ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Bair to headbutt to punch? WTF?
-
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Kinzer
Mammy
That wasn't even directed at you~! >_<
You haven't been around/posting enough for me to develop a solid opinion of your e-personality. That's not to say it's a bad thing; just it'd be easier for me to know what kind of a person you were if you contributed a bit more. Not that it can really be helped though, this board has been dead as of late, so there aren't too many opportunities to contribute unless you go to tournaments or feel like posting frame data. From what I see though, you deliver some very well-done textures.
Meh, it probably doesn't help that people have gotten lives in the past two years; I'm sure if anybody was around pre-2009 they could attest for me how active (and somewhat spammy) this board was. Even if a lot of the people now didn't attend tournaments then, it was a nice social hub that gave the tourney-goers the information they needed. Tenki is the God-father of Sawnik.
I'll still be around as long as the Vegassmash scene doesn't die. If anybody wants to talk to me about Sonic-specific junk, there's no problem with that. Until I see more participation though I'm just going to hang back; only recently have my contributions received
Some of this ish really needs updating though lol, like Wario X_x. God I hate how that MU is played but I am 90% confident that it's the only way to win, and 90% that Wario is a winnable matchup if you're willing to go to the lengths. I also tend to disagree with the majority and for the moment I am confident that Lucario isn't as bad as a matchup as some like to say it is. I truly believe a lot of it has to do with using the proper playstyle, going in headfirst will only hurt in some cases, but at other times it's encouraged to keep the opponent on constant assault. Not to mention that sometimes you have to switch playstyles midmatch to keep the opponent guessing and few people tend to do everything.
Not without a good reason though, there is so much to Sonic it's difficult to be 100% all the time. Sometime in the future I hope to release a video guide on how to play "Unleashed" Sonic; which is a term I've coined to pertain to Sonic played as if he was Tool-Assisted. With enough practice I've seen that it is emulatable to some extent and can be done. I'll be going over every single detail about what Sonic has to offer, and how that affects him in some matchups, and against the cast as a whole. First things first though, I need to get my microphone working. :/
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Recovering Low with sheik is poor. SHe is better off at stage leve and higher.
At low level she is much more limited.
Chain isnt very long, Up B is telegraphed.
She can transform into Zelda but we all know how terrible Zelda's Up B is when recovering from below the stage. Even then it places her in a vulnerable position.
Sweetspot Fsmash (cannot be DI'ed away from)
Ftilt~Usmash
Nair (higher percents).
Not many killing options but they are fast and very safe (except Fsmash).
You can chain jacket an Fsmash but that is difficult to do consistently.
Kinzer
Mammy
I'm feeling quite chipper, so maybe I can get the ball rollin'. After all, we haven't had anything new since '09, and it's already March. Plus I believe it's outdated enough to warrant a new, revised, and updated matchup write-up:
Wario:
Introduction: Quite the dastardly opponent Wario is.
Behaviour: Wario is a very airborne opponent. For as obese as he looks, he gets around. He is heavy, powerful, and nimble. This becomes very problematic for Sonic when you want him to die, let alone land a hit on him. You will find it very difficult and time-consuming to get a kill on Wario; problem is he'll outlive you unless something goes seriously wrong on his part. While it is encouraged to play defensively and also being aware of his attacks that can kill very easily; you need to make it unsafe for him to do anything to abuse the opportunity.
Commonly Used Moves: {Honestly I hate having to do this. People shouldn't be focusing on one thing even if it is something major that makes a character as good as they are, or is highly abusable against Sonic in this particular MU. This either needs to be reworked or scrapped all-together.}
As mentioned earlier, the main thing about this matchup is the Wario Waft. Once the match starts Wario has the potential to kill at the ~80-110% range every minute. If not that You'll find yourself being killed at ~120+% by an Uair, and lastly by a FSmash at ~130+%. It is best to avoid situations that put yourself at high risk and always have a way of retreating into a safe(r) position, or inside your shield; though that's easier said than done.
How to Win: Get used to long and grueling matches that come down to the last couple of seconds. Under normal circumstances you will not be winning this matchup by always trying to play defensively or offensively 100% of the time. Find the balance that works out, but pour a little bit more focus onto the defensive playstyle. If your aim is to win, you will have to wait for opportunities to come to you; you can't exactly make them happen. Although take that last statement with a pinch of salt, as you will need to make the opponent guess what you will do next and apply a little bit of pressure; any kind will work, just have them to commit to something. Anything but this will only make your lose quick and painful. There is nothing Sonic can really abuse about this matchup, so just play it like you would take a reaction test; or a better example would be the same way you would act as the proactive but flexible partner in a relationship.
Recommended stages: Avoid the smaller stages. Wario will be killing you earlier than he usually would, and he will still live more or less to the same percentage you'd kill him on a medium/big sized stage not because of his weight, but because of his mobility. You need time to be able to use Sonic's momentum cancel and be given some time to apply Directional Influence downwards in case you get smacked by his Uair. If it is a legal counterpick in your area, ban Brinstar. Other than that feel comfortable to go wherever else you wish.
{This segment needs work too. Not that the problem lies in the format, but in the region that applies to the reader. Vegassmash has a really conservative stagelist as of late, and that really hinders my opinion on what stages you could go to that can either make or break the matchup. As mentioned earlier, Brinstar is pretty much the only thing I worry about, I don't even care about Rainbow Cruise because I can just run away to make time or hopefully stall out the clock. There must be another way to accommodate for regional differences, but I can't think of any at this moment.}
Matchup verdict: 40:60 in favor of Wario. Don't take big risks but don't play it 100% safe either or you're 100% guaranteed to lose. Always have some kind of fully charged MP3 player, you'll need something to hold you back from the temptations that makes Sonic ultimately lose.God Sonic speed.
Wario:
Introduction: Quite the dastardly opponent Wario is.
Behaviour: Wario is a very airborne opponent. For as obese as he looks, he gets around. He is heavy, powerful, and nimble. This becomes very problematic for Sonic when you want him to die, let alone land a hit on him. You will find it very difficult and time-consuming to get a kill on Wario; problem is he'll outlive you unless something goes seriously wrong on his part. While it is encouraged to play defensively and also being aware of his attacks that can kill very easily; you need to make it unsafe for him to do anything to abuse the opportunity.
Commonly Used Moves: {Honestly I hate having to do this. People shouldn't be focusing on one thing even if it is something major that makes a character as good as they are, or is highly abusable against Sonic in this particular MU. This either needs to be reworked or scrapped all-together.}
As mentioned earlier, the main thing about this matchup is the Wario Waft. Once the match starts Wario has the potential to kill at the ~80-110% range every minute. If not that You'll find yourself being killed at ~120+% by an Uair, and lastly by a FSmash at ~130+%. It is best to avoid situations that put yourself at high risk and always have a way of retreating into a safe(r) position, or inside your shield; though that's easier said than done.
How to Win: Get used to long and grueling matches that come down to the last couple of seconds. Under normal circumstances you will not be winning this matchup by always trying to play defensively or offensively 100% of the time. Find the balance that works out, but pour a little bit more focus onto the defensive playstyle. If your aim is to win, you will have to wait for opportunities to come to you; you can't exactly make them happen. Although take that last statement with a pinch of salt, as you will need to make the opponent guess what you will do next and apply a little bit of pressure; any kind will work, just have them to commit to something. Anything but this will only make your lose quick and painful. There is nothing Sonic can really abuse about this matchup, so just play it like you would take a reaction test; or a better example would be the same way you would act as the proactive but flexible partner in a relationship.
Recommended stages: Avoid the smaller stages. Wario will be killing you earlier than he usually would, and he will still live more or less to the same percentage you'd kill him on a medium/big sized stage not because of his weight, but because of his mobility. You need time to be able to use Sonic's momentum cancel and be given some time to apply Directional Influence downwards in case you get smacked by his Uair. If it is a legal counterpick in your area, ban Brinstar. Other than that feel comfortable to go wherever else you wish.
{This segment needs work too. Not that the problem lies in the format, but in the region that applies to the reader. Vegassmash has a really conservative stagelist as of late, and that really hinders my opinion on what stages you could go to that can either make or break the matchup. As mentioned earlier, Brinstar is pretty much the only thing I worry about, I don't even care about Rainbow Cruise because I can just run away to make time or hopefully stall out the clock. There must be another way to accommodate for regional differences, but I can't think of any at this moment.}
Matchup verdict: 40:60 in favor of Wario. Don't take big risks but don't play it 100% safe either or you're 100% guaranteed to lose. Always have some kind of fully charged MP3 player, you'll need something to hold you back from the temptations that makes Sonic ultimately lose.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
I agree with this. Wario is...uuugh. Like really, it sucks that he can spam one move and rack up damage. (this could be avoided, dont get me wrong, but its still an annoying move.) Nair is also a pain...eh, almost everything wario has is a pain, except dtilt. ;p
Chis
Finally a legend
Good stuff Kinzer, I'll add that asap.
wowoduend
Smash Journeyman
Wario is annoying. He's bite is the most annoying attack. That or everything about him is annoying.
GoW on the Wii? Hell yeah
GoW on the Wii? Hell yeah
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
IC Matchup summary:
Don't get grabbed.
We done now? >;-y
Don't get grabbed.
We done now? >;-y
Meru.
I like spicy food
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Chis
Finally a legend
Er, let's move onto Snake.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Sonic vs any heavy character always has this common trait of being dependant on how easily sonic can get in and juggle them, as most always those characters have bad options from below. Sonic can do this to snake all day in theory, as most options coming down, while powerful and can throw other characters off (like B reversing grenades to shift momentum) don't really do much usually against fast characters. The key here, is Snakes ability to keep those situations to a minimum, and to make it worse, punish Sonic for a mistake for retaded amounts of damage.
Grenade cooking is a common defensive strat to prevent and limit many forms of retalitation, but some characters can still pressure him with proper spacing, like Metaknights Dairs. As I've stated Before, the small hitbox of Sonic's spins have some use in those situations, as he can spin attack special him, and jump cancel out, never coming in contact with the nade. The weakness of cooking often is that the Snake player's shield is at risk to shield poking, and ASC exposes that weakness, so that even if the ASC doesn't actually connect, the shield is weakened to the point where Snake will either take the explosion as damage, or he is force to dodge, or he is forced to not use that tactic and let teh shield regenerate for a time.
F tilt is the primary punisher for snake, and the smart ones mix this with jabs and grabs to prevent predicatbility, As ftilts alone ( the full two hits) are punishable via Dash Attack, and in sometimes tilts. Jabs are more difficult to deal with and threaten to shut down sonic's spin dash game almost entirely. Snakes goal should be to get sonic offstage, where he can get the most damage quickly, as IMO Snake is one of the few characters that can punish most all of sonic's recovery options with tilts, pivot grabs, jabs and grenades.
On the other hand, the same goes for Sonic. One of the reasons this matchup isn't utter **** is because of Sonic's strengths to punish offstage and keep them there long enough for gimp attemps, and at the very least if snake has to blow himself up to recover, nets him lots of damage as well. And once again, Sonic's unique movement options can limit the safeness of Snake's moves like Dash attack, ftilt, granade spamming (due to glide toss and approachablity dring the lag of the nade toss). but the damage output difference remains blatently obvious, and when you add the advantages of stages like battlefield, the advantage becomes more of an issure when you take into account also the difference in reliable kill setups. Sonic's most reliable kill set up is Spin Dash > Bair, but that won't kill snake until around 130%. the next reliable option isn't until around 250% (upthrow), which means you have to seriously outmanuver the snake to get him offstage and or in the air to get him other ways. Snake can simply use his tilts, usually uptilt, off of moves like down throw about 30% earlier than Sonic's first option, and grenades can kill from an even safer position. Jab combo works as well againt spin dash spammers that don't cancel eonugh to condition the snake player first.
Due to the easier kill setups, and the more damaging options from mistakes, but because Sonic's movements still have an impact on thier effectiveness, the matchup IMO is obviously in snakes favor, 60-40.
You are to ban stages like battlefield, and Halberd, that restrict your movement and/ or give multple platforms to spread his field control with his specials and D smashes. You want to play on stages like Final Destination and Yoshi's Island, stages that maximize your ability to pick him apart with your speed and allow you more room to escape bad situations. YI's iSDR glitch is annoying for snake because it makes sonic impervious to all explosive-based moves, and gives sonic some room to breathe in that sence. bear in mind Snake can clash with it.
Trick on YI: Grab a grenade, then run to the side and iSDR before it explodes. Sonic in essence becomes a spindashing timebomb, since the explosion wont damage him while in iSDR. Has some potential in teams IMO...
Grenade cooking is a common defensive strat to prevent and limit many forms of retalitation, but some characters can still pressure him with proper spacing, like Metaknights Dairs. As I've stated Before, the small hitbox of Sonic's spins have some use in those situations, as he can spin attack special him, and jump cancel out, never coming in contact with the nade. The weakness of cooking often is that the Snake player's shield is at risk to shield poking, and ASC exposes that weakness, so that even if the ASC doesn't actually connect, the shield is weakened to the point where Snake will either take the explosion as damage, or he is force to dodge, or he is forced to not use that tactic and let teh shield regenerate for a time.
F tilt is the primary punisher for snake, and the smart ones mix this with jabs and grabs to prevent predicatbility, As ftilts alone ( the full two hits) are punishable via Dash Attack, and in sometimes tilts. Jabs are more difficult to deal with and threaten to shut down sonic's spin dash game almost entirely. Snakes goal should be to get sonic offstage, where he can get the most damage quickly, as IMO Snake is one of the few characters that can punish most all of sonic's recovery options with tilts, pivot grabs, jabs and grenades.
On the other hand, the same goes for Sonic. One of the reasons this matchup isn't utter **** is because of Sonic's strengths to punish offstage and keep them there long enough for gimp attemps, and at the very least if snake has to blow himself up to recover, nets him lots of damage as well. And once again, Sonic's unique movement options can limit the safeness of Snake's moves like Dash attack, ftilt, granade spamming (due to glide toss and approachablity dring the lag of the nade toss). but the damage output difference remains blatently obvious, and when you add the advantages of stages like battlefield, the advantage becomes more of an issure when you take into account also the difference in reliable kill setups. Sonic's most reliable kill set up is Spin Dash > Bair, but that won't kill snake until around 130%. the next reliable option isn't until around 250% (upthrow), which means you have to seriously outmanuver the snake to get him offstage and or in the air to get him other ways. Snake can simply use his tilts, usually uptilt, off of moves like down throw about 30% earlier than Sonic's first option, and grenades can kill from an even safer position. Jab combo works as well againt spin dash spammers that don't cancel eonugh to condition the snake player first.
Due to the easier kill setups, and the more damaging options from mistakes, but because Sonic's movements still have an impact on thier effectiveness, the matchup IMO is obviously in snakes favor, 60-40.
You are to ban stages like battlefield, and Halberd, that restrict your movement and/ or give multple platforms to spread his field control with his specials and D smashes. You want to play on stages like Final Destination and Yoshi's Island, stages that maximize your ability to pick him apart with your speed and allow you more room to escape bad situations. YI's iSDR glitch is annoying for snake because it makes sonic impervious to all explosive-based moves, and gives sonic some room to breathe in that sence. bear in mind Snake can clash with it.
Trick on YI: Grab a grenade, then run to the side and iSDR before it explodes. Sonic in essence becomes a spindashing timebomb, since the explosion wont damage him while in iSDR. Has some potential in teams IMO...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
good analysis, but a few corrections Id like to make.
snake dies from spindash to bair from the middle of the stage around 150-160
and snake dies to up throw around 225. which can go as low as 200-205 if they dont DI it correctly and the throw is fresh.
also an underused kill method that basically saves sonic from utter humiliation in this matchup:
when you get him in a position that he has to fall on top of you, charging down smash is a god send.
it beats his back air when he tries to fast fall that on you
it trades with his up air only on very rare occasions, usually it just beats it out right.
it sends snake away full force even if he has a nade in hand. (the nade will still hit you tho)
and it beats airdodge into the ground tho.
So with the right setup (forward throw is very good for this) sonic can be pulling off a successful kill move at 120 or so.
snake dies from spindash to bair from the middle of the stage around 150-160
and snake dies to up throw around 225. which can go as low as 200-205 if they dont DI it correctly and the throw is fresh.
also an underused kill method that basically saves sonic from utter humiliation in this matchup:
when you get him in a position that he has to fall on top of you, charging down smash is a god send.
it beats his back air when he tries to fast fall that on you
it trades with his up air only on very rare occasions, usually it just beats it out right.
it sends snake away full force even if he has a nade in hand. (the nade will still hit you tho)
and it beats airdodge into the ground tho.
So with the right setup (forward throw is very good for this) sonic can be pulling off a successful kill move at 120 or so.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
pretty much what kojin and kid said...they say ftilt is safe on block...is it really? I find myself sometimes getting in some hits afterwards. are they doinitwrong? 
KID, you're saying if they are falling in the range of sonic's first dash in dsmash, or falling on top of sonic? Cause he could just as easily footstool. (or can he? I just did this alot in dittos when another sonic tried to catch me with that.)
KID, you're saying if they are falling in the range of sonic's first dash in dsmash, or falling on top of sonic? Cause he could just as easily footstool. (or can he? I just did this alot in dittos when another sonic tried to catch me with that.)
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
speed, I can pretty honestly say that you and me are probably the ONLY ones that do that...
and if they are falling pretty much anywhere in the down smash range you can do it.
lol I think I stole that move from wes.
and if they are falling pretty much anywhere in the down smash range you can do it.
lol I think I stole that move from wes.
JayBee
Smash Champion
thanks for the damge adjustments KID. tbh I forgot about Dsmash, even tho I use it often to punish snakes when they come down. that is one situation they can't do anything about, other than Up B (if they havent used that) or B reversing grenades. The matchup could be 45-55 on a sonic's best day, if they keep snakes opportunities to a minimum. I sometimes will get caught in stupid **** due to the players good reading on tech chases and edgegaurding, but for the most part, this matchup isn't too bad to understand with practice. It also helps to pick up the character for a while, speed.
Miamisportsfan45
Smash Lord
I'm a very talented and skilled Yoshi main, so if you'd like any help with Yoshi matchups I'd gladly help. I'm considering Sonic as a 2nd main considering I've always been very fond of Sonic.
Browny
Smash Hater
yeah that charged dsmash on landing is pretty good lol. Ive had it not even blow up nades sometimes. just hit his foot
JayBee
Smash Champion
hope the info helps then. he is fun to play tho.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
That statement was not only not biased, but it was also incredibly informative and also helped us out alot in terms of learning how to combat this character.
Thanks A Lot!
I rate that post 5 stars.
Thanks A Lot!
I rate that post 5 stars.
AHL
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2008
- Messages
- 26
Kinzer
Mammy
I really hate being the one to criticize, but if you're going to pull a "random" ratio, you should at least be able to provide some proof as to why you think it is as such...
Otherwise I hope you don't mind you'd be about the only person with that opinion and anySonicbody you preach that too will probably vehemently disagree with you, and in my opinion anybody who agrees with you probably has no idea what they're talking about anyway. :l
I wish I had more to say, but the only person who played a decent Snake in Vegas is gone... I wouldn't know where he went, along with 85% of the Vegassmash community... This place is dead now. :/
Otherwise I hope you don't mind you'd be about the only person with that opinion and any
I wish I had more to say, but the only person who played a decent Snake in Vegas is gone... I wouldn't know where he went, along with 85% of the Vegassmash community... This place is dead now. :/
Kinzer
Mammy
Take your time; it's a forum. No rush.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
Sonic vs Snake is not horrible. But not good either since we can't kill this guy as easily as he can kill us. I usually abuse asc vs this guy. Not sure if thats right or not but it works surprisingly well for me. I've only fought two really good Snake's and it was Takeover and Candy. So i'm only alright in the match up. I do pretty well vs them. Sometimes winning sometimes losing w/e.
I cant put the ratio in specifically on what i think it should be. But its defiantly in Snake's favor.
Also is the Homing attack bair on Snake's cypher safe to bring up in this discussion?
I cant put the ratio in specifically on what i think it should be. But its defiantly in Snake's favor.
Also is the Homing attack bair on Snake's cypher safe to bring up in this discussion?
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
I find homing attack to bair to be a safe option as long as you aren't at a high %. Then you might not wanna risk him reading you going for a homing attack>bair. It depends on how skilled the snake is at recovery. But generally it seems like a good edge guarding tactic to me.
Snake is a tough matchup IMO. He outclasses Sonic in many areas, but he also has some important weaknesses that keep this from being like a 70:30
I'll start with his groundgame(including grabs). Snake has one of the best, if not the best ground game in brawl. He's got his f tilt with ridiculous range, speed, ko power (kinda), and damage. He has his u tilt for killing, and it's a very disjointed hitbox, meaning it'll clash with pretty much all our moves (unless Sonic uses a really well spaced bair). Dtilt is pretty good too, since it does good damage and can ko (with decent reach). All in All, he's got a wall of tilts that are all disjointed, making it very hard for Sonic to get in. His smashes are pretty good too. His u smash sends a projectile into the air that will not harm snake, but you should be able to DI the ground hit from the launcher. Avoiding the mortar isn't too hard, but don't let snake mindgame you into an uair, since it does kill pretty well. Fsmash is basically for punishing big mistakes, so you shouldn't have to worry about it much. His dsmash plants a mine which adds to his control game. You can drop a spring on it to get rid of it, but don't forget about it and run into it.
In addition to this, he's got a good grabgame. His grab is pretty fast, and his throws either put you offstage/bad positions, or they set you up for followups (f throw, b throw, and d throw). His pummel is pretty good too, so if he ever needs to refresh moves for knockback negation (which won't be many times), he can pummel you a bit. So all in all, Snake is VERY solid on the ground. He has answers to your spindashes, tilts, etc. It's very difficult for Sonic to win against a snake that can stay on the ground, but that's where his weakness comes in.
As good as snake's groundgame is, his air game is a bit lacking. Snake falls moderately fast, and doesn't have the best air speed. His aerials are quick on startup, and good on damage(nair and dair can be sdi'd though), but that all have punishable landing lag. When you put all this together, snake is pretty vulnerable in midair. His air speed is too slow to out manuever you, and he has no quick, lagless aerial to cover his landings. What does this mean? Take advantage of EVERY time you get snake into the air. Once you do get him in it, try to keep the pressure up. Try to bait him into falling into dsmashes, or run next to his landing point and wait in your shield, so you can grab, etc. Get him into the air.
Snake's specials are pretty unique as well. His nades allow him to camp (forcing us to approach), and are a semi counter. Snake can pull a nade and basically trade hits with you (VERY bad for us), or he can shielddrop it on the ground to go into a grab, or stop a spindash (but this can be avoided if you hit his shield with the SDJ, or jump as soon as the roll makes contact. His nades also let him B-reverse in midair to completely change his momentum into the opposite direction. Obviously, this makes punishing his landings harder, but b reversal is limited to how far his recovery lets him back on stage. If he lands in the middle, he can try to avoid you (but Sonic is so fast, you still might be able to punish if you're fast enough). If he doesn't quite make it, you know he's not going to b reverse off a ledge, so take advantage of that and prepare. Nades in summary are pretty versatile.
I don't see his nikita used much, so I don't have much to say on it, though it should be straightforward to avoid.
His up-b gives him a great recovery, but he is vulnerable when using it. Use this also to your advantage when you get snake offstage and attempt to edgegaurd.
Down B is the C4. It gives HIM stage control, and additional pressure when you go offstage. All I have to say is keep track of it and don't land on it.
As far as killing goes, snake will be probably living past 150% each stock, while you'll die at about 110% from an utilt. No doubt Sonic is outclassed here. However, like I've said, Snake has holes in his defence, like his airgame, so capitalize on that.
IDK about specific stages to take him to, so I need some input on that. However, if you want a ratio, I'd say 60 : 40 Snake's favor. Sonic cleary has to outplay him to get past his range and weight. It's still a doable matchup though.
I'll start with his groundgame(including grabs). Snake has one of the best, if not the best ground game in brawl. He's got his f tilt with ridiculous range, speed, ko power (kinda), and damage. He has his u tilt for killing, and it's a very disjointed hitbox, meaning it'll clash with pretty much all our moves (unless Sonic uses a really well spaced bair). Dtilt is pretty good too, since it does good damage and can ko (with decent reach). All in All, he's got a wall of tilts that are all disjointed, making it very hard for Sonic to get in. His smashes are pretty good too. His u smash sends a projectile into the air that will not harm snake, but you should be able to DI the ground hit from the launcher. Avoiding the mortar isn't too hard, but don't let snake mindgame you into an uair, since it does kill pretty well. Fsmash is basically for punishing big mistakes, so you shouldn't have to worry about it much. His dsmash plants a mine which adds to his control game. You can drop a spring on it to get rid of it, but don't forget about it and run into it.
In addition to this, he's got a good grabgame. His grab is pretty fast, and his throws either put you offstage/bad positions, or they set you up for followups (f throw, b throw, and d throw). His pummel is pretty good too, so if he ever needs to refresh moves for knockback negation (which won't be many times), he can pummel you a bit. So all in all, Snake is VERY solid on the ground. He has answers to your spindashes, tilts, etc. It's very difficult for Sonic to win against a snake that can stay on the ground, but that's where his weakness comes in.
As good as snake's groundgame is, his air game is a bit lacking. Snake falls moderately fast, and doesn't have the best air speed. His aerials are quick on startup, and good on damage(nair and dair can be sdi'd though), but that all have punishable landing lag. When you put all this together, snake is pretty vulnerable in midair. His air speed is too slow to out manuever you, and he has no quick, lagless aerial to cover his landings. What does this mean? Take advantage of EVERY time you get snake into the air. Once you do get him in it, try to keep the pressure up. Try to bait him into falling into dsmashes, or run next to his landing point and wait in your shield, so you can grab, etc. Get him into the air.
Snake's specials are pretty unique as well. His nades allow him to camp (forcing us to approach), and are a semi counter. Snake can pull a nade and basically trade hits with you (VERY bad for us), or he can shielddrop it on the ground to go into a grab, or stop a spindash (but this can be avoided if you hit his shield with the SDJ, or jump as soon as the roll makes contact. His nades also let him B-reverse in midair to completely change his momentum into the opposite direction. Obviously, this makes punishing his landings harder, but b reversal is limited to how far his recovery lets him back on stage. If he lands in the middle, he can try to avoid you (but Sonic is so fast, you still might be able to punish if you're fast enough). If he doesn't quite make it, you know he's not going to b reverse off a ledge, so take advantage of that and prepare. Nades in summary are pretty versatile.
I don't see his nikita used much, so I don't have much to say on it, though it should be straightforward to avoid.
His up-b gives him a great recovery, but he is vulnerable when using it. Use this also to your advantage when you get snake offstage and attempt to edgegaurd.
Down B is the C4. It gives HIM stage control, and additional pressure when you go offstage. All I have to say is keep track of it and don't land on it.
As far as killing goes, snake will be probably living past 150% each stock, while you'll die at about 110% from an utilt. No doubt Sonic is outclassed here. However, like I've said, Snake has holes in his defence, like his airgame, so capitalize on that.
IDK about specific stages to take him to, so I need some input on that. However, if you want a ratio, I'd say 60 : 40 Snake's favor. Sonic cleary has to outplay him to get past his range and weight. It's still a doable matchup though.
Snake may be more vulnerable in the air by comparison to his ground game, but he still has tools to escape a juggle. He can use onstage Cypher to tank fair, uair and late nair, which can be trouble. Spacing your aerials in important, you don't want to have to trade with any of snake's aerials, they kill much earlier than sonic's.
Also, just like with charging Dsmash, I believe footstools will outrange first hit uair and fair (sonic's) and give him a bit more airtime when you think he is out of options. Its very important to fast fall your aerials so that you can still beat him to the ground if he slips by you.
As far as dealing with grenades, I prefer to dash into shield at thrown grenades to stop them close to snake if possible. If you can turn his explosives against him, you can force him to shield, spotdodge or jump/ get hit and risk a juggle. Try the keep the timers for each grenade in mind so you can recognize when he has made an error.
Mines probably aren't very useful against Sonic. His mobility allow can negate and reverse the control provided by them. They are dangerous on platforms, but more easily dispatched than C4 and grenades. They also provide a safer place for Snake to land. With sonic's aerial acceleration, you don't want to risk losing mix up options for your landing by hastily using Spring just for a landmine. If you haven't already gone helpless from spring and you have option of landing on a mine, you can shield cancel Side B and you will powershield the mine just like Snake does with grenades. This is also a nice way to get rid of mines on platforms where you might not have space to shield dash. Don't try it with ASC though, the hit-box will set off the mine before you land and shield.
Its probably a good idea to just get rid of any mines, Snake will need a safe place to land more than you will.
C4 is good for stage control since its nearly impossible to turn it against snake like mines and grenades, its trouble on platforms and walls and can be placed on the edges (troubling since sonics specials dont sweetspot) , even though thats kind of risky. Obviously, it saves him when recovering low now and then. Don't forget all the ways you can deal with C4 recovery, footstooling, forcing him to sticky you instead etc.
Mortars are overpowered by just about everything, but you can still get trapped by them. Do any of sonic's grabs outprioritize the mortar (if you grab him as its falling on you). I'm guessing Uthrow and maybe bthrow for avoidance.
Even with Snake's damaging moves and and kill power, its very possible to be closer to death and have a percent lead, so don't get greedy and get hit by something ridiculously strong. Just try to shove him offstage, get into an advantaged position and juggle until he presents a bigger opening.
Also, just like with charging Dsmash, I believe footstools will outrange first hit uair and fair (sonic's) and give him a bit more airtime when you think he is out of options. Its very important to fast fall your aerials so that you can still beat him to the ground if he slips by you.
As far as dealing with grenades, I prefer to dash into shield at thrown grenades to stop them close to snake if possible. If you can turn his explosives against him, you can force him to shield, spotdodge or jump/ get hit and risk a juggle. Try the keep the timers for each grenade in mind so you can recognize when he has made an error.
Mines probably aren't very useful against Sonic. His mobility allow can negate and reverse the control provided by them. They are dangerous on platforms, but more easily dispatched than C4 and grenades. They also provide a safer place for Snake to land. With sonic's aerial acceleration, you don't want to risk losing mix up options for your landing by hastily using Spring just for a landmine. If you haven't already gone helpless from spring and you have option of landing on a mine, you can shield cancel Side B and you will powershield the mine just like Snake does with grenades. This is also a nice way to get rid of mines on platforms where you might not have space to shield dash. Don't try it with ASC though, the hit-box will set off the mine before you land and shield.
Its probably a good idea to just get rid of any mines, Snake will need a safe place to land more than you will.
C4 is good for stage control since its nearly impossible to turn it against snake like mines and grenades, its trouble on platforms and walls and can be placed on the edges (troubling since sonics specials dont sweetspot) , even though thats kind of risky. Obviously, it saves him when recovering low now and then. Don't forget all the ways you can deal with C4 recovery, footstooling, forcing him to sticky you instead etc.
Mortars are overpowered by just about everything, but you can still get trapped by them. Do any of sonic's grabs outprioritize the mortar (if you grab him as its falling on you). I'm guessing Uthrow and maybe bthrow for avoidance.
Even with Snake's damaging moves and and kill power, its very possible to be closer to death and have a percent lead, so don't get greedy and get hit by something ridiculously strong. Just try to shove him offstage, get into an advantaged position and juggle until he presents a bigger opening.
Kinzer
Mammy
I wouldn't say "good"; but they have their limited uses...
Very rarely is an aerial not auto-canceled, but once again I'm not totally disagreeing... However I find it strange how it took you quite a while to mention Breversals; every little detail about Snake getting back onto the ground helps. I'm pretty sure that a couple will be thrown in, as well as the occasional Bair (or just simply airdodge into the ground). That comes down to reading the other opponent though, so I'll leave that to be decided mid-match.
Specials are a double-edged sword if you ask me. Grenades have so many uses, and so many ways to be backfired that it would take me a whole essay or two to cover all of them. Trying to cover the common ones, obviously Grenades will be cooked; and spaced to have people hit them while Snake is in his shield. Even if both are hit by the Grenade, more often than not Snake's opponent takes much more casualties from the blast than Snake himself does; since we're talking about Sonic that holds oh so ever true... Best case scenario is the Snake slips up and gets hit by his own Grenade and his opponent can follow up. Still, I would not rely on that; you will have to make opportunities come to you by being smart about when to attack (and how to attack) and when not to...
That's were my knowledge on Grenade control runs out. Could somebody tell me how exactly is it that even if you do manage to get a hold of a Grenade that Snake can just stop it mid-air if you try to throw it at him normally or glide-toss it...? Of course if there's no other explanation other than Brawl's ******** design, I can dig (sort of)...
Oh blah, let me not forgot to mention always have the higher port Vs. Snake. It seems to be common knowledge; but in case anybody is reading this and isn't aware.
Also I have yet another question. Has anybody else had any success in Fairing through a Nikita? I know BSP Already mentioned that it will hardly be used but I like to be prepared for anything; and I'm not sure if it was just some dumb luck, good spacing, or some kind of priority rule I'm forgetting (or I might not even remember it actually happening and I'm just crazy), but this also puzzles me...
To be honest, I find the C4 limited in terms of dealing damage. It's just too obvious when he's dropping one and that "NOW!" SFX that there shouldn't be any excuse for getting hit by it unless you were already committed into an attack (in which case you got greedy and is your own fault), or the rare case where you might have died some other way if not being outright killed by the C4. Take for example recovery from below. Sonic's Spring only goes up so high and the ledge will usually not come to save you (unless you're on one of those stages), so you would either get killed by the C4 or you could airdodge through the ledge and die by falling short. TL;DR I don't see C4 being used unless Snake needs a desperate recovery option.
Stages to NOT counterpick Snake are Brinstar and Halberd... some other bad choices IMO are Frigate (kind of a low celing) and Lylat since the camouflage does sort of make it hard to keep track of things... truly it is. I was watching that one match were Trent was gonig up against Ally and some of his Grenades juggles had me frozen up; and I was just watching it! Just any other stage to me seems like it will only bring this matchup to neutral, but it already seems to come down to who is the better player. Other than 2 former two I mentioned to never go; and the ladder 2 which I wouldn't suggest but they aren't outright auto-lose (I think...), you're good to go anywhere else.
Of course Snake outclasses Sonic in the weight and killing department; but again nothing undoable.
I'm not so sure about that. Snake's Bair comes out so fast and hits so hard if you happen to leave yourself open/in-lag and he's in the air, I would rather just play it safe and not put myself into the situation where I have to fastfall unless I'm high up in the air or something.
Doesn't this only work on a non-fastfalled landing? I'm not even sure if it works then, I remember somewhere a while ago Susa said something about 2 frames of lag from landing, and how that isn't enough time to Powershield a landmine and the impression comes from Snake landing with a Grenade and how that has no landing lag (*******); but I'd either have to look at the frame data again or somebody else will have to confirm this for me/us.
This confuses me, do you mean to say it's better to leave the mines untouched...?
Correct; it's a matter of timing when outprioritizing the Mortar.Higher port and Grab-armor helps too.
Ah finally, some meaningful, non-theorycraft discussion. I'm sorry but ICs discussion was a joke compared to this. :/
Not sure which part you were responding to there, Kinzer. My point about fastfalling aerials means if you are juggling snake, fast falling aerials means that if he airdodges or jumps or shifts his momentum to avoid you, you still beat him to the ground for another chance to keep him in the air. As opposed to rising aerials, which can put you in a more dangerous position if he gets past you.
Yea, I remember reading SuSa's post on the Snake boards about landing on mines. A regular landing has 2-4 frames or landing lag I believe, so you get hit. Any special that can be shield cancelled upon landing, has 0 landing lag (though you can't do anything except shield). I don't think this applied to specials that can be cancelled by airdodging like Water gun and Diddy's popgun, but ASC, Side B charge and Grenades have 0 landing lag. The hitbox of a mine comes out on frame 2 which is the same frame that shields come out. At the end I said it might be best to use this method or shield dashing to destroy mines, as snake can make better use of them than you can.
Its easy to confirm, just go to training mode with sonic and snake, place a mine, Side B cancel your landing on it.
The trick you mentioned is called Grenade Stripping. If snake throws 1 grenade, then pulls another, when he shielddrops the 2nd grenade, the first one will stop and fall (even if it was already falling, it will stop again and fall again) no matter where it is. This is very important to know, because Snakes will try to bait you into action by tossing uncooked grenades and leaving you unable to throw them back.
Yea, I remember reading SuSa's post on the Snake boards about landing on mines. A regular landing has 2-4 frames or landing lag I believe, so you get hit. Any special that can be shield cancelled upon landing, has 0 landing lag (though you can't do anything except shield). I don't think this applied to specials that can be cancelled by airdodging like Water gun and Diddy's popgun, but ASC, Side B charge and Grenades have 0 landing lag. The hitbox of a mine comes out on frame 2 which is the same frame that shields come out. At the end I said it might be best to use this method or shield dashing to destroy mines, as snake can make better use of them than you can.
Its easy to confirm, just go to training mode with sonic and snake, place a mine, Side B cancel your landing on it.
The trick you mentioned is called Grenade Stripping. If snake throws 1 grenade, then pulls another, when he shielddrops the 2nd grenade, the first one will stop and fall (even if it was already falling, it will stop again and fall again) no matter where it is. This is very important to know, because Snakes will try to bait you into action by tossing uncooked grenades and leaving you unable to throw them back.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
One thing that I do think is important we discuss is the stages for Sonic to take Snake.
Smashville is BAD.
Halberd is BAD.
Battlefield is BAD.
Platforms are BAD.
Why are platforms bad?
The vertical size of the explosion BELOW the C4 can extend BELOW smashville.
Taking him to BF is terrible.
Yoshi's Island and Lylat cruise (in terms of neutrals).
Are the best stages.
At best, you can hope for FD.
FD being that there are NO platforms.
(if we presume the 5 neutrals are FD, BF, SV, YI and LC).
In terms of CP.
Rainbow Cruise is out.
Snake WILL ban it.
Obviously, you will ban Halberd.
In truth, the best thing you can do as a Sonic user is try to kill Snake as early as possible, since his weight only serves to his advantage as he accumulates damage.
If you can get him off the stage at a low percent, it becomes easier to
A. rack damage.
B. Actually successfully edgehog him.
Hell look at what happens with M2K and Ally, you can rack up tons of damage but Snake starts off at -100%.
Also, I believe Sonic can dash powershield through much of SNake's ground moves.
His specials are what will cause the issue since mentioned earlier, they are what off him stage control and indirect pressure.
I say you switch to DDD and give him the old D throw of doom!
Smashville is BAD.
Halberd is BAD.
Battlefield is BAD.
Platforms are BAD.
Why are platforms bad?
The vertical size of the explosion BELOW the C4 can extend BELOW smashville.
Taking him to BF is terrible.
Yoshi's Island and Lylat cruise (in terms of neutrals).
Are the best stages.
At best, you can hope for FD.
FD being that there are NO platforms.
(if we presume the 5 neutrals are FD, BF, SV, YI and LC).
In terms of CP.
Rainbow Cruise is out.
Snake WILL ban it.
Obviously, you will ban Halberd.
In truth, the best thing you can do as a Sonic user is try to kill Snake as early as possible, since his weight only serves to his advantage as he accumulates damage.
If you can get him off the stage at a low percent, it becomes easier to
A. rack damage.
B. Actually successfully edgehog him.
Hell look at what happens with M2K and Ally, you can rack up tons of damage but Snake starts off at -100%.
Also, I believe Sonic can dash powershield through much of SNake's ground moves.
His specials are what will cause the issue since mentioned earlier, they are what off him stage control and indirect pressure.
I say you switch to DDD and give him the old D throw of doom!
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
You can actually use this to your advantage with sonic.
If you know that the snake is going to do this, what you can do is pick up the nade and glide toss forward towards snake.
Normally if you did this you wouldnt throw it far enough in front of you for it not to hit you when it explodes.
But when he strips it, you can just fly at him at sonic speed, with no explosion to worry about it. Its makes for some really good pretty options since you can do any move out of it.
Trent
Smash Champion
You could also just throw it upwards as you glide toss, so there isn't any worry about explosions.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
theres still a decent chance of blowing up if you do that.
and Im pretty sure sonics forward glide toss goes farther.
and Im pretty sure sonics forward glide toss goes farther.
Well the thing about grenade stripping is. Its just a weird glitch that means "if snakes shields while holding a grenade, all of snakes grenades fall". So he has a frame 2 action of shielding that will make the grenade drop no matter what. Even if you are holding the grenade, it will make you drop it. If you buffer a glide toss, even if you don't get hit by the explosion, he is just in his shield with another grenade at his feet.
Basically it can really screw you up and give him a nice frame advantage to work with, all he has to do is shield, and then he can do whatever he wants while u blow yourself up or slide towards him without a hitbox.
Grenade stripping just leaves you with a cooked grenade right in your face and another slightly cooked grenade under his shield. Ofcourse its perfectly possible for him to screw up/ not expect you to run at him instead of glide toss.
I generally just try to throw it back with enough time to shield if/when it gets stopped in my face, or move away from him while throwing it.
The main problem is, if he doesn't panic and strip it right away, you don't have an option to attack him while holding his grenade. No matter what you try to do to get rid of it before it explodes, he can make it stop right in front of you. Its much harder to turn grenades against snake than bananas, turnips etc. against their owners.
Basically it can really screw you up and give him a nice frame advantage to work with, all he has to do is shield, and then he can do whatever he wants while u blow yourself up or slide towards him without a hitbox.
Grenade stripping just leaves you with a cooked grenade right in your face and another slightly cooked grenade under his shield. Ofcourse its perfectly possible for him to screw up/ not expect you to run at him instead of glide toss.
I generally just try to throw it back with enough time to shield if/when it gets stopped in my face, or move away from him while throwing it.
The main problem is, if he doesn't panic and strip it right away, you don't have an option to attack him while holding his grenade. No matter what you try to do to get rid of it before it explodes, he can make it stop right in front of you. Its much harder to turn grenades against snake than bananas, turnips etc. against their owners.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
wow wtf was that Smashboards
Joemama8
Smash Journeyman
have we talked about Gaymanwatch in a while. If not, id really like to have a chat about that little *******...