Sorcerer's 11 Open

[Pythag]

yea Raxx popping in right after the cop result to throw an early vote makes me wonder if they were lurking

From what I recall he was always slightly behind everyone. He hopped on my wagon at a nice time, and I think the UP one too? I don’t think he led the charge on anyone, but rather agreed with what others found scummy. Could be a still newer player thing. Idk

He seemed the least responsive to xivii’s claim but I STILL need to reread. I’ve had a lot of homework / work this week.


Ran how do you enjoy phone posting??

 

[Raxxel]

Huh. Guess I checked in at a good time.

I haven't read through yet, but I will answer questions if y'all have any while I do so.

Raxxel did you roll scum again? Are you and UP cursed?

I would be so pissed lmao, I dunno how UP went right into this game with a straight face after getting done like that.

 

[Raxxel]

So, did a quick read through from my last post to now.

Unvote

I'm not feeling Wiisp's vote on Z after the specific request that we back away from lynching him. This is especially not a very town move after Z just voted himself with the likely intention of getting this day to end already.

Ex surprised me with some stream of conscience math as to how we get the most guaranteed win.

I don't know if I agree with the move of putting off a Z lynch however. I don't see the benefit ultimately, he's good as dead anyway and I'd rather, when we hit the deadline for today, have a guaranteed scum lynch than take a needless risk and kill a still potential townie. I'm absolutely for getting more scum analysis done today, we can carry that over to tomorrow still to decide who we lynch then though.

Currently more comfortable with Ex's slot. I'm leaning more on Wiisp being the final scum now, but I definitely would not want to act on that until I analyze UP and Z's interactions with them.

 

[Raxxel]

To clarify, by "carry over", I mean that we get a full day's worth of scum talk and analysis done, then use that for tomorrow's lynch. Not to put it on hold.

 

[Raxxel]

A little note.

#1533 makes me definitely think Funnier is in fact town. I've played scum team with UP before. He isn't able to convey this kind of frustration or aggression by force, so unless he really got pissed off by his teammate that he can't communicate with, I think I'm okay with this slot.

Also, funnier6 , message Thirdkoopa for the video game mafia game I was in. He should probably be able to link the thread to you. That was a scum game for me. For a town game (though I dunno how much good this will do, I was insanely new to forum mafia and god it showed), message UtopianPoyzin for Jungle Mafia.

 

[Wiisp]

I'm not feeling Wiisp's vote on Z after the specific request that we back away from lynching him. This is especially not a very town move after Z just voted himself with the likely intention of getting this day to end already.

again how does my vote on Z end the day phase any earlier

 

[Raxxel]

again how does my vote on Z end the day phase any earlier

Unless you're town, it doesn't. If you were town however, you would be experienced enough to know that moving him closer to the lynch requirement unnecessarily would be enabling the other scum player to get closer to getting Z killed and ending the day early. You simply wouldn't do it, period.

On a similar note, your vote was also close to Z's in terms of timing which isn't a good sign either.

 

[Wiisp]

"you would be experienced enough to know"
do not bring my experience level into this game as an attack against me
on another note, you are very reactive rather than proactive

in what wolf world, do I actively try to hammer early to inhibit our info gain
that looks wolfy as hell, and no wordplay outside, "oops", gets me out of looking bad
and if I am a wolf here, I want as little reason to look worse as possible given the situation wolves are in right now
and there we already unvotes at the time

try again, also you need more than my lynch to secure a win at this point, so put a little more effort in, k thanks

 

[Raxxel]

Hm. Z's read on Kary #660 is interesting. Seems oddly defensive of the slot. Could just be fluff to make them seem more participant and not just leaving "null lol", but I sense a tinge of irritation towards Mamboo's behavior when they occupied the slot as well. I think if not Wiisp, Kary is very viable to look into as well.

 

[Wiisp]

I would also never allow Z to give up here first of all
and I would never allow him to continue talking, if he did give up here
Town will look into every word he says, and the amount of mental gymnastics you need to take, to put it in your favor, isnt worth it

 

[Raxxel]

I would also never allow Z to give up here first of all
and I would never allow him to continue talking, if he did give up here
Town will look into every word he says, and the amount of mental gymnastics you need to take, to put it in your favor, isnt worth it

Why would town care what he has to say at this point? His word is worth literally nothing now because he can say whatever he wants with nothing to lose. You don't derive meaning from the actual words of potential scum, you derive the meaning from the intentions of saying those words. As in, you consider what a user is trying to accomplish saying what they said. We now know any of what Z has to say comes with the intention of setting us off track. There is no reason to listen to him.

I do wish Osie was here though. I do think your point of not letting him speak could be verified, but they're the only ones who could do that.

 

[Wiisp]

Kary: Not much to say here, I want to see their thoughts when caught up and go from there. As for who they replaced. I didn't like mambo but thats not a hot take. He was was just trolling and being annoying in this game and I genuinely don't even account that to being new, he just didn't care. While that is scummy behavior, its scummy out of a game's context, but in game it probably didn't mean anything when mambo was just trolling to troll. I doubt their alignment would have changed that.

How is this defensive? this is exactly where his thoughts should on someone who lolcat'd since Mambo's posts shouldnt push anyone either way, and Kary hadnt posted at all

if anything hes latching onto a LHF scum read here
no caring isnt scum behavior, both town and wolves can play like this, and Mambo clearly has no idea how to play as either alignment, so why off so little posts is he trying to intepret such behavior

his conclusion is correct here
and whether this is his partner or not, probably isnt something easily black or white

if Kary is a wolf, we can surely find it by looking at their posts rather than associations that scum easily control

 

[Wiisp]

you shouldnt care what he says, that is the correct play, but will villagers always abide by that rule? no
so its dangerous to continue speaking

 

[Raxxel]

How is this defensive? this is exactly where his thoughts should on someone who lolcat'd since Mambo's posts shouldnt push anyone either way, and Kary hadnt posted at all

if anything hes latching onto a LHF scum read here
no caring isnt scum behavior, both town and wolves can play like this, and Mambo clearly has no idea how to play as either alignment, so why off so little posts is he trying to intepret such behavior

his conclusion is correct here
and whether this is his partner or not, probably isnt something easily black or white

if Kary is a wolf, we can surely find it by looking at their posts rather than associations that scum easily control

I've made a point several times already that I'm looking at both UP and Z's previous posts since they have new context. Yes, while Kary could be found out through their own content, why not ALSO factor in how two scum players have interacted with them? They can control their relations, sure, but as I've mentioned, you can still find intention in how they interact with them in public compared to everyone else.

It is however a two way street though. Once I'm comfortable with having looked through Z and UP's stuff and posting all my thoughts, anybody that I think is worth looking into is next. I would absolutely want to look through Kary's content to see how they in turn respond to Z and UP.

 

[Wiisp]

that's fine, give me something stronger, cause that post means absolutely nothing
I am not saying that its impossible to determine alignments through interactions

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Did funnier post any content yet?

 

[Wiisp]

Yeah I've seen that post funnier6 and I don't see where it says you're not allowed to have a scumread on Ran.
Are you really going to give up because a single person has a different opinion to you?
You say you're being "dismissed out of hand" but you have both myself and Ranmaru asking for reads from you. We WANT you to contribute.
So I find it a little weird that you're throwing this pity party and are most concerned with pestering Exlight.

This post is pretty manipulative
Kary has been quite ad hominem this game as well
idk if that makes him a wolf though, given not many wolves play like this, and it yields more eyes on you than not unless you have a general direction

If you're the hunter, just claim it tomorrow. If you're not, shut the **** up lmao

Kary is probably just the hunter after this post

 

[ranmaru]

I'm going to sleep, later.

@Ran pretend all the actives right now are town. I wanna ask your opinion.

Kary and rax. Between these two who is more likely to be scum?

If I had to choose between the two, I'd lean towards Kary.

 

[Raxxel]

that's fine, give me something stronger, cause that post means absolutely nothing
I am not saying that its impossible to determine alignments through interactions

#1309 is an interesting one for sure. They seem to acknowledge Kary's scummy behavior after it's called out, but not really follow up with any sort of lean or read on them. You think this could be Z responding to a read on their teammate to both distance and also just further acknowledge their presence in a public space?

This post is pretty manipulative
Kary has been quite ad hominem this game as well
idk if that makes him a wolf though, given not many wolves play like this, and it yields more eyes on you than not unless you have a general direction


Kary is probably just the hunter after this post

Ad hominem is rampant this game. Especially among the people I don't know too well. I wouldn't look into that.

Why do you think them demanding a Hunter claim makes them hunter? I think the parameter to claim it tomorrow seems to also suggest otherwise. Not that I disagree with positivity altogether but I'm definitely curious as to where your mind is going with this.

 

[Raxxel]

With the possibility* ****ing auto-correct lmao.

 

[ranmaru]

Ran how do you enjoy phone posting??

I haven't phone posted that much today, been playing PSO2 mostly.

 

[Wiisp]

Raxxel

Yeah that isn’t great behavior. Seems like they want to seem on the townie wagon but not switching after that to much more likely targets makes no sense at all. Not a good look for their slot currently. I’m definitely going to read what we have from them again and see how I feel there.
That and Xi’s last few posts are very strange compared to their other content. Xi has been a scum lean for me though and that hasn’t changed.

maybe, I don't think not voting there makes it anymore possible

 

[Wiisp]

Im going to sleep
gute nacht

 

[ranmaru]

its not hype, because we caught him because of a cop check
maybe ill get more wim if we end up in a f3 situation, that would be fun

That's only on top of UP flipping sorcerer day 1, which wasn't due to any mechanical aspects. That was day play.

 

[ranmaru]

I just think it's wisp here, and think we are now over thinking it. Pythag, when you re-read, I want you to tell me what you think of Wisp's overall play, and not just the part where he was just as confused as you. Remember that, UP was sorcerer and it's possible wisp (as scum) wasn't aware of it. Have you considered that?

 

[ranmaru]

I also want to mention that Wisp was stating Funny and I were buddies without any substantiation, and he felt no need to ISO me at all after the fact.

 

[Wiisp]

ya and he also self voted
*Cringe*
I'm not really arguing that that wasn't hype
but him being the lost wolf meant we got less wagonomics
and the wolves didnt really notice he was a wolf probably, but he did look quite townie to some of us
this whole game is so town sided, but also so wolf sided, if specific events happen

 

[ranmaru]

I just don't get why you're complaining as if what happened is bad though.

 

[Wiisp]

I just don't get why you're complaining as if what happened is bad though.

because this game-state we are in is boring
I wish this game swung in a way that required me to care

 

[#HBC | Kary]

This post is pretty manipulative
Kary has been quite ad hominem this game as well
idk if that makes him a wolf though, given not many wolves play like this, and it yields more eyes on you than not unless you have a general direction


Kary is probably just the hunter after this post

Rolefishing sure is one way of getting a better read on me.

Glad we agree my play doesn't make me a wolf though.

 

[Pythag]

Alright, giving you all fair warning, I got a freaking huge post in the chamber right now.

I wanted to reread and iso Rax, but he seemed so town, and I kept noticing how some people interacted, so I've got a chronological reread.

TL;DR is that I think the scum team is Ex, Z25 and UP.

 

[Pythag]

Ooof, Ex is not benefitting well from a reread.



Went rereading the thread looking at Rax, to being much more interested in Ex's / z25. These are in chronlogical order.

other scum I would put as either kary, pythag then maybe ex.

What was that rule of three that was talked about earlier? Sure it's not everything, but interesting to note. Also Kary is present.

Ex casts shade on z25 :

Sakurai guy is voting lore just to save his ass

but then later flips his position when Ran says this :

ZZ5 is a better candidate than Lore because he's voting with interest in saving his own tail rather than progress the game for town. Lore, voted in a manner which is anti-town, but also against the interests of scum, and he stuck to his direction after you posted the long haiku.

If it's a mislynch they'd prolly also try to save themselves. That's perfectly NAI.

Then all the Pythag - Ex fight-splosion. Ex was mad that I said he was sheeping z25, when now he's arguing that z25 is sheeping him.

CWAC, sheeping Z25, and using a meta introduction to justify any possible scummy actions

Z's tretise on ex, looks really mealy mouthed. I know that Z's scum, but is he just setting up the opportunity for a ML here, or does he know that Ex is scum, and wants to be able to bus him.

Spoiler: long

Sure,

478 and 479

are posts that I feel tryS to hard to try and sell the slot as a townie or a player with bad luck. Yes Ex is new but both these posts seem out of place and trying to set up a narrative and picture of them that we should trust. Which while past games can work as good indicators of a slots behavior should be used as true evidence. Anyone can switch up play styles between games if they want too, and at the end of the day not every person will act differently regardless of alignment.

481

The use of all caps and again trying to use past games as hard evidence of their statements being true sounds like WIFOM. Minus the fact that there isn’t a wagon forming on them which is when you would normally see a townie act defensive like this to protect themselves and occasionally scum. Although personally I’ve seen it as a bad townie play more then a scum play in games. That doesn’t matter when it could go either way here.

526

They talk about to Pythag how they had the idea of d1 voting being essentially a Guess first and how that I was parroting this.

Except I’m pretty sure I’m not the only other person in this thread with that idea( but I’d have to re read). It’s not like it’s a big revelation either. If you’ve played mafia this is common knowledge, so using it to take a bit of a jab at me comes off as a weaker point imo.

As for the second part of that. I really don’t see how Pythag was making them look bad there. I had no change in option over either of them based on that interaction and it seems the thread thought similarity. This again gives off a sort of victim act from them which I don’t like. If your town it only makes you look bad and isn’t a strong play imo.

Granted I can definitely see them being upset by pythag’s post which comes off a little harsh. Ex’s reaction to it still isn’t too great though, but I could see it as frustrated town. I don’t agree with them going to vote afterwards for pythag.

Pythag was applying a lot of pressure on them so I get where ex could be coming from, but it seems to be a strong and bad reaction to pressure.

I wouldn’t say they are one hundred percent scum, but this interaction has me leaning them more as scum, but it could be a very upset townie and then I would look at pythag more based on the flip. I’ve seen this go both ways and been in similar situations myself when I got really heated, but I’m leaning towards potential scum reacting poorly to a little pressure.

I’ve gotta head out for a bit but if I can tonight I’ll post more details on other reads later tonight

Ex puts his vote on me, and Ran comes in with the questions :

Ex, what is your point in reference to Rax's nulls? Why did you cut out the analysis? Why are you voting Pythag? You like my #516, so how does that affect your read on ZZ5?

Not sure if I understood the first two questions. beep boop does not compute

I'm voting Pythag because he's my scummiest read and I want people to discuss him more.

I kinda see where he's coming from with the whole "oh I'm town and I'm just trying to avoid a mislynch" and agree that this is no excuse to not try to help town discuss more info.
But your post doesn't affect my read much, especially because he posted some thoughts after that. So he's still mostly a null for me, maybe a just an itsy bitsy scummier due to not having the initiative.

Now Z25 is a null?

Spoiler: kary sidebar

SIDEBAR : Kary's post in this, remembering the rule of three, if we want to put emphasis on that is interesting

For the record, I think that the Lore / z25 / osie argument is a stupid thing to focus the Day phase around. Wouldn't be surprised if there's no scum there at all. Didn't see enough from Lore to actually get a read on them. That slot needs replacing ASAP.

Ran presses Ex on this, and Ex responds to Z's post.

Ex's response to z25

Like, nothing is said between Ex and Z's interaction.
and furthermore, Z had actually leaned scum on Ex when I was just answering a question, yet here he's responding quite level-headed

****NOTE AT THIS POINT I ACCIDENTALLY CLOSED MY BROWSER AND LOST SOME OF MY POST, SO ORDER MAY BE MESSED UP****

Z25's big list o' reads

The reads I think are relevant :

Xi
Ex
Pythag

More then likely Scum:
Lore
Funnier

Spoiler: this makes me not want to vote kary

Two is an interesting point. I did sort of touch in that in my reads. Looking for approval is odd but I could also see it being Utopian trying to encourage more participation in the game/gather various opinions on the current game state. It’s something I could see town or scum do.

Kary is giving a strong statement about why he wants UP gone. Ex and Z25's interaction was much less decisive. Kary looks better from this IMO, while z25 of course is null on the whole interaction.

Ran then holds Ex accountable - why are you mad at pythag but not at z25 who is scum leaning you. Ex's response :

Is he
in his readpost he seemed to be reading more like null than scumlean

Ran votes Ex, while he also finds Z25 scummy.

Ex's responses :

why you're not voting for Sakurai if you think me and him are buddies then? He already has a wagon on him lol
I feel like you're taking something to the personal side of things and I have no idea why

He's not making it personal.

hmm, mkay then
I don't see how reducing your main scumread's wagon is productive but whatever

Weren't you the one trying to convince us today to vote AROUND the confirmed scum?
---------------
Nothing of note for awhile..

Z25 posts @ Ran

O Also you don’t need to directly interact with someone to get a good read for them. Their posts speak for themselves and quite frankly I don’t think any of Ex’s are really great which I’ve explained plenty at this point.

---------------
z25 posts his top town reads as Osie, Raxxel, and UP, but this isn't exactly helpful info.
---------------

honestly D1 is pretty much a shot in the dark and if it would save the host some headaches from the whole finding subs stuff I'm fine with lynching whoever is subbing out

This is a weird thing to say.
---------------

I'm actually fine with moving my vote to Xivii since he started pocketing Py as soon as he suggesting putting Xivii in the chopping block if he flipped town

^^THIS is the post that xivii actually viewed as a scumslip.^^
as well as Wiisp

---------------
z25 talks to kary and Ex after during xivii's defense of me.

Casts shade on kary, who he had as null

Talks to Ex pretty normally, even though he's scum leaning him
----------------
Ran responds to this quote, but it still catches my eye :

I completely disagree. Ex saying that Pythag’s intent was to make him super scummy may be incorrect, at least it is to me. But, that’s ExLight’s interpretation of the events, and doesn’t make him more or less town or scum. I also wouldn’t call it an attack. What it does tell is that Pythag and ExLight are probably not aligned, but that information can’t do many favors on D1 without any flips.

ExLight wanting time “shut down any scum speculation” is your interpretation and you’re free to believe that.

Sorcerer defending wolf? Could be.
--------------------------
UP finally shows up in the thread, and starts trying to draw a line to Ran being scum. Guess who jumps right on? : (Reminds me of him going on Rax just a few posts ago, when Wiisp brought up something)

Yea, Ran seem to be flipflopping quite a bit
I found even stranger when he jumped in the Xivii wagon right after I moved there to tie them after saying that I wanted the votes to be split

When UP is asked about reads :

ExLight is my top townread surprisingly. I feel like they are being far more open with their thoughts and don't have anything to hide, whereas any other player could reasonably be a really good WW in my book.

and here's a post that gets really interesting :

either you're like my soulmate or you're scum pocketing me
what's WW tho

I think that's exactly what's going on here.
I think this is Ex trying to find the sorcerer. No one else commented on it, but man, this doesn't look that great.


So Ex has been all over the place, defensive, he's interacted really softly with Z, who's confirmed scum, was caught scumslipping by Wiisp and Xivii, and I believe was trying to breadcrumb sorcerer. That's more than enough for me to want to vote him tomorrow.

I'll take any comments about why I'm a potato below.

 

[Pythag]

unvote

 

[ranmaru]

That's a good point with the sorcerer bit. That reminded me of UP's post in the beginning:

@ExLight , my brother from a brother’s brother, do you have anything to add?

 

[ranmaru]

I'm thinking that the final scum is between Wisp and Ex. I will re-read Z's interactions with Lore later.

 

[ranmaru]

That's a good point with Ex flipping his position on Z when I was saying the same thing.

 

[Pythag]

I'm thinking that the final scum is between Wisp and Ex. I will re-read Z's interactions with Lore later.

Wiisp reads so much better than Ex though.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Unvote

I can get behind lynching Exlight. Frankly that slot is weird, seeing Pythag's case reminded me of a couple things I didn't like from them on Day 1. Even if they do flip town they seem like a liability in Lylo. Plus if you say you're okay with dying, well... you shouldn't lie in a mafia game y'know?

I was definitely tunneling on funnier for a bit there, started writing up a big wall of a post to bury him about all the contradictions and how he doesn't take hard stances and what not but the whole thing kinda fails the 'but scum could just lurk instead' test.

If Raxxel is the last mafia seems like it's gonna be a pain in the backside trying to pin them down because they don't post enough to be honest.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Raxxel post your notes again bruh

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah I am thinking Ex is more likely here again.