Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[GHNeko]

1-3 frames of invicilibity with the damage, hitbox, BKB, and KBG made to be proportionate with the addition would not make nair too good.

Add it in as it, and if its too good, you change other aspects to balance it out.


Logic plz.

 

[iSpiN]

1-3 frames of invicilibity with the damage, hitbox, BKB, and KBG made to be proportionate with the addition would not make nair too good.

Add it in as it, and if its too good, you change other aspects to balance it out.


Logic plz.

A lot of people didn't like the idea actually, it was a completely shut down idea, but I wouldn't mind revisiting it again.

 

[GHNeko]

Go ahead and do it, just confirm it IS possible to do something like add those frames.

 

[iSpiN]

Go ahead and do it, just confirm it IS possible to do something like add those frames.

No one in the IRC can give me a straight one *ahem* guy just gave me a yes, no, maybe response so maybe we'll have to wait on that one.

So if we buff Spincharge I assume SpinDash gets no love? XD

 

[GHNeko]

I've always wanted to give Spindash a bigger hitbox.

I've also wanted to make the first hit of Uair pull in so it link to the second one.

 

[iSpiN]

Quoting from the IRC:

I've also wanted to make the first hit of Uair pull in so it link to the second one.

I don't think anyone saw a problem with the existing Uair.



Edit:

I overlooked the Sonic boards, they DID in fact have full frame data of Dtilt.

Dtilt: Frame 6
ends: frame 27
Crouching while performing a Dtilt will actually cause Sonic to go back into a crouching position unless he does another Dtilt.

 

[GHNeko]

Quoting from the IRC:
This is the REAL reason we couldn't do anything like that to Nair, now that is settled we don't have to revisit it anymore.
I don't think anyone saw a problem with the existing Uair.



Edit:

I overlooked the Sonic boards, they DID in fact have full frame data of Dtilt.

Well, nothing was wrong uair, but making it better wont hurt.

As If said before in the IRC, making Sonic into an amazing character with a plethora of potential playstyles would be better into leaving Sonic as a decent character with a plethora of potential playstyles. :V

 

[Blank Mauser]

Well, nothing was wrong uair, but making it better wont hurt.

As If said before in the IRC, making Sonic into an amazing character with a plethora of potential playstyles would be better into leaving Sonic as a decent character with a plethora of potential playstyles. :V

Right now, I'm kind of being conservative, but if more people had your mindset I'm totally for this.

 

[iSpiN]

Is it easy to DI out of the first hit?

 

[GHNeko]

With perdiction/guessing, it was easy as hell to SDI out of, and even without DI, because of sonic's incredible monentum, it was possible (and currently still is) to Run > SH Uair and only have the first hit of uair connect and by the time the second one came out, you were already a character's lengths away. Hell, it still is possible when you try following up DI'd throws with uair and you only slide a little bit while uair'ing cuz you misaimed your uair a smidge.

It doesnt happen alot, but it happens enough imo.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Is it easy to DI out of the first hit?

If you expect it its pretty easy, but you can space/time it so you hit with the hitbox you want for killing.

 

[iSpiN]

We need to conduct some of our own DI tests for Uair and see for ourselves how easy it is. If it is infact easy then it will need improvement after all.

 

[crazycrackers]

As Peach, I find it REALLY easy to DI the first hit of Uair. I've done it by ACCIDENT for that matter

 

[Blank Mauser]

Honestly a lot of Sonic's multi-hit moves are only going to get worst as people learn to play against him. I share Dark Sonic's sentiments on Sonic's fair and how you can get punished for landing it. Point being, if its possible to DI it at all is it really reliable?

Like I said though, the disjointed part is easy to DI, but you can hit with the ending hitbox if you do it correctly. Coupled with the Uairs disjointedness, a better linking Uair would probably be pretty helpful.

 

[Cytrs]

his aerial game is ruined by good di. fair has troubles landing final hit, and uair can easily be DI'd on first hit (why i usually only try for the last hit). uair buff would be filthy.

 

[Yingyay]

Multi-hitting moves usually have this problem.
Zelda for instance, if the player knew how to SDI her usmash, they'd land right next to her while she's waving goodbye or hi to palutena. >_>
Pikachu's Dsmash is in the same category so its just something we gotta work around until I guess there's away for multiple hit moves to trap their opponents in DI or not. But I dont think that should happen.

 

[iSpiN]

It seems we have been making some great progress within a few days of discussing Sonic. I made a personal priority list (this does not reflect all the ideals of the community) last night about all the things I would like to see for Sonic ordered by importance.

Sonic's List of Priorities (he doesn't have it) (in Order!) :

1. SpinCharge(DownB) Hitbox Modifier- 10-15?% larger- The reasoning for this is because Sonic's DownB is not only one of his most useful specials, but also the most metagame driven. Lets face it, Sonic's ASC does in fact need a buff, but not only will it buff ASC, but also SCJ, grounded SS, and the plain ole' grounded SpinCharge. Also, due to lack of priority in DownB, a larger hitbox would give Sonic a LOT move options. And maybe possibly giving Sonic's old DownB momentum back?


2. Bair Frame Modifier- (-) 2-4? frames on Startup- If you were going to buff Sonic's air game this is probably the number 1 thing to be looked into. Sonic's 13 frame startup is much too laggy for Brawl+'s new momentum not to mention it was probably too slow in Brawl anyways. While we are not looking to make it OP by giving Sonic a fast killing move, we are simply giving Sonic the means to keep up with the rest of the cast by giving him a faster spacing tool/killing option. The move is mediocre in the priority department and is in no fashion to be great or amazing, but by Sonic's standard it's another option to his versatility.


3. Something for Nair- Its still quite useless- We need more ideas for this one.

Modifying the hitbox may or may not be out. We can buff the hitbox very slightly so we don't have to have animations/graphics to compliment it. Making it stronger seems kinda out there since we already buffed it and we really don't want to make it a killer move anyways. We could make it end faster so it can have aerial followups such as Uair, but we would have to make it pretty quick. Someone also mentioned if we can make the Nair send characters at a certain trajectory, possible?


4. Usmash Spike- 0-360? Degrees- While we have yet to confirm what the Usmash shall be used for, the board has come to an agreement some kind of Spike/Meteor can be used for Usmash. Once we figure that out we'll let you know.

Also, stay aware that you will have an entire character board that will continue to do w/e to keep it/take it out of the game. We must try to have the community come to terms if we are to implement such a radical idea to Sonic. If we fail to do that then the idea of a spiking Usmash will also fail. While I am for this buff, this is a community driven project and if an entire character board cannot come to terms with it then we can't just shut them out of the project and do what we want. The outcome of that would be distratrous.


5. Making Uair less DIable- If what is said is true on how easy it is to DI then we should consider making Uair have a suction capabilities on the 1st hit. While Yingyay has a good point of multihit moves need to be work around, this is one of those moves we will rely a lot on in Sonic's metagame.


6. Homing Attack Buff- Another meaningless attack that offers more risk than reward sometimes. I was considering buffing the damage since we have not chance of making it spike. Maybe modifying the hitbox instead could be another option.


7. Dtilt Frame Modifier- (-) ____? frames on cool down- Apparently floaty's get out of Dtilt quite easily and can just Nair out of it. Yes, that includes characters like Kirby and Luigi. Less frames on cooldown so we can have followups for these characters may just be necessary.



Thoughts?

 

[Blank Mauser]

It seems we have been making some great progress within a few days of discussing Sonic. I made a personal priority list (this does not reflect all the ideals of the community) last night about all the things I would like to see for Sonic ordered by importance.

Sonic's List of Priorities (he doesn't have it) (in Order!) :

1. SpinCharge(DownB) Hitbox Modifier- 10-15?% larger- The reasoning for this is because Sonic's DownB is not only one of his most useful specials, but also the most metagame driven. Lets face it, Sonic's ASC does in fact need a buff, but not only will it buff ASC, but also SCJ, grounded SS, and the plain ole' grounded SpinCharge. Also, due to lack of priority in DownB, a larger hitbox would give Sonic a LOT move options. And maybe possibly giving Sonic's old DownB momentum back?


2. Bair Frame Modifier- (-) 2-4? frames on Startup- If you were going to buff Sonic's air game this is probably the number 1 thing to be looked into. Sonic's 13 frame startup is much too laggy for Brawl+'s new momentum not to mention it was probably too slow in Brawl anyways. While we are not looking to make it OP by giving Sonic a fast killing move, we are simply giving Sonic the means to keep up with the rest of the cast by giving him a faster spacing tool/killing option. The move is mediocre in the priority department and is in no fashion to be great or amazing, but by Sonic's standard it's another option to his versatility.


3. Something for Nair- Its still quite useless- We need more ideas for this one.

Modifying the hitbox may or may not be out. We can buff the hitbox very slightly so we don't have to have animations/graphics to compliment it. Making it stronger seems kinda out there since we already buffed it and we really don't want to make it a killer move anyways. We could make it end faster so it can have aerial followups such as Uair, but we would have to make it pretty quick. Someone also mentioned if we can make the Nair send characters at a certain trajectory, possible?


4. Usmash Spike- 0-360? Degrees- While we have yet to confirm what the Usmash shall be used for, the board has come to an agreement some kind of Spike/Meteor can be used for Usmash. Once we figure that out we'll let you know.

Also, stay aware that you will have an entire character board that will continue to do w/e to keep it/take it out of the game. We must try to have the community come to terms if we are to implement such a radical idea to Sonic. If we fail to do that then the idea of a spiking Usmash will also fail. While I am for this buff, this is a community driven project and if an entire character board cannot come to terms with it then we can't just shut them out of the project and do what we want. The outcome of that would be distratrous.


5. Making Uair less DIable- If what is said is true on how easy it is to DI then we should consider making Uair have a suction capabilities on the 1st hit. While Yingyay has a good point of multihit moves need to be work around, this is one of those moves we will rely a lot on in Sonic's metagame.


6. Homing Attack Buff- Another meaningless attack that offers more risk than reward sometimes. I was considering buffing the damage since we have not chance of making it spike. Maybe modifying the hitbox instead could be another option.


7. Dtilt Frame Modifier- (-) ____? frames on cool down- Apparently floaty's get out of Dtilt quite easily and can just Nair out of it. Yes, that includes characters like Kirby and Luigi. Less frames on cooldown so we can have followups for these characters may just be necessary.



Thoughts?

Okay for 4, we ARE Sonic's character board right now. We ARE the players who play Sonic in Brawl+. An entire character board for vBrawl going against us is the least of our worries. Right now I'm glad to have people being understanding with Sonic so don't ruin my comfort. The only person I'm being wary of is Dark Sonic, who believes Sonic may not need too much help. Which is a respectable position. As for the Usmash being a meteor sending forward, Usmash is a largely DI dependant move. To really make it spike forward may take a KB increase.

For 3, if it was a slight kill move it wouldn't be a bad thing in the least. Being able to techchase with Nair after Usmash spike or use it as an aerial finisher would offer more versatility I think. An enlargement to ASC will cover most things that an enlarged nair would, and a better linking Uair would cover most things a combo nair would. A killing Nair is something Sonic has already had, and it being a relatively safe(Albeit a bit weak) killer with momentum makes it unique in Sonic's moveset considering his other kill moves take so much commitment or are slow and hard to setup.

Other then that you missed the part with leaving springs out until next use. Good summary though.

 

[iSpiN]

Okay for 4, we ARE Sonic's character board right now. We ARE the players who play Sonic in Brawl+. An entire character board for vBrawl going against us is the least of our worries.

I still consider the Sonic boards apart of the community, but if they do in fact NOT play Brawl+, then I can understand your reasoning.

Right now I'm glad to have people being understanding with Sonic so don't ruin my comfort. The only person I'm being wary of is Dark Sonic, who believes Sonic may not need too much help. Which is a respectable position.

Personally, I only think Sonic needs 1/2, the rest are just small tweaks.

As for the Usmash being a meteor sending forward, Usmash is a largely DI dependent move. To really make it spike forward may take a KB increase.

How much KB?

For 3, if it was a slight kill move it wouldn't be a bad thing in the least. Being able to techchase with Nair after Usmash spike or use it as an aerial finisher would offer more versatility I think.

Why would you finish with Nair when you could just Fair or Bair? How would that make it versatile?

versatility- (adj) having or capable of many uses

Sorry, had to double check what versatile meant. 8)

Nair being sort of a tech chaser would be the only option I would think of using it. Its low amount of landing lag frames is the main reason I use it now. Maybe if we weakened again we could make it combo.

Like Nair > Dtilt > Utilt > Uair maybe?

An enlargement to ASC will cover most things that an enlarged nair would

Can't argue with that one.

and a better linking Uair would cover most things a combo nair would.

Oh? Does the DI issues only happen against floaties by chance? I just had to ask that question.

A killing Nair is something Sonic has already had, and it being a relatively safe(Albeit a bit weak) killer with momentum makes it unique in Sonic's moveset considering his other kill moves take so much commitment or are slow and hard to setup.

Hmm, point well made, but I would still prefer Fair over Nair unless we plan to raise the KB a little more.

Other then that you missed the part with leaving springs out until next use. Good summary though.

I apologize, I forgot about it. Currently the spring is out 240 frames (4 seconds). Maybe we can possibly double the amount of time and make it 8 seconds instead?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Why would you finish with Nair when you could just Fair or Bair? How would that make it versatile?

versatility- (adj) having or capable of many uses

Sorry, had to double check what versatile meant. 8)

Nair being sort of a tech chaser would be the only option I would think of using it. Its low amount of landing lag frames is the main reason I use it now. Maybe if we weakened again we could make it combo.

Fair is a multi-hit move and will most likely only kill off-stage. Bair is too slow to land in a combo at killing percents. Even if it was faster, it wouldn't be guaranteed without some RAR'ing and great DI following. Nair on the other hand is fast and safe with momentum. besides that, we're forgetting that Nair has more then one hitbox. The sweetspot can be the killer, while the rest of the hitbox can combo. Problem solved.

I apologize, I forgot about it. Currently the spring is out 240 frames (4 seconds). Maybe we can possibly double the amount of time and make it 8 seconds instead?

I think we can just remove the timer in general.

Oh? Does the DI issues only happen against floaties by chance? I just had to ask that question.

Uair is easy to DI with anyone really.

How much KB?

Not sure, it would need testing.

 

[iSpiN]

Fair is a multi-hit move and will most likely only kill off-stage. Bair is too slow to land in a combo at killing percents. Even if it was faster, it wouldn't be guaranteed without some RAR'ing and great DI following. Nair on the other hand is fast and safe with momentum. besides that, we're forgetting that Nair has more then one hitbox. The sweetspot can be the killer, while the rest of the hitbox can combo. Problem solved.

Fine I submit

I think we can just remove the timer in general.

For such a conservative that idea sounds quite radical.

Uair is easy to DI with anyone really.

If thats the case then how would we modify it to fix our little dilemma?

Not sure, it would need testing.

k then.

 

[Blank Mauser]

For such a conservative that idea sounds quite radical.

Dark_Sonic and me discussed this before, its not tooooo far-fetched. Just something he could always do before, except made practical.

If thats the case then how would we modify it to fix our little dilemma?

I'm thinking change the angle, no KBG, and lower BKB.

 

[Cytrs]

A killing nair would be cool, imo. the other stuff sounds sexy.

who cares what vBrawl boards say? this is brawl+.

 

[iSpiN]

Dark_Sonic and me discussed this before, its not tooooo far-fetched. Just something he could always do before, except made practical.

Can you make a few scenarios where this would be useful for me?

I'm thinking change the angle, no KBG, and lower BKB.

This would work?...What about taking account of Sonic's momentum when the move is used?

who cares what vBrawl boards say? this is brawl+.

Because they developed the existing metagame which we are building on now. But if they are not playing B+ THEN what they say does not matter. But the ones that care the most supposedly play. Whether thats true or not I do not know. Regardless, lets move on from that.

 

[yami_sora]

The way I see it if multi-hit moves are so easy to DI then why not make Sonic's nair a killing blow since his fair and uair are easy to DI and thus unreliable. I'm not saying it should kill at 80% but if you're off the stage and a moderately sized character is out there with a good amount of damage let the nair kill them. It would help to alleviate the problems of his multi-hit moves and also give Sonic another option and another chance to mix up his strategy during battle to keep your opponent guessing at what your next move will be.

 

[iSpiN]

Current Nair Changes:

Sonic's nair changes (by overwhelming sonic player demand):
-hitbox 1: 11dmg 80 KBG 30BKB angle:20 (KBG increased by 5 to 85, BKB increased to 50 from 30)
-hitbox 2: BKB increased by 10 (30 from 20)
-hitbox 3: unchanged

What should be changed from this?

 

[yami_sora]

Well in my opinion I don't think the damage has to be changed, just the knock back, maybe something with that unchanged hitbox too, but less than the first two.

 

[GHNeko]

You could give Sonic a Doc Mario sex kick. :V

 

[yami_sora]

Well I was thinking of having the nair have sex kick properties, but did Dr. Mario's sex kick send you horizontally? Since most of them send you up and that's not really what I wanted, Sonic has plenty of other ways to do that.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

90-95 growth on the first hitbox sounds like a good starting point if you want to make it a reasonable kill move without making it stupid.

I honestly think the move is good as is, but eh. Its craptacular priority should balance out the initial hitbox kill power.

EDIT:
Doc Mario's Sex Kick was actually strongest with its later hitboxes, rather than its initial hitbox like all other sex kicks. I think that's what GHNeko meant. :V

 

[yami_sora]

That I did not know, so is that what you meant then? To have the 3rd hitbox be the most effective?

 

[GHNeko]

Well I was thinking of having the nair have sex kick properties, but did Dr. Mario's sex kick send you horizontally? Since most of them send you up and that's not really what I wanted, Sonic has plenty of other ways to do that.

The highlight of Doc's Sex kick was its ability to get stronger as the hitbox stayed out longer. Because of sonic's speed I imagine that Sonic players more than likey prematurely send out the hitbox rather than being too late. This would cater to them more imo, and since it would be at the end of the move, sonic could land and follow up with something pimp. :V

That I did not know, so is that what you meant then? To have the 3rd hitbox be the most effective?

Generally speaking yea. Weak initial hitbox, strong ending hitbox. Give it low BKB and high KBG so that at low percents it allows for follow ups and killing percents, it kills.

 

[yami_sora]

Alright I understand that now. My question now though it which direction is it gonna send your opponent? Up or out?

 

[iSpiN]

Where did that topic come into play? Why would we want it to go up?

 

[yami_sora]

By you when you asked what should be changed about the nair. =p

EDIT: No that's my point exactly, we DON'T want it to go up at all. But don't most sex kicks?

 

[iSpiN]

But why up?

 

[yami_sora]

No no, we don't want it to go up. That was my point.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Neko might actually be onto something there. Flip Blank's idea of making the first a killer and the later 2 combo moves.

With the first hitbox as a weak hitbox, comboing with it would be easier and more precise, and killing with it would be easy as well. Neither feels like a sacrifice for the other.

Theorycrafting of course, but it COULD work. It's just a matter of if we want to leave it how it is and buff it or re-work the move.


Not upwards knockback, iSpiN. Just a reverse-sex kick. Yami just misunderstood what Neko meant by "Doc Mario Sex Kick"

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah, after he explained it to me I saw the point, but none of us want it to go up.

 

[iSpiN]

He was thinking of Weegee, but I would have to think about that Nair idea a little more...