Sonic Matchup Discussion. General

[Motobug]

We should do Yoshi next, he's one of the hard matchups that we haven't covered yet.

Also, current list of characters done so far:
Fox
Marth
C.Falcon
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Sheik
GnW
Lucario
Samus
Ganon
Falco
Squirtle
WAAHrio
Snake
Bowser

 

[Vultron]

I have no Yoshi experience so I can't offer much on that, but I do remember people wanting our small dinosaur.

 

[Vultron]

Okay everyone, this week we are doing Yoshi!
To begin; Yoshi is an odd character and everyone says that he is a bad matchup, why a is it a bad matchup?

What's the neutral game like?

What do you think the best way of edgeguarding Yoshi?

 

[Lex__]

I think its an equaler match up now yoshi sucks more. Cant really input much into the MU except that sweetspot fair always knocks him out of DJ then it can be followed up with a backwards hitbox of side b to ez gimp him,

 

[Duum]

Watch out for yoshi's down b when approaching, it combos into itself. When yoshi starts his roll in the air, he has no hitbox, so be sure to hit him out of hit. He also loses his side b hitbox when turning so beat him then too

 

[Vultron]

It has been a week and not much Yoshi talk has been going on, do we need to extend it or move on?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'm not really sure about Yoshi. My Matchup experience is zero as Sonic against a good Yoshi. Most I've really had is in Melee against a local who's really good.

I'd have to say though that you've got to learn Yoshi's range on his djc approach and respect it. Threaten his space with a dash dance and go in to punish any lag he throws out. I don't think using spin attack and spin shot are very good against him as he can cc or parry easily, just like a spacie or Peach for example. Run-up shield can be a good mix-up as he probably won't resort to grab so much since it's a tether grab and therefore laggy and very committal. Weaving in and out is a pretty good strategy, although personally I prefer to play it safe against Yoshi overall, which I believe you can afford to do since you have such good movement. It might be a tedious match. I might be wrong. But that's just how I dealt with Yoshi in Melee, and it didn't work out so bad. Make sure you tech roll his fairs if he hits you while you're airborn. If he gets you in a tech situation he can get a huge conversion that way.

Edgeguarding Yoshi is weird. Bait out his jump and grab ledge, then punish from there and make sure when he lands on stage you don't lose stage control and let him get away for free. Invincible nairs and bairs are good offstage, and even upair might work since his armour might cancel the upwards knockback and hit him like what happens with Falco's shine. Or, ideally you'd be able to fair/dair spike him before he has an opportunity to whip out the good ol' double jump.

For our next matchup discussion, I'd like to discuss Rob personally. Super relevant character who I have zero experience playing against.

 

[MWEX]

Yoshi MU is simple, he can't really approach and can be baited out.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Is this thread dead now or something?

 

[Vultron]

No, it's just really slow.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Guys, does anyone out there have any interest in continuing this thread? N810 Star ☆ GabPR Karma! @Zenokidz @JFyst Solharath Luk Vultron . These threads used to be some of the most active and now they're like the Wolf boards. It's not even like we have an active Skype group from what I've heard, otherwise I'd have joined it. There're still a lot of matchups and metagame development we can do with this character and I think this thread and the video critiquing thread should be the most active.

To keep this post on subject, I'd like to ask anyone if they want to review the Fox Matchup since it's certainly one we can talk about for days or maybe talk about someone like Rob? I mean, I even asked DrinkingFood if he knew the matchup and he said nah.

 

[Star ☆]

I'll think of a more formulaic way of doing this. We need to have deeper community input and a structured approach to these matchup discussions. Especially since I'd like to update my guide with community feedback regarding matchups, if we set up a proper system for discussing matchups I can archive them in my guide and we can get a nice starting point for anyone that's struggling with a certain character.

I'll talk it over with the other Sonic mains and see what we can do.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

That sounds great! I love formulas :D (*ahem* econ major), and I love smash. Couldn't be any more perfect! And updating your guide with Sonic's place in the meta/matchup spread would make it pretty much the end-all-be-all of all Sonic guides. And matchup knowledge would also allow us to expand on theory for stage selection.

 

[Karma!]

You know, I honestly think this forum would be more active if there was a guideline to it. For example, if say, we decide to study into the Marth matchup, we take the matchup as a whole. So perhaps on the first day we look at things such as what stages to pick, ban, and counterpick against Marth, ect ect. Basically just take a portion of the matchup for every day of the week instead of just general discussion. I'm not sure how realistic that idea is, and I'd like to hear some feed back.

 

[Solharath]

I gave up on this thread quickly. Arbitrary dates and the like for matchups is good in theory, but in a developing metagame when there are certain playstyles to characters that many of us have never witnessed all trying to weigh in at once in a short amount of time... The board isn't entirely the most active thing on the internet. If we had someone who could export all discussion that we make on a character into it's own thread so if new tech or ideas can be discussed, we don't have to throw in an odd post on Page 27 about a matchup brought up on Page 12.

Encourage discussion on the active matchup, and there's enough characters in the game that we can revisit each character in full on a yearly basis, but have matchup exports on the page for someone who is having difficulty with a matchup readup on it, and then be able to easily ask their own questions.

 

[N810]

I would be on-board with this. I really want to be more active on Smashboards other than posting my videos. I feel like I have a well-rounded understanding of the cast based on my experience and what Sonic can and cannot do to them. If I can help other Sonic players then sign me up!

 

[Vultron]

Lol, well I actually forgot my password after a fresh start with Windows 10, hence my inactivity. If someone else wants to restructure it go ahead, I was really just trying to keep it alive for the sake of the Sonic forums in general.

 

[GabPR]

Hello again guys, been quite inactive for the past months, but I am back and want to revive this thread :D, to start off this week we will be looking at wolf!

As far as my perspective of the matchup it concerned I will start with the neutral game.

Neutral game

wolf has some pretty good zone control thanks to laser wavelands, this can make it a bit difficult to get in and requires good movement to go around them and punish. On top of having a quick back air that can wall out sonic if spaced properly. Most wolf these days also like to jump on top of people with nair double shine, which can lead to pretty big punishes if the hit is confirmed. Sonic 's grounded b movement shenanigans will be limited in this matchup, main movement will depend on fundementals and the focus will be to either go over wolf or through it with an aerial like nair, the last one being more difficult. Runnup shield is also posible as his momentum can bring him to wolf or power shield to turn the tables.

Punish game
Both have solid onstage punishes, wolf can confirm any of his moves to a really damaging combo that can end with a side b, that are really dangerous and can kill sonic early due to light weight. His edgeguards are also really threathening to Sonic when forced to use spring with his bair wall, dair meteor for spring and shine bair setups. Sonic's main punishgame plan is to put wolf in edgeguard situations and abuse his streanght in this area, mainly with upthrow chain grabs (if di is poor), side b grabs and kicks ( kicks at higher percent) And an up air confirm that can set up into a good ammount of stuff that will easilly get wolf offstage.

General thoughts.
Neutral game wise wolf needs to stop Sonic's movement with lasers and abusing his low end lag moves. Better punish game killwise. Sonic must not lose ground to wolf and maintain as much space as posible with his movement. Better punish game edgeguard wise.

Final verdict:

50:50

 

[N810]

Yes! I've been struggling with Wolf for so long now! I'll be back soon to put in my input on the match-up!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I have used Wolf, and I have used Sonic. But never have I used them against each other. Lol. Get ready for a very uninformed, crackpot rundown of the Sonic : Wolf MU!

I'd say Sonic has to be constantly applying pressure so that Wolf can't safely fire blasters, or at least make him think he can't fire blasters. This should be step one in fighting Wolf as any character of you ask me, unless you can sit back and put out more damage/maintain more control, etc. Sonic is fast, so we have a good outlook for dealing with lasers. The reason Wolf fires blasters is for stage control/force shielding/hit confirms, and while these three outcomes are good in general, I find that they're more effective against a character like Sonic who thrives on stage control (he loses IMO once you lose it), is weak in shield and obviously isn't good while getting juggled.

Fortunately, anything Wolf does other than that (mostly) we can avoid and punish on reaction. I've decided that I'm going to start valuing the potential of Sonic's defensive options more like somersault/spin charge away and I think this comes into play a lot here. Wolf's aerials are good and all, but he's not like Fox or Falco in the sense that he has an aerial with high priority and quick start up. He'll go for a fair maybe, but that has slow start up. Nair doesn't have a large hit box and going for dairs is hard to land on Sonic. Probably most have to watch out for retreating bairs, which are quick to come out/are harder to punish on whiff (fading out and better frame data and range). If you give them too much respect he can run back and set up some more lasers, which is obviously a problem. If he does start firing lasers, you can force mixups with your reaction to them but really they're not that good. Most Wolfs (would it still be wolves in this case?) fire short hop lasers so full hop dair can circumvent this unless he has a platform over his head. Then his defense his pretty strong :v.

does 2 would be punishing him on any one of these attacks he's forced to throw out (I say forced because against anyone dash dance camping, you have to use a move to avoid being hit). Optimally, we should be getting a grab at low percents since he's a spacie and CC shine can wreck anything else we do really. I'd go for dthrow since with good DI I'd assume he can escape it like Fox can. Although, Star ☆ does the weak fair into edge guard setup work on Wolf?

However, it's possible to wrack up percent other ways, and any way you can you take. Just please don't go around dash attacking or only shffling aerials xD. Edge guarding Wolf is pretty easy, except if he's going for Flash to ledge, but even then it has limited utility off stage (one effective angle for recovering purposes) and is super punishable if he lands on stage. It's at least 20 frames landing lag. Wolf ends up having to recover low a lot on account of being a fast faller. This means that, of course, grbabing ledge is super good. It also means that fair/dropzone nair/dair edgeguard, or even bair or jump out -> down b towards stage on top of his head is an instant kill. If you see him start up b at a point where he can't sweet spot ledge (be mindful he can ride the wall though) then you can use a cute fsmash, dsmash, or ftilt to finish him off. Stylin'.

So what happens if you get hit? Wolf's moves are really hard to explain in a post, since they often flow into each other depending on your DI/at which point in the move duration/hitbox-wise he hit you with. But I can give you a few tips. If he shffl nairs you, it can lead into a shine or nothing if he overshoots you. With some clever DI/SDI you can end up on the back of him and this opens up a punish opportunity for you. Always look out for when he drops a combo. It happens. Shine DI: at low percents hopefully you can CC grab or dsmash, but when you get worked out of that percent it's a good idea to DI away from Wolf. This'll make follow-ups harder and will maybe reset you to neutral, which sucks because he'll fire lasers but is obviously better than being combo'd. At higher percents, DI in maybe? Haven't been Wolfed before but it's not a good idea to set yourself up for a Flash kill. Maybe Sonic's floaty enough such that at higher percents even stuff like shine uair/fair/bair is really hard to connect. If he's hitting you offstage with shine, it might be possible to SDI through him and be sent on stage. Otherwise I'd recommend DIing away and avoiding the bair/tipper fair. Those are deadly. That's all I'm going to say for now I guess. Hopefully this helped someone.

 

[Star ☆]

Weak Fair > Blast Attack > Nair works on most fast fallers Avro-Arrow . It's most prevalent on Falcon but it does work on Wolf. He's a gfycat of it, not very optimal DI from the cpu and SDI is crazy but it still conveys the point well. You can still do it when they full DI away as well. Due to the cpu's SDI I couldn't land the nair sweetspot.

 

[N810]

IMO, I think Wolf is the hardest to fight in Spacie match-up. I've beaten good to great Flacos and Foxes but never a great Wolf. As said before, the pressure of short-hop laser and the Wolf-Flash are to me, the deadliest tools he has against Sonic. His shine is a great set-up for the Wolf-Flash and if you can't sweet-spot the ledge then the B-Air will wall you out nicely. As Sonic, I try not to waste a edge-guard or off stage game opportunity. He is still just a Spacie and the Homing Attack is your best shot on keeping him out. If you can force him to rely on the Up-B more than the Wolf-Flash then you can wall him out due to the Up-B failing to sweet spot. F-Tilt will do the trick. Otherwise, I don't know much combos that can work. I usually make it up as I go for Wolf because I'm trying to see what works and what doesn't. Hopefully after this topic is complete, I won't need to do that anymore.

 

[GabPR]

Ok guys, its time to change characters, our next character in the discussion will be DDD. I will post my thoughts on the MU during the week since im a bit busy preppin for finals.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Me too ^

Although, I know DDD either dies at less than 40% or he lives forever.

Try to get dthrow offstage and then fair meteor him.

Dash dance and wait till he throws out an ftilt or wait until he lands after fair camping.

N810 and Star are way more qualified than I am to talk about this MU.

 

[Luk]

Me too ^
Try to get dthrow offstage and then fair meteor him.

You think? I kind of get the feeling that DDD is one of the characters that this works worst on. His high vertical recovery mean that with even a half-decent meteor cancel, he'll come back most of the time. No?

 

[GabPR]

Imo down throw into fair should stop being a thing. People usually di it correctly and it just puts you in a disadvantage. There are better options out of down throw.

 

[N810]

I'll be working all day today but tomorrow morning I'll be able to write my thoughts on the MU.

 

[Star ☆]

This isn't specifically against D3, but on the topic of down throw fair, I usually prefer to do a down throw strong reverse hitbox bair. This sends the opponent at a disgusting diagonal angle with quite a lot of hitstun, even at low percents. It will gimp many characters with bad to average recoveries and/or high fall speed characters.

 

[GabPR]

Hello yet again guys, it seems to be getting harder and harder to keep this thread updated due to time constraints, but I am back from my trip to Florida and Im ready to give it another go! Thiis time I will leave the week pending and be used to vote and decide next week's matchup for yourself. Remember that the main point is to share our commulative matchup knowledge and help us improve our understanding on each matchup.

The matchup with the most votes gets picked to be discussed next week!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Atm I could go for a lot. Wario, Luigi, Ganon (even if it is easy, let's make sure we never lose to one ever), CF, or any spacie.

We need to get the ball rolling here.

Edit: GabPR thoughts on the DDD MU?

 

[Duum]

Have we done a falco or peach matchup? I struggle to get past lasers against Falco, and peach can be an impenetrable wall sometimes

 

[GabPR]

Have we done a falco or peach matchup? I struggle to get past lasers against Falco, and peach can be an impenetrable wall sometimes

Yes, but its ok if we repeat it again since its been a while since we have done any of them and there have been some changes in Sonic known tech and Matchup perceptions.

 

[GabPR]

Well, Even though there are really few votes I will proceed to chose falco as this weeks MU, based on current comments.
remember that you can share any kind of information regarding your own experience with the MU, videos of said MU, neutral, punish, etc.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from's Perspective (+3 has Sonic winning)

+3:
+2:

+1:
0:
-1:
-2:
-3:

?:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the unknown matchups?

This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Yeah, Marth being worse than Fox lmao, among other stuff. I'll come back later and talk about this. Also Snake and Oli are about even.

 

[Korrin]

Falcos nair beats out sonics neutral special and possibly his side special. I cant remember if it beats it only because i did it a while ago. I am still working on figuring out what else falco can do to keep sonic at bay. Besides of course his lasers and reflector.
EDIT: thought this was for smash 4 nvm

 

[Kulty]

Star once stated a few months ago that Sonic's worst MUs are(https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3h2tqn/amsaturdays_8_sonic_feat_star/). I honestly don't understand why G&W is even.

Also, I do mainand playa lot and I could say that this MU can be in Marth's favor, but that's not by much. While Marth has disjoints to keep Sonic away, Sonic's mobility and great mix-ups in his movement and approaches can really spell trouble for Marth if the latter mistimes his moves. Once Sonic gets in on Marth, it's so difficult for Marth to create space again and can combo him quite hard unless if you're not fast enough as Sonic. I feel that it should be -1 instead of -2. Put G&W in -2 since I feel this MU is a ton more frustrating than Marth.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

As far as Marth vs Sonic goes, it's a point of debate among the Sonic community, and I think that the -2 either came from the Marth community circle-jerking or the Sonics thinking very old-school about the match up. You're right about the fact that Sonic's mobility helps him punish anything Marth's got (dtilt is beat by fair when you're waiting for them to dtilt), and Sonic comboes him really hard. Marth's edge guards on Sonic are good, and his tech chasing is good too but the overall punish game is in Sonic's favour by a lot. I think the neutral varies by stage since on small stages Sonic can't run around a lot and Marth's sword range dominates small, tri-plat stages so he gets cornered easily. I think it's probably pretty close to even or maybe +1 for Sonic at high level, although personally I'm more comfortable with +/-0.

 

[Star ☆]

Avro summed it up pretty well. I'd say Sonic has the upper hand on flatter/larger stages, which contemporary stagelists seem to be favouring more and more. Overall likely a +1 for Sonic.

 

[Capt. NeckBeard]

Can some one explain the peach matchup to me? How does sonic deal with her?