Sonic: The Go-To N00b Character

[TwinkleToes]

Some mod needs to purge this thread from the forum already.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

That would also be welcome.

 

[Lyoncet]

*blush*

Oh, that's that this whole 10char thing is about.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I don't care how much you contributed in somewhere else. In this thread the majority of your posts hardly count as "relevant contributions."

I never said the game will come down to who can hit the hardest. I said being able to kill by sending the other players past the blast zone is valuable given the new game mechanics. Gimping and edgeguarding still exist, but the fact of the matter is that far fewer opportunities for them arise due to the majority of the cast automatically sweetspotting the ledge.

As I recall, I only retaliated after I actually made an effort to write some game analysis and you persisted in calling me a troll and saying that everything I wrote was just flames. Kuja and Mcnichoj appreciated it, even if they didn't entirely believe it. Maybe I'm oversensitive, but I'm pretty sure that counts as flaming, as euphemistic as it is. How would you like it if I called your Sonic guide a worthless piece of ****? (I'm half expecting you to tell me you wouldn't care just to spite me; in fact I feel like most of your responses here are just to spite me.) Honestly, you're a **** to anyone who disagrees with you.

Sonic can be edgeguarded similar to how Fox gets edgeguarded in Melee. There are a handful of recovery options that he can mixup, and you can pay attention and react to them accordingly: waiting for an airdodge and then attacking, following aerial movement, punishing dair landlag, etc.

In the end, I really think it comes down to you not wanting to accept that Sonic is not a good character, and consequently training hard with him to "prove" something, instead of assessing the overall effectiveness of his abilities compared to the rest of the cast.

Lyoncet, I never said there are 37 characters I can't beat with Sonic. Your ego said that. I said there are 37 characters who are probably better overall characters because they have a better set of tools to work with. I count 0 posts by you of actual value, and three or so of flames.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Y'know, I'm stll not seeing Sonic's recovery as being like Fox's. I'd compare it more to Peach's. Pit is closer to Fox... maaaaaaaybe Falco, given how easy it is to gimp.

Sonic's not the best character, or even probably high tier, I'm predicting solid mid.

Ignoring all my other contributions is great, really lends to your credibility. By the by, there are admittedly fewer chances to gimp, but only by a small margin. The gimps aren't as amazing or as extravagant, but you're likely to get at least one or two each round, if you're playing right. Of course, it's based on who and what character you're playing/fighting, but you get what I'm saying.

My Sonic "impressions" are actually pretty crappy right now. They were written on the fly, a week or two after I started playing. I really do need to revamp those. However, the guide itself: the percents, the basic knockback, and the like, is not. It's solid facts, unlike your musings comparing Ike's average recovery to Sonic's stellar recovery. Again, the impressions are utter ****e, and probably will be for some time to come as metagame evolves, but the actual facts are not.

I'm not a **** to everyone that disagrees with me. It's your manner of disagreement. There's a difference between discussing things with M2k, Timotee, LuCKy, and discussing things with you. They bring up things, and we discuss them, point by point, to figure out what goes where, and why. You just say things like "Sonic is the worst character in the game", then, only after an extended period of time, do you bother making a post filled with gross misinformation.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if you called my Sonic guide ****, because I'd have expected you to by now, anyway.

I'm not a Sonic fanboy, I don't play him because I have something to prove. Seriously, have you seen how often I go off on people for clogging serious threads with pointless fanboying? Have you ever once heard me claim that Sonic is high tier, or even high-mid? I play him because I like his playstyle, and because he's fun. If he ends up low tier, I'll be fine with it. Maybe it'll keep fanboys from playing him, and lend to me being more unique after the novelty of Sonic has worn off and people have moved on to other mains. However, I will contest him being the worst character in the game. He's not, by a long shot.

Also, to give you a brief overview, here are his 6 basic options for recovery.

1) Homing attack
2) Side-B
3) Down-B
4) Springboard
5) Dair
6) Mid-air dodging

This is completely discounting a second jump. If he has one of those, he can spinshot, do an obscene amount of homing attacks, simply jump, or about 4 other options. And that's without mixing any of the other recovery options.

Sonic is completely different from Fox with recovery in Melee. Sonic has massive invincibilty frames. Fox didn't. All you had to do to Fox was bthrow off the edge, and kill him. Sonic is just as hard to kill as SSBM's Peach. The options are night limitless for recovering with him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

When I recover with Sonic I can turn one into several others on the fly. One of my favorite parts about Sonic is he can switch his recovery option whenever someone starts to counter.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I don't actually think your Sonic guide is bad or anything, and I honestly don't care. I was just curious if you would consider an attack on something that you put a little bit of effort into as flaming. You claimed that you made "relevant contributions." I'm sure your Sonic guide is helpful, but here you've posted mostly flames.

That's great that you're not a **** to your friends and popular high level players. You are to people who don't fall into those categories.

Seriously, if Sonic isn't the worst character in the game, then who is? And how many characters, if there are any, are better than him? Four? And would it even be by a significant margin?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

No one knows who's better and who's not. That's kind of the point of us telling you to shut up.

What gets me is that you keep posting here as if you want, nay, NEED us to accept your point of view. If you are so sure you are right then you probably would have just shut up and basked in superiority. Instead you keep up this Unstoppable Force versus Immovable Object argument.

 

[BackOff07]

u r loser, video games are what they sound like, games. not life

 

[Umby]

In mimicry of Laijin, "Everyone's good in Brawl."

</discussion>

 

[Radical Dreamer]

No one knows who's better and who's not. That's kind of the point of us telling you to shut up.

What gets me is that you keep posting here as if you want, nay, NEED us to accept your point of view. If you are so sure you are right then you probably would have just shut up and basked in superiority. Instead you keep up this Unstoppable Force versus Immovable Object argument.

What gets me is how you weirdly over-psychologize things.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What gets me is how you weirdly over-psychologize things.

Hey. Just sayin'. If I can't convince people of my opinion I just accept it. Let them be wrong. And watch as they suffer for it later. (If, you know, they can end up suffering because of it)

Which in this case if Sonic is as bad as you say. We will all lose tournaments and end up in the same fetal position as the hedgehog we are supporting so vigorously.

 

[Lunaris]

radical dreamer, how's the trolling?

if i can roll chase someone on the notion that they will be rolling away from standing position on reaction from two ike fairs away, while other characters have trouble chasing when standing right next to someone rolling away, that character has potential and if you can't see that i don't know what to tell you.

i'd type up a wall of text but if you actually played melee and were halfway decent at it, i seriously doubt you could toss out the idea of a character with unprecedented comparative speed having potential without a second thought.

having said that i could understand if you really thought he was a bad character due to his monstrously low priority, but the most important thing in playing a character whose priority isn't the greatest is something that no one could possibly have the experience to be proficient at yet, which is spacing(you cannot tell me you have an intuitive understanding of every character's hitboxes and relative priorities yet; well, you could, but i'd just laugh at you). it's a large part of how you had to fight marth with less-prioritized characters in melee(which was everyone) and it's how sonic will fight other characters in brawl, except sonic actually has the tools to do that to every other character(speed).

however, even after people get used to the new movement system(no shielding out of dash animations etc) and relative priorities i am with you at least in doubting that he will rise far above mid tier, if he rises above it at all.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I would see his speed as potential if he had melee dashdancing.

 

[Lunaris]

if you're trying to bait me into calling his running turnaround a dash dance, i'm not going to. it's like a dash dance and still useful(sonic's dash attack goes through most characters' jabs and other quick attacks, and goes past shields as well), but no, not as good as a true dash dance. either way it is far closer to a dash dance than fox trotting.

regardless, the power to run circles around your opponent(he has incredibly fast upward, downward(especially important after upward movement), and horizontal speed), and the ability to evade an attack then run up to counter has always been extremely powerful in smash. by itself, the ability to run up and grab a shielding opponent before they can react to do anything is a huge advantage--it makes it so even at considerable distance the enemy will feel some kind of pressure no matter what, as sonic not only runs incredibly fast but breaks into a run incredibly fast as well. even at larger distances, generally the only safe action people have time for in reaction to seeing sonic starting a run towards them is rolling or dodging, and you will not be able to punish him if he just tries to grab you. please don't overestimate when i say "larger distances," i'm not saying you wouldn't have time to react if he ran at you from across the entire FD stage. think relative to the distances you know other characters require to run in and grab to beat reaction time.

sonic is literally so fast that from a pretty good distance, if your opponent is planning to do some attack towards you when you run into them you'll be past them before they can react(the distance at which you can do this depends on the attack, of course). they'd have to attack behind them in order to catch you in reactable time, and limit themselves to jabbing at further distances. more importantly and practically, sonic can easily cross up aerial opponents to get to the side they either A) won't be attacking on or B) have lower priority on.

my only problem with placing him somewhere is that i've figured out which characters i think are very good in this game, but i'm not as sure which ones are very bad. but i know that sonic definitely does not strike me as bottom tier material. out of curiosity, how long have you actually played sonic?



as to the topic, i highly doubt sonic will be a newbie character as spacing is very important and strict with him(although i can see casual spin dash spammers arising in the future), but at the same time i think a lot of melee veterans will at first be discouraged from him by the fact that they can't get used to not being able to shield out of the opening dash animation anymore, which will cause a lot of people to accidentally run into attacks thinking they can shield or dash dance away.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

He can dash dance. Get faster fingers.

 

[Lyoncet]

I'm still confused as to how your mind put together this scenario:

Radical: Ike can outrecover Sonic!
Zeal: Radical is probably a troll.
Radical: YOU'RE FLAMING ME! DOUCHEBAG!

It's also interesting that when you claim that Zeal is just trying to prove that Sonic is good to make himself feel better, you're being clear-headed. When anybody says you're trying to prove he's bad to make you feel better, we're flaming you.

But, I'm past the point of caring that much now, since 1) you've made a post that actually has some value to the thread (even if you told us in that post that you use Dair as a recovery move) and 2) everybody else seems to be as fed up with your double-standards and skewed perception as I am, so I don't need to waste my time pointing out those traits.

In response to Lunaris, the thing that, to me, makes Sonic deadly isn't necessarily his speed, but the rate at which he can change it. Sure, you can run up to an opponent and dash attack, or grab, or short-hop fair, but that gets pretty predictable. However, you can also run up and homing attack or spin charge cancel your dash, causing your opponent to miss their attack and setting you up beautifully for a nice little combo. Of course, that can get predictable too, which is when you revert to dash-shield-cancel-grab/ftilt goodness. It's all about changing things up.

Of course, these strategic changes also keep your moves from becoming stale.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

People will flock to him just because he is Sonic.

But the true noob characters for Brawl will be Meta Knight, Pit, Marth, and Toon Link to some extent.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

if you're trying to bait me into calling his running turnaround a dash dance, i'm not going to. it's like a dash dance and still useful(sonic's dash attack goes through most characters' jabs and other quick attacks, and goes past shields as well), but no, not as good as a true dash dance. either way it is far closer to a dash dance than fox trotting.

regardless, the power to run circles around your opponent(he has incredibly fast upward, downward(especially important after upward movement), and horizontal speed), and the ability to evade an attack then run up to counter has always been extremely powerful in smash. by itself, the ability to run up and grab a shielding opponent before they can react to do anything is a huge advantage--it makes it so even at considerable distance the enemy will feel some kind of pressure no matter what, as sonic not only runs incredibly fast but breaks into a run incredibly fast as well. even at larger distances, generally the only safe action people have time for in reaction to seeing sonic starting a run towards them is rolling or dodging, and you will not be able to punish him if he just tries to grab you. please don't overestimate when i say "larger distances," i'm not saying you wouldn't have time to react if he ran at you from across the entire FD stage. think relative to the distances you know other characters require to run in and grab to beat reaction time.

sonic is literally so fast that from a pretty good distance, if your opponent is planning to do some attack towards you when you run into them you'll be past them before they can react(the distance at which you can do this depends on the attack, of course). they'd have to attack behind them in order to catch you in reactable time, and limit themselves to jabbing at further distances. more importantly and practically, sonic can easily cross up aerial opponents to get to the side they either A) won't be attacking on or B) have lower priority on.

my only problem with placing him somewhere is that i've figured out which characters i think are very good in this game, but i'm not as sure which ones are very bad. but i know that sonic definitely does not strike me as bottom tier material. out of curiosity, how long have you actually played sonic?

I'm not trying to bait you into anything. I'm saying I think Sonic would have a lot more potential if he did actually have a true dashdance, and I highly doubt anyone would disagree with me here. My experience with competent Melee players is that they don't have too much problem reacting to Sonic's speed, probably since they're already accustomed to having to react to DDing Marths, Foxes and Falcons from Melee. I've been playing Sonic for about two weeks. Even if Sonic does have some potential, right now it certainly seems as if virtually every other character in the game has at least as much, if not way more potential than him. If that is indeed the case, he would indeed have to be low tier. There can't be 40 high tier characters since that runs contrary to the entire purpose of tiers. This is why I ask, who could possibly be worse than Sonic? Potential candidates so far seem to be Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, and not too many others. If those are the only characters who turn out worse than him, that still puts in at the lower end of the cast. Sonic is fast, but frankly his speed isn't as effective compared to the speed of the faster characters in Melee, although he may be faster than them now.

I'm still confused as to how your mind put together this scenario:

Radical: Ike can outrecover Sonic!
Zeal: Radical is probably a troll.
Radical: YOU'RE FLAMING ME! DOUCHEBAG!

It's also interesting that when you claim that Zeal is just trying to prove that Sonic is good to make himself feel better, you're being clear-headed. When anybody says you're trying to prove he's bad to make you feel better, we're flaming you.

But, I'm past the point of caring that much now, since 1) you've made a post that actually has some value to the thread (even if you told us in that post that you use Dair as a recovery move) and 2) everybody else seems to be as fed up with your double-standards and skewed perception as I am, so I don't need to waste my time pointing out those traits.

In response to Lunaris, the thing that, to me, makes Sonic deadly isn't necessarily his speed, but the rate at which he can change it. Sure, you can run up to an opponent and dash attack, or grab, or short-hop fair, but that gets pretty predictable. However, you can also run up and homing attack or spin charge cancel your dash, causing your opponent to miss their attack and setting you up beautifully for a nice little combo. Of course, that can get predictable too, which is when you revert to dash-shield-cancel-grab/ftilt goodness. It's all about changing things up.

Of course, these strategic changes also keep your moves from becoming stale.

That's because you're not actually confused about the scenario. You're selectively analyzing the scenario in a way that excludes Zeal's non-levelheaded remarks. After I actually made an honest attempt to look at game mechanics critically, he just responded by calling me a flaming troll. The fact he stated the my entire post was a flame makes it clear that this is purely a personal attack. I wouldn't expect any less from you since it's clear that you're here to do nothing but flame and not contribute anything worthwhile.

Frankly I'm fed up with your double-standards and skewed perceptions.

Radical, you sucking with Sonic ≠ Sonic being terrible. If there are 37 characters that can beat your Sonic, you're just awful. Stop trying to make yourself feel better by taking your anger out on the character.

Countering your lame-*** posts riddled with illogical claims and examples of your own ineptness is not flaming. It's putting you in your place.

BTW, you telling someone to "grow up" is absolutely hysterical.

I called you out as being a bad Sonic player only after you told us that there are 37 characters that you can't beat with him. Just re-stating what you already said. Don't see how that's being cruel, just level-headed.

Also, my trying to get you off of these forums (or at least be constructive) certainly falls into the category of "in the best interests of the community." I'd like to know how many people disagree with me.

In conclusion, inb4GrowUpStopBeingSoMeanDouchebagI'veDoneNoWrongSomeonePleaseListen

Exactly where you do get off condemning anyone else for trolling, flaming and not making relevant contributions? You're not in that position. The amount of hypocrisy here is HUGE. There's no way you can even deny that the first post isn't, and you frankly don't have a sound justification for posting it. I think telling you to grow up, of all people, is pretty appropriate. But hey, by all means, continue flaming and continue being a hypocrite. Hell, maybe you admit to all of this and are just here to deflect these criticisms from Zeal.

 

[Lunaris]

well, i'm glad to hear you're not trolling or practicing your debate skills.

and sonic's speed only suffers slightly from a lack of dash dancing. this is because all characters suffer from a lot of lag and lower maneuverability in general(on the ground).

anyways i'm going to withdraw now. anything i could actually say to make a decent argument for his character's quality(or at least the fact that he isn't atrocious) would require me to give out information i'd rather not. call me a prude or whatever but i need whatever advantages i can get in alaska, haha.

last thing i will say is that if you want an example of a character i -do- think is terrible, you might look at pikachu. slow moving projectile, many of his best combo attacks are multihit attacks which you can smash di to make useless, a predictable, laggy recovery, etc. doesn't really have any outstanding properties to make up for these fallings, his upsmash isn't the super move it used to be and neither is his tail spike as far as i know. i don't have any dedicated pikachu players near me, though, so that's all just based on looking at the character.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Pikachu?! AHAHAHAHAHAHA

OHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

How about still hitting like a truck despite his small size, the down smash having a vacuum effect to negate smash DI, much more spammable thunder, and do you even consider using skull bash to mix up recovery? Also he has wall jump!

I'd think I'd point to regular Link and his gimped moves instead.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

He can dash dance. Get faster fingers.

I hope that wasn't directed at Lunaris. That man is a beast. It's nice to get some backing from him, because I know he's credible, given how thoroughly he stomped through most (all?) my characters pre-OC3.

Lunaris, check your inbox.

EDIT: Kuja, don't lulz at Lunaris. He knows what he's talking about. Also, Link is going to be lower tier, but he still has a decent amount going for him. It just takes a little while to realize it. Still, he's probably going to be condemned to low tier, mid-low at best, and it's mainly due to his recovery.

Personally, I'd like to point to Peach. Shieldgrab is all you'll ever need to beat her now. Ever. Not even joking, that's how you beat her. Just don't get f aired.

Yoshi is actually better than he seems. He has this huge wall of boot that eats lower-priority characters alive. At least, for now he does. We'll see what happens.

Btw, RD, the reason I called your massive post trolling was because a HUGE majority of it was untrue.

 

[Lyoncet]

Btw, RD, the reason I called your massive post trolling was because a HUGE majority of it was untrue.

OMG stop flaming!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I hope that wasn't directed at Lunaris. That man is a beast. It's nice to get some backing from him, because I know he's credible, given how thoroughly he stomped through most (all?) my characters pre-OC3.

Nope. Post number... 94.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Carry on, then.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Intel XML Products
Still using Sonic? Upgrade to Intel's Hyper-ESB
www.intel.com/software/soae

Even the ADVERTISEMENTS don't like Sonic! *sobs*

 

[Flash0Lightning]

That's easy. Sonic can't kill Marth, Toon Link or Pit.

WHat the heck are you talking about?sonic has a great potential to kill marth cause he's one of hte few characters faster then him. his jumps get him back as well as pit so he can fight him out there and toon link is the only clone..if he can fight Link he cna fight toon link. Try some research or play the character before you make judgements.

 

[Absolute~Zero]

I can name 38 characters better than Sonic.

Well, actually, to be fair, I haven't played Yoshi yet, and I probably won't play him, so I guess that's a bit of a question mark. 37 characters anyway.

radical dreamer...are you ******? why do you think every character besides yoshi is better than sonic. care to show me any proof or are you going to spurt off at the mouth like always

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Flash, Toon Link is not a Link clone. He's about the same as Mario/Luigi were in SSBM, only pretend that Luigi became Fox. That's Toon Link. You do NOT fight them the same. Toon Link is much better. Marth is up in the air, I haven't played a good Marth in about 2 weeks with my Sonic, so I need to do that before I restate that Sonic can beat Marth handily. Pit, however, gets owned by the blue blur.

Zero, he's trolling, and that was from a while ago, just let it go.

Btw, RD, the reason why I don't treat respected pros and big names like i do you is because of just that. They're respected. You've done nothing but spout bullocks since day one. Hardly see why I shouldn't treat you like someone that whines about CGing and C-sticking.

 

[Absolute~Zero]

Flash, Toon Link is not a Link clone. He's about the same as Mario/Luigi were in SSBM, only pretend that Luigi became Fox. That's Toon Link. You do NOT fight them the same. Toon Link is much better. Marth is up in the air, I haven't played a good Marth in about 2 weeks with my Sonic, so I need to do that before I restate that Sonic can beat Marth handily. Pit, however, gets owned by the blue blur.

Zero, he's trolling, and that was from a while ago, just let it go.

Btw, RD, the reason why I don't treat respected pros and big names like i do you is because of just that. They're respected. You've done nothing but spout bullocks since day one. Hardly see why I shouldn't treat you like someone that whines about CGing and C-sticking.

thank you interimofzeal. and im sorry for asking this but...whats trolling. oh yeah i agree with you 100 %. usualy imformation i hear from you is true and trusted.

 

[Umby]

Trolling is generally acting ********/ignorant/like an *** to get a response from the audience. Usually a negative one for his/her own entertainment.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Trolling is trying to pick fights and discourage other readers/posters. Basically, acting like a troll.

 

[Absolute~Zero]

thanks, both of you. il watch out for people like that

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Pit gets owned by Sonic? I thought Pit was a Sonic Counter. Well that explains my matches versus my brother.

We need some sort of matchup list.

 

[Devi Poo]

Nah Sonic is acutally kind of hard for a lot of players to use. KO's are harder bc he has barely any finishers and he is easily knocked out.

I would say Ike is going to be one of the most over-used characters. Possibly dubbed a "noob-character"

 

[Spife]

Who's worse then Sonic? Link. (Based off of being a Link main in Melee and playing Link a bit in brawl, but not a whole lot).
His nair got nerfed a bit, his up-b *shutters* isn't the ridiculous kill move it was (who cares about charge up when there's no spike). You can hardly DI in his up-b either (you either get all vertical recovery with no DI or smash left or right for some horizontal but not very much). He pulls his projectiles slower, which would help cause the game's slower, but he's also slower so it just makes him slower. I can still play him better then Sonic but I blame Melee for that. Oh and with auto sweet spot with tether allows no variabllity when tethering. Plus, next time some one throws a bomb at you, try to swat it. Yeah, instead of swatting you do your aerial AND grab the bomb -__-;
...
Dark Link on the other hand shows promise for top tier

By the by, Link got worse (I think) without anyway to speed him up atm. This'll make him worse then Sonic, he probably has more priority but I don't think he has more potential.

 

[Dark Anakin]

I main Sonic just because I like playing as him and he is my fave character by far in Brawl. I have been playing seriously since the original when I mained Captain Falcon. In melee I mained Falco and really only ever played as him. I very rarely used to play as anyone else, but when I chose him I never realised he was so good, I just chose him because he was I thought the coolest character. After first playing with Sonic I was incredibly dissapointed but I stuck with him and now I'm not bad at all with him and I can beat my mates one on one 95% of the time. Noobs will no way have the commitment that it takes to main Sonic.

 

[memphischains]

This thread is very amusing, expecially RD trying to talk down about Sonic and Izzy.

 

[Johnny Smash]

Yeah noobs hate Sonic because it's so hard to kill people. I think he's definately one of the characters least likely to attract noobs for this reason... heck, when me and my friends first started playing Brawl we all though Sonic was crap.

 

[memphischains]

Yeah noobs hate Sonic because it's so hard to kill people. I think he's definately one of the characters least likely to attract noobs for this reason... heck, when me and my friends first started playing Brawl we all though Sonic was crap.

It's not just new kids to the game, it's everyone