Sonic Matchup Discussion. General

[GabPR]

Sup guys, we are up for another change, which character would you like to see next?

 

[Vultron]

If I recall correctly, there were requests for Ganondorf?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Have we done Marth? Seems to be an MU a lot of Sonics dislike, and one you (Gab) seem to know something we don't. And @ Vultron , I believe there were requests for Ganon as well. However, that MU is easy IMO.

 

[Vultron]

Have we done Marth? Seems to be an MU a lot of Sonics dislike, and one you (Gab) seem to know something we don't. And @ Vultron , I believe there were requests for Ganon as well. However, that MU is easy IMO.

Marth was week 3, that's one of the few that I actually compiled all of the tips for (which I will do the rest when university finals are over!)

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Okay, my bad. I know that struggle though, I just escaped! Good luck!

 

[JFyst]

So I'm down for bowser, yoshi, and I'll accept Ganon.

 

[GabPR]

So we are now going to our next rotation featuring Ganon! Just a reminder, we can go back to discussing characters we previously discussed if people wish to do it. That said once I have some time I will post my own thoughts on this matchup and, aditionally, I would like to share some edgeguarding tips that applies to all characters. Hopefully Ill have my laptop fixed this week and I will start recording again for a guide ill dedicate solely to edgeguarding and recovery.

 

[Luk]

So we are now going to our next rotation featuring Ganon! Just a reminder, we can go back to discussing characters we previously discussed if people wish to do it. That said once I have some time I will post my own thoughts on this matchup and, aditionally, I would like to share some edgeguarding tips that applies to all characters. Hopefully Ill have my laptop fixed this week and I will start recording again for a guide ill dedicate solely to edgeguarding and recovery.

I very much look forward to it. My edge-guarding game is extremely linear/one-track at this point. And with Sonic's recovery I feel like the extent to which he can go deep means that he has stupid amounts of edge-guarding/off-stage chasing options.

Back on topic: I don't play too many Ganon's but he kind of gives me a similar vibe to Marth. Mostly in that you just don't want to get hit as he can put the pain on very quickly. The lag on a lot of his moves seems to definitely favor a more bait-'n-punish style of attack.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Xoriff is right. Baiting and punishing Ganondorf is really the only way to go because you have to be sure not to run into anything. That said, both baiting and punishing Ganondorf is extremely easy, especially on large stages.

 

[JFyst]

Ban both yoshi's and wario ware on these stages it feel hopeless hi huge hitboxes will cover many options, shild a lot, Ganon has no effective way to pressure shield. If he's off stage grab ledge , both side b and up b have decent endlag. Bait and punish.

 

[Luk]

Just played a pretty good Ganon last night. One thing I've noticed is that he seems much easier to gimp with a fair than other characters. That nice slow rising up-b is super-easy to space/time as long as you make sure to get well above him so that he doesn't catch you with it.

 

[GabPR]

Tbh I believe fair gimps are really innefective vs most characters unless they hace thrash vertical recovery or they are really high percent.

 

[Star ☆]

Go to stages like PS2, Smashville and Yoshi's Island; you need the flat space to run around and bait out thing from the Ganon but the platform(s) allow you to gain that extra edge and give new approach options as you gain more benefit out of them than the Ganon does. FD is somewhat okay but just watch out for his SHFFL aerials.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I feel like the stages don't really matter. He doesn't hold the advantage anywhere, but PS2 is probably the best. Norfair, skyworld, and DP would be good too. I love Yoshi's Island, but I think Ganon would like the platforms for Uairs. But I see your point. Probably stay away from Lylat in this MU too, although I've never played against Ganons on obscure stages.

@ GabPR Sure, fair gimps aren't like Falco's dairs, but I think it's good even if you don't get the meteor smash, as long as you get the sweetspot or can follow up with a jump to lead into another fair (almost like a ken combo). In this case, even if you don't get the spike again, they're probably far enough off stage such that they'll die. Of course, Sonic also has dair, nair (even sourspot on bad recoveries is useful), bair, and HA. I've even started using down b on opponents. Jump by them, then come down over top of an opponent recovering low, and push them down a bit while interrupting their recovery. It's awesome. Especially since right after you hit them you can jump out of it and grab ledge, putting them into an even worse position.

 

[Nevermind]

This matchup is naturally a bit more complex than "bait move => punish move." The most threatening tool that Ganon has in neutral is N-Air, due to its lack of endlag and your inability to challenge its hitboxes (they aren't great, but yours are worse). Ganon can use this to eat up space relatively safely and put you in a position where you lose the option to dash backwards. This leaves shielding and challenging as your only defensive options, and neither tend to end so well against a Ganon. The key to beating N-air spam, then, unless you're confident in the precision of your punishes, is to bait out a move after the N-air. Most Ganons will either Jab or F-Tilt reflexively after AC'ing a N-air, so take the opportunity that those moves afford you to get in.

When recovering, try to go high as often as possible. Ganon has some of the best tools to punish low and mid recoveries, but his second jump is very short and therefore disallows him from quickly covering options too far above the ledge. Ganon has no option other than Up-B OoS to hit you quickly behind his shield (instant B-Air goes over your head), so use this position to bait out a roll or a poorly used attack. Finally, when Ganon is floating below the stage, you can generally hit him with impunity because attempting to hit you back would leave him without the distance to recover. Oh, and don't extend your hurtboxes near the ledge when he use Sibe-B lol

 

[MWEX]

sidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebsidebSonic vs. Ganon 80:20
sidebsidebsideb

 

[GabPR]

Time for another change, who do you want to see next?

 

[Awaken The Bear]

have we done falco?

 

[GabPR]

Strangely enough I dont believe we have yet

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Falco is a pretty funny MU in my opinion. It can be hard to get out of neutral on FD-like stages, but once you can break out of neutral it's hilariously easy to kill him. Likewise, as with any other character, Falco can 0-death us nearly as easily. I'd place it as pretty stage dependent. Try to go to places like Distant Planet, Yoshi's Island and Dreamland so you can use the platforms to avoid his SHL. Make him work for lasers. I'd suggest going to Lylat or Yoshi's Story, but I feel like Falco wouldn't mind those stages at all here. I might be wrong. I have a lot more Fox experience than I do with Falco, but I can still speak to the MU.

 

[Star ☆]

The contrast between edgeguarding the spacies is interesting the say the least.


Wolf is the fastest faller so he gets absolutely demolished by Somersault and can be pulled offstage incredibly easy, however he doesn't stall for as long during his Up B and has a different recovery option in his Side B so Homing Attack gimps aren't as strong.


Falco has the worst recovery so once you get him offstage its an easy Homing Attack as Falco can't afford to mix up his recovery too much lest he falls short of the ledge, the problem innately here is that Falco has his lasers and high priority aerials, meaning its harder to pull him offstage in the first place. (Go to a stage with platforms and land aerials off platforms to get him offstage)


Fox is somewhat in the middle as he is the slowest faller out of the three and has the best recovery as well so edgeguarding him is much harder as he has the leeway to mixup his recovery (Eg. backflip to avoid HA then Illusion or fall low, wall jump then airdodge). However I find him the easiest to intercept onstage with the hop version of Somersault and then either JC grab or Baseball slide.

Honestly I think they're all pretty even in terms of how Sonic deals with the three of them and its just knowing what your best options are that will help you win the match. I'm going to post what I think the matchup spread is as soon as I can.

This was a post I wrote earlier about edgeguarding the different space animals. I believe Falco is the one Sonic struggles with the most simply because a good Falco will not allow you to land stray hits that will push him offstage. To somewhat circumvent this I suggest you go to stages like Dreamland, Battlefield or any platform heavy stage (except Skyworld or FoD because they help heavily with shine combos)

These stages will allow you to land bairs and/or Somersaults off platforms which is a very powerful tool in the matchup. I suggest you all learn to nair/dair oos frequently as its a necessity to beat Falco if he flubs his shield pressure.

 

[GabPR]

Seems like Falco is this weeks pick!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

We kinda just sorted that out ourselves, huh... sorry 'bout that Gab

 

[GabPR]

We kinda just sorted that out ourselves, huh... sorry 'bout that Gab

Thats like... the whole point of this thread xD

 

[Awaken The Bear]

If it wasn't for falco's lasers, I'd say this matchup would be highly in Sonic's favor. However, his lasers make it very difficult for Sonic to approach and let Falco completely dominate the neutral game. In order to deal with this I'd avoid taking Falco to large stages like FD and Distant Planet. As long as you can stay on top of him, you can quickly take him out of neutral and off the stage where it's game over from there.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

DP is IMO pretty good, there are platforms across essentially the entire stage to work with; however I'd advise against PS2 cuz that's essentially FD.

 

[NyTR0]

The hardest spacie to deal with on stage with but the easiest to kill surprisingly. The lasers are what makes him a pain but he can be killed super early if you play your cards right. Obviously as mentioned already, avoid big stages where he can distance himself to laser camp. Avoid approaching with down B. Don't try to play footsies with him in a CC war cause his dumb down tilt will win. Falcos side b has as much priority as a fox laser Lol. Almost any hit box you throw out will stop him. If you notice he's bad at DI'ing chain grab. He can be the hardest and easiest spacie depending on how you work around to get to him. Personally, I prefer the air.

 

[DrugsM2]

herp derp homing attack>falcos butthole once hes off stage at anywhere below 50% or just dairing or fairing the up-b, ftilt for the side-b

and honestly, i have no clue how a falco other then CC shine would go about avoiding side-b from a sonic who is shield stop power shielding all the lasers, if he mispaces one laser you just hop grounded side-b over the laser and get a free hit then drag him off and hit neutral-b lol

fox is way harder to deal with in neutral AND for edgeguarding because he 1. is on par with sonics neutral approach range, dash dance speed, and wavedash speed and 2. wins neutral vs sonic unless you can force them to respect your dash dance through dash away bairs on nair approach or just out DDing them

 

[JFyst]

As if Falco's lazer doesn't shut down all of sonic's approches, and every one acts as edge guarding falco isn't super easy on most characters in the first place, it's litteraly the only place he's vulnerable. This match-up is all about our punish game. The second we touch falco, we have to be on top of him and make every opening count. I'd like to say that once we're in it get's easier but no, if falco is on the ground, you constantly have to bait shine but remain close enough that he won't lazer but not too close or you'll see how his aireals beat yours. In my opinion big stages actually work well against falco, I do well on DreamLand against this bird, I don't like stages with close blast zones as I feel they compensate for Falco's recovery with his kill power. While sonic's recovery doesn't allow for much mix-up I find myself living longer on these stages. Practice power shields, I know it's a pain and difficult but it really helps the MU, sonic's grab shenanigans are as nice on falco as any fast fallen. And I think the homing attack has been mentioned enough. I will clean this block of text when I get home.

 

[NyTR0]

I think the side b drag off stage to homing attack is just priceless haha.

 

[Zenokidz]

The falco match-up is very difficult to deal with on larger stages IMO. Given that he has the room to laser camp us, it makes it a pain to get in. It sounds a bit too obvious but grab to up throw is our best bet for potential follow ups at lower percents. Use your speed to bait out wake up shine and pressure him toward the edge for an early gimp.

 

[NyTR0]

I say we need to talk about Wario or Luigi pls. (More wario) wario gives me a bit more of hard time

 

[JFyst]

I'd like to talk about bowser or yoshi.

 

[GabPR]

sorry for the big delay, but the new change will be done this week! please voice on who do you want to see next?

 

[Star ☆]

Some reference material for Sonic vs Falco.

I did okay in the beginning but Mango began to predict my bair pokes on shield.

 

[NyTR0]

Some reference material for Sonic vs Falco.

I did okay in the beginning but Mango began to predict my bair pokes on shield.

This was really nice to watch. I feel like you can take him but just had a hard time with getting stuck in shield but like I said, I'm more than positive that you can take him.

 

[Star ☆]

This was really nice to watch. I feel like you can take him but just had a hard time with getting stuck in shield but like I said, I'm more than positive that you can take him.

Thanks for the encouragement

It was supposed to be Bo5 but the commentator's desk mistakenly told me it was Bo3 which, in hindsight, is very annoying cos I was starting to somewhat get a grasp of what was going on in the matchup.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

I'm hoping for Squirtle MU discussion.

Save for the long discussion, I believe it's about a 60:40 ratio for Squirtle:Sonic


btw @ Star ☆ Awesome job! How did you convert a grounded Side-B into a Uthrow in the beginning of the match?
It seems like Mango quickly figured to CC/CC Shine through all of Sonic's spins all throughout.

 

[Luk]

I'm hoping for Squirtle MU discussion.

Save for the long discussion, I believe it's about a 60:40 ratio for Squirtle:Sonic


btw @ Star ☆ Awesome job! How did you convert a grounded Side-B into a Uthrow in the beginning of the match?
It seems like Mango quickly figured to CC/CC Shine through all of Sonic's spins all throughout.

Squirtle would be an interesting discussion. He's slow slippery and fast in his own weird way.

I could be wrong, but I believe that was just side-b -> JC grab -> throw. It can come out fast enough that it can almost just seem like it's a spin into throw with nothing in between.

 

[GabPR]

I apologize again for the long delay, here we have for our next discussion: Squirtle!