Sonic Matchup Discussion. General

[Kei_Takaro]

I think Squirtle's neutral game is very interesting, in my observation they play more hit & run and play keepaway from Sonic as well as having more lasting stage presence.

Since Sonics are usually rushdown types, they might from time to time clash with Squirtle's Withdraw shenanigans and end up losing the trade due to Withdraws super armor + the free aerial when it connects.
Squirtle has one up against Sonic in terms of zoning, usually with well placed ground/air Bubble or with Fsmash reads

Some edgeguarding options are shutdown by Squirtle's recovery, but I believe players like Shanic77 have adjusted to do reverse Fair's against Squirtle's UpB or instead pursuing to punish with Dsmash. Having to risk it up front would often lead to a sweetspot waterfall (+12%) but it can end up spiking when well placed (you still trade with the waterfall though).

 

[JFyst]

I think this match up is 50-50, it's a wierd one so you should become familiar against the character but it's not excessively difficult. The turtle has slippery movement, he's kinda like luigi, if he had falcon's short hop. Watch out for his down tilt, Oos fair is a good response or roll away, spot dodge and shield grab will be punished, d-tilt can lead into a lot including kill moves, like Aqua jet(sweet spot side b) or up air-up b. Some thing about up b is because it is a multi hit, you can smash di in so that it misses the sweet spot. Always di out, if you get thrown off stage, and the squirtle comes after you, he's trying to take your jump with fair, wait for him to throw it out and recover low. Homing attack is ok in this match up but if you get read, up smash destroies that option, same with side b from ledge. Squirtle has a hard time killing sonic, it's also difficult for either character to get hit as mobile as they are. Back air is great in the match up it can hit squirtle before he gets ledge out of his up b, or you can jump behind him and hit him during his up b. I hate fountain and yoshi's in this match-up, squirtle has armor anytime he is inside of his shell, so these maps make it hardest to deal with because of their small space.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

A Squirtle player here. Watch out for dtilt and up tilt when he crosses up your shield. D tilt is frame 3, and safe on shield, while up tilt is frame 5 and catches a lot of aerials OoS. His tails intangible during of most of the strong hits of attacks. So bair, uair, dair, dtilt for both swings, ftilt all have an unhittable tail. With how mobile both characters are, the Squirtle should be going for hydro-stuff (grab, dsmash, up smash, etc) in neutral. Super rar/slingjump (basically when Squirtle rar's close to frame perfect, he sling really far across the stage) allows him to combo/threaten most of the stage.

Bubble cannot be cc'd. Oh, and if you really get tired of d tilt (bubble/dtilt/shellshift stuff/wavedash is most of squirtle's grounded neutral), you can asdi down the first hit at any percent. Watch out for Squirtle's gimp game, it is one of the best. Nair has a low angle, strong bair will beat all of your off stage stuff, water gun can interupt you out of spins I think, onstage bubble punishes any miss sweetspot. He doesn't get the 0 degree angle on aerial bubble unless he only hits with the first hit.

I can answer any question you have about this weird character. Oh, and its not super armor. Squirtle only has light armor now (Nair, crawl tilt, withdraw, forward smash may still have mefium actually).

 

[NyTR0]

Can we talk about Wafio next please? Like, this is legit the character that gives me the HARDEST time out of the whole cast.

 

[JFyst]

I would like to talk about yoshi , Ike, or bowser

 

[GabPR]

ill prob change it by tommorrow or the day after that, so keep on giving your suggestions on who shall be next!

 

[Kei_Takaro]

+1 Snake

I think a summary of netural/offstage analysis should be enough to finish Squirtle discussion if anyone would.
(Also me attempting to understand the 20SS terminology just made me more confused)

 

[GabPR]

I have decided that this week we will change to... Wario!

 

[NyTR0]

Killing a Wario can be a pain...

 

[JFyst]

I don't have much on this topic, i think this mu is fine, the biggest problem being his neutral b, His side b is hard to deal with, its toxic, but if you shield it, then wavedash in, its a free punish. I've yet to have problems with this mu, even though ive met my fair share of wario's.

 

[Star ☆]

Wario is fairly easy to bait. Just dash dance and stay out of the range of his f-air pokes and you should be fine. Go for grabs often and kill off the sides.

 

[Heero Yuy]

How does Sonic do against Falcon? (one of my candidates for secondary vs my least favorite MU as my main) I would imagine Sonic has the edge in the neutral but gets punished hard by Falcon. Idk, so I'd like everyone's input.

Edit: Oh my b if the discussion is meant to be about Wario atm.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Sonic should do okay against Wario, albeit being more cautious against his grounded and air Side-B

 

[Vultron]

Preaching to the choir but shield Side B. Wario has terrible range, but lingering hitboxes so he is easy to punish if you don't just rush in all the time. FTilt works wonders when you want to put him in a spot you like more. DTilt also stuffs a lot of his approaches. He also enjoys being hit by Up Airs a lot, so give him that. Over all since your movement will be insane compared to his, this matchup is an easy 60-40 for us.

Now that more than shield side b has posted. Let's change to a different matchup and resurrect this thread.

 

[Star ☆]

I saw that some people wanted to talk about Snake. I have lots of experience in this matchup so if you guys want to go with him for this week's matchup I can layout my thoughts.

 

[Vultron]

Yeah, let's just talk about Snake. What's the best way to edgeguard his up b? A spaced Bair?

 

[Luk]

My edge-guard on Snake is terrible but I have noticed that a painfully precise spacing of fair will spike without trade.

Otherwise yeah, I usually just try to let him go up past me and bair/nair him to try to take him off the side.

I feel like with Snakes recovery, more often than not I'm just trying to knock him off the top rather than sides/down.

 

[Star ☆]

Sonic one of few characters that can reliably challenge Cypher offstage. You guys have pretty much covered it but a spaced bair is your best option. You can also fair meteor him, one of few attacks that ignores the Cypher projectile's "armour". I generally try to hit him away enough so he's forced to recover with C4 then position myself so I can bair him again whilst he tries to drop the projectile.

 

[Vultron]

Sonic one of few characters that can reliably challenge Cypher offstage. You guys have pretty much covered it but a spaced bair is your best option. You can also fair meteor him, one of few attacks that ignores the Cypher projectile's "armour". I generally try to hit him away enough so he's forced to recover with C4 then position myself so I can bair him again whilst he tries to drop the projectile.

Fair really just powers through the cipher?

 

[JFyst]

You have to space it, bair is a better bet.

 

[Star ☆]

Fair really just powers through the cipher?

It you land the sweetspot, but yes, JFyst is correct; bair is a much safer and reliableoption.

 

[MWEX]

Okay, snake thread.

Snake is a character with lack of approach even with velocity momentum and movement increased: this should make edge guarding a cake walk.

That being said, Snake has 3 methods of recovery: C4 on self, Grenade hold, and the Cypher.

You want to keep these options in mind because to every option there is a counter option; i.e. RPS.

In general you want to drop a spring on him just so that it can condition him for what he is about to get hit by and that being said he usually would recover low; therefore condition snake to go lower since sonic edge guards are way better below stage - this is spoken from experience.

Cypher: The C4 recovery is usually consisted of 1-2 C4's being blown up on himself, Grenade is also an option, as well as the Cypher by itself - so your options are:

1. Spring: The Spring is first because of its versatility and its practicality - dropping one on snake is essentially dropping a shine spike.

2. Back Air into Stage: A Sonic edge guard since the days of brawl; this move has great utility otherwise as a kill option but it's sort of like Donkey Kong's Cargo throw: it is a mix up and can't really be reacted to if not conditioned.

3. Forward Air Sweet Spot Cover: This is simply just a spacing edge guard that can be seen as stylish, but also safe. When this character (Snake) is seen to be active on the Cypher, the slight disjoint on Forward Air is large enough to not take a trade; be cautious as it is a meteor.

4. Down Air Spike: Same reasoning as the Forward Air, but this time it has a spike and can't be recovered out of at high percents making this move just as good as Forward Air - not as common.

5. Footstool: If you can get there fast enough snake will be footstool'd and be pretty much dead, yet not that great of an option.

Neutral Game: I apologize to be the lame one about all of this but you have to play smart against a character like snake, so camping is highly recommended while I don't recommend going aggressive.

1. How to approach it: Snake is a character that is slow for a reason and you have to approach him very carefully if you're that kind of player, but if you're more flashy and hype about the game, I highly suggest reacting to a Grenade pull; this will get him stuck in his shield enabling a grab. Be careful of Up B OoS.

2. How to camp it: If Snake can camp, you can too. He will rely on things that will psyche you out of your defense, but every player eventually will come hungry for damage and you can bait them into your trap: platforms and opposite stage positioning are CRUCIAL for camping against snake since his range would only be through Grenade and Tranquilizer and those can be hard to react to if you're not watching him every second.

Punish Game: He is one of the heaviest characters that gets stuffed by combos so go crazy on him when you get the one start attack.

This is my wrap up on the Snake match up.

 

[Star ☆]

All fantastic options, but just be aware that Cypher straight up eats Spring once it's active; I find Sonic's specials in general to be less useful against Snake offstage compared to most characters for similar reasons.

 

[Vultron]

@ MWEX Wouldn't a DAir spike collide with the cipher?

 

[MWEX]

It connects, it's hard to do

 

[Vultron]

Any more input on the snake MU? Tomorrow I am hijacking the thread again and changing to a new character. Probably a character that isn't overly discussed but has been touched (Like Donkey Kong, or Bowser)

 

[Vultron]

Okay guys. Just a few more hours before I change the MU.

A few tips: Snake doesn't want to approach you, he wants to trap you so don't fall for it. You can do this by not letting him setup camp, if you see his proximity mine, and it's in your way just run up and shield. Your run speed will carry over some momentum and make your shield slide into the explosive, keeping you safe.

For the most part of this matchup you want to stay out of reach from where his FSmash would be, that way he doesn't have room to set up his traps.

Be careful when edge guarding Snake. If he recognizes that he will die while you come at him, don't be surprised when he let's go of his cypher and just spikes you down.

 

[Vultron]

Triple Post; YAYY!

Anyways, @ JFyst has been suggesting Bowser since week 4, and with the Bowser rebuffs in 3.6 full, I suppose it's time we talk about the Koopa King

Let's go!

 

[JFyst]

Tbh, I kinda got over bowser I get the MU now, unless someone else wants to talk about that MU, I'd rather talk about yoshi or meta knight.

 

[Vultron]

I think it's still a good matchup to talk about.

So let's get started!

What is the most optimal way to play against Bowser?

What tools does Sonic have that trump Bowser in the neutral game?

How can we edgeguard Bowser?

What are some good punishes on him?

How difficult do you think the matchup is?

 

[Luk]

I think it's still a good matchup to talk about.

So let's get started!

N.B. I haven't played very many bowsers. So take everything below with a grain of salt.

What is the most optimal way to play against Bowser?

Spin a lot. He can't crouch cancel grounded side-b without getting JC grabbed pretty consistently and baseball slide can push him far enough off stage that his recovery will be easily gmipable so... yeah side-b

What tools does Sonic have that trump Bowser in the neutral game?

See above. Additionally, bait 'n punish. His moves are mostly all slow enough and short-range enough that a simple dash in -> dash out -> dash in -> JC grab strategy can be weirdly devastating given how simple it is.

How can we edgeguard Bowser?

If he's far/low enough away that he's gotta go for the ledge I feel like I can usually hog the ledge and roll on stage before the hitbox reaches me while still keeping him from getting the ledge. If he could make it back on stage, I like to mix it up between:
1) fair meteor (rarely works and I should probably stop trying)
2) dair spike (still working on getting the timing/spacing of this right. Not really sure it's possible. Should probably stop trying)
3) hang from ledge -> drop -> DJ -> nair/bair/uair (most effective thing for me so far)
4) if (3) was ended with L-canceled uair sometimes I get a followup of -> turn-around -> up-tilt or another SH u-air into more u-airs

What are some good punishes on him?

Honestly JC grab is just the bees knees. Bowser is so juicy fun to combo that I go for the grab every chance I get just because it leads into such great comboable situations.

How difficult do you think the matchup is?

In case you haven't figured it out, this is one of my favorite matchups. I approach Bowser like a DDD with crappier recovery, no projectiles, and some armor to watch out for.

Edit: Comments on edge-guard options and a missing Oxford comma

 

[Motobug]

OK, so Bowser is a thing.

He's an...interesting beast. In 3.5, he had a **** ton of armor that basically killed us (even Odds said so in his AMA post). But now in 3.6, all of his armor has either been reduced or taken away completely. What does that mean for us?

bowser is kill

But seriously, there' no way for him to get out of combos now other than with an almost frame perfect Nair or a lucky Up-B. Sure, he may be smaller, but he's still one of the biggest characters in the game. His bleh recovery doesn't help things either, which can be gimped easily with bair/fair. He does still have some good moves to keep Sonic out like Fair, but they're still super slow. His only keep out is dtilt, but that only covers in front of him.

TLDR Get in on Bow wow and he's dead

Edit: Bow wow edgeguard http://puu.sh/jJqDz/4ca2e4eb08.png

 

[Star ☆]

Whist I haven't fought any good Bowsers in 3.6 Beta or 3.6 Full I can offer some of my experience regarding the matchup in a 3.5 environment.

Bowser crouch cancels the everlasting hell out of the majority of Sonic's moves so its important to space them well to avoid being countered by Bowser's wider options (Up b, down tilt, forward tilt and now Down Smash in 3.6) Spin moves are very dangerous because of this so make sure you only use them when necessary.

What you should be going for, primarily, is grabs. Sonic will get heaps of a grab against Bowser as you can link aerials very reliably, straight raw or out of Blast Attack. Speaking of Blast Attack, both this move and Homing Attack can link into itself many, many times against Bowser due to his size and this allows Sonic to carry the koopa right to the top of the screen, leading into easy uair kills, its super funny to watch and really easy to do.

Be very careful when recovering or you'll get a faceful of Bowser bair or Down Smash at the ledge, I like to space bairs out of a b reversed Spring.

 

[Vultron]

Okay, so Bowser had all the tools to edgeguard us, except for above (unless it has platforms at the edges like Wario Ware)

Most of his moves straight up beat ours, so don't challenge him on stuff.

Blast Attack and Homing Attack are able to be linked multiple times, good for carrying him in the air.

Bowsers best option is UpB OoS, and it can really hurt.

And grab makes Bowser hurt.

 

[Lex__]

Dang somehow missed the snake one, only really wanted to add one point to it, You can shield slide VERY safely into snakes mines, probably one of the only character that can do it then act out very fast by jumping out of shield.



I have never versed a bowser before, so I cant actually input anything on this matchup, but I assume like most heavy/big characters nair to pivot grab is very good on him to start combos, not sure if anyone has shown a video on this yet, but ill post one with an edit, this works on ALOT of characters and is a very good way to start combos even on shield.

Up air combos are very easy to do and start killing with a falling up air on ground at around 70% on ps2.

Edit: seems like nair grab doesnt require a pivot for bowser, because hes lighter then I expected rules still apply I guess.

 

[MWEX]

Bowser thread? Bowser Thread.

Bowser is one of the easiest MU's for Sonic in P:M, don't fret as he is more worried about you than you are of him.

That being said, Bowser is one of the easiest to edge guard in P:M.

In general you want to drop a spring on him just so that it can condition him for what he is about to get hit by and that being said he usually would recover low; therefore condition Bowser to go lower since sonic edge guards are way better below stage - this is spoken from experience. That being said, go nuts on Bowser!

Edgeguarding - Sonic's edge guards are incredible against Bowser, this list is similar to the Snake MU:
1. Spring: The Spring is first because of its versatility and its practicality - dropping one on Bowser is essentially dropping a shine spike. Keep in mind, this has to be done before the Up B.
2. Back Air: A Sonic edge guard since the days of brawl; this move is just Bowser's demise.

3. Forward Air Sweet Spot Cover: This is one of the easier edge guards that will usually send him out, but if it sends him down, that's better.

4. Down Air Spike: Same reasoning as the Forward Air, but this time it has a spike and can't be recovered out of at all making this move better than Forward Air - use it a lot out of U-Throw.

5. Hold Ledge: Reduces a lot of risk.

Neutral Game: I apologize to be the lame one about all of this but you have to play smart against a character like snake, so camping is highly recommended while I don't recommend going aggressive:

1. How to approach it: Bowser is a character that is a lot faster than Melee and you can approach him very carefully or aggressively, you tend to have more leeway in the match-up, but if you're more flashy and hype type, go for combos. Be careful of Up B OoS as Bowsers tend to use it a lot more as an approach.

2. How to camp it: If Bowser can camp you out, you shouldn't worry as he is very large so one whiff means the stock usually. He will rely on things that will psyche you out of your defense, but every player eventually will come hungry for damage - Bowser is now faster than ever, but considering he is fighting Sonic, it is damn near impossible for an approach to miss on Sonic's behalf.

Punish Game: He is one of the heaviest characters that gets stuffed by combos so go crazy on him when you get the one start attack. He is also one of the least mobile, don't let the wavelands fool you. He is the largest character with the largest hurtbox so you can approach him more often then not.
U-throw to D-Air is amazing as a kill set up as it starts killing around 50%

This is my wrap up on the Bowser match up.

 

[MWEX]

My wrap up threads can be used as templates for all the Match ups btw

 

[Vultron]

My wrap up threads can be used as templates for all the Match ups btw

I can tell! You still have Snake in the title of one of your topics.

Personally, I find it better to ask questions/ question myself to incite more critical thinking.

 

[MWEX]

fixed it now

 

[Vultron]

Let's get your final thoughts on Bowser! I'm changing the thread tomorrow morning. Who would you like to discuss?