• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Sorcerer's 11 Open

Raxxel

Hipster Heavyweight Champ
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
5,145
NNID
RaxxelAintHappy
3DS FC
2921-9637-8816
Man I wish Xivii wasn't lying when they said they checked Ran. I feel like I could have saved myself so much more time to read others, but I wanted to be thorough and not let Ran off the hook since he technically hadn't been cleared yet. I do at least feel 100% confident in him being town, but I feel like I could have just read a particular two of his posts for that.

We're gonna pretend I live in the pacific timezone.

Here are Ran notes, these were for me only since I imagine everyone else may have already decided Ran was town, but I want to at least show I'm not just making excuses for having less to show up with. I'm not done for tonight anyhow.

Ranmaru:
- Ranmaru divulging his own reads at #569. Reads feel consistent with what he's said about the players previously, and in turn the scale format he presents his overall reads in also mostly matches what he's saying. My obly gripe is that I feel he places Lore too far town after acknowledging that his play was anti-town. Null town vibes from this post.
- Ranmaru expresses an interesting philosophy at #572. He makes a point that town should help those they read as town, such as disbanding town v town fights and helping town reads be more efficient in their actions towards scum hunting. I won't give an impression on this, I want to note it however as it may very well become relevant in following notes.
- Ranmaru questions Ex at #599. The questions in regard to his response towards me feel somewhat unnecessary. While I can at least see him not wanting to assume intention in regard to pointing out the nulls and wanting clarification, asking why the analysis was cut is really irrelevant. In regards to the "why Pythag?" question, while I think Ex makes their case already on the post where the vote, I think wanting further elaboration makes sense and progresses analysis. Z quesiton also does this. Null.
- Ranmaru provides justification towards scumleaning Ex at #685. I agree with almost all of this, except the parts surrounding his response to my reads. Saying he snipped the analysis to make me look bad is a stretch. Ex isn't dumb, he knows anyone actually playing the game will redirect themselves to the message he quoted. The more obvious and likely reason behind the snip is to take up less space on the page. Saying he shaded me is also a stretch. I'm not exactly satisfied with his response to my read list, but calling it shade is an assumption, especially given the friendlier tone Ex takes, calling it humble. At worst, I think it's just a NAI acknowledgement of my post. Which could still be seen as scummy in its own right, but that isn't what Ran was going for. Overall this comes off as Ran attempting to profit off of Ex's plays to form a scum lean on him, and trying to add more reasoning to strengthen the case. Null scum.
- Ran unvotes Osie. #1558. This interaction always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but I never made a real note of it. Feels like Ranmaru was ridiculously easy to convince, like he had no actual confidence in voting Osie. Null scum.
- Ran answers Pythag regarding Wiisp. #1808. I don't like the lack of depth to these answers. Saying no with no explanation as to why is about as useful as saying nothing. Null.
- Ran scum leans Funnier at #1811. I agree with the reasoning here, Funnier's catch-ups did little for me, as no reads ultimately came of them. I did appreicate the questioning, but the questions themselves felt like they overall held little weight in the discussion. Town.
- Ranmaru's rereads at #1844. They make sense mostly, especially regarding Funnier once again. But judging by what he has to say around me and Ex, I would have honestly switched our places in the order he ultimately presents his reads in. Seeing these arguments, I would not have put myself above Ex. That said, I think it's just differing judgement. This post ultimately says enough to tell me Ran is town altogether. The amount of citation and detail Ran has to his scum reads alone, as well as the time he puts into presenting it nicely makes it impossible for me to believe he's scum despite previous grievances with his play I've had. I think in terms of actual analysis he can be weak at times, but this is covered in the following point. He is very clearly invested in both solving and helping others solve this game.
- Ranmaru makes a point about his town play at #2170. This explains a lot and makes my previous grievances with him more forgivable. Ran seems to be a player that will very actively throw around ideas to try and get some sort of trail towards the scum started. He isn't afraid to be flip on a dime as a result, as long as he feels confident in the direction he's switching to. Town.

I know he has more to post after this, but with how confident I am in his slot now I don't see a point in analyzing it when I could save myself time by looking into more likely suspects.
 

Raxxel

Hipster Heavyweight Champ
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
5,145
NNID
RaxxelAintHappy
3DS FC
2921-9637-8816
If y'all are curious about the order by the way, Wiisp is next. Once I put together a satisfying ISO on them, Ex is next, then Kary. This isn't ordered by how scummy anyone is. It's just the names I thought to put in the notes document I have open first.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
Raxxel it's much easier if you go to #2 and ignore everyone you aren't ISOing, that way you can simply just progress page by page. Then if you want to see context, you can click show ignored content. (Which is what I'm doing right now) Please don't forget to respond to my #2671.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
you could be helping me out here and giving me something to work from as I get caught up on this game.

you say that z25 isn't doing enough in just voting for Lore

I say you're not doing enough in just voting for z25

hit me up with some good reads brother
This is a defense of Z, and not a good one. I think it's important to look at this post, knowing that he never got town vibes from Z at the end of the day. (He arrived at him being null) So why state the red?

For the record, I think that the Lore / z25 / osie argument is a stupid thing to focus the Day phase around. Wouldn't be surprised if there's no scum there at all. Didn't see enough from Lore to actually get a read on them. That slot needs replacing ASAP.
z25 has been a complete non-factor today. Has been posting but doesn't seem to be really pursuing anything. I think xivii raises an interesting point about his early reads, and I thought it was weird when they chimed in about me earlier:

If you wanted to develop your read you could just call me out then and there. Take the initiative. Instead you bring it up but don't do anything with it.
However, re-reading most of z25's post's they don't give me scummy vibes, they're just null, and so I'm not very motivated to go in that direction. I think this is a slot that needs pressure but isn't worth rolling the dice on a lynch today. I think I would rather lynch Wisp than z25 but really I ought to re-read Wisp before that and frankly I don't have time right now. Content with voting Poyzin for today, awkward for me tomorrow if I'm wrong, but that's what you get for being #HBC I guess.

---


lmao what if I had it completely backwards and both Lore and z25 are scum
man I was really hoping that poyzin put both of his buddies in his fake check lol
what about Exlight?
Kary seems to have been too focused on him being wrong on Z all game (although he was null on Z at the end of Day 1) and he seemed a bit, obtuse on that page which annoyed me and pinged me. Just didn't seem like he cared to actually analyze what I was saying about Ex there. (Who he is now pushing)
---


Okay fair enough. If both Exlight and funnier flip town, who's the last mafia? Wiisp or Raxxel or?
He says fair enough to seem like he's understanding the point but I don't think he actually has it factor into his read on Ex.

So we're just lynching Exlight today eh?

Raxxel Raxxel be nice if you could contribute a bit more this Day phase.
No re-evaluation, simply going down the line without trying to really figure out who the last mafia is.

I do apologize about my absence by the way. I've been legitimately fatigued lately and it's made me less and less motivated to check in knowing the amount of stuff I'm gonna have to read through.

If y'all feel I don't post enough, I don't have qualms being voted out. I think you can solve this within 2 or so days.
The thread has grown quite long, and we post quite a bit. I know that this makes it harder for people to read through entirely, which is something we should focus on balancing as a town. I'm merely taking this as null, but I wouldn't think of this as a negative for Rax.

Well ****. I don't have the UP ISO due to college work yet, but I guess it doesn't matter today.

Vote: Z25

Guess I have TWO ISOs to do. If I can find a constant between them, as in a similar read, likely scum or null, then I think we basically have ourselves a perfect town win.
Initial reaction to Z ding.

Hm. Z's read on Kary #660 is interesting. Seems oddly defensive of the slot. Could just be fluff to make them seem more participant and not just leaving "null lol", but I sense a tinge of irritation towards Mamboo's behavior when they occupied the slot as well. I think if not Wiisp, Kary is very viable to look into as well.
This post seems genuine, and that of discovery.

I don't know if I agree with the move of putting off a Z lynch however. I don't see the benefit ultimately, he's good as dead anyway and I'd rather, when we hit the deadline for today, have a guaranteed scum lynch than take a needless risk and kill a still potential townie. I'm absolutely for getting more scum analysis done today, we can carry that over to tomorrow still to decide who we lynch then though.

Currently more comfortable with Ex's slot. I'm leaning more on Wiisp being the final scum now, but I definitely would not want to act on that until I analyze UP and Z's interactions with them.
This post lines up with their entrance, in that they don't agree with Z being put off.

ranmaru ranmaru I believe yesterday you asked who I would vote for between Kary and Wiisp.

Between the fact that I am equally as pissed as they are that you guys actually let Z25 go another day, and that this interaction and others between the two could have been behind a scum PM, my vote would be for Kary. We're killing Z today and that's final though. If nothing else they're still an active vote. We're much better off not giving scum free town kills.

Vote: Z25

One other thing to start off this phase though, in case Hunter might be thinking of claiming, don't.
I will say that I didn't see any emotion the day before, but at least they are consistent with the desire to vote Z off the island.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
Overall on Ex, I find him to be illogical. (At least, his stance on why he responded to Pythag but not Z). I find his engagement even when pressured to be genuine. Yet he isn't totally off the hook, due to lack of interaction with scum, and vice versa. I also agree with Zen that Z spewed Ex's alignment slightly:

The fact that Z is proposing an if Ex town, then pythag scum scenario indicates that Z was aware that Ex would flip town, as he's setting up a potential route to scumread pythag in the future.
On Wisp, I find his early play lacking. Yet, I have to consider that Z spewed his slot town. I am also trusting Xiivi's judgement in his #2489. I also find his appeal to me in his #2648 genuine. He seems lost right now, and needs a board to spring off of, which is me right now.

Rax, I have had concerns with lack of posting, and less proactive use of his vote. Yet, as you can see, in his #2681, he has quite some depth that I don't expect scum to actually have. From his explanations as to why he hasn't posted as much, I can understand why his motivation may have been lacking, but when he puts his mind to it, his posting seems townie. This reminds me of a game I lost because I was top poster, and everyone else that was keeping up with me, was scum. This isn't always the case, but I can see this as a possible reason as to why Rax couldn't keep up, and it seems they heavily like to focus on analysis. Now I mention that I didn't like his entrance to this day, but it does match up with what his initial response was when he voted Z. He mentioned he preffered to kill off Z instead.

Kary, isn't a player to be overly scummy. They are on my list primarily due to poe, and defending scum. They interact with Zen about Ex but seem to understand why Zen finds them town, but still pushes for Ex today. He just seems to be tunneling without trying to decipher who the final scum actually is at this point, which is really all scum can do at this point in the game. It's very apparent that scum have little options right now. Right now, Kary just seems to be going down the list without considering what others are saying. Their reaction to Z being dinged as scum also pings me. It seemed like he cared more to post about how wrong he was about Lore and Z rather than look into what I was saying about Ex. Upon Replacing in, Kary never had a good entrance either, and instead they were undermining my push on Z. His defense doesn't really make much sense since in the end, he ends up with a null read on ZZ5. He never had a good reason to ask me for reads when I was already pushing Z. What reason then would he state I'm not doing enough in pushing him? I'll let you put 2 and 2 together for that.
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
Location
Flux
in the comparison I've made, Scum!Rax is way more defensive than Town!Rax.

Unless his meta has evolved ridiculously in 3 games, I'm having a harder time seeing him as scum right now.

Traits of scum!Rax

Defensive
colder, more calculating
Quite Active
"Proactive"

I don't see a world where scum!Rax posts this :

I do apologize about my absence by the way. I've been legitimately fatigued lately and it's made me less and less motivated to check in knowing the amount of stuff I'm gonna have to read through.

If y'all feel I don't post enough, I don't have qualms being voted out. I think you can solve this within 2 or so days.
It's not much but that's all I have to go with, currently.
 

Raxxel

Hipster Heavyweight Champ
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
5,145
NNID
RaxxelAintHappy
3DS FC
2921-9637-8816
Raxxel Raxxel Can you explain why you haven't voted proactively this game? How does this game compare to any other game?
Lemme respond to this before doing anything else:
Honestly, town or scum I don't like to lay a vote down unless I believe in it. The reason why that is, is because if I'm too willing to shift and throw around my vote, it means less and less. I want my vote to actually mean something so it can actually pressure people. If a scum player sees my vote for them but knows that it will very well disappear in the next instant, they don't feel nearly as pressured to defend themselves. So, the best way to make sure that I can properly intimidate with my vote is to have some foundation for it. That way, a player knows that if they want to be ridden of it, they have to give me a reason to do so.

It's hard to compare this game to others. While I have mafia experience prior to forum mafia, it was in a much more casual, friendly environment where the analysis isn't that deep, and votes only happen at the end of a phase so it's really a different game altogether. Right now, not including this one, I have two forum mafia games under my belt. In Jungle Mafia, I was completely new and really had no idea what to expect, and it was clear in my play. I had no idea how to understand a scum mindset, and it didn't help that it was multi-ball, so studying interactions to understand who was and wasn't scum was harder. If I were to try and compare, for one, I'm going into this much more experienced. I understand the dedication it takes now, I understand terminology and the meta better. It's definitely also a higher level game, and it's definitely been more difficult to keep up with than Jungle Mafia was. I think if Jungle Mafia me was playing this right now he would have already gotten his ass lynched from how many newbie town mistakes he would have made. I also do a lot better seeing through pressure and apparent authority now, if that makes sense. Experienced players feel less intimidating to work with. My mindset also changed a lot, it was focused more on self preservation before. Anyway, that's Jungle Mafia. I can't say much about VGM honestly, Xivii and UP carried me that game, I dunno how I won that in hindsight. The luck of a ******* game sided with me there. It's even less comparable to this game honestly, so much **** that went outside the rules of regular mafia happened that allowed me to get as far as I did.
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
Location
Flux
@Ran,
Kary, isn't a player to be overly scummy. They are on my list primarily due to poe, and defending scum. They interact with Zen about Ex but seem to understand why Zen finds them town, but still pushes for Ex today. He just seems to be tunneling without trying to decipher who the final scum actually is at this point, which is really all scum can do at this point in the game. It's very apparent that scum have little options right now. Right now, Kary just seems to be going down the list without considering what others are saying. Their reaction to Z being dinged as scum also pings me. It seemed like he cared more to post about how wrong he was about Lore and Z rather than look into what I was saying about Ex. Upon Replacing in, Kary never had a good entrance either, and instead they were undermining my push on Z. His defense doesn't really make much sense since in the end, he ends up with a null read on ZZ5. He never had a good reason to ask me for reads when I was already pushing Z. What reason then would he state I'm not doing enough in pushing him? I'll let you put 2 and 2 together for that.
This is a good breakdown.

How do you feel about his position on Ex?
you said Kary didn't interact with your position on Ex, yet he immediately voted Ex after I posted my wall?
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
Location
Flux
Wow, I clearly didn't read well. You outline it as 'he's tunnelling without trying to decipher who the final scum actually is"

Yeah, he's kinda just decided. He was all about Funnier and Ex, I think he came out swinging at Funnier at the start of yesterDay and then switched to Ex, but then was on the vote for Funnier? He couldn't have thought both of them were scum, right?
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I feel like since there was more ammo for Ex, that it would be a good target for him, rather then actually thinking about why Ex may or may not be connected to Z as scum.
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
Location
Flux
I feel like since there was more ammo for Ex, that it would be a good target for him, rather then actually thinking about why Ex may or may not be connected to Z as scum.
I think I might be getting in my head too much, you're helping me.

If you're null on me, why did you say you would be relying on me to help you ?
Sounds a lot like you already know I'm town and are trying to get on my good side.
This is legit scumhunting from Kary. Scum!Kary knows that there's a sorcerer, and I don't think would particularly call them out for being scummy, but note them and try to buddy, or pocket them. We see the exact opposite.

For the record, I think that the Lore / z25 / osie argument is a stupid thing to focus the Day phase around. Wouldn't be surprised if there's no scum there at all. Didn't see enough from Lore to actually get a read on them. That slot needs replacing ASAP.
This could be scum trying to hide, but don't forget, I literally made almost a similar argument. I wasn't totally convinced anyone there was scummy.


I guess the important things are the following:

I would sooner vote one of Wiisp/Z25 than vote Pythag. I usually give Pythag a town read for sounding sincere (tone of his posts) and working on his own initiative, no feeling of a mafia agenda, and I'm happy to do that again here. Maybe this is finally the game I get fooled by scum Pythag but his is not a slot I'm very afraid of.
So I don't like the waggon on Pythag but I am at least glad to see a waggon instead of this back and forth that goes nowhere.

For anyone who thinks UtopianPoyzin is trying to "solve the game" I would like to see which posts you would consider evidence for that. Simply posting a lot is not a town tell, particularly from his slot. Raxxel Raxxel tagging you since you seemed to have an opinion on this earlier.
If town was having an easy enough time to find me scummy, I think Kary could've easily put his vote on me. Instead, he actually double backs, says he doesn't like the wagon, and would sooner vote for those he said he wouldn't be surprised if there were no scum, because he has that much of a town read on me. This is either a really great bus, or he's actually working through things.

you looked at your check results, looked at Pythag's play, and decided the best course of action was to openly call him the sorcerer in the game thread?
If you think I'm mafia with Poyzin considering how defensive he was towards me and his final post saying 'fine with lynching Kary' then I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
Here, he doesn't defend his own actions, but rather actually appeals to UP. UP was defensive towards Kary.
The only arguement here


Either Kary is playing a world class scum game, or he's town. I've never played with scum!Kary, but I've also never played with a lot of people in this game.

I started the day thinking it was Rax-Kary, now I'm more thinking it's Ex-Wiisp, with an emphasis on Ex.

Thoughts Ran?
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I think we have to consider the possibility that scum didn't have an idea as to who the sorcerer was. Especially since, UP was voting Z, so scum may think that's not the sorcerer. On the argument, Kary was stating I was doing just as much as Z at that point. Which seemed a bit disingenuous. (I was doing much more) What I always go back to is, if Kary were town, he'd be trying to sort alignment, and not simply lynch.

What I am also trying to do is look at the other three, and see what posts and arguments point to them being more likely town than scum. Such as Xiivi's point on Ex, which I do think is important to consider. I am curious what you think of that. (Quote below)

The fact that Z is proposing an if Ex town, then pythag scum scenario indicates that Z was aware that Ex would flip town, as he's setting up a potential route to scumread pythag in the future.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
Wiisp Wiisp Now that I have posted my direction, and we have more posts from Rax, I'm curious what your thoughts are now.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
They mentioned only having a few games under their belt. It seems this is their third, here. Read #2688.
 

ExLight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
1,305
They mentioned only having a few games under their belt. It seems this is their third, here. Read #2688.
Ah, I missed the part where they say they only had two scum games under their belt. Hmm.
To be fair, I've met players that had irl mafia as background that were naturally super good in forum mafia because of that previous experience, and Raxx seems to be the case because no matter their alignment this game they're playing it really well for a 3rd game.

Saying that doesn't help you or town though.
I'm just venting a bit
what time is it for you, why are you awake
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I'm EST. I'm awake because I'm addicted to PSO2 and unemployed.
 

ExLight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
1,305
I also don't like her vote trying to kill Z25 despite apparently keeping up with the thread and understanding we kept him alive in case the bomb dies before D4
 

ExLight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
1,305
and I specially hate how we talking about meta only on D3 despite me asking for meta D1 constantly

anyway
now I gotta focus on class, bbl
 

#HBC | Kary

Fiend of Fire
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
4,965
Location
그루그 화산
ranmaru ranmaru if I was scum with z25 I would make more effort to avoid bad connections with his slot. Instead I don't care, I just share my thoughts with the thread. I'm not scum this game I'm just not trying to be top town.

Yeah, he's kinda just decided. He was all about Funnier and Ex, I think he came out swinging at Funnier at the start of yesterDay and then switched to Ex, but then was on the vote for Funnier? He couldn't have thought both of them were scum, right?
I didn't vote for funnier. I was tunneled on him for a bit Day 2 but so much of the stuff he was doing just didn't fit with a scum mindset. And there was some good waggon evidence for example he wasn't on the Pythag or Poyzin waggons Day 1. But I didn't think it was conclusive enough to try and defend him.
 

#HBC | Kary

Fiend of Fire
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
4,965
Location
그루그 화산
Wiisp Wiisp I would love to know why someone saying they're fine with dying is NAI.
I can't help but notice you have said no such thing this game. Is it going to be awkward for you if I clear everyone who's said they're okay to die?
 

ExLight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
1,305
ExLight ExLight I want to see you solve the game. Let's say you have two shots to find the one hidden scum. Who are you shooting?
I just can't see Wiisp/Lore as scum, the interactions just wouldn't make sense to me (the double leading wagon, Z25 pushing it as hard as possible D1, the lack of eyecatching interactions with Poy, Lore trying to scumhunt, etc.). So it would leave Raxx, Ran, and you


as it is right now I'd do Raxx>You>=Ran

but I need to reread the thread to recheck Ranmaru because finding out Xivii didn't actually clear him is a ****ing pain

Raxx is due to many small bits like oportunistic votes and the fact Poy kept insisting on asking their opinion on each other (Raxx and Z25) during D1 mainly

You is because I feel like you're been taking a somewhat passive aggressive posture, but it seems you're more interested in actively scumhunting thi phase which is nice
I can also kinda see UP panicking and wanting mambo replaced asap due to him possibly being able to implode the scum team with the noobish trolling, but idk if he just considers mafia sportsmanship important overall or just when his ass is on the line (meta about it would help k pls)

Ran I gotta rethink some stuff
I feel like I need to see how Z25 and Ranmaru reacted to the fake green check to see if I can interpret some of his most recent stuff, but I had a small case on him during early D2 that I might revisit later on today
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I also want to mention that, the longer we do keep Z alive, the more he is able to discuss strategy with his team mate. I want y'all to remember that.
 

Wiisp

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,783
ranmaru ranmaru
hopefully tonight

#HBC | Kary #HBC | Kary
when I say NAI, I mean there are better things to evaluate people off of
I don't believe that anyone alignment will use that kind of AtE
like I said it probably pushes more towards wolfy in lylo?
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I'm not sure, but he was doing well enough to improve his play and fool myself and others for the latter half of Day 1.
 
Top Bottom