Sonic vs Olimar help

[SamusTheHedgehog]

Aside from the 3 people i know have a advantage vs Sonic (Pikachu, Falco, and Luigi), I also have problems when i fight Olimar. any tips in this matchup

 

[Tenki]

If they grab alot, jump alot.

Jump at him, and when it looks like you're gonna land, double jump, fastfall a B-air or N-air behind him.

Try to keep Olimar in the air, and preferrably off-stage.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Space with tilts, yo.
Approaching him can prove to be pretty difficult. Run at him, you're going to get grabbed, spinshot, and you're going to get picked out the air because Olimar has a good anti air game in utilt, nair, usmash and others.
Once you're inside his defences so to speak you need to take advantage and get him offstage, he sucks there.

 

[da K.I.D.]

full charge SC can usually get inside i do that alot in this match

 

[Chis]

Gimp when ever possible and don't spot dodge his grabs.

All right ROOOOY! When edge hogging be ready to roll or jump off before they could throw a purple pikmin at you.

Don't let pikmins latch onto and be weary when Olimar tries to bait you. I think you can spot dodge or up smash the pikmin off you.

More later

 

[SonicX580]

use grabs to counter olimar or get rid all of his pikmin.

 

[Fino]

You counterpick. Sonic is by far the most boringly easy matchup olimar has.
*puts up flame shield*


~Fino

 

[ROOOOY!]

Just...WHY make comments like that? They're not constuctive, not helpful, just really scrubby.
It's not our fault you find Sonic boringly easy because level 3 Sonic's keep spindashing from half way across the stage at you expecting not to be grabbed.
If you've got nothing to contribute that's helpful, just keep quiet.
This match-up was actually agreed to be neutral quite some time ago after LONG debate (somewhere in Character Match-up Chart in Tactical Boards).
I'd probably say it's 45:55 Olimar's favour.

 

[Tenki]

Oh yeah, and planting springs under Olimar at the beginning of each stock is always fun to try.

 

[R4ZE]

ASC. sheild cancel. win.

tether grabs cant grab-counter ASC. so they fail.

+gimp...

fino is a noob who picks high tier chars because he thinks that he is the best smasher, and if he is losing it must be because his char is bad, not him... which is why he mains olimar..

 

[Gea]

Uhh pretty sure Oli has the advantage. He can sit in his shield if you get close and punish. Sonic's gimping strengths are ironically more limited against Oli... Honestly the only thing Sonic has in this matchup is counterpick stages (just like everyone vs Oli) and a better grab game than most characters do against Oli.

 

[ROOOOY!]

All right ROOOOY! When edge hogging be ready to roll or jump off before they could throw a purple pikmin at you.

Don't let pikmins latch onto and be weary when Olimar tries to bait you. I think you can spot dodge or up smash the pikmin off you.

Insta-grab ledge => Drop down => jump => re-grab ledge = regained edge invincibility frames. Not too hard, especially considering the purple Pikmin's airspeed isn't too hot.

Sonic > Pikmanz. Seriously, his Pikmin Throw isn't a problem. If you're not moving fast enough to avoid them latching on to you, shame on you. However, if they are, just nair. It's sexy to kill all Pikmin attached to you in one pretty spin.

 

[Fino]

Just...WHY make comments like that? They're not constuctive, not helpful, just really scrubby.

Unfortunately, that is the reality of brawl. You can't win tournaments using just one character (unless you're MK *puts up another flame shield). If you have a bad match up, you need to learn a character to cover that match up.
That's how you win.

ASC. sheild cancel. win.

tether grabs cant grab-counter ASC. so they fail.

+gimp...

fino is a noob who picks high tier chars because he thinks that he is the best smasher, and if he is losing it must be because his char is bad, not him... which is why he mains olimar..

lol, olimar is middle tier, and in no way do I think I'm the best.
All's I'm saying, sonic is ridiculously easy matchup for olimar


~Fino

 

[thecatinthehat]

Unfortunately, that is the reality of brawl. You can't win tournaments using just one character (unless you're MK *puts up another flame shield). If you have a bad match up, you need to learn a character to cover that match up.
That's how you win.



lol, olimar is middle tier, and in no way do I think I'm the best.
All's I'm saying, sonic is ridiculously easy to play against.


~Fino

GTFO n00b. Instead of throwing that generalized statement around, why not be productive and substantiate your point. "Sonic is easy to beat." Maybe, but how so?

Tiers are for queers. What, you play according to the tiers, you take shit from the BRoomers?

 

[Napilopez]

Uhh pretty sure Oli has the advantage. He can sit in his shield if you get close and punish. Sonic's gimping strengths are ironically more limited against Oli... Honestly the only thing Sonic has in this matchup is counterpick stages (just like everyone vs Oli) and a better grab game than most characters do against Oli.

=/ I know you're trying to contribute, but this is all wrong. Sonic's gimping strength is more limited against oli? Oli is one of the easiest chars for sonic to gimp. The problem, at least for me is getting him offstage so you can gimp him. Eve if Oli is able to use his tether, you can expect a bair stage spike, as all tether recoveries are significantly more succeptible too. Although thats not match-up specific as much as player choice. Also, Sonic is less vulnerable to pikmin spam than probably any other char, because just about every move he has removes them, lol.

Now let me say that Oli is by far my hardest match-up, but thats mostly because the Oli's I've faced were spammers on Wi-Fi with a bleh connection, so it didn't allow my Sonic to get in his face well when oli can just grab+grab+grab+fsmash+dsmash+usmash all day(Not saying this is how all Oli's play, just mostly the ones I've faced). Once I'm facing an Oli wih a good connection, it becomes significantly more easy to get up in his face with an ASC or something. And Sonic> Oli in the air.

I still call this match-up in Oli's favor, at least against my Sonic. It's still my hardest matchup, but its not as much in Oli's advantage as one would think.


To OP, I think you may want to look up into match-ups more. Luigi really isn't that bad if you don't take your fight in the air, and even in the air, you have your ways of getting past him. Falco some people hate, but I think its one of Sonic's better matchups. Pikachu I can't say much because I've faced few good Pikas, but I don't think its that bad. You may want to look into these other match-ups.

 

[Fino]

GTFO n00b. Instead of throwing that generalized statement around, why not be productive and substantiate your point. "Sonic is easy to beat." Maybe, but how so?

Tiers are for queers. What, you play according to the tiers, you take shit from the BRoomers?

Lol. I like how I make a statement that has substance to it, and you all jump to calling me a noob. Oh well. I'm just trying to tell you that olimar has the advantage against sonic.

I don't know why you guys are hoping to the tiers battle. Olimar is MID-TIER. As in, he's not that great either. but he DOES have the advantage.

Why?

It's nearly impossible for sonic to approach olimar. Olimar is short, and thus most aerial approaches sonic has are moot, or easily defended by olimar's range. So you can always go for an approach on the ground, but all of sonics ground approaches can be grabbed out of by olimar.
Beyond approaches, olimar has range, priority (to some extent), and is faster. WAIT? ZOMG N00B! SONIC IS TEH FAZTEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, he can run very quickly, and though I can't claim to know sonics moveset, most of sonics moves suffer horrendous lag, while olimar's attacks come out a lot quicker.

There's a start.


~Fino

 

[ROOOOY!]

Unfortunately, that is the reality of brawl. You can't win tournaments using just one character (unless you're MK *puts up another flame shield). If you have a bad match up, you need to learn a character to cover that match up.
That's how you win.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY&feature=related

Final Smash 3 : The New Frontier
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164129
April 19th, 2008
Out of 49:
1st - Mr 3000 (Sonic)

Area 51 Biweekly 4
http://www.arena51.com/nuke/modules....ewtopic&t=2202
July 05th, 2008
Out of 16:
1st - K.I.D.Goggles (Sonic)

MGC Tournament

August 16th
Out of 35:
X - 1st (Sonic)

There's more, but I think I've made my point. Wtf are you talking about that a single character can't win a tournament? Of course it can, that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ofbhkbk42Jc

I want them clean. All clean.


Edit :

Yes, he can run very quickly, and though I can't claim to know sonics moveset, most of sonics moves suffer horrendous lag, while olimar's attacks come out a lot quicker.

Hey, I've got a good idea. Stop making assumptions about a character you admit yourself you don't even know.

 

[Chis]

Lol. I like how I make a statement that has substance to it, and you all jump to calling me a noob. Oh well. I'm just trying to tell you that olimar has the advantage against sonic.

I don't know why you guys are hoping to the tiers battle. Olimar is MID-TIER. As in, he's not that great either. but he DOES have the advantage.

Why?

It's nearly impossible for sonic to approach olimar. Olimar is short, and thus most aerial approaches sonic has are moot, or easily defended by olimar's range. So you can always go for an approach on the ground, but all of sonics ground approaches can be grabbed out of by olimar.
Beyond approaches, olimar has range, priority (to some extent), and is faster. WAIT? ZOMG N00B! SONIC IS TEH FAZTEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, he can run very quickly, and though I can't claim to know sonics moveset, most of sonics moves suffer horrendous lag, while olimar's attacks come out a lot quicker.
There's a start.


~Fino

Good thing that was at the end because I stopped reading there.

 

[Fino]

1). Oli is one of the easiest chars for sonic to gimp.


2). Also, Sonic is less vulnerable to pikmin spam than probably any other char, because just about every move he has removes them, lol.



3). Now let me say that Oli is by far my hardest match-up, but thats mostly because the Oli's I've faced were spammers on Wi-Fi with a bleh connection, so it didn't allow my Sonic to get in his face well when oli can just grab+grab+grab+fsmash+dsmash+usmash all day(Not saying this is how all Oli's play, just mostly the ones I've faced). Once I'm facing an Oli wih a good connection, it becomes significantly more easy to get up in his face with an ASC or something. And Sonic> Oli in the air.

1). How so? I haven't seen sonic with incredible ledge game, so I wouldn't know. Whistle, fair/bair stage spikes, Uairs, purple pikmin, and tether spike threat are all things in olimar's arsenal to get back on stage.

2). Fact. I would venture to say that sonic is the least susceptible character to pikmin spam (besides sword wielders).

3). It's an unfortunate fact that there's people on wifi like that. I'm sorry


~Fino

 

[thecatinthehat]

Lol. I like how I make a statement that has substance to it, and you all jump to calling me a noob. Oh well. I'm just trying to tell you that olimar has the advantage against sonic.

I don't know why you guys are hoping to the tiers battle. Olimar is MID-TIER. As in, he's not that great either. but he DOES have the advantage.

Why?

It's nearly impossible for sonic to approach olimar. Olimar is short, and thus most aerial approaches sonic has are moot, or easily defended by olimar's range. So you can always go for an approach on the ground, but all of sonics ground approaches can be grabbed out of by olimar.
Beyond approaches, olimar has range, priority (to some extent), and is faster. WAIT? ZOMG N00B! SONIC IS TEH FAZTEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, he can run very quickly, and though I can't claim to know sonics moveset, most of sonics moves suffer horrendous lag, while olimar's attacks come out a lot quicker.

There's a start.


~Fino

OK...I'll give you props for adding proof. But trying learning facts about Sonic before judging him.

Sonic does not have to commit to his approaches. He can easily opt out in many of his approaches. Olimar on the other hand can be punished if he misses a grab.
ASC shield cancel > force Olimar to grab > punishment.

Horrendous Lag? No. Average lag.

 

[Fino]

Haha, you guys prove my point. You're so close minded.
Thank you.
I'll make reference to this thread later


~Fino

 

[thecatinthehat]

Haha, you guys prove my point. You're so close minded.
Thank you.
I'll make reference to this thread later


~Fino

Another statement with no background as to how it's true. Close minded? How so?
In no way did we prove your point.

 

[Fino]

OK...I'll give you props for adding proof. But trying learning facts about Sonic before judging him.

Sonic does not have to commit to his approaches. He can easily opt out in many of his approaches. Olimar on the other hand can be punished if he misses a grab.
ASC shield cancel > force Olimar to grab > punishment.

Horrendous Lag? No. Average lag.

Thank you for posting something back instead of making useless remarks back.
ASC shield cancel? I'm not familiar with this, could you explain . With everything having 8 different names now it really detracts from the meaning.

And sorry, I exaggerated a bit, but from my point of view olimar's attacks will always come out first, and when I watch vids and see sonics in tournaments I that as well.
Average lag is still more than olimar's lag, which was the point I was trying to make


~Fino

 

[Chis]

Edit: Never mind!

 

[Fino]

Hey, I've got a good idea. Stop making assumptions about a character you admit yourself you don't even know.

So because I don't play every character in that game, I'm not allowed to say things based on playing against them?
Your logic is BRILLIANT!


~Fino

 

[ROOOOY!]

Fino, I responded the way I did because you can't simply say that Sonic has horrendous lag with nothing to back it up.

Lmao, isn't that always the way?
Some scrub comes in here, calls Sonic crap and how he obviously can't approach anyone and can't even touch their beloved main. They tell us all about Sonic, lag and all, because obviously THEY KNOW THE ****ING CHARACTER BETTER THAN THE ACTUAL MAINS DO.
The only valid point you made is that Sonic shouldn't be approaching from the air, which I actually covered earlier on in this thread.
Close minded indeed.
Go away forever, we'll actually help our mains like we were doing before you burst in being self-righteous. Go and tug on your fellow mainers Pikmin, you're pathetic in the sense that you can't even handle straight facts, which is all you've been presented with.

So back to discussing the match-up. Sonic has to play very feinty and trippy (see Tenki's style of Sonic) because of obvious range disadvantages. Once there is an opening, you need to punish hard, because it's the only consistant way of racking up damage you've got.
How would you guys go about punishing a missed grab (you're floating just out of range)?

 

[thecatinthehat]

ASC shield cancel was only an example.
My point is, Sonic has many ways to alter/cancel his approach.
Not only that, any decent Sonic will rarely put themselves in a position where they can be punished in their end lag. Thus, before attacking, they must find a reason to attack.

 

[Fino]

Lmao, isn't that always the way?
Some scrub comes in here, calls Sonic crap and how he obviously can't approach anyone and can't even touch their beloved main. They tell us all about Sonic, lag and all, because obviously THEY KNOW THE ****ING CHARACTER BETTER THAN THE ACTUAL MAINS DO.
The only valid point out made is that Sonic shouldn't be approaching from the air, which I actually covered earlier on in this thread.
Close minded indeed.
Go away forever, we'll actually help our mains like we were doing before you burst in being self-righteous. Go and tug on your fellow mainers Pikmin, you're pathetic in the sense that you can't even handle straight facts, which is all you've been presented with.

So back to discussing the match-up. Sonic has to play very feinty and trippy (see Tenki's style of Sonic) because of obvious range disadvantages. Once there is an opening, you need to punish hard, because it's the only consistant way of racking up damage you've got.
How would you guys go about punishing a missed grab (you're floating just out of range)?

So, I'm a scrub because I'm right? Gah, feel like I have to troll to get through to you people, you just don't get it do you. Look at my tournament record.
I'm not saying I know the character better than you, I conceded to the fact that I don't know him (because I don't main him), but I have played him enough to make valid arguments based on experience.
Let me use your own point against you. Because you don't main olimar.... how can you talk about him better than I can?

TELL me... what straight facts. I've gotten you're a scrub and a n00b. facts? no. there have been a couple who have posted something, to which I've replied.

And to note the tier thing, i've played olimar since a week before the game came out in the states, thanks you . I don't play tiers.

EDIT: I wasn't saying end lag only, but start up lag as well. fsmash for instance seems to take forever to come out (oops that's me exaggerating again).


~Fino

 

[Fino]

DOUBLE POST
sorry

 

[thecatinthehat]

Experience against a character doesn't mean anything.
For all we know, the Sonic's you have played before may have been scrubs.
This is something the Fox boards need to learn as well

 

[Fino]

Experience against a character doesn't mean anything.
For all we know, the Sonic's you have played before may have been scrubs.
This is something the Fox boards need to learn as well

True, I can't say that I've played a sonic a high level tournament play. That isn't in any way a burn in itself, but I'm just saying... I haven't seen one either (knowing the way this thread has been going *puts up two flame shields*)


~Fino

 

[ROOOOY!]

Nice double post.
We don't mean you're literally a scrub or a noob, it's just a mannerism at these boards for when someone posts something in our eyes pretty painful, we don't really take player skill into account.
As for the insult, that was pretty immature on my part and I apologise.

And this whole thread other than those words from our side has been pretty factual really. I posted tournament wins going pure Sonic even though you claimed it was impossible going anyone but pure MK,
I mentioned that Sonic has a hard time approaching aerially which is a fact that you agree with yourself. There's more, really. You'll find I wasn't being unreasonable until you started making false accusations about Sonic which annoys me no end.
To be honest this wasn't supposed to be a match-up discussion anyway and we didn't really ask for your input. All the guy wanted was specific match-up tips, and we were giving him the basics. When you come in and say Sonic is boringly easy to fight, you're going to get a response considering you're posting in Sonic boards. The fact that for a while you were giving no evidence/false information doesn't really help your credibility, either.

tl;dr

1. Sorry for the insult
2. We don't want your input.

 

[Chis]

I would have pointed out the many ways you were wrong but...

Sigh....

 

[Fino]

UGH, ignore this

 

[ROOOOY!]

Oh, and I don't blame you for not playing any high-level Sonic's.
People seem to be under the delusion that Sonic is one of the most popular characters.
Kinda...
For scrubs he's used a lot, though most good players avoid using him.

And the skill gap between standard level (which is really scrubby for Sonic's) and pretty good is exceedingly high.

 

[Tenki]

You people are turning this into Sonic vs Lucario all over again. Quit making passes at each other and get to the topic at hand :l


edit1: It's not like Fino's trying to main Sonic, so you don't need to troll him to get him to go away lol.




@ Fino:
Tilts are somewhat fast. Some of Sonic's aerials (D-air, U-air, B-air) should, if started before entering Olimar's range, negate Pikmin attacks. At least, that's what I've seen.

Basing Sonic's 'lag' based on his slowest moves is like judging Ike's speed based off of his slowest moves. Sure, it can be true, but in actual gameplay, do Ike mains use their slowest and most punishable moves? No, they use jabs.

F-smash is slow, and it's his strongest launching move. I don't know about the other Sonic mains, but I tend to use it as a spotdodge punisher/edgeguard (slight charge). If I want a non-charged smash kill, I'd use D-smash, which has a much lower startup lag. But yeah, his kill moves have noticeable lag.

I'm not sure about your comment about not approaching from the air. That seems to be the most effective way to approach Olimar, since his attacks can either be beaten out by something like D-air,B-air, or ASC, airdodged, or DJ d-air-countered, while avoiding the 'grab' issue.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Well. Let me try...

Olimar plays alot of grabs. In this Sonic is one of the hardest characters to grab, due to his speed.
Olimar has a good aerial game. Sonic can play ground game as good as air game. Thus, if opponent has good air game, Sonic must play ground game. Olimars have a tendency to grab on the ground. Since Sonic is nigh impossible to grab, Sonic gets the point here.

 

[Tenki]

Well. Let me try...

Olimar plays alot of grabs. In this Sonic is one of the hardest characters to grab, due to his speed.
Olimar has a good aerial game. Sonic can play ground game as good as air game. Thus, if opponent has good air game, Sonic must play ground game. Olimars have a tendency to grab on the ground. Since Sonic is nigh impossible to grab, Sonic gets the point here.

Olimar has a spammable grab.

If you EVER go for a SDR approach, you'll probably get grabbed. If you try to spotdodge a Fsmash, you're probably going to get grabbed. If you try to roll, you'll get grabbed/D-smashed.

He has a good ground-defense game, but you're still safer going in from the air and nullifying pikmin attacks with your own, or spring.

 

[Fino]

@ Fino:
Tilts are somewhat fast. Some of Sonic's aerials (D-air, U-air, B-air) should, if started before entering Olimar's range, negate Pikmin attacks. At least, that's what I've seen.

Basing Sonic's 'lag' based on his slowest moves is like judging Ike's speed based off of his slowest moves. Sure, it can be true, but in actual gameplay, do Ike mains use their slowest and most punishable moves? No, they use jabs.

F-smash is slow, and it's his strongest launching move. I don't know about the other Sonic mains, but I tend to use it as a spotdodge punisher/edgeguard (slight charge). If I want a non-charged smash kill, I'd use D-smash, which has a much lower startup lag. But yeah, his kill moves have noticeable lag.

I'm not sure about your comment about not approaching from the air. That seems to be the most effective way to approach Olimar, since his attacks can either be beaten out by something like D-air,B-air, or ASC, airdodged, or DJ d-air-countered, while avoiding the 'grab' issue.

Agreed, many attacks negate pikmin attacks, the issue I think is that olimar can get another attack off before sonic. Bair does **** though

Agreed, sorry for the generalization

On the last part, I would say that bair beats olimar hands down. the only thing olly has on that is a WAC (whistle armor cancel) aerial. I still don't know what ASC is, so I went ahead and put an olly term that you guys might not know . You have to be careful about aerial dodges, because Uair will last the entire duration of it, if not longer, and olly can go from uair to nair (very hard to punish). I do think that given the choice of approaching, ground vs air, air would be better for sonic because olimar will just grab sonic out of ground approaches.

Well. Let me try...

Olimar plays alot of grabs. In this Sonic is one of the hardest characters to grab, due to his speed.
Olimar has a good aerial game. Sonic can play ground game as good as air game. Thus, if opponent has good air game, Sonic must play ground game. Olimars have a tendency to grab on the ground. Since Sonic is nigh impossible to grab, Sonic gets the point here.

I actually disagree - sonic's head first, melee-like mentality makes it easier for olimar to grab. Olimar can grab sonic out of a lot of his moves. And olimar's are grab whores (it's too good to get away from).


~Fino


EDIT:
Question, who has priority..... olimar nair of sonic bair?


~Fino

 

[Tenki]

lol this is funny
~Tenki

{1} Agreed, many attacks negate pikmin attacks, the issue I think is that olimar can get another attack off before sonic. Bair does **** though

Agreed, sorry for the generalization

On the last part, I would say that bair beats olimar hands down. the only thing olly has on that is a WAC (whistle armor cancel) aerial. {2} I still don't know what ASC is, so I went ahead and put an olly term that you guys might not know . You have to be careful about aerial dodges, because Uair will last the entire duration of it, if not longer, and olly can go from uair to nair (very hard to punish). {3} I do think that given the choice of approaching, ground vs air, air would be better for sonic because olimar will just grab sonic out of ground approaches.



I actually disagree - sonic's head first, melee-like mentality makes it easier for olimar to grab. Olimar can grab sonic out of a lot of his moves. And olimar's are grab whores (it's too good to get away from).


~Fino


EDIT:
{4} Question, who has priority..... olimar nair of sonic bair?


~Fino

1) Well, with D-air, it's kind of risky, especially if not finished / "autocancelled", so I mentioned it as a double jump D-air counter (the double jump moves him out of range, then D-air dives in to attack landing lag. If it nullifies your pikmin attack, it will still hit you upwards, if you're on the ground.
~Tenki


2) ASC is Aerial Spin Charge (aerial down-B) - its damage is based on how fast Sonic is going (so holding forward would make it deal 'max damage' possible, stale move taken into effect). But the cool thing is that as long as he's moving in a direction, it will still have an attack box, unlike his side-B. So hit 1 can hit your pikmin and hit 2 can hit you. Or if you shield, hit 1 and 2 can eat your shield, then he can double jump away before you can grab or U-smash. And it's shield-cancellable on landing, so he can... grab, too. If it makes contact, it'll pop you upwards.
~Tenki

3) I whole heartedly agree.
~Tenki

4) Don't take my word fully for it, but if Oli has his out first, then he'll win, of course. I think they'll trade hits though, if both attack boxes are out at the same time.
~Tenki