Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Bestiarius]

You said you would prefer if we came here, so here are my thoughts on Sonic vs. Squirtle:

First of all, discussing PT as three seperate characters does help keep discussion organized so you can take the most useful thoughts from discussion, it is slightly impractical because of fatigue. PT cannot afford to use only one character. With that said, though, it is only slightly impractical; it is probably the best way of going about it. Secondly, I don't play many Sonics, much less many good ones, so this is maybe not the most accurate view of the fight. However, I think I know the two characters well enough to at least comment on my impression of the matchup.

OK, now here are my thoughts:

I think Squirtle has a slight advantage. Sonic may be the fastest character in the game, but he is not the quickest. Squirtle's aerials come out faster and a few have sex kick properties. Plus, Squirtle's jab's and ftilt come out faster than Sonic's. That said, Sonic's down b and side b can become very annoying if the Squirtle player is stupid and gets careless thinking that this matchup is a cakewalk: it's not. Sonic is still a pretty quick character and, after all, he is the fastest character in the game. A good Squirtle player will never be sitting still, and I don't think a good Sonic should either. Forcing Squirtle to play as fast as possible would be my advice to Sonic players; a sort of hit and run should work well. Sonic would probably get off some good attacks while running the clock to make Squirtle get fatigued. Just be careful as I'm pretty sure Squirtle could get you caught in a good combo if you get careless, and don't forget most of his attacks do come out faster.

 

[Chis]

I'll be using this to redo the chart.

Edit: BTW, is it big disadvantage or soft counter? I can still change it.

How would fatigue effect his overall performance against Sonic, if say, the battle goes on a little.

 

[Kinzer]

OK, now here are my thoughts:

I think Squirtle has a slight advantage. Sonic may be the fastest character in the game, but he is not the quickest. HUH? Squirtle's aerials come out faster and a few have sex kick properties. Plus, Squirtle's jab's and ftilt come out faster than Sonic's. That said, Sonic's down b and side b can become very annoying if the Squirtle player is stupid and gets careless thinking that this matchup is a cakewalk: it's not. Sonic is still a pretty quick character and, after all, he is the fastest character in the game. A good Squirtle player will never be sitting still, and I don't think a good Sonic should either. Forcing Squirtle to play as fast as possible would be my advice to Sonic players; a sort of hit and run should work well. Sonic would probably get off some good attacks while running the clock to make Squirtle get fatigued. Just be careful as I'm pretty sure Squirtle could get you caught in a good combo if you get careless, and don't forget most of his attacks do come out faster.

The first sentence makes no sense, he's fast, but not the quickest? Isn't that the same thing?

And then I need to remind people Sonic has a Spring that will get him out of any sticky situation.

Finally just because his attacks come faster, doesn't mean the Sonic player can't space... all it means is it Sonic tries to fight squirtle in a clash fight, he's always going to lose. Bair/Dair/Fair/Dair all have sex-kick attributes too... Uair is just really disjointed.

Still kind of think it's even.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think Squirtle has a slight advantage. Sonic may be the fastest character in the game, but he is not the quickest. Squirtle's aerials come out faster and a few have sex kick properties. Plus, Squirtle's jab's and ftilt come out faster than Sonic's. That said, Sonic's down b and side b can become very annoying if the Squirtle player is stupid and gets careless thinking that this matchup is a cakewalk: it's not. Sonic is still a pretty quick character and, after all, he is the fastest character in the game. A good Squirtle player will never be sitting still, and I don't think a good Sonic should either. Forcing Squirtle to play as fast as possible would be my advice to Sonic players; a sort of hit and run should work well. Sonic would probably get off some good attacks while running the clock to make Squirtle get fatigued. Just be careful as I'm pretty sure Squirtle could get you caught in a good combo if you get careless, and don't forget most of his attacks do come out faster.

No such thing as comboes.
When it comes to aerial games Squirtle beats out Soni but on the ground, he can cause issues for Squirtle because of his ftilt which has so much range to it.
Bair and Uair can break most of Squirtle's aerials so approach from the side if you are squirtle and not from above (duh).

The thing is though that the fatique factor so badly hurts squirtle that Sonic can simply use a hit and run style. Or even better, abuse his baiting ability.
He can play really gay and simply hit and run and make it very **** difficult for Squirtle to fight ithout being fatigued.
At which point, yeah.

I would say its Sonic's advantage because of the fatigue factor. It just hurts him so badly.

 

[Chis]

lol SL your sig got my details wrong.

But on topic, what about my chart thingy?

 

[Kinzer]

I don't know Shadow, most PTs just play like Fatigue doesn't even exist, and even if we did we Squirtle tired, what's stopping them from just hitting Sonic with a good hit, and wather he dies or not just switch to Ivysaur for the kill?

It's a bonus, but not something to really consider.

Edit: Chis, the yellow text/boxes make it sort of difficult to see with the golden aura Sonic has., at least make sure nothing else is yellow if you're going to use that.

 

[Steeler]

when does sonic's spring come out?

 

[Kinzer]

I'm not entirely sure, but it's pretty hard to beat it out when you measure it down to the frame.

DJBrowny had some Frame data for Sonic, I'll edit this post once I find it and tell you just approximately how fast it might be.

Edit:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196148&highlight=Frame

Grr... DJ never DID get the frame data for the Spring, but I'll tell you now that unless you have a utilt/uair faster than 3 frames maybe, you aren't going to juggle Sonic for long if at all.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't know Shadow, most PTs just play like Fatigue doesn't even exist, and even if we did we Squirtle tired, what's stopping them from just hitting Sonic with a good hit, and wather he dies or not just switch to Ivysaur for the kill?

It's a bonus, but not something to really consider.

Edit: Chis, the yellow text/boxes make it sort of difficult to see with the golden aura Sonic has., at least make sure nothing else is yellow if you're going to use that.

Except that when he is fatigued, his killing power drops severely.
So moves that normally would kill you don't, considering Sonic's high speed and the fact that squirtle lacks a projectile to really force Sonic to come to him, it can be an issue.

Edit: Not entirely sure. I believe the spring comes out on frame 2 or 3 and Sonic leaves the spring a bt later like frame 6?
Can't test my wii is packed away.

 

[Kinzer]

... With that logic, I can't argue.

Does anybody else think that Sonic might have the advantage on Squirtle... yes, no?

If the matchup numbers get decided early, we can just focus on to moving to the actual stradigies the characters might use, and get straight to the matchup arrangements.

Though remember we're on Squirtle right now, so you will have to let the PT freedom to switch back to Squirtle if you get killed or something. Are there any Squirtle Specialists besides Steeler?

OH SHI-! I forgot I have to do the write-up for Olimar, BRB!

 

[ShadowLink84]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!

Love you kinzer you made me laugh while studying physics.

but yeah I think its the fatigue factor that is enough to push it into Sonic's favor.

 

[Kinzer]

...? What did I do?

Still, we need more Pokeymanz trainors to get up in here... I'll give it two days at max, if nothing else sparks out, I'm going to move this on forward to Ivysaur...

 

[The Derrit]

for the whole fatigue thing, generally its noted but you can't do much about it with squirtle most times. its hard to get a safe change unless you can get your opponent to high percent and dthrow if you're fatigued, so you do just play hit and run until you can get your opponent with an usmash or a dthrow. or at least that's what i do. it still racks damage but not as much, so at that point its not so much about killing as getting sonic away.

in general i think squirtle can get hits in better than sonic here but that's just me saying it, i'm not gonna put out a lot of why but it sounds like people generally agree with this as is.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I wish to play a PT.

 

[Chis]

Can you guys give me percentages for the characters? I've been going page by page and you guys don't make it clear what the ratio is...

 

[Jim Morrison]

which characters?

 

[Chis]

Fox, Luigi, Game and Watch, Ness, R.O.B, Metaknight, Ice climbers, Yoshi, Falco and Wario.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yoshi was 60:40 to him I'm sure. Game and Watch was 65:35. MK was err... Same I believe.

 

[Tenki]

I really suck at Squirtle.

Squirtle can do some really fun feinty stuff with his dash pivots and dash pivot cancels.

I do use his D-throw as either a GTFO-I-WANNA-SWITCH move, or pummel-dthrow to force opponent to start to panic and then D-throw hoping for bad DI and an early kill lol.

DI it upwards, unless you're on the opposite side of the stage at a high % (better to DI it sideways in that case, so you fly towards the opposite side of the stage instead of ceiling).

9_9; Squirtle's jab is pretty fun. You can avoid a ton of stamina issues if you jab alot.

Watergun is fun, but at most, its use in this matchup would be for FIHL on F-air or to screw up your spacing and force you to panic roll into him.

Squirtle's aerial priority is annoying most times though. If anything, this one is either neutral (if you're hopeful) but realistically, somewhere in Squirtle's advantage.

I'm not really sure why, but Falcon has a grab release chaingrab on Squirtle. No idea if Squirtle's aerial grab break is dumb for Sonic too, though.

 

[Chis]

I'll edit the chart later...

The more red, the more disadvantaged.

The more blue, the more advantaged.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It's painful to look at the new chart.

This:

Over this

I still find MK, Marth and GaW black :/

 

[Chis]

It's only got 3 main colours of different tones, how is that pain full? Stop being lazy.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I keep thinking the yellow/beige is 50:50. Find another colour for 55:45. Make the yellow one 50:50?

 

[Chis]

That's why I have a legend? Gray seems fine to me.

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, it's gay. Gray shouldn't even be a colour.

 

[Chis]

Then white?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yea, white would be a nice transition from light blue to light yellow?

 

[thecatinthehat]

I still think using colors just complicates things. Stick withthe numbers.

 

[DanGR]

Go by the color scheme in my matchup chart.

 

[Chis]

Colours > numbers

 

[Zephramrill]

Ok who wnats to play me tonight? im a squirtle specialist.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Ok who wnats to play me tonight? im a squirtle specialist.

I do. I need me some PT experience.

 

[Browny]

once again,

lol @ yoshi being worse than olimar

 

[Bestiarius]

Kinzer and ShadowLink84: a few little things:
Kinzer: When I said Sonic is not the quickest, I meant his attacks do not come out as fast as some other characters in the game; however, his running speed is the fastest in the game. Allow me to use Charizard as an example: his running speed is the same as Pikachu's, but NOBODY would call him quick, because he's a heavyweight and his attacks are subsequently slower than most. That's what I mean when I differentiate between speed and quickness. However I didn't think about the spring, but it's kinda problematic because it puts Sonic in the air, and then he's in Squirtle's area of expertise.
ShadowLink84: If you think that comboes don't exist, you've never played a good Squirtle. His attacks, especially his aerials, have very close to zero lag, allowing him to chain many together. And, of course, he has a jab-lock (and the rare but possible f-tilt lock against a wall). If a lock isn't a combo, I'm gonna have to agree with you in saying that there is no such thing as comboes in Brawl. On a side note, play a good IC main and see if you keep that opinion that Brawl has no comboes after they get you in an illegal chaingrab . Also fatigue does not hurt Squirtle very badly. In fact, depending on how the person controlling Squirtle is playing, it can actually make Squirtle better. Before you flame me, allow me to explain. Squirtle is not a killing machine; that would be Charizard's job in the PT roster. Squirtle's main purpose is to rack up damage with many near-lagless attacks strung together. Now, when fatigue sets in, his attacks have very little knockback, not mention that diminished returns have already brought it down even more. This allows him to chain many more attacks together, playing an aerial game that is very hard to fight against. Sooner or later, you're probably going to have to switch, but if Squirtle can get one grab off, all he has to is down throw and switch to Ivysaur. If the down throw doesn't kill, and, even with fatigue, that's a definite possibility, Ivysaur is fresh with no diminished returns or fatigue, and Sonic's got a problem.

To both of you: besides, I never said it was a great matchup for Squirtle, I said at best he had a slight advantage. It's just that if Sonic gets careless, a jab lock would easily cause about 60% and put you in a bad spot fast. It's still a very close matchup, just maybe 55-45 in Squirtle's favor.

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic has quite a few jab lock setups of his own XD.

Will add to this post.

 

[Zephramrill]

Bestiarius... jab lock happens in like 1/1000 matches and NEVER to sonic. If anything sonic will jab lock you

 

[Itburns]

sonic may be fast but he cant outrun a forward hydroplane.

 

[Bestiarius]

I didn't say it's likely, I just said it's possible and only used it to say that comboes exist. But I will say that I shouldn't have put that forward as an option if Sonic is careless. I recant.

Itburns: He can't??

 

[Chis]

Can hydroplane cross final destination under one second? If it can't you're wrong.

 

[Napilopez]

sonic may be fast but he cant outrun a forward hydroplane.

Umm, I'm pretty sure he can. At least, he can get away in time if he uses it from far away(which he likely will, since I cant think we he would use it from right next to sonic) . Any PTs wanna play? Kinda rusty, but still, matchup experience. PM or catch me on AIM or MSN if you do.