Sorry but this has to be said: Be More Careful Using Fair

illinialex24 · Jun 30, 2009

It has 31 frames of ending lag, lasts almost a second when the move doesn't hit, and has 30 frames of landing lag. It also doesn't have good DI options after using it, IE, you use it, better hit or it is a free hit. If you land at the wrong time, you could be vulnerable for 60 frames before you can do something.

It also hits in 6 frames, which means its a fairly fast aerial, very quick to pull out. IE, its great for punishing air dodges and the like. Its much faster than pound and it has an 11 frame hitbox, so its a pretty good lag punisher. But if you miss, you miss badly.

Enjoy

Player-1 · Jun 30, 2009

IDK, I never see many Diddys, especially good ones, getting punished from a Fair too much, probably because a SH rising fair lands with no lag and that's the time it is used most. But yeah, i guess it's nice to know the frame data and everything just for the hell of it.

Edit: I just remembered, the only time I really ever land with the Fair landing lag is when I Bair> Fair people, and that usually hits people because you can tell if it's going to hit when you use the bair so I could just not use it.

illinialex24 · Jun 30, 2009

Just saying, this is very high lag data. Pound has 17 frames of lag ending wise and its considered laggy, this has almost twice as much and about similar DI options or worse.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jul 1, 2009

illinialex24 said:
Just saying, this is very high lag data. Pound has 17 frames of lag ending wise and its considered laggy, this has almost twice as much and about similar DI options or worse.

Almost twice? 17x2=34>30. Anyway, Fair is still a safe and abusable move. Lag isn't that big of a deal anyways because you should know how to get past it.

B.A.M. · Jul 1, 2009

???? what was the point of that math. To concur with the OP?

DFEAR · Jul 1, 2009

he is just saying to be more careful :3. but yea cancels ftw?

Dekar173 · Jul 1, 2009

shFF'd fair is where it's at.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jul 1, 2009

I just wanted to be an a-hole and correct his math because that's what I do.

DFEAR · Jul 1, 2009

nobody pointed it out goose but its mkay o.o hope u didnt forget to wipe.

oh and the only time i was ever punished with a fair was when i am trading hits o.o

GooseMainsDiddy · Jul 1, 2009

Is there anyway for me to get a fair in after I trip someone? I'm guessing no because I try it all the time and it has become a habit for me.

DFEAR · Jul 1, 2009

ive seen it done ive done it .its a really short sh and ff. u could always trip>da>footstool> ff fair

at low%'s

demonictoonlink · Jul 1, 2009

Hi Dekar!
Also, Goose doesn't realize how close 34 is to 30...Everyone was thinking this but nobody was saying it, so yeah...You failed, goose...

GooseMainsDiddy · Jul 1, 2009

No I passed math.

Thanks DFEAR.

ADHD · Jul 1, 2009

Fair is godly anyway.

illinialex24 · Jul 1, 2009

GooseMainsDiddy said:
No I passed math.

Thanks DFEAR.

No you didn't because almost twice as much means that it has almost 34 frames of ending lag, and it has 31 frames of ending lag, IE, 3 more frames and it would have twice as much. You didn't correct anything, you just screwed up.

Anyway, SHFF Fairis pretty dangerous if you land during the ending lag, its a slight improvement but still dangerous if you land during the attack or right at the end.

Gnes · Jul 1, 2009

This topic is weird...i dont really understand whats being discussed >.>

Perfectly spaced fairs are pretty much generally safe.

Kaptain Kong · Jul 1, 2009

i think that this should have been discussed in the actual thread with the frame data, cuz that's basically what you're saying

ADHD · Jul 1, 2009

greatness_007 said:
Perfectly spaced fairs are pretty much generally safe.

No, they're never safe. SH can be dash grabbed out of shield all the time, and full hop can be uair'd from out of shield. Not to mention the other weird specific punishments other characters can do to it.

illinialex24 · Jul 1, 2009

This merited its own thread because this is pretty remarkable data, how unsafe it is. Sure I mean it isn't like some other moves but you better hit, or else.

This makes it more like Lucas's U-smash, a move you don't want to miss on because you can't DI very well the ending frames really, not well enough to avoid retribution, and are vulnerable for half a second. This means if you just miss, there are 31 frames to punish you.

This also means if it gets shielded, they have at least 27 frames to punish you. Seriously, thats a huge number. And generally above 27, because its very hard to land on the 17th frame exactly, generally you would land mid 30's or 20's, making you have almost 40 or so frames where they can punish you. Thats huge. Let me put that in comparison, fully charged rollout takes 59 frames with the first time it hits, IE, screw up badly on a fair and land near the end and I have freaking 60 frames to punish you with, IE, a perfect Jigglypuff could fully charge rollout and hit you with it in that time, just during the ending lag and landing lag. Her slow smashes come out as late as 16, meaning most characters could punish you with charged smashes.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jul 1, 2009

I don't think it should be compared to Lucas's U-Smash. It's just not the same thing. It is an abusable move that CAN be used badly but then again, the same could be said for DK and Wario's smashes. It just isn't that big of a deal because it is still such a good aerial compared to other character's aerials. If you miss then it's your fault and you have to deal with the consequences but it is still safe in the sense that benefits outweigh the faults. I'm sure ADHD knows more but this is what I have always thought.

EDIT:I realize you weren't directly comparing it to Lucas' U-Smash.

illinialex24 · Jul 1, 2009

GooseMainsDiddy said:
I don't think it should be compared to Lucas's U-Smash. It's just not the same thing. It is an abusable move that CAN be used badly but then again, the same could be said for DK and Wario's smashes. It just isn't that big of a deal because it is still such a good aerial compared to other character's aerials. If you miss then it's your fault and you have to deal with the consequences but it is still safe in the sense that benefits outweigh the faults. I'm sure ADHD knows more but this is what I have always thought.

EDIT:I realize you weren't directly comparing it to Lucas' U-Smash.

Yeah I know, I'm just saying in the worst possible scenario it is comparable to his U-smash, otherwise it isn't but its still bad. The benefits generally outweight the risks, but as Isai said, the key to winning smash is "Don't get hit", which involves not taking risky maneuvers too often, take a look at Mango with rest, he rests less but he is considered one of the best melee players now.

You need to make sure you have a very good chance of hitting or a low risk if you miss, so either make sure you can hit or use it in a low risk situation.

EDIT: I just did dair, you guys have bad luck lol. Max possible is 63 frames of ending lag, if you land on the the frame before it ends, or so, it has 34 ending lag and 30 landing lag. In short, be careful with it too.... Nevermind, it has some different stuff near the end where if you land near the end it doesn't get the high ending lag, max possible is in the 50's or so, but thats still high.

AlAxe · Jul 1, 2009

What is the point of this thread? Anybody who's ever played Diddy realized this in the first 30 seconds. Despite the lag though fair is still a godly move and difficult to punish.

illinialex24 · Jul 1, 2009

AlAxe said:
What is the point of this thread? Anybody who's ever played Diddy realized this in the first 30 seconds. Despite the lag though fair is still a godly move and difficult to punish.

Yeah, I really think everybody who's played Diddy knows that it has 31 frames of ending lag. Wow, I forgot, people can spot 1/60th of a second easily, sorry.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jul 1, 2009

That might have worked in Melee but it is different now. You have to be focused on every little detail in Brawl because they took out the hitstun. I could be wrong though.

illinialex24 · Jul 1, 2009

GooseMainsDiddy said:
That might have worked in Melee but it is different now. You have to be focused on every little detail in Brawl because they took out the hitstun. I could be wrong though.

He actually was talking about Smash64 most likely (why he's called the King of Smash, I don't think he's lost more than a game of Smash 64 like a month lol), but that still holds true for Brawl. Less tech skill, more about mindgames, and making sure you are smarter than your opponent.

ADHD · Jul 1, 2009

No offense alex but this thread is pretty useless. We already know fair and dair don't autocancel, and know that fair has mid-air lag if you use it in a short hop. The lag it has is irrelevant if you use it right.

Ingulit · Jul 1, 2009

illinialex24 said:
Yeah, I really think everybody who's played Diddy knows that it has 31 frames of ending lag. Wow, I forgot, people can spot 1/60th of a second easily, sorry.

If this was the only reason you posted this, then this should have gone in the Frame Data thread. Whoopde-freakin-do, it has x number of lag frames; we all know it's laggy and have a thread for this kind of frame math foolishness. This thread is pointless >>

EDIT: Since you made the Frame Data thread, wouldn't that make this duplicate thread spam? Both deal with the exact same topic, and were created by the same user in a short amount of time <<

AlAxe · Jul 1, 2009

^+1. In my opinion frame data is pretty useless. It really doesn't take much to figure out how much lag a move has, you just have to play the game. It's not like knowing frame data will actually help you win or learn how to use your moves.

Le_THieN · Jul 1, 2009

I think you guys are overreacting.

And uh, frame data is not useless, especially when you get down to calculating the nitty-gritty against certain characters.

illinialex24 · Jul 1, 2009

Ingulit said:
EDIT: Since you made the Frame Data thread, wouldn't that make this duplicate thread spam? Both deal with the exact same topic, and were created by the same user in a short amount of time <<

You obviously an idiot, because this deals with a specific instance. Now, let me give you examples of spam:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238857
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238974
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237567
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237562
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228467
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237585

Coyn3Masta · Jul 2, 2009

illinialex24 said:
You obviously an idiot, because this deals with a specific instance. Now, let me give you examples of spam:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238857
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238974
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237567
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237562
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228467
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237585

Alot of those made me lol XD

Ingulit · Jul 2, 2009

illinialex24 said:
You obviously an idiot, because this deals with a specific instance.

So, the steps to make multiple threads about the exact same thing are:

1. Do some (very helpful) research
2. Make a thread about it that gets stickied
3. Look at each individual move's laggyness
4. OMG this move has a lot of lag!!1one
5. Post ANOTHER thread about the laggy move (because just a sticky is never enough) and say it's a completely different "specific instance" that absolutely could not be discussed in the first thread; Hey guiez I did research here ill show u again lul
6. Personally attack those who think it is double posting
7. Continue and repeat with every other laggy move Diddy has
8. ???
9. Profit

am i rite? I wouldn't have pushed this again if it weren't for the personal attack. I am very thankful you did all the research, but the above is all I really see this thread being about.

Dark 3nergy · Jul 2, 2009

**** i can respect this kind of data. Having played other characters with bad landing lag from aerials i can really appreciate stuff like this.

illinialex24 · Jul 2, 2009

Ingulit, poking a troll in the eye isn't a very smart move.....

And thanks Coyn and D.E.

Dark 3nergy · Jul 2, 2009

As a dedede main i take my aerial spacing pretty seriously...one mis placed aerial thats fast falled and i can get into a pretty bad fix :\

i've seen Wolfs and Snake's Fair's..they've also got alot of ending lag as well

Dekar173 · Jul 2, 2009

The main instance of people using fair when they shouldn't is after a diddy hump. People will fair all day after that and get punished for it- don't!

Try it once per set, if it doesn't work, move on. If it does work, move on anyway. They'll remember you did this to them, and punish you accordingly (with a charged smash z0mg!!!)

shFFfair is seriously amazing. Illin, I think we need frame data on shFF (just the jump and FF, as in it's entire duration blahblahblah you know what you're doing so I'm sure you'd do it right =P) SH, and FH. That'd be extremely useful imo.

illinialex24 · Jul 2, 2009

Dekar173 said:
The main instance of people using fair when they shouldn't is after a diddy hump. People will fair all day after that and get punished for it- don't!

Try it once per set, if it doesn't work, move on. If it does work, move on anyway. They'll remember you did this to them, and punish you accordingly (with a charged smash z0mg!!!)

shFFfair is seriously amazing. Illin, I think we need frame data on shFF (just the jump and FF, as in it's entire duration blahblahblah you know what you're doing so I'm sure you'd do it right =P) SH, and FH. That'd be extremely useful imo.

It depends on when you start the fast fall, you spend around 42 frames (not sure his jump speed exactly, forgot it, but I know with frame 1 the frame you press X, without a fast fall he lands on frame 48) in the air or so.

Ingulit · Jul 2, 2009

illinialex24 said:
Ingulit, poking a troll in the eye isn't a very smart move.....

/grumble

If anyone else had made this thread, it would've been spam

I've got a question... You can use aerials while holding a Banana by Z-Dropping and using your aerial at the top of your jump, thereby catching it. Is it safe to start a F-Air at the apex of a Full Hop, or any hop at all? Can you use F-Air like this in a relatively safe manner?

illinialex24 · Jul 2, 2009

Ingulit said:
/grumble

If anyone else had made this thread, it would've been spam

I've got a question... You can use aerials while holding a Banana by Z-Dropping and using your aerial at the top of your jump, thereby catching it. Is it safe to start a F-Air at the apex of a Full Hop, or any hop at all? Can you use F-Air like this in a relatively safe manner?

Yeah, at the end of it the thing doesn't have the lag, so if you use it while going up or the apex, it should be safest. Just fast falling is the larger danger. I can find that out soon, I'm recording something atm, when I'm done I'll be working on this.

Skadorski · Jul 17, 2009

>.>
After I read this I only used Fair in like 3 matches out of 30.

I could never K.O. in the air.
But thanks for telling us/me, I don't want 30/31frames of "please hit me" time.

Sorry but this has to be said: Be More Careful Using Fair

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