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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
hippyman69
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2008
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- 83
yeh, i know. it doesn't matter.
Chis
Finally a legend
Has anyone made an export in the G&W's board yet?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
If there is, it's not on first page, so I think you should make one
cutter
Smash Champion
I played this matchup not too long ago against a competent Sonic player. He wasn't SUPER advanced with him, but he definately knew how to use Side B and Down B spinshot stuff.
Our first couple of matches went really close because I didn't know about the Side B and Down B tricks that really caught me off guard. Then I adjusted my playstyle drastically by playing very defensive with G&W, and I was consistently beating him.
One of the things that I've found to be the bane of Sonic is G&W's Up B OOS. I use this a lot to get out of a bad situation. This move is pretty much impossible to punish; the initial startup frames have a wind/vortex animation. Sometimes you get pushed away by the move; other times you get pulled into it. It seems to be dependant on your location as the attack gets executed. The move has 5 frames of complete invincibility (it's about just under halfway of G&W's jump) and it has excellent priority considering it isn't a disjointed hitbox. Obviously G&W can attack from there.
How does this fit into the whole picture with Sonic's Side B and Down Bs? Well G&W can stomach the first hit off of either special and then Up B OOS. This will allow G&W to either worm out of trouble or hit Sonic since the invinc frames override any attack he has other than the invinc frames on his Side B.
You don't want to be above G&W at all. His Uair obviously shuts down Sonic's Dair and it will refresh G&W's stale moves even if you're just hit by the wind. G&W also has an amazing Nair that has a crazy disjointed hitbox piling on lots of damage.
Sonic has to play a very defensive oriented game if he wants to stand a chance of winning this matchup. G&W can easily abuse his disjointed hitboxes and crush Sonic from a trading attacks standpoint.
If you powershield the first hit of G&W's Bair, you won't get shieldstabbed. I don't know if a depleted shield can take all the hits though.
If you manage to grab G&W, Dthrow him. G&W has an awful techroll.
Sonic is tough to edgeguard because he can use all his B moves to get back on the stage (correct?). You want to be wary though of Fair, slowfalled Dair and Up B pushing you back out of the stage and giving G&W free damage.
G&W's wall of disjointed hitboxes (especially his Nair and Bair), overpowered kill moves, and his amazing Up B OOS really disrupt Sonic from his normal game.
I'd say 65/35 in favor of G&W.
Our first couple of matches went really close because I didn't know about the Side B and Down B tricks that really caught me off guard. Then I adjusted my playstyle drastically by playing very defensive with G&W, and I was consistently beating him.
One of the things that I've found to be the bane of Sonic is G&W's Up B OOS. I use this a lot to get out of a bad situation. This move is pretty much impossible to punish; the initial startup frames have a wind/vortex animation. Sometimes you get pushed away by the move; other times you get pulled into it. It seems to be dependant on your location as the attack gets executed. The move has 5 frames of complete invincibility (it's about just under halfway of G&W's jump) and it has excellent priority considering it isn't a disjointed hitbox. Obviously G&W can attack from there.
How does this fit into the whole picture with Sonic's Side B and Down Bs? Well G&W can stomach the first hit off of either special and then Up B OOS. This will allow G&W to either worm out of trouble or hit Sonic since the invinc frames override any attack he has other than the invinc frames on his Side B.
You don't want to be above G&W at all. His Uair obviously shuts down Sonic's Dair and it will refresh G&W's stale moves even if you're just hit by the wind. G&W also has an amazing Nair that has a crazy disjointed hitbox piling on lots of damage.
Sonic has to play a very defensive oriented game if he wants to stand a chance of winning this matchup. G&W can easily abuse his disjointed hitboxes and crush Sonic from a trading attacks standpoint.
If you powershield the first hit of G&W's Bair, you won't get shieldstabbed. I don't know if a depleted shield can take all the hits though.
If you manage to grab G&W, Dthrow him. G&W has an awful techroll.
Sonic is tough to edgeguard because he can use all his B moves to get back on the stage (correct?). You want to be wary though of Fair, slowfalled Dair and Up B pushing you back out of the stage and giving G&W free damage.
G&W's wall of disjointed hitboxes (especially his Nair and Bair), overpowered kill moves, and his amazing Up B OOS really disrupt Sonic from his normal game.
I'd say 65/35 in favor of G&W.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Thanks cutter, that helped out a lot 
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Yay I was hoping someone would show up.
I actually thought it was worse though IMO <_<
I actually thought it was worse though IMO <_<
cutter
Smash Champion
I can see the match up being 7/3 in favor of G&W, but no more than that. If G&W were heavier this would be a complete blowout... but Sonic can kill G&W at reasonable %s. It's not that hard to keep moves from going stale.
IMO 7/3 means significant advantage, which I do agree G&W has over Sonic, but it's not like 8/2, 9/1, or 10/0. That's reserved for things like characters that get victimized by DDD's infinite.
IMO 7/3 means significant advantage, which I do agree G&W has over Sonic, but it's not like 8/2, 9/1, or 10/0. That's reserved for things like characters that get victimized by DDD's infinite.
I usually think most Mr. Game & Watch players exaggerate matchups, but I don't think this is the case here. My experience comes from playing Xion, a good KC Sonic main, and a local Sonic here in Rolla who plays a really bizarre Sonic style (lots of spring!). I think I know the matchup decently well from seeing a good "book" Sonic and a very "out of book" Sonic.
Sonic playing defensively is definitely just playing into Mr. Game & Watch's hands. In almost every attribute, Mr. Game & Watch just flat out outclasses Sonic. He has more range and priority, and he kills Sonic way lower. Mr. Game & Watch wins over the edge. Mr. Game & Watch is a better ledgestaller. Mr. Game & Watch rules the air. Mr. Game & Watch's projectile may suck, but Sonic doesn't have one at all. There is no real good spacing for Sonic while there are tons of good options for Mr. Game & Watch. Mr. Game & Watch can act safely; Sonic generally cannot. The point of this is that defensive play here is really just removing the unexpected and letting things follow their natural course. And the natural course, unless the Sonic player is considerably better than the Mr. Game & Watch player, is for the Mr. Game & Watch player to win soundly.
I'm not saying it's unwinnable, but I'm saying that Sonic has to exploit his only real advantage. Sonic is really unpredictable, and if played very aggressively, Sonic players can hope to confuse and outwit their opponents. I'm not saying to trade hits because Sonic can't afford it. I'm saying you have to keep attacking in a wild, unpredictable manner and keep dancing around Mr. Game & Watch's attempts to stuff your approaches. Never slow down; if you slow down, you lose.
Basically, what happens is that Mr. Game & Watch's down tilt beats out 100% of Sonic's options on the ground, and all of his aerials are really good at stuffing everything Sonic can do in the air. If he ever catches Sonic in an unwise approach, he gets a devastatingly powerful smash. Sonic's job is to trick Mr. Game & Watch into trying to answer the wrong things. Running at him and jumping into an aerial spin over the down tilt is a frequent and useful tactic. If Mr. Game & Watch jumps up to deal with that, dashing in to punish his landing lag is what you have to do don't whine that it's not long (you are Sonic; you can punish everything). Sometimes you just make like you're approaching and then don't, inciting the Mr. Game & Watch player to throw something out he will regret. Despite being low tier, a competent Sonic can create a VERY good "fear aura". It's hard for me to describe, and I can only assume that you Sonic players are very familiar with it given that it's the best thing about Sonic. Your path to victory is using your narrow range of options to punish him by exploiting the fact that Sonic is impossible to read while a lot of Mr. Game & Watch players can be read like books.
Also, about being above him, you have some options up there. A well timed homing attack can actually be a pain, and that stupid spring is the only thing you have that actually beats out most of what Mr. Game & Watch has. The down aerial lets you get down quickly, but be you warned that doing it at Mr. Game & Watch (as opposed to the ground a good distance away) is a signature of your own death certificate. I disagree with cutter that it's an especially bad place to be. I wouldn't hang around up there, but Sonic has relatively numerous options compared to most characters.
In my experience, Sonic's most dangerous kill tactic here is to do an aerial spin into an up aerial. Sonic has a few ways to pop Mr. Game & Watch up, and keying down is really unsafe if the Sonic player is on his toes (you can punish the landing lag of the key, making the Mr. Game & Watch player not quite sure what to do when you knock him upward). You'll have a very hard time getting kills in this matchup (don't expect to ever hit with fsmash), but there is at least this which is sufficiently dangerous.
About stages, you're in real trouble. Mr. Game & Watch players are going to boil down to two stages: Norfair and Rainbow Cruise. Both of these stages really ruin your ability to dance around Mr. Game & Watch's stuff, and they narrow your mobility enough to make you far more predictable. I'm really not sure how Sonic can hope to win on these stages to be honest; my best advice would be to avoid fighting entirely during the "jumping around" portion of Rainbow Cruise and to try to attack in unison with the hazards on Norfair. If somehow you can subvert both those picks, expect to see a stage like Green Greens where it's generally obnoxious to move around.
In terms of what to pick, I honestly have to suggest Final Destination for Sonic. Basically everything that could give Mr. Game & Watch somewhere else to go or some way to slow things down is going to be bad for Sonic, and Final Destination is going to minimize that (Bridge of Eldin would be even better if it were generally legal!). The one counterpick that maybe warrants some thought is Luigi's Mansion though. Sonic can run around that stage really well, and if he plays smart in positioning, his kill move problems seem to go away somewhat as Mr. Game & Watch will have to deal with the techfest situation too. Just don't get too confident picking it; Mr. Game & Watch players tend to like that course for good reason. As I think about it, PictoChat may be pretty good too. You can typically be evasive during unfavorable drawings, and good drawings can come in and throw the Mr. Game & Watch player off long enough to let you move in and exploit the situation.
I'd say the matchup is 70-30 Mr. Game & Watch if not worse. Sonic can do well here if the Mr. Game & Watch player isn't ready for it, but in the end, he has to win too many prediction wars for the matchup to look good for him at all if the Mr. Game & Watch player knows the matchup.
Sonic playing defensively is definitely just playing into Mr. Game & Watch's hands. In almost every attribute, Mr. Game & Watch just flat out outclasses Sonic. He has more range and priority, and he kills Sonic way lower. Mr. Game & Watch wins over the edge. Mr. Game & Watch is a better ledgestaller. Mr. Game & Watch rules the air. Mr. Game & Watch's projectile may suck, but Sonic doesn't have one at all. There is no real good spacing for Sonic while there are tons of good options for Mr. Game & Watch. Mr. Game & Watch can act safely; Sonic generally cannot. The point of this is that defensive play here is really just removing the unexpected and letting things follow their natural course. And the natural course, unless the Sonic player is considerably better than the Mr. Game & Watch player, is for the Mr. Game & Watch player to win soundly.
I'm not saying it's unwinnable, but I'm saying that Sonic has to exploit his only real advantage. Sonic is really unpredictable, and if played very aggressively, Sonic players can hope to confuse and outwit their opponents. I'm not saying to trade hits because Sonic can't afford it. I'm saying you have to keep attacking in a wild, unpredictable manner and keep dancing around Mr. Game & Watch's attempts to stuff your approaches. Never slow down; if you slow down, you lose.
Basically, what happens is that Mr. Game & Watch's down tilt beats out 100% of Sonic's options on the ground, and all of his aerials are really good at stuffing everything Sonic can do in the air. If he ever catches Sonic in an unwise approach, he gets a devastatingly powerful smash. Sonic's job is to trick Mr. Game & Watch into trying to answer the wrong things. Running at him and jumping into an aerial spin over the down tilt is a frequent and useful tactic. If Mr. Game & Watch jumps up to deal with that, dashing in to punish his landing lag is what you have to do don't whine that it's not long (you are Sonic; you can punish everything). Sometimes you just make like you're approaching and then don't, inciting the Mr. Game & Watch player to throw something out he will regret. Despite being low tier, a competent Sonic can create a VERY good "fear aura". It's hard for me to describe, and I can only assume that you Sonic players are very familiar with it given that it's the best thing about Sonic. Your path to victory is using your narrow range of options to punish him by exploiting the fact that Sonic is impossible to read while a lot of Mr. Game & Watch players can be read like books.
Also, about being above him, you have some options up there. A well timed homing attack can actually be a pain, and that stupid spring is the only thing you have that actually beats out most of what Mr. Game & Watch has. The down aerial lets you get down quickly, but be you warned that doing it at Mr. Game & Watch (as opposed to the ground a good distance away) is a signature of your own death certificate. I disagree with cutter that it's an especially bad place to be. I wouldn't hang around up there, but Sonic has relatively numerous options compared to most characters.
In my experience, Sonic's most dangerous kill tactic here is to do an aerial spin into an up aerial. Sonic has a few ways to pop Mr. Game & Watch up, and keying down is really unsafe if the Sonic player is on his toes (you can punish the landing lag of the key, making the Mr. Game & Watch player not quite sure what to do when you knock him upward). You'll have a very hard time getting kills in this matchup (don't expect to ever hit with fsmash), but there is at least this which is sufficiently dangerous.
About stages, you're in real trouble. Mr. Game & Watch players are going to boil down to two stages: Norfair and Rainbow Cruise. Both of these stages really ruin your ability to dance around Mr. Game & Watch's stuff, and they narrow your mobility enough to make you far more predictable. I'm really not sure how Sonic can hope to win on these stages to be honest; my best advice would be to avoid fighting entirely during the "jumping around" portion of Rainbow Cruise and to try to attack in unison with the hazards on Norfair. If somehow you can subvert both those picks, expect to see a stage like Green Greens where it's generally obnoxious to move around.
In terms of what to pick, I honestly have to suggest Final Destination for Sonic. Basically everything that could give Mr. Game & Watch somewhere else to go or some way to slow things down is going to be bad for Sonic, and Final Destination is going to minimize that (Bridge of Eldin would be even better if it were generally legal!). The one counterpick that maybe warrants some thought is Luigi's Mansion though. Sonic can run around that stage really well, and if he plays smart in positioning, his kill move problems seem to go away somewhat as Mr. Game & Watch will have to deal with the techfest situation too. Just don't get too confident picking it; Mr. Game & Watch players tend to like that course for good reason. As I think about it, PictoChat may be pretty good too. You can typically be evasive during unfavorable drawings, and good drawings can come in and throw the Mr. Game & Watch player off long enough to let you move in and exploit the situation.
I'd say the matchup is 70-30 Mr. Game & Watch if not worse. Sonic can do well here if the Mr. Game & Watch player isn't ready for it, but in the end, he has to win too many prediction wars for the matchup to look good for him at all if the Mr. Game & Watch player knows the matchup.
Hmm
Your description of the up-B OoS sounds alot like the kind of 'must do immediately' sort of punishments that you'd think of for things like MK Shuttle Loop, lol. Just thought it was kinda interesting.
How punishable is the up-B (and I assume the resultant F-air/B-air/D-air) from below? Can GAW airdodge out of up-B?
I don't know if your friend/opponent did this, but there are also things like approaching spindash cancels, and if you really want this matchup discussion to reflect gameplay, it might be a good idea to take into account the punishability of your reactions to spindashes.
cutter
Smash Champion
G&W is able to anything out of his Up B except Up B again. That includes airdodging.
I think you're referring to ROB, who can't airdodge with his Up B.
I think you're referring to ROB, who can't airdodge with his Up B.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Sonic isn't that easy to KO. Either you KO him off the sides, or he recovers, no matter how far. Side-B, jump, spring is too good recovery.
cutter
Smash Champion
G&W doesn't have to rely on edgeguarding/gimping to get his kills. His brute force smashes obliterate Sonic at high percents if they connect, especially a tipper Dsmash or a Usmash.
cutter
Smash Champion
I consider high percents to be around 90-100% range or so.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
G&W is annoying though. He will kill Sonic early if he lands a shot.
Worst power:weight ratio ever. >_>
Worst power:weight ratio ever. >_>
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I have a much easier time punishing G&W than you're making it seem. Granted the only good G&Ws I played were Yes and Valdens and that was on lagfi but if you can punish on Wifi you can punish IRL.
Chis
Finally a legend
This sounds a bit exaggerated to me...
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
How so?
Chis
Finally a legend
I'm hearing player oriented things and so far I've only listened to Game and Watch mainers.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
I have yet to face a competent GaW yet, having always trounced every one without fail, the sure sign of a bad GaW. So in the end, I won't be much help. All I can say is to mix it up often so as not to get set up and punished. Work on whittling GaW's percentage while keeping yourself as far as possible, normally by doing ftilts and... well... That's about it. This is not a good match up at all, from what I've read. Perhaps a more focused grab game?
Chis
Finally a legend
Did anyone mention that you can smash DI out of the turtle, G&W's aerials lags and smashes have a bit of cool down? Punish?
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
That's kind of what I was getting at. XD
Seriously. Go smacktalk a GaW and try it out. Read any one of Tenki's How to Falcon Punch guides and apply Spindash. Don't forget that you can CANCEL it and it can be followed up better than Falcon Punch and... Voila! One of the most effective counter games EVER!
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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Always stay grounded against an aerial G&W. He's actually more punishable than you'd think. If he bairs, don't shield, run away just out of range. That thing has punishable ending lag, something I didn't realise til a bit ago.
The thing I have most trouble with is approaching. A closed ranged spindash is so so, but I find hyphen smashing pretty good in this match-up.
Spacing with ftilt is important with both of you grounded.
I seriously recommend avoiding shielding at all, his aerials eat your shield horribly. Run just out of range, and punish any ending lag they might have.
As far as I'm concerned, effectively edgeguarding is out of the question for both characters here. Both recoveries are pretty much ungimpable. The only thing edgeguarding is going to do here is rack up damage, and not gimp.
G&W is considerably lighter than Sonic, but G&W more than balances that out by having crazy overpowered kill moves. He'll be killing you at a lower percent than you'll be killing him. His dsmash is crazy spammable.
I find in this match-up that you need to be very safe and defensive. There are very few ways to safetly rack up damage on Gaymenwatch. Grab follow ups should be used more liberally in this match then others. Tilts should be used. Aerials other than to punish should not be used.
Can Sonic cope with G&W's range? Methinks not.
35:65 G&W's favour :\
I'll write more later.
What was the verdict on Luigi anyway? 45:55?
The thing I have most trouble with is approaching. A closed ranged spindash is so so, but I find hyphen smashing pretty good in this match-up.
Spacing with ftilt is important with both of you grounded.
I seriously recommend avoiding shielding at all, his aerials eat your shield horribly. Run just out of range, and punish any ending lag they might have.
As far as I'm concerned, effectively edgeguarding is out of the question for both characters here. Both recoveries are pretty much ungimpable. The only thing edgeguarding is going to do here is rack up damage, and not gimp.
G&W is considerably lighter than Sonic, but G&W more than balances that out by having crazy overpowered kill moves. He'll be killing you at a lower percent than you'll be killing him. His dsmash is crazy spammable.
I find in this match-up that you need to be very safe and defensive. There are very few ways to safetly rack up damage on Gaymenwatch. Grab follow ups should be used more liberally in this match then others. Tilts should be used. Aerials other than to punish should not be used.
Can Sonic cope with G&W's range? Methinks not.
35:65 G&W's favour :\
I'll write more later.
What was the verdict on Luigi anyway? 45:55?
A2ZOMG
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This is one of the gayest matchups in the entire game.
Anyhow, G&W has better juggling, better recovery, better edgeguarding, and better camping, so he has the advantage.
I wrote a summary just recently about this matchup from what I've seen.
Anyhow, G&W has better juggling, better recovery, better edgeguarding, and better camping, so he has the advantage.
I wrote a summary just recently about this matchup from what I've seen.
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
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Not sure, maybe 60:40 weegee? Hate to bring back ol' chars but what does every1 els think?
Edit: I'll go with 55:45 to weegee, we **** from underneath and **** his recovery and are pretty good punishers all that jazz (and fireballs arent impossible to get past at all). I'm happy with that as long as you guys are...
Front page updated
Edit: I'll go with 55:45 to weegee, we **** from underneath and **** his recovery and are pretty good punishers all that jazz (and fireballs arent impossible to get past at all). I'm happy with that as long as you guys are...
Front page updated
Chis
Finally a legend
A2ZOMG
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No, G&W definitely has better recovery than Sonic.
You can't hit him out of his Up-B 99.9% of the time, and it sweetspots the edge. He has better aerial DI, safer aerial attacks, and he has much better edgecamping.
You can't hit him out of his Up-B 99.9% of the time, and it sweetspots the edge. He has better aerial DI, safer aerial attacks, and he has much better edgecamping.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Making up numbers is my best class. Sonic can do 49 damage certain if you can ASC
SonicX580
Smash Lord
No I think it's either 45:55 or 50:50 (in Sonic's favor).
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Green, thanks for updating page. We havent finished GaW though, we just started. Although we know it's red... Anyway, it does look a bit grim for sonic. 3 gray, 1 blue, 7 red lol
Greenstreet
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lol yer i thought i'd put it in....
ROOOOY!
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That's how it should be.
Except I don't agree with some of the verdicts lol.
IMO, Mario should be disadvantage, and DK should be neutral.
Ah well.
G&W in no way has a better recovery than Sonic.
Chis
Finally a legend
UpB invincible frames, speed, distance, spin shot. Just read all those posts in that Recovery tier list. I don't have time to fix misconceptions.
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
SonicX580, no.
A2ZOMG, recovery goes to Sonic hands down.
Spindash
Spinshot
Slow falling speed
Spring has over 9000 height + invincibility frames.
You can footstool/walljump/attack after using up-b
Homing attack.
Sonic is impossible to gimp. He can recover from virtually anywhere off stage.
A2ZOMG, recovery goes to Sonic hands down.
Spindash
Spinshot
Slow falling speed
Spring has over 9000 height + invincibility frames.
You can footstool/walljump/attack after using up-b
Homing attack.
Sonic is impossible to gimp. He can recover from virtually anywhere off stage.
A2ZOMG
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His Up-B is way better than Sonic's, and actually sweetspots the ledge. G&W is better at recovering from above. He is practically untouchable when he's at the ledge because of his really gay N-air edgecamping.
Just because Sonic gets a little more raw distance, that doesn't mean at all his recovery is safer. G&W's recovery from all practical positions is by far safer than Sonic's.
Also, if you recover from below, you will get D-aired and you risk taking a stagespike. If you recover from above, he can U-air stall until you do something he decides he will punish.
ROOOOY!
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SONIC DOES NOT JUST HAVE TO USE THE SPRING.
He has like 4 different methods of recovering, some of which can be used one after the other.
Spring has invincibility frames.
Wtf are we even debating recoveries for? Sonic's is better, and it's pretty hard to refute.
In your original post you said it was better than Sonic's not safer, though I'd agree with neither.
I'd also disagree with the juggling bit, in this match-up anyway.
Which is what we're supposed to be talking about.
Match-up specific things >_>
He has like 4 different methods of recovering, some of which can be used one after the other.
Spring has invincibility frames.
Wtf are we even debating recoveries for? Sonic's is better, and it's pretty hard to refute.
In your original post you said it was better than Sonic's not safer, though I'd agree with neither.
I'd also disagree with the juggling bit, in this match-up anyway.
Which is what we're supposed to be talking about.
Match-up specific things >_>
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
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That sweet spot is great for staying out on the edge. There isn't much Sonic can do in that situation. I'd rather have GaW's up B to be honest, 1/3 invinvibility frames and mad priority at the same time?
Yer, I'd prefer Game and Watches...plus he can use B moves after....
As for overall recovery they are pretty even so lets move on... (we catch because of versatility)
Yer, I'd prefer Game and Watches...plus he can use B moves after....
As for overall recovery they are pretty even so lets move on... (we catch because of versatility)
A2ZOMG
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The point is G&W actually can harass Sonic offstage due to having better tools for working offstage.
The other way around? It doesn't work because his Up-B will usually hit you away. G&W's Up-B also has invincibility frames, during which it is ALSO an attack.
The other way around? It doesn't work because his Up-B will usually hit you away. G&W's Up-B also has invincibility frames, during which it is ALSO an attack.