Sonic Matchup Discussion. General

[Vultron]

Mario is a good one: it can be tough if you don't understand the MU. There are times where you'll want to go in but can't because you have to wait your turn. I think Mario is a great idea.

Yeah, Mario likes to give me some trouble. I don't play against Mario too often.

On a different note, GabPR is there any way you could post an organized combination/tl;dr of everyone's thoughts and "data" in your OP or reserved post? If you need someone to do it, I can write it in a text file and send it to you.

 

[Vultron]

Before we switch;

What are some default Falcon combos that he can use? What can I do to escape them?

What is a good move to contest Falcon Kick?

Raptor boost?

Best way to DI a knee when you know you can't escape?

I have too many questions..

 

[Duum]

Personally I would love to talk about Donkey Kong. He destroys me everytime I play.

As for falcon, whenever he recovers, you can use homing attack to punish him or even gimp him. While he's off the edge stay close to him and homing attack will beat out just about anything he does

 

[GabPR]

Personally I would love to talk about Donkey Kong. He destroys me everytime I play.

As for falcon, whenever he recovers, you can use homing attack to punish him or even gimp him. While he's off the edge stay close to him and homing attack will beat out just about anything he does

While a decent method, im more inclined to edgehog him and take advantage of invincibility frames. If he up b's into the stage, you can either short hop in front of him and bair him, or waveland into fsmash/dsmash/grab. Its a matter of knowing the timing to grab the ledge, identifying when he wants to grab the ledge or go on stage and practicing the above mentioned, overall a free edge guard. Same method applies to other characters with similar recoveries such as sheik or ganon.

Before we switch;

What are some default Falcon combos that he can use? What can I do to escape them?

What is a good move to contest Falcon Kick?

Raptor boost?

Best way to DI a knee when you know you can't escape?

I have too many questions..

Usually Falcons tend to nair into grabs at low percents, which you should be DIng down and away most of the time if you ever get caught(never di up against falcon exept if he knees you at posible killing percent [pray while youa re at it], which you want to di up and inward to the stage, otherwise you are asking for a 0 to death)
you don't need to contest falcon kick or raptor boost, with just dodging or shielding them you have enough time to wave dash and go for the punish.

 

[GabPR]

Sup guys, today we will be moving on to our next character: Mario.

Somethings to note, thanks to feedback from some of you, I have decided to change some things regarding the thread. This are the following changes:

• A character will not be switched for a minimum of 1 week, even if the thread has little activity. The exception to this is that the majority want a character switch early.
• Before the end of the week, I will ask which characters you would like to discuss next, and will proceed to pick the majority's choice.
• Characters that have been already been talked about can be picked again if the majority of people who ask for it, but they will not be talked about 2 weeks in a row, this is to allow more variety in terms of other matchups.

I hope to recieve more feedback from you regarding this thread, and I hope in the long run this will become helpfull to people in the futre looking for advice. @ Vultron I would be glad if you could gather the info talked about, it would be very useful for info.

 

[Vultron]

-snip-

I hope to recieve more feedback from you regarding this thread, and I hope in the long run this will become helpfull to people in the futre looking for advice. @ Vultron I would be glad if you could gather the info talked about, it would be very useful for info.

Okay, I will begin to compile all the advice given and I can just PM it to you, already formatted and ready to be publicized! Also, thanks for listening to everyone's ideas!

Sup guys, today we will be moving on to our next character: Mario.

So for Mario, I feel that he is beyond way too safe for use. I am pretty sure he was designed this way so that he could be an all around character with no true specialization (which also happens to occur in all Mario games that aren't focusing on just him). So what can we do to defeat this somehow still livin' mascot?

Well, first we need to discuss what Sonic can do to Mario that will make him look way too slow. Second, what can we do to avoid him making us look like a Goomba waiting to be stomped on. So here are some things to look at:

• What moves can Sonic use best in the neutral?
• What moves can Sonic use to stuff Mario's recovery?
• What common approaches do we need to look out for, and what can we do against them?

This is probably a good way to start off the week with pre imposed questions so conversations actually occur, instead of a collection of two cents.

 

[Luk]

• What moves can Sonic use best in the neutral?
• What moves can Sonic use to stuff Mario's recovery?
• What common approaches do we need to look out for, and what can we do against them?

1) I honestly can't think of any. That fireball just walls me out like nobodies business. My neutral game is terrible though so looking forward to hearing options from my betters on this one. I've heard that running in with a SH Nair can chew through the fireballs and be a good approach.

2) Personally, I love jumping out after him and attempting a sweet spot fair to spike him. If he capes me while trying to gain horizontal distance I'll try to DJ Bair him for it before returning to ledge. Doesn't always work out but so dang fun.

3) I've only played a few good Marios but one approach I've seen a lot is a jumping fireball followed by a dash in. Trying to avoid the fireball while watching out for his dashing slide or a SH Fair makes it tough to play a bait 'n punish game. Maybe SH Nair again to try and eat the fireball?

Honestly, expressing my opinions has just clarified for me how little I know about character specific MUs so thanks a bunch @ GabPR for starting this thread. I expect I'll learn quite a bit from it.

 

[GabPR]

1) I honestly can't think of any. That fireball just walls me out like nobodies business. My neutral game is terrible though so looking forward to hearing options from my betters on this one. I've heard that running in with a SH Nair can chew through the fireballs and be a good approach.

2) Personally, I love jumping out after him and attempting a sweet spot fair to spike him. If he capes me while trying to gain horizontal distance I'll try to DJ Bair him for it before returning to ledge. Doesn't always work out but so dang fun.

3) I've only played a few good Marios but one approach I've seen a lot is a jumping fireball followed by a dash in. Trying to avoid the fireball while watching out for his dashing slide or a SH Fair makes it tough to play a bait 'n punish game. Maybe SH Nair again to try and eat the fireball?

Honestly, expressing my opinions has just clarified for me how little I know about character specific MUs so thanks a bunch @ for starting this thread. I expect I'll learn quite a bit from it.

Before I start talking about how to deal with fireballs, it is probably better to first know how mario's fireballs work. In 3.5, Mario has a bit more end lag after his fireballs, which makes it so he can only fire 1 at a time with a full hop, contrary to 3.0 where he had less endlag. Therefor, when mario throws his fireball, he is rather vulnerable for a short time after he launches it.This is mostly why a good mario will opt for throwing fireballs at a longer range, so that they have enough time to touch ground, jump and do another fire ball, or follow up on their first one. What makes the ilusion that the move is safe, is that most players opt to shield it, retreat or go around it.

As Sonic, if you can power shield fireballs then thats pretty good, but chances of getting all powershields are slim. There are ways to counter a Mario who fireballs a lot besides powershielding:
[LIST]
[*]Running under fireballs - If mario does a fireball while high up in the air you can run under the fireball before it hits the ground with your speed. If you are too far away then you can wait after the first bounce to go under it.
[*]Blast attack - Its assured to hit the fireball and with low recovery time it you can act out of it quick.
[*]Nairing through - With the nerf on nain's active frames it is harder to go time it, but it can still be effective.
[*]Max speed run and shield - this one might be harder to explain... The thing with Sonic is that, when you are running at your full speed and shield, Sonic slides while on shield foward rather far and it also extends his grab range. If mario tries a short hop fireball and you shield it close to him at max speed, the distance covered will allow you to either grab him if he is close enough or short hop and aerial (nair or uair being his fastest oos) or blast attack. You should avoid this if Mario has thrown 2 fireballs in a row.
[*]Go over it - this is only when mario attempts a short hop fireball. You have the option of going above him and dair.
[/LIST]
These are the ones I could think of atm and they some are situational. There are sure to be more depending on the situation.

 

[DrugsM2]

Running power shields out of DD = GG Mario, and any other projectile for that matter

I set my X button to shield so that at any given moment i can dash into run full run at the projectile and tap x, you slide forward while power shielding it and then can continue on your merry way of punishing the hell out of the guy spamming projectiles on you

To me this is easy enough and i can see myself getting good at it that ive implimented it as a core part of any disjoint wall or projectile characters. The reason for disjoint wall is if they jump you can pressure by running under them with power shield and then punishing the shield lag with sh aerial.

 

[GabPR]

All right guys, 2 days left to change, its time to sup up all remaining questions regarding Mario and in the meantime mention which character would you like to see next? (It can be a character that has already been touched if it does not go 2 weeks in a row)

 

[Luk]

All right guys, 2 days left to change, its time to sup up all remaining questions regarding Mario and in the meantime mention which character would you like to see next? (It can be a character that has already been touched if it does not go 2 weeks in a row)

I dunno if it's just the AI or what, but the Luigi bot has been destroying me. I've only played 1 Luigi human but it's that human's best character against my Sonic so I'm beginning to think it's just an awkward MU for Sonic, or else I just don't know how to handle it. So, my vote:

 

[Vultron]

What is the best way to gimp a Mario that is recovering low, but will be able to get back on stage without using the ledge? Is there a move that will stop Mario's UpB?

 

[Sparky15]

All right guys, 2 days left to change, its time to sup up all remaining questions regarding Mario and in the meantime mention which character would you like to see next? (It can be a character that has already been touched if it does not go 2 weeks in a row)

Just to get a good idea of how to escape Mario's combos if a mid-air jump or Spring won't be effective, how should I DI his combos, especially his f-air, too?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

@ Vultron There's nothing really you can do: If he's not going for ledge, and he'll come out in front of you, maybe a shield grab, but there aren't really many options.

Mario definitely isn't as much of a problem now: I had trouble with the MU before because of the fireballs, but now it's a lot simpler to get in. Outside of fireballs, Mario isn't troublesome at all.

 

[Luk]

What is the best way to gimp a Mario that is recovering low, but will be able to get back on stage without using the ledge? Is there a move that will stop Mario's UpB?

One sexy method I've only been able to pull off once or twice is to moonwalk SH off the ledge (such that you're facing the stage) and fair spike him from behind. Since you're above and behind, his up air hitboxes aren't a problem. Getting the spacing right is stupid hard though and I'm sure it's escapable. Still, looks super cool if you can pull it off and easy to get back afterwards.

 

[Sparky15]

One sexy method I've only been able to pull off once or twice is to moonwalk SH off the ledge (such that you're facing the stage) and fair spike him from behind. Since you're above and behind, his up air hitboxes aren't a problem. Getting the spacing right is stupid hard though and I'm sure it's escapable. Still, looks super cool if you can pull it off and easy to get back afterwards.

Lol I've ben practicing on this on a few characters boasting predictable recoveries. Should be an effective edgeguard technique if mastered, probably. I'll try it if I can attend Battlefield II this week.

 

[Vultron]

One sexy method I've only been able to pull off once or twice is to moonwalk SH off the ledge (such that you're facing the stage) and fair spike him from behind. Since you're above and behind, his up air hitboxes aren't a problem. Getting the spacing right is stupid hard though and I'm sure it's escapable. Still, looks super cool if you can pull it off and easy to get back afterwards.

Beautiful, tons of disrespect, and a meteor to kill.

@ Vultron There's nothing really you can do: If he's not going for ledge, and he'll come out in front of you, maybe a shield grab, but there aren't really many options.

Mario definitely isn't as much of a problem now: I had trouble with the MU before because of the fireballs, but now it's a lot simpler to get in. Outside of fireballs, Mario isn't troublesome at all.

My problem with Mario is that a lot of his moves are still really safe. So a decent Mario will always have hitboxes out with little time in between to punish.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I would like to see Charizard come up next for a character. Or Marth. They're really similar tbh. My brother was playing Charizard against me recently and took about 8 games without me winning one. Granted, they were close, but I felt like it was a really bad MU for Sonic.

 

[GabPR]

Beautiful, tons of disrespect, and a meteor to kill.



My problem with Mario is that a lot of his moves are still really safe. So a decent Mario will always have hitboxes out with little time in between to punish.

Sweetspot bair beats mostly everything mario has. Another good way to edgeguard Mario is to simply grab the ledge and simply let go and bair, nair or if your feeling gutsy/creative quicly homing or side b(and cancel it early). Even if he does up b early he cant hit you with your ledge invincibility(considering you let go quick enough. Dont be afraid to do this since your vertical recovery has great range. Abuse that with all matchups.

 

[Vultron]

Won't the hitbox on Mario's UpB just power through Homing Attack though?

 

[GabPR]

Won't the hitbox on Mario's UpB just power through Homing Attack though?

The optiins I have mentioned are considering you are using the ledge invincibility, but considering the startup of the move it may wear out before it goes, you are right on that one.

 

[GabPR]

Well guys its time for another change in matchup, next up, Green Mario! (Luigi). Discuss:

• Neutral
• Approach
• Punish
• Struggles
• Most effective moves
• Share MU knowledge
• etc.

 

[Sparky15]

Not sure if some of you are aware, but Sonic's down-throw can do well on Luigi and other floaty characters. On Luigi, if he doesn't DI too far away from you, Sonic can chaingrab Luigi off of d-throw from 0% to possibly around 120%. And a more reliably effective combo is d-throw to meteor smash f-air. That can also work from 0% to 120%. Maybe higher, since I was practicing on a Lvl 9 CPU Luigi that didn't seem like he was using DI. Hole this helps for Luigi and other floaties. :/

 

[Zenokidz]

I tend to be pretty careful when try to approach luigi. His options and stage coverage with his wavedash are immense. I try to find the area right outside of his wavedash range and bait out something to punish. I also try to keep my combo game short on him due to the fact that he can Nair out of this so easily.

 

[GabPR]

Imo Bair is your Holy mary in this matchup.

 

[Zenokidz]

Imo Bair is your Holy mary in this matchup.

It has defiantly saved me from ceartin death situations in this match up. It also works wonders if it trades and gives you a gimp situation.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Unfortunately I have nothing to say about this matchup, but maybe I can get some practice with a Luigi I know this weekend.

 

[GabPR]

Down b moves in this matchup has to be more limited. Luigi down b can trade or beat out spindash, not to mention his high priority aerials. Edge guarding him should b a breeze though, if he does not have misfire that is.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Down b moves in this matchup has to be more limited. Luigi down b can trade or beat out spindash, not to mention his high priority aerials. Edge guarding him should b a breeze though, if he does not have misfire that is.

I agree with this. A general rule of thumb is that it is a bad idea to trade with Luigi; he'll probably use dsmash alot to beat out spindash because it comes out quickly and hits strong. And the edgeguarding really should be free. And when I play against the weegee, I'll post my thoughts about the matchup on this thread.

 

[GabPR]

Hello guys, switch day is drawing near. Tell me whitch character would you like to see next? One that has yet to be talked about or return to a character we have already touched? meanwhile, take this opportunity to wrap things up with Weegee in the meantime.

 

[JFyst]

So I play against Blea_Gelo every so often, so here what i got whenever I play him, Nair is a ***** to deal with, Nair says "Don't combo me" A hit and run strat here is pretty effective, no matter how bad you want it, don't overextend, keep yourself safe, his aerials have high priority so they trade, or straight up beat our follow ups .

If they are off stage grab ledge. The pattern of their recovery is this, Side b back near the stage (if you grab ledge they'll go below) they will then down b, this is very deceptive because of how high the down b goes, he will have is double jump left and use it, a good Luigi saves their jump. even if they didn't have the jump, the up b can still save them from that position, but all we have to do is as sonic, drop from ledge in between the down b and the follow up and Nair, quickly grab ledge again and that could be the stock.

This match-up has us respecting Luigi a lot due to his down b beating any of our spins. He can combo from throws into dair and an offstage back air can take early stocks. If you bait out a down b, don't immediately punish, bait out a Nair and then punish.

 

[GabPR]

New week, new matchup! The new Challanger is... PEACH! Now imo this is one of Sonics trickier matchups, so for me it will be interesting to see everyone's opinions in this one.

 

[Duum]

In my opinion, Peach is the exemplary character that shows why bait and punish is a goto strat for Sonic. Her moves out right beat most of our moves.

Be very careful when down-b and side-b, as her crouch cancel down smash ruins us. I usually try to bait out a dsmash and come in with a shffled attack, usually nair, or sometimes i punish with a blast attack. Once they learn to respect your air game, feel free to be more liberal with the use of your specials.

Anyone have any idea on how to edge guard her? If she floats, i usually try to pressure her wit ha homing attack, but sometimes, she's way to high or far to follow up.

 

[Zenokidz]

I tend to just try an Nair her out of her up b once shes decending from atop of the level. I think we have to rely on being more patient than the peach in order to get a good gimp situation going. Especially if shes using her float to bait you off the ledge.

 

[Vultron]

If I find myself in a Down Smash. How do I handle it? Because for the most part I just want to push the guy playing Peach out of his chair!

 

[GabPR]

dont... crouchcancel. And upwards if im correct

 

[DrugsM2]

I might approach peach in a really different way then most of you guys and this is only based off friendlies but well see.

The main things i see as problems for sonic are: FC nair, FC dair, FC bair, Turnips, and ofcourse dsmash

So basically side-b is out of the question in this MU it just doesent work in any way shape or form from what ive seen, just to get that out of the way.

Float cancelling in general is an issue for sonic because his neutral relies heavily on punishing whiffs, peach essentially has no whiffs so how do we punish? Honestly, this is the part i cant answer lol

FC nairs are fast, very fast. Sonic has a huge problem dealing with constant hitboxes which is exactly what that provides peach and if she has a turnip in hand just forget about it lol. From my experience youre just gonna get hit by these once in awhile, they dont have alot of range to them though so you SHOULD be able to easily avoid them, should being the keyword.

FC dair is another move that allows peach to just have constant hitboxes out, this all depends on the height shes doing the dairs at though. If peach is doing them low then you can go over her head with a fair forcing a tech and then grabbing from that. If peach goes higher ive found that sonic can actually do a side-b underneath the dairs and JC into a bair, this was before i learned how to do a running power shield though which is much safer, i do that by running at the dair (Must hit full run so 11 frames after dash is input) you full press shield and then as youre going through the dair hitboxes just tap the direction you were moving on both sticks and youll make it behind her no problem, then just jump out of shield and bair (Or if you stop early wait in shield and SH nair as the dair ends)

FC bair is a wall but its not disjointed by a ton so if you space out fair/bair you should be fine

Turnips are fun, i LOVE turnips and any item MU for sonic honestly because sonic is sooooo fast that he can just catch all of these items there throwing (Thank you wavedash catching!) and using that incredible speed plus item in hand can AGT into an aerial to approach relatively well on peach. Theres alot of crazy stuff sonic can do with items like side-b and down-b stuff using AGT but i havent tested any of that only had the idea so far

Now the last and final wall standing in the way this MU, Dsmash, the world destroyer. this to me isnt even the worst thing in the MU especially compared to float cancels, I literally just SH fair ontop of her head and punish after it lands, in no way should you ever be getting caught by this when youre next to her unless she has frame advantage and even then sonics floaty hell only take like 24% max, but if you are next to her this move has a 5 frame start up and if youre within range for dsmash you should be in range to Jab or boostgrab and those moves a 2 and 3 frames respectively
and if worst comes to worst our dsmash when spaced clanks and cancels hers

thats about all i got for peach, uair is a god send vs floaties is all i have to say

 

[Vultron]

I also find myself using fair meteors a lot more than usual against Peach

 

[GabPR]

Sup guys, today we will be switching to none other than Sheik! Discuss.

 

[DrugsM2]

I absolutely have no experience vs sheiks, no one seems to play her on netplay and those who do are melee vets the issues i came up with those sheiks was

1. I was not uste getting grabbed more often then i was grabbing them and let alone honestly getting grabbed at all lol, sonics so fast and boost grabs so fast that i rarely find myself ever getting grabbed besides vs sheik, even marths dont give me the trouble sheik does.

2. Dash attack wrecked me but i think its cause im not good at reacting with crouch cancels yet.

3. Ftilt, uair, and bair are.... insane vs sonic