Sonic Matchup Discussion. General

[Thor]

Sheik is dumb, her ftilt is am especially silly move. Bait it out though, Sonic goes fast.

It's probably better to just DI dash attack away, you can CC it to pretty high percents but once you get high enough percent, a CC will probably still let Sheik dash attack launch you and then you get KO'd by the timeless combo dash attack -> fair.

For the "You should know" portion: Sheik dthrow is a DI mixup with Sheik bthrow - while you usually hold away (and down) for dthrow, you also hold away and down for bthrow, BUT bthrow goes the opposite direction (so actually toward Sheik prior to the throw). The PMBR made this ~16 frames to try to make it unreactable - some humans CAN react to this [though I'd imagine doing so for extended periods is still difficult, as few humans have that quick a reaction speed), but one trick is to hold down whenever grabbed and then from there try to guess which throw is likely and DI that way. IF you DI such that you have the "right DI" you'll go far away [but can be set up for edgeguards because Sheik is dumb], but if you do not you'll be in a prime position to be regrabbed. As a Link main, I have also seen bthrow -> DACUS because I did was expecting dthrow (and was holding just away from Sheik, so what ended up being DIing in), and the DACUS tippered and KO'd me. I think that works on Sonic as well, at least at certain percents.

I read the Marth tips, and I have a few suggestions for things to change if the OP is willing to listen...

Spoiler: Marth-related

If Marth runs at someone, his 3 most likely options are dtilt, grab, and wavedash. Marth can crouch out of a run (not initial dash, but a run), and dtilt and grab are soooo much better than dash attack (which is slow and laggy). A Marth that is DDing will likely either keep DDing to bait something, wavedash -> dtilt/fsmash (fsmash riskier but some get greedy at KO percents or read a jump in, and fsmash beats jump in handily), or a grab. And Marth's really love grab because they have gigantic grab range and solid throws for positional advantage. Marth should also be able to fthrow CG Sonic at least on bad DI - DI away (also if you DI in you can be fsmashed for it).

Don't always tech in place - Marth can just regrab a tech in place. While it may generally be the best option, if you don't mix it up the Marth will just take every single free regrab, and that's a problem for Sonic.

Marth can short-hop fast-fall a nair and he does not need to L-cancel it [it autocancels]. As a result, SHFF nair is actually somewhat trickier to punish than one would think. However, if he does late nair, that does need to be L-cancelled.

 

[Luk]

1. I was not uste getting grabbed more often then i was grabbing them and let alone honestly getting grabbed at all lol, sonics so fast and boost grabs so fast that i rarely find myself ever getting grabbed besides vs sheik, even marths dont give me the trouble sheik does.

Wait really? I get absolutely wrecked by Marth by this one guy in particular, primarily because he grabs me with no problems at all. More generally, and keeping in line with Sheik week, even Sheik can grab me 3 or 4 times in a match. How do you avoid grabs so well?

Edit: Clarification.

 

[DrugsM2]

Wait really? I get absolutely wrecked by Marth by this one guy in particular, primarily because he grabs me with no problems at all. More generally, and keeping in line with Sheik week, even Sheik can grab me 3 or 4 times in a match. How do you avoid grabs so well?

Edit: Clarification.

just gotta move around alot, youre always gonna be faster then every other character, dash dancing allows sonic to just avoid everything rather then shielding or spot dodging it like other characters might have too

 

[Zenokidz]

Staying back and allowing sheik to approach you instead is probably for the best in this match up. Sonic dash dance allows him to bait out and punish some of her more lingering moves. ( dash attack in particular ) As for stages to go to, I recommend going somewhere where you can camp on platforms to avoid needles. it'll also give you the option to DI onto them to prevent re grabs in certain situations.

 

[GabPR]

This week we are switching over to GnW! Discuss

 

[JFyst]

I don't really know what to say for this match-up, his hit boxes are ********, little lag, big hitboxes, plenty of options, this match-up is the biggest, F U of bait and punish game, in my opinion one of sonic's worst MU's. I have few tricks when going into this MU, Granted I beat the local GnW in my area constantly, but it's one of those characters where i just play sonic and do my best to win.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

^ I wholeheartedly agree with this. You have to be on point with any punishes you can get, and make sure you stay out of his range. I beat my friend constantly too, although he might not be playing the MU optimally. Regardless, I think it still holds true.

 

[NyTR0]

*internally up-tilts as G&W*

 

[GabPR]

Soon making a change, who would you like to see next?

 

[Luk]

Soon making a change, who would you like to see next?

A local Lucario kicks my ass pretty routinely. I'd be curious to hear how other Sonics handle that MU.

 

[Shockbound]

Before I start, let me just say that I have never played against a real Sonic before. I do not know much about Sonic in general, which leaves me very afraid of facing a good Sonic in the future. I'd like to see what you people have to say about Game and Watch so that I can learn as much about the matchup as I can for when I inevitably end up having to deal with it.

As a G&W main, I can already tell right off the bat that Sonic has some great tools for dealing with my character. Simply dash dancing to control space looks like it would be enough to remove most of G&W's options in neutral.

Here are some extremely valuable tips for playing against G&W that pretty much anybody in the cast can also take advantage of:

• First and foremost, be very patient. G&W has very few reliable approach options and can have a very difficult time getting in on his opponent when they are ready for him. His awful mobility in neutral can easily be taken advantage of by a vast majority of the cast by dash dancing and watching his movement carefully. Stages with a lot of room to move around are especially difficult for G&W to maneuver safely in because it's possible for his opponent to run away from him until he eventually loses stage control.
• Stay on the ground. G&W's only safe option in neutral when you're not approaching him is to shorthop and throw bacon at you. When he does this, being in the air is no longer an option for you because bacon covers a lot of space. However, it's not actually completely safe for him to use; while there is indeed a hitbox on the pan, it's only there for a single frame (the same one that the projectile comes out on) before it disappears. This one-frame hitbox then cannot reappear until 14 frames later even when he executes it perfectly, making it easy to punish when you are dash dancing and ready to react to it. As bacon travels upwards initially, dashing under it on reaction should also be pretty easy to do.
• If he's sticking to the ground, he's trying to bait an attack from you. If you try to approach him with an attack at this time then he will crouch cancel it and immediately respond with a D-Tilt. This can be very dangerous to be hit by since G&W can then follow this up with a combo string and rack up tons of % on you. This is why patience is such a critical aspect of this matchup for anybody, as he will punish you extremely hard for trying to play aggressively. He can't be on the ground when he tries to throw bacon at you though, so you can punish him with an attack because he won't be able to crouch cancel it while still in the air. As soon as the first piece of bacon leaves the pan you should be all over him.
• Be very careful when committing. G&W's frame 1 Up-B will end up hitting you if your spacing is a little off, and he will be using this move at any time when he feels pressured. If you are hit by it, you'll be sent upwards along with him and he may be able to follow up on this to kill you at higher %s.
• Smash DI into him when being comboed. G&W normally has great followups on his Up-Air and Up-B, but these strings will end early if his opponent gets behind him quickly enough. You should always SDI in the direction opposite that G&W is traveling; you'll take upwards of 50% in a single punish otherwise.
• If he is recovering from above, bait out his aerials and punish them. G&W's hitboxes may stay out for a long time, but he will be locked into that animation for the remaining duration of his airtime if he decides to pull one out. During this time, his entire body is vulnerable to your attacks. Stay on the ground when he does this and, like always, continue dash dancing. The only move that he has that will give him full-body coverage is his N-Air, but it has a 20 frame startup and is easily punished on reaction by challenging him in the air. It also may be helpful to wait for him to land first before punishing, but keep in mind that his Up-Air, B-Air, and D-Air all have a landing hitbox on the first frame that he lands.
• Watch out for his speedy and long range DACUS. This is the one tool that he has to punish somebody that dash dances too much. It's hard to react to and it will catch you off guard if you aren't expecting it. It isn't totally safe because it has no hitbox until he reaches the end of his slide, so it can be punished on reaction with a grab. The only problem this poses is that it's fairly difficult to identify when he initiates this because the slide that comes after it is completely unexpected most of the time. You can figure out when he's trying to hit you with his DACUS when he attempts to adjust his spacing so that he can be at the appropriate distance for it to connect.
• All of his aerials are unsafe on shield. This is another good reason to stay on the ground. His B-Air looks like it would be safe on shield, but it's actually his least safe aerial with a -6 on shield. Shield-grab is good for when he ends up very close to you since he will usually try to Up-B afterwards. Even though the hitbox starts on frame 1, his Up-B actually has 8 frames of startup before he actually starts moving anywhere. A grab should always be able to armor through the hitbox.
• When he's on the ledge, stay away from it and dash dance. G&W's ledge options are very unsafe if his opponent is outside of the range of his F-Air and Up-B, which are pretty much his only decent options. F-Air from the ledge can also be punished by getting up close to him and shielding it or by crouch canceling the late hitbox. Otherwise, use your dash dance to avoid his F-Air and come back in with an attack once he lands (it has no landing hitbox). Punishing Up-B is difficult if he uses ledge invincibility properly, but he cannot act and is vulnerable once he is almost at the peak of his ascension even when he is frame perfect. You can meet him there with an aerial.

Read this to yourself each time you face off against any competent G&W. Having knowledge of those tips above will immediately give you a huge advantage over him, and this knowledge can spare you the trouble of having to figure out how to play against G&W on your own. Some people struggle to deal with him simply because they have no idea what to do when their aggressive playstyle that they use all the time no longer works. Many people get the impression that G&W is an extremely powerful character with tons of ridiculous and broken moves, but he still has very exploitable weaknesses that keep him from being top tier.

As for tips specific to Sonic, there's not very much I can say. However, the one thing that I know about Sonic is that he has the ability to Gatling Combo and Gatling Grab just like G&W can. Gatling Grab might actually prove to be a useful tool against a crouching G&W because, well... he can't very well crouch cancel a grab now, can he?

 

[JFyst]

Thank you to the person above, while I feel you are missing a lot of the options you have against sonic this read is definitely something useful, alas I am really lazy and don't feel like writing a guide to what u can do to us. Also match ups I'd like to talk about, Bowser,yoshi,SAMUS, Link, (Link isn't too high of a priority, I'm pretty sure I know the match-up fairly well. It's just I play an amazing link constantly, you might've saw him on aftershock "hero of time", but any specific ideas on the match-up might be helpful.)

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'd like to see Falcon or Ganon. They're really common characters and are both fun MUs for Sonic. You're sure to run into at least one of them in tournament as their usage stats are both in the top 5 (I think I saw this in the usage stats, although I'm certain for Ganon).

 

[JFyst]

We did falcon.

 

[GabPR]

Ty shockbound for that informative input, and now will shall we switching to Lucario!! Ganon wiil be qeued up for next week.

Edit. Just a reminder that a character can be repicked if adked by the majority, so dont be afraid to ask in following weeks.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'm not afraid to ask personally. I brought Falcon up because I recently got experience in tournament and thought I could share. Lucario is a mystery to me though.

 

[Luk]

Those blue balls!

 

[JFyst]

Was my char request entirely ignored? Anyways I'm fairly informed about this match-up my match-up knowledge, Comes from Cruz control, and secondary lucario.

This match-up seems difficult if you don't understand what lucario is doing. Lucario has three options in neutral for the most part, dash attack, down b canceled tilt, or projectile camp. Sonic has the speed to get around all of this, the down b cancel is hard but you have 12 frames to react to the fact he's going into it, so bait It out or react to it.

Never shield anything ever, if you get caught in shield, he can get in long block strings and cancel into grabs, which by the way charges his meter, roll away.

Space your bair's they can really **** lucario up.

 

[Star ☆]

I find Lucario fairly straight forward; Lucario's lacking approach options in neutral, as JFyst just covered, are easily punishable. I find just dash dancing patiently and waiting for the Lucario to whiff a dash attack or something similar is a very good option as you have the level of speed to be able to avoid any sort of combo that the Lucario tries to start. Spaced fairs and bairs, also covered by JFyst, are very good against Lucario as he doesn't have many attacks that can reach into the area that you would be attacking from.

I play a Lucario very regularly and I find this matchup very, very simple.

 

[GabPR]

Was my char request entirely ignored? Anyways I'm fairly informed about this match-up my match-up knowledge, Comes from Cruz control, and secondary lucario.

This match-up seems difficult if you don't understand what lucario is doing. Lucario has three options in neutral for the most part, dash attack, down b canceled tilt, or projectile camp. Sonic has the speed to get around all of this, the down b cancel is hard but you have 12 frames to react to the fact he's going into it, so bait It out or react to it.

Never shield anything ever, if you get caught in shield, he can get in long block strings and cancel into grabs, which by the way charges his meter, roll away.

Space your bair's they can really **** lucario up.

For some reason I am not familiar with I did not see it. No problem though, at the end of the week well just do another voting.

 

[GabPR]

Ok guys, almost close to switching! please comment on which characters you would like to see next.

 

[Vultron]

I request Samus or Ganondorf! I think both of these matchups are pretty engaging!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

How about Snake Gab? Hmm? Lol. Samus and Ganon are also good choices, Vultron! But what about Wario? i have no idea about that one.

 

[Vultron]

@ Avro-Arrow Wario is sheilding his side b and punishing punishing his fsmash lmao.

 

[JFyst]

I'd like to see what people know about samus or yoshi's I feel these are incredibly annoying. Also we should start writing what we think of the match-up, as in I think sonic - lucario is 55- 45 sonic.

 

[Mejai]

I'd like to see a discussion on Ganon, for some reason I have trouble against him even though my gut tells me Sonic holds the advantage.

For Lucario I agree it's probably 55:45.

 

[GabPR]

I would think Sonic would have the advantage of lucario... if Sonic didn't have some of the worse oos options in the game with the exclusion of nair oos. What makes Lucario even out the odds is his ability to keep pressuring Sonic if he nets a hit on shield.Not only that, Sonic is a decent combo weight for Lucario, which nets him the ability to possibly 0 to 60-70 in a blink of an eye (or 0 to death). Sonic has the advantage in the neutral thanks to his mobility and tools to quickly reposition one self when cornered, which makes Lucario have a hard time on landing a hit. When Lucario has aura though, he has the options of both up b or down b cancel to have more of a chance in neutral, but without aura he has a hard time catching Sonic. This is all mostly speculation though, I haven't had the chance to play any real top level Lucarios that use things such as aura cancel to extend damage.

 

[GabPR]

Ok guys, its Finally time do the character change, a good amount of people voted this week, with the top picks being Ganon and Samus both being tied with 3 votes a piece. Looking back in the comments, the first vote that was given was of Samus, so I will pick her as the matchup of the week.

 

[Vultron]

I have pretty decent knowledge of the Samus matchup since one of the people I play with the most is @ pizzacato !

For the most part of this matchup you're going to want to stay just out of Grab/Zair range. That's the safest range to be at since you can easily avoid and punish missiles and missed grabs. Missiles can be stopped with Nair because of how fragile they are.

Always look out for UpB OoS because that usually puts a stop to your pressure and allows Samus to escape.

Samus's recovery is pretty great, yet also pretty linear. If Samus is bomb jumping you can jump up and BAir her since her bombs are pretty frail. If Samus is going to Tether to the ledge, C-stick drop down, go a little behind her and Nair for a stage spike (If you're feeling super stylish and have the Stock to spare you can Dair from the ledge to get the spike as she is coming up).

I think this matchup is pretty fun and I love exploring new aspects of it. When I actually have free time I will post a longer write-up of dealing with Samus's aerials.

 

[pizzacato]

Hey guys I can help you with the matchup.
Vultron's on pretty on point.

Samus's recovery is pretty linear, but expect early upBs onto the stage without the grapple if your Samus opponent is smart.

If they know how to get missiles out quick with platform rotation missiles, the most important thing you need to know is that Samus is committed while shooting missiles. If you approach with WD-OoS, or nair since they're super fragile, the closer you get, that much more of a threat you become. In the event that no missile hit, Sonic now has stage control and do with it what you will. A smart samus will stop shooting missiles at close range.

More to come this week. Stay tunedddddddddddd

 

[Vultron]

Hey guys I can help you with the matchup.
Vultron's on pretty on point.

Samus's recovery is pretty linear, but expect early upBs onto the stage without the grapple if your Samus opponent is smart.

If they know how to get missiles out quick with platform rotation missiles, the most important thing you need to know is that Samus is committed while shooting missiles. If you approach with WD-OoS, or nair since they're super fragile, the closer you get, that much more of a threat you become. In the event that no missile hit, Sonic now has stage control and do with it what you will. A smart samus will stop shooting missiles at close range.

More to come this week. Stay tunedddddddddddd

Yooooo! Thanks for the extra advice!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Fancy seeing you here, pizzacato, I remember seeing you around the Samus boards back when I played her. All of this stuff sounds right to me. When you start a combo on Samus, try getting her in the air. She's really floaty and so she can have a hard time coming down on account of Sonic's speed. If Samus does grab ledge, stay back from the ledge or shield because she is probably going to do a rising fair/nair, or, if she's feeling frisky, a WD>dsmash (or even a charge shot, lol). It is my understanding that Sonic would have an easy time getting in, although I'm not well-versed in the MU at all.

@ Vultron @ pizzacato Who would you say wins neutral overall?

 

[Vultron]

Fancy seeing you here, pizzacato, I remember seeing you around the Samus boards back when I played her. All of this stuff sounds right to me. When you start a combo on Samus, try getting her in the air. She's really floaty and so she can have a hard time coming down on account of Sonic's speed. If Samus does grab ledge, stay back from the ledge or shield because she is probably going to do a rising fair/nair, or, if she's feeling frisky, a WD>dsmash (or even a charge shot, lol). It is my understanding that Sonic would have an easy time getting in, although I'm not well-versed in the MU at all.

@ Vultron @ pizzacato Who would you say wins neutral overall?

Honestly I feel that one character doesn't just straight up win. I feel that it depends on where each character is relative to the other. If Sonic is close, he has the upper hand whereas, if he were across the stage, he will lose the neutral.

 

[pizzacato]

I do believe Samus has a stronger punish game against Sonic, than Sonic does against Samus. I'd like to say well placed grabs and zairs are the win to neutral for Samus. But Sonic as stupid fast and can dashdance until you find an opening. STAY PATIENT. Also look out for a bomb camp on stage, I hear it's a **** thing to do and wins against Sonic 90% of the time.

Personally I think Samus wins the matchup 55-45, not by much but Sonic might have to win neutral more times than Samus needs to.

 

[Vultron]

I do believe Samus has a stronger punish game against Sonic, than Sonic does against Samus. I'd like to say well placed grabs and zairs are the win to neutral for Samus. But Sonic as stupid fast and can dashdance until you find an opening. STAY PATIENT. Also look out for a bomb camp on stage, I hear it's a **** thing to do and wins against Sonic 90% of the time.

Personally I think Samus wins the matchup 65-45, not by much but Sonic might have to win neutral more times than Samus needs to.

Ah, I forgot that bomb camping was a thing. Do Zair and Grab stay out too long to spot dodge? I feel like Sonic could just bait out one of the two and then punish super hard for it. Also, what makes Samus's punish game better than Sonic's?

And finally, 45 + 65 = 110

 

[pizzacato]

Lol I finger slip. fixed it tho.

And YES bait out my grab, and it's a free punish! Zair is safer, but again: the closer you are, the less effective it is. So just shield your way into my grill.

 

[Vultron]

What other approaches would you consider safe for Sonic?

 

[pizzacato]

Which one is it, downB or sideB, which ever goes through stuff.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

To my knowledge, neither really goes through stuff. They both have poor priority and hitboxes.

 

[Vultron]

DownB went under your missiles .