where he tris to cast suspicion on Swiss for voting Laser on D1, but Swiss didn’t vote for LaserGuy. FateShirou is suspicious of me for my posting style but again I think that his complaints are just an excuse to make a scum read, in pointing out the style and not the content. Leaning scum.

somitomi
For my D1 suspicion on somitomi, refer to my analysis in post #457.

Analysis
1. somitomi completely fails to understand my initial ping; I explained several times so I think this is deliberate. He also fails to recognize that his reactions are reinforcing my suspicion.
2. somitomi’s votes have all been for weak scum reads (he has said that his vote for FateShirou and Swiss were weak and he was sheeping with the Swiss vote, and in #441 he claims his suspicion of me is to a lesser extent than Swiss).
3. somitomi is concerned LaserGuy is buddying him and claims that he is scum reading LaserGuy, but has not voted for him.
4. somitomi ends the day with a vote on me in #446 for “wine-adjacent and gut-feely” reasons, even though in #440 I was a weak suspicion (lesser than Swiss) and Laser was a possible scum read.

Moving to D2, I feel that it took too long for somitomi to understand what I originally found suspicious in his claim, and that he still does not understand why I was suspicious of his reaction to this line of questioning, and I feel this is deliberate. I think it is unfortunate that he will be V/LA for the remainder of the phase (barring extension) but I do like that somitomi made #645 before he left for the weekend.

 

[bessie]

I think it’s easier to work on pairs. Trios has so many possibilities that it’s way harder to narrow down, at least with one scum flip we can gain a better understanding and better chance at nailing a duo than a trio imo. Trios will usually work to separate themselves, but duos can end up smartly communicating with mates throughout the game in my personal experience. So I think it’s better to start small than big there.

I started to think about this and might work on it tomorrow if I have time.

 

[FateShirou]

Frozen returns near deadline #360 and switches his vote from Swiss to LaserGuy (it appears he is still scum reading both). FateShirou follows this vote and Frozen is hard townreading FateShirou. Frozen is thinking about the sanction and judgement mechanics early in the game which I like.

tinfoil theory

Scum FF comes into chat and sees a leading wagon with somi, decides to better to townread one of the most scumread people(me) and get rid of what in their eyes are a stronger town player in laserguy, they know what our alignment is

Whats more beneifical for scum to die, me, somi or laserguy? it definetly wasnt me since i was being scum-read so much B1. they can push for me whenever they wanted as i didnt really have a good S1 either

##FrozenFlame

Interesting. I have a suspicion that this response is because you do not like your placement on my list. How about you come up with some reasons you think I am scum, instead of just throwing out an accusation?

And, um, is my placement of somitomi on the bottom of my list like a total complete surprise to you? You really never saw any indication in my content that I might be scum reading him? Or to a lesser extent you? Have you even read anything I have posted or are you ignoring all my content because you don't like my style?

are you serious, why would i care about my placement on ur list, I'm loud and obnoxious as town and im playing that style here, does it work? no LOL


and yes i read ur back and forth with somi and all ur posts regarding somi, are you going to vote for them now or what?

 

[somitomi]

I'm back, baby!

in my defense only two people so far have given a top 3 scum list, and im pretty sure we got less than 24 hours

You've asked several people who their scumreads were on D1 as well and I haven't seen any indication that the replies have influenced your opinion in any way. You also seem to be rather preoccupied with other people's reads and that's not a particularly townie mindset.

on the extension talk, you have to honestly tell me if you would use the extra time, last time when laser gave us more time we did not use it

Funny, I could've sworn some vote shuffling took place in the extra time. What I really want to know is why you're in such a hurry to end the phase all the time. What negative impact does an extension have?

and yes i read ur back and forth with somi and all ur posts regarding somi, are you going to vote for them now or what?

Perhaps it escaped your notice that bessie was the first to vote me on D1 and didn't switch until the very last moment.

 

[Z25]

I started to think about this and might work on it tomorrow if I have time.

I do think in reading your reads lists, we could make a good set of trios depending on the flip today. I still think starting with Duos is better because if we nail a second scum, we then have two scum players to look at and see how they interacted with everyone and if anyone else in particular has had weird interactions with those scum that could lead to the third scum flipping.

tinfoil theory

Scum FF comes into chat and sees a leading wagon with somi, decides to better to townread one of the most scumread people(me) and get rid of what in their eyes are a stronger town player in laserguy, they know what our alignment is

Whats more beneifical for scum to die, me, somi or laserguy? it definetly wasnt me since i was being scum-read so much B1. they can push for me whenever they wanted as i didnt really have a good S1 either

##FrozenFlame


are you serious, why would i care about my placement on ur list, I'm loud and obnoxious as town and im playing that style here, does it work? no LOL


and yes i read ur back and forth with somi and all ur posts regarding somi, are you going to vote for them now or what?

This was my main point with Frozen the other day. Their change I’m vote and how it leads to others changing feels less like town, more like a scum coming in to take advantage of the vote. I don’t see Frozen naturally changing votes unless it’s to save someone.

I also bought up that Laser was a strong player, taking him out day one of you thought you could as scum is absolutely a play I would expect from FF. After all they talked about how great at the game they were.

 

[FateShirou]

Funny, I could've sworn some vote shuffling took place in the extra time. What I really want to know is why you're in such a hurry to end the phase all the time. What negative impact does an extension have?

cuz you guys wont use it
if there isnt an urgency to get things done town becomes lax
JFC somi
when are you going to do something besides quote my posts

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When is the deadline?

 

[Xivii]

The deadline is in roughly 10 hours and ten minutes.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Z25 and FF are playing damn good theater if they are on the same team, even me versus Bessie when we were mates had some holes in it last time I played as scum.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nothin about this screams, pro town or pro scum. Its exactly as you said, uneeded. Need I remind you though.
You literally kick started the wagon for Laser, by asking others if they wanted to vote for him, or bringing up your thoughts on him.

Despite as I said, your reads were not on Laser, before you came back. The progression here feels bad to me, which Is why I didn't like the way the wagon went down.

If I was in the game I don't think I would have pushed Laser like people did tbh.

This feels like the last game I played in DGames when Laserguy got lynched day 1 because people just bandwagoned, he was off, and it felt weak sauce. Here I am still trying to grasp whyhe got lynched outside of a scramble lynch.

bessie, FateShirou, Sabrar, FrozenFlame

bessie
FateShirou
Sabrar
#HBC | FrozeηFlame

Could you all give me a run down again of why you voted for laser guy over say anyone else? I think I would have rather pushed Somi or Sabrar if I were around, though Sabrar did improve at the end of day 1 in my eyes.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So if bessie did the same thing I was doing earlier, why do you want to flip bessie first?
Oh, and that doesn't really answer the question about bessie's case.

I was basically following Z25, yes.

No, I'm annoyed because you never addressed the logical problem I pointed out several times. I guess I can only blame myself for spilling wine over it, but it's still frustrating that you don't even acknowledge this issue with your theory.

Naturally I do, but clarifying takes time and I wasn't sure it'd be a worthwile to invest it in a debate that was rather stuck in a loop at that point.

I've been scum with Frozen once (it was my second game on the site) and I think we didn't interact a lot in the game thread, just enough to not make the lack of interaction obvious. I don't know if that's what he always does as scum, but I don't think having a new teammate is any reason to buddy them in thread.

Frozen already clarified that tunneling remark on P2 after LaseGuy similarly interpreted tunneling as scumreading [#55], although he did scumread Sabrar later, so I think this argument about what tunneling means isn't very relevant here.

Am I wrong to think when I read answer and previous posts here, this is arm chair stuff that doesn't push any real direction? When I play mafia I try to make my thoughts clear and then push a direction to get moving.

I keep seeing this with Somi where they make posts, but what is this doing for town or anyone really?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Started with reread of D1 Z25. Nothing pinged me as scummy, his tunnel on Swiss looked townie to me due to misinformed pov.

---
Sidenote: FateShirou displays the same at various points, however in his case I'm just a tiny bit paranoid and can imagine a scum-buddy advising him to ramp up his style. Outbursts like #413 are either honest or extremely calculated. And yes, I'm aware that that is not a good read.
---

Next I had a look at D1 FrozenFlame before re-reading Z25's case so I could have a fresh and hopefully impartial view.

• I don't like the 'protip' in #48 because it just doesn't make sense. Giving a cookie offers no actual mechanical benefit or disadvantage, signalling a sus can be stated instead in the thread itself, if FateShirou is sanctioned then the meaning has to be explained before so that we can interpret it and the cookie can be refused. There is no possible scenario where FateShirou not 'showing his hand' is beneficial.
• not liking #154 after #153. If FrozenFlame thinks that Darkpit's answer signals "like don't look at me, ask everyone else please." then I don't believe scumbuddies distancing themselves is a thought that would normally occur to him as the whole exchange would be scripted in this case and much more polished.
• #370 hasn't aged well but otherwise getting townie vibes from FrozenFlame's content near (original) deadline.
• I find it funny how FrozenFlame explains in #459 that he is sus of Swiss and LaserGuy for 'buddying' him, and then does completely the same to me in #463, #464 and #466.

Now we can take a look at Z25's case starting in #502:
"This is just the start of Frozen trying to throw shade so to speak on random users. Which makes no sense as a day one play from town."
Disagree, expressing a sus is not necessarily 'throwing shade'.

"A few posts later and now frozen is trying to frame Sabrar as setting them up to tunnel others."
It has already been clarified by FrozenFlame that this was not the reason.

"-Laser is buddying Frozen?

How da hell does this make any sense. The two laser posts I quoted show nothing of the sort. Laser has literally only responded to them twice at this point, and that behavior sure as hell wasn't buddying."
The quoted post LaserGuy saying that FrozenFlame is likely town. FF already explained how he saw that as buddying. This read is incorrect and exaggerated.

"From an outside perspective, it would have made no sense to town read Maven,"
Why? I've also town-read Maven.

"Fate and Frozen starting buddying each other here to push the Laser Lynch."
Why do you think that scum-buddies would be openly buddying?

I'm going to stop here. Z25 brings up some good points on occasion but overall the case seems to be very biased.

I like FrozenFlame's response in #529 except for this part:
"you love to repeat "pit is playing well" and similar vacuous but positive descriptions of his play without actually unpacking how you determined his play to actually be genuine townie. you're literally just describing his play as good/town over and over without giving reasons for it and act like we're just supposed to take your word for it. "
I town-read Darkpit for pretty much the same things that Z25 does and Z25 actually gave his reasons for doing it. The characterization described above is incorrect.
FrozenFlame continues to misrepresent Z25's statements in #533 (also pointed out later by Z25) and it feels he's misrepresenting Darkpit as well in #536.

Finally I really like Z25's response in #540.

So what is my conclusion? I have no freaking idea. I will let you know later. Or maybe not. It just hurts my head.

If you had to pick one of the two to lynch, who would you lynch and why?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If fate and frozen are both scum, they could have had the idea to push laser because they saw him as a stronger player. Laser is pretty experienced at these games and usually can contribute pretty well and they seem to be liked a lot in games I’ve seen or played with them. If I thought I could set up an easy lynch of a strong town player, I’d do it.

Like I said the Frozen reason doesn’t add up. You dont 180 like that. Not to mention continually ignoring these evidence i put for Dark Pit town just doesn’t make sense either imo as I’ve been saying.

Ok so back up a bit and lets says Frozen is town, just hypothetically.

Then what do we do?

You seem pretty focused on FF, but I don't know where else you stand on things off hand.

I ain't taking notes like I usually do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sabrar was town so guess my read was off there, whoops.

Vote for me
FriendShirou
Pros:
You get rid of a question mark (me) and get my confirmed town read

Cons:
I'm up there if we reach judgment phrase

xD

I'm not comfortable voting for darkpit
im still would rather look at other options
Swiss or Z25 or sabrar(tho the more i see them post the more vary i am of them)


Like what is this?
theres two votes right now and they arnt on the same player
what early hammer are we avoiding ?

I will be around till EoD
lets hope more people show up then on banish 1

I dislike the bolded.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I need to rethink my reads given that Sabrar flip and how it was pushed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hate that I am flip flopping on FF and Fate the more I read into the game.

I don't think Z25's case is super compelling in my eyes but the back and forth really makes me think they are not aligned with each other. If Z25 or FF flipped one alignment I am thinking I would banish/sanction the other.

In terms of numero uno who I want gone.

##somitomi

I keep reading their posts but get nothing out of it. Lots of observations but I don't get any idea of where they want to vote and what direction they want to go.

Swiss Hydra has also been disappointing me in a similar fashion, I remember the slot posted stuff but then what do I remember or get out of it? I cannot recall and frankly for more recent stuff observations and posts on activity but what does this lead me to think or do? I don't get anything out of this.

What I get out of FF v Z25 is if one flips scum the other is cleared in my eyes. If I had to lynch between FF and Z25 and leaning more Z25 since I did like FF's earlier posts but at the same time Z25's pro active accounts come off to me as townie instead of scummy. But I do dislike the tunnel like way the case went, since I don't feel confident where Z25 would go and how they have developed their reads outside of FF.

Part of my dislike of Fate is more so I got their mentality earlier but more recent posts feel reachy and not giving me an A-B of how they obtained their thought process. Could be newer behavior but it doesn't feel right to me on a gut side of things.

##PraytoLaserGuy

I also want to see people post more given holiday weekend and monday I think would see more activity.

I need to go handle somethings so for now gonna put this here and see where we go.

But my pool is Somitomi, Swiss Hydra and Fate. Distant Z25 as potential since I feel more likely to find scum between FF and Z25 versus Bessie right now.

 

[Z25]

If I was in the game I don't think I would have pushed Laser like people did tbh.

This feels like the last game I played in DGames when Laserguy got lynched day 1 because people just bandwagoned, he was off, and it felt weak sauce. Here I am still trying to grasp whyhe got lynched outside of a scramble lynch.

bessie, FateShirou, Sabrar, FrozenFlame

bessie
FateShirou
Sabrar
#HBC | FrozeηFlame

Could you all give me a run down again of why you voted for laser guy over say anyone else? I think I would have rather pushed Somi or Sabrar if I were around, though Sabrar did improve at the end of day 1 in my eyes.

I think pushing laser just came kinda of out of nowhere, that I don’t see this lynch haven’t naturally formed. There feels like more intent was put into the laser bus considering the rest of that phase had gone the opposite direction from laser. Maybe scum just capitalized on an easy lynch from someone who was considered suspicious early that day, and it doesn’t matter that it’s late specifically. I do have a feeling though laser was a more likely target though.

Ok so back up a bit and lets says Frozen is town, just hypothetically.

Then what do we do?

You seem pretty focused on FF, but I don't know where else you stand on things off hand.

I ain't taking notes like I usually do.

It’s cause I’m that convinced that FF is scum.

If they aren’t though, I already said, it’s absolutely worth looking at the hydra. I still don’t find any of their content to really contribute, it’s just a lot of question asking which feels like it comes from the perspective of a scum who knows every role and therefore is struggling to naturally direct things in their favor.

Besides them though,I would look at Fate and Somi. Decent change between them that one is scum and the other might not be or both are, but I can’t see that because they are opposing each other pretty big so far.

So that’s where I would be going if FF flips town. The FF flip still gives us a lot of info considering their interactions and how many people have weighed in on the slot so far.

 

[Xivii]

Vote Count [B2-1]

FateShirou | 1/4 | somitomi
FrozenFlame | 1/4 | Fateshirou
somitomi | 1/4 | Red Ryu

Not Voting: FrozenFlame, bessie, Z25, HeuristicCheese

Spoiler: History

som, shi
shi, fro
ryu, som

With 7 players in Limbo, it takes 4 to banish.
The deadline for Banish 2 is Sunday, the 30th at 10:00 pm MT.

 

[FateShirou]

##PraytoLaserGuy

 

[FateShirou]

Ok so back up a bit and lets says Frozen is town, just hypothetically.

Then what do we do?

You seem pretty focused on FF, but I don't know where else you stand on things off hand.

there isnt anything we do because if that happens
we reach judgement day

Could you all give me a run down again of why you voted for laser guy over say anyone else? I think I would have rather pushed Somi or Sabrar if I were around, though Sabrar did improve at the end of day 1 in my eyes.

yes perhaps somi was the better option
i voted for them because of their flip flopping on me and the reasoning to do so
i was not around for EoD to see what they posted afterwards unfortunately

 

[Z25]

Hopefully if we extend this phase the rest of the players can contribute something:

##praytolaserguy