Sonic Matchup Discussion. General

[GabPR]

Hello guys.

I decided I wanted to create a structured matchup thread to discuss our problems, thoughts on the matchup, punish game, neutral game and personal experiences against different people will also be accepted.

In order to keep things from going in too many directions, I decided that discusions will take place with one matchup at a time until a week goes by or there is a general agreement on moving on.

To start off, I decided to pick the most popular top tiers of the patch, mostly melee characters due to their popularity increase. I will later proceed to other characters in order of popularity. If you want to talk about a certain matchup that is not in this order, please ask it and I will consider prioritizing them.

Edit: Here are some aditional rules for the thread

• A character will not be switched for a minimum of 1 week, even if the thread has little activity. The exception to this is that the majority want a character switch early.
• Before the end of the week, I will ask which characters you would like to discuss next, and will proceed to pick the majority's choice.
• Characters that have been already been talked about can be picked again if the majority of people who ask for it, but they will not be talked about 2 weeks in a row, this is to allow more variety in terms of other matchups.
• In the event of the character votes to be a tie, priority will be given to the earliest voter of one of the tied characters.

 

[GabPR]

In this post I shall be gathering the discussion speculation with each character in the ongoing weeks. As this is all just speculation, data may be up for change if these characters are touched on again. If you would like to add on on the information or disagree with any of these speculations and would like to touch upon them, then by the end of the week of a character you can opt to vote to pick this characters again. If enough people agree then the discussion will re-open.
Props to @ Vultron for putting together the speculations.



Fox

Spoiler

Things You Should Know:

Spoiler

• This matchup is generally in the Fox's favor, but that does not mean it isn't winnable!

• Fox's meta has developed for ~13 years, so some Fox's will be much better than you expect.

• At the beginning of the match, Fox will generally have the upper hand in the neutral due to his lasers.
• The match will reset to neutral quite often, so remember to be patient about it.

• Fox often also has an easier time killing Sonic thanks to his floatiness, the best thing to escape these is knowing your DI.

• Spacing in this matchup is pretty much required for you do much, make sure you know how far each of your attacks will go, and what attacks are good follow ups without being too close.

• Fox likes to gimp Sonic with Shine.

Things You Should Do:

Spoiler

• When choosing a stage, go to a larger stage such as Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Final Destination. If your opponent bans all three, it is recommended to go to Distant Planet, or Dreamland. This way it is possible to stay at a mid range but still have the running room Sonic desires.

• Sonic's best tools for this matchup are definitely his JC Grab and tilts.
  • Sonic's DThrow > Tech Chase is probably one of the better things to utilize. It is possible to space them out correctly enough so that you can grab a whiffed shine, over committed lasers, or poorly timed tilts.
  • Sonic's Tilts do wonders against Fox if you know the timing for all of them. The best tilts to use are Utilt and Dtilt as they have positively disjointed hitboxes, are great at tacking on damage, and will keep Fox close enough to you that you can use other moves too.
    • Ftilt will out space FireFox, which is good for edgeguarding.

• Sonic has a great combo game on Fox, this especially shines at mid percents. Things you could do will generally start off with a grab then can be followed up with tilts/specials/aerials or even another grab if you read the DI/Tech

• Sonic also has a really good bait and punish game so use and abuse it as much as you can. Some things to use are running up to him and baiting a NAir. You can punish these with :

• • Stepping back and RAR Bair
  • Wavedash > UTilt
  • Wavedash > turnaround SideB > JC Grab
  • Wavedash > turnaround SideB Kick (Use this at higher percents usually at => 100%)
  • Wavedash > FSmash
  • Follow through with the motion and DAir on top of him

• It is possible to avoid the Shine spike by using Homing Attack on Fox as he is heading towards you.

• You can still gimp Fox with Homing Attack, but just know that it is much more risky now. To do this, Homing Attack while above Fox and while he is offstage.

• You should attack a Fox that is over committing to Lasers when he is very close to the ledge, as this will lead to an easy gimp.

• Always tech Shine!

Things You Should Don't:

Spoiler

• Let yourself get caught offstage as Fox can edgeguard you pretty easily, to avoid this be sure to know your mixups.

• Let Fox get far away from you and start using his laser, this will force you to approach. In the event that you are forced to approach, DO NOT approach with DownB, as Fox WILL intercept it with most likely an USmash

• Be over aggressive, as Fox will just be able Crouch Cancel Shine or just jab to stop you.

• Run away from Fox slowly, he will just be able to dash towards you and UpSmash

• Rely on UAir, Fox can DI so well that he escapes it with ease.

• Roll while Fox is lasering at you, as he will just get bonus damage on you.

Marth

Spoiler

Things You Should Know:

Spoiler

• This matchup is going to be a lot of bait and punish game, something Sonic excels at. You need to be as tricky as possible when it comes to approaching Marth.

• For the most part, this match is pretty even, but also be weary that Marth's meta has been evolving for ~13 years.

• Going in and out with your attacks is great if you have a hard time dropping a combo on him.

• Know your spacing, and know that Marth can outreach all of your attacks with a tipper.

• If Marth runs to you, he is most likely going to Dash Attack, WD Back, or possibly grab.

• Marth and Sonic can combo on each other pretty easily, so know your DI/SDI

Things You Should Do:

Spoiler

• Play on the more defensive side. Punishing Marth's long reach will require you to be aware.

• Boost grab a low percent and shielding Marth. A landed Boost grab is a safe approach and can go a pretty long way when it comes to combos.

• Tech in place when Marth grabs you, from there, you can jab > DTilt > aerial.

• Crouch Cancel > DTilt Marth's aerial approaches. This will allow you to set up combos on him.

• If you find yourself above Marth, Spinshot away and DAir to the ground to escape faster.

• Kill Marth early with spring gimp, then laugh at him.

• Punish Marth's safe looking moves, such as:
  • After you sheild an FSmash WD in and punish, Blast Attack works well
  • If a Marth does a rising FAir, catch it with an aerial of your own.
  • If Marth L-Cancels a NAir on top of your shield, grab.

• Only use Homing Attack if you know Marth will not be able to react to it.

• SH UAir, this works really well on Marth, so use it whenever applicable.

Things You Should Don't

Spoiler

• Contest Marth's UpB with any aerial. He will usually stop you.

• Be caught above Marth. His UAir and FAir are pretty brutal if you get stuck in one.

• Shield a lot. In this fight, it is crucial that you stay mobile.

• Spam Special Moves. They are good, but your tilts and aerials work so much better.

• Hesitate when you are going in for a punish, otherwise you will miss your opportunity,

Captain Falcon

Spoiler

Things You Should Know

Spoiler

As with the other Melee veterans, Falcon has had ~13 years for his meta game to develop.
This is definitely a battle for style. So even if you are losing, go for the style.
This matchup will really on your bait and punish skill and edgeguarding capability.
Falcon will generally approach with NAir at lower percents.
Beware of Falcons Neutral game.
Both Sonic and Falcon have great combo ability on each other.

Things You Should Do

Spoiler

Abuse your punish game. This can be done by using grabs that lead to tech chases as Falcon has poor tech options and will usually tech in place or use his get up attack.
DownB > Cancel > DSmash works pretty well
Mix up your aggressive and defensive pay, as both work well, but if one used too much, it will hurt.
Abuse your gimp game. Homing Attack > NAir works perfectly when getting Falcon off the stage.
Trade with Falcon's NAir using BAir, FTilt, UTilt, or FSmash.
Go in and out a lot, especially if you have a hard time starting up a combo.
DI Down and Away on most moves, except for his FAir, then you should DI Up and Inward.
Stop Falcons recovery with Spring, FAir, NAir, DAir, FTilt, FSmash, DSmash.
Falcon is really easy to stop from getting on edge, SideB to ledge is usually faster than Falcon's UpB, if he goes in to the stage he will have enough landing lag that you can knock him back off with a BAir.
Falcon can be juggled with an UAir.
Wavedash backwards and DSmash can stop some poor approaches.
JC Grabs > UThrow/DThrow are great.
SideB Kick will send Falcon pretty far offstage.

Things You Should Don't

Spoiler

Be caught above Falcon as he will combo you pretty easily thanks to your weight.
Contest Falcon Kick or Raptor Boost, just dodge and punish it.
Let Falcon Stomp you too many times. You need to tech this every time.
Get caught in NAir, this is Falcon's combo starter.

 

[MWEX]

Depends on the fox to be totally honest.

 

[GabPR]

Depends on the fox to be totally honest.

How would it differ?

 

[Ariyo]

I compare it to the Marth vs Falcon matchup. Fox can win the neutral all day, and can kill and edgeguard Sonic easily. Yet, Sonic's combo game can be ludicrous on Fox. I think the matchup is only slightly in fox's favor on most stages, probably 55 - 45. On small stages, like Warioware and Yoshi's Story, I'd say 60 - 40 Fox, but it could probably be worse. I tend to avoid those stages against spacies in general.

 

[Ariyo]

How would it differ?

I think he's saying that a Fox that is unfamiliar with the matchup can make Sonic look like a monster. Similar to how Wizzrobe was 4-stocking unsuspecting Foxes left and right in 3.0.

 

[GabPR]

That is true, I myself have faced both ends of the spectrum, and In my opinion the most troublesome fox is the campy counter attack kind of fox, but I am not refering to a laser camping fox.

 

[Solharath]

I think I've been bodied by knowledgeable Foxes left and right enough to know that this matchup is sadly a bit more skewed than we're willing to admit. It's already clear Fox wins the neutral all day here - his lasers force and approach, and his aerials are a complete shutdown against many of Sonic's moves - well spaced moves are great, but generally are slower, and an active Fox isn't going to let his guard down for long.

The worst thing about this matchup(and when we discuss him, Marth), is Sonic's tech options are some of the worst in the game. They're slow, lacking in protection, and often lead to a very easy USmash or (somehow) worse combo. Fox can force a tech with just a shine, and he can waveshine and chase Sonic out of a roll away- technical Foxes eat the hedgehog for breakfast.

Sonic's tools in the matchup are his combo game, but combos don't start to appear until mid percents, even the chaingrab, when they SDI, has no direct followups(a fact only the spacies share) at low percents. It's a tech chase, and Fox's options are better than most - especially if you're off by a few frames, because he can shine your terrible grab range that no JCGrab can power through.

And as Fox's learn the matchup, they can and will start to gimp you just as bad as we've been doing to them. It used to be that we could still potentially see our way back from a shine gimp, but with the HA change, it's a dead hedgehog. Your 'endless' vertical recovery is horrendous against Fox, as any option you do has a textbook answer.

Fox wins 60:40 overall, easy. On counterpick stages, he benefits more from the selection, where your best options are Smashville, PS2, FD, and GHZ.

Some notes:
Ftilt can space through FireFox.
HA has an angle that can trade with the startup of FireFox, but honestly it's exceptionally tight.
Fox can CCShine your DownB/SideB(Sheik can CCDSmash)
Utilt and Dtilt are going to be your best options most of the time. Try to stay out of a ball(this includes Nair/DA).
A Fox can DI Uair so hard he can make any combos a pipe dream(unless you perfect a Spinshot Nair/Dair).
Your best option out of Dthrow/shine/knockdown is be on point with your directional mixups. Its RPS where he's playing with two hands and you've got just the one. And depending on positioning... he might have all three.
Fox's acceleration is the same/faster than Sonic's. If you have to run through him, you'll never escape a USmash. If you're running away, he can dash>Usmash for the first little bit of distance and catch you. (Marth can too, for longer, with DA).

 

[GabPR]

I think I've been bodied by knowledgeable Foxes left and right enough to know that this matchup is sadly a bit more skewed than we're willing to admit. It's already clear Fox wins the neutral all day here - his lasers force and approach, and his aerials are a complete shutdown against many of Sonic's moves - well spaced moves are great, but generally are slower, and an active Fox isn't going to let his guard down for long.

The worst thing about this matchup(and when we discuss him, Marth), is Sonic's tech options are some of the worst in the game. They're slow, lacking in protection, and often lead to a very easy USmash or (somehow) worse combo. Fox can force a tech with just a shine, and he can waveshine and chase Sonic out of a roll away- technical Foxes eat the hedgehog for breakfast.

Sonic's tools in the matchup are his combo game, but combos don't start to appear until mid percents, even the chaingrab, when they SDI, has no direct followups(a fact only the spacies share) at low percents. It's a tech chase, and Fox's options are better than most - especially if you're off by a few frames, because he can shine your terrible grab range that no JCGrab can power through.

And as Fox's learn the matchup, they can and will start to gimp you just as bad as we've been doing to them. It used to be that we could still potentially see our way back from a shine gimp, but with the HA change, it's a dead hedgehog. Your 'endless' vertical recovery is horrendous against Fox, as any option you do has a textbook answer.

Fox wins 60:40 overall, easy. On counterpick stages, he benefits more from the selection, where your best options are Smashville, PS2, FD, and GHZ.

Some notes:
Ftilt can space through FireFox.
HA has an angle that can trade with the startup of FireFox, but honestly it's exceptionally tight.
Fox can CCShine your DownB/SideB(Sheik can CCDSmash)
Utilt and Dtilt are going to be your best options most of the time. Try to stay out of a ball(this includes Nair/DA).
A Fox can DI Uair so hard he can make any combos a pipe dream(unless you perfect a Spinshot Nair/Dair).
Your best option out of Dthrow/shine/knockdown is be on point with your directional mixups. Its RPS where he's playing with two hands and you've got just the one. And depending on positioning... he might have all three.
Fox's acceleration is the same/faster than Sonic's. If you have to run through him, you'll never escape a USmash. If you're running away, he can dash>Usmash for the first little bit of distance and catch you. (Marth can too, for longer, with DA).

There is no need to be in a rush to approach fox if he lasers to get smacked. Imo the best thing to do is to get around mid distance of him and that should be enough to pressure him into come to you or stop doing lasers. at the slightest signal of the fox jumping to do another jumping laser, Sonic is fast enough to run up to him and and grab/smack him in the face with something like side b kick, fsmash, dsmash etc. A knowledgeable fox player that knows this will attempt to nair approach you to stop the approach. This can be punished more easily than you think if you know how to, what you can do is:

• Run back and bair
• up tilt (if you space correctly)
• run back do turn around side b kick (at higher percentages preferably, normal side b into jc grab is possible but harder since fox can shine to stop it if you do not time it correctly )
• run back fsmash
• jump and dair
• etc.

 

[Solharath]

Except Sonic's acceleration isn't really enough to close the gap a SHFFLing Fox is going to be lasering at. Sonic is fast enough to grab/Smack him in the face, if he's already committed to movement, which actually puts the favor back in Fox's court as he's got really good options here - namely, shine. Jab can stop all grounded approaches except Run Cancel, and CCShine beats the rest. Fox can jab Sonic out of his JCGrab, even when spaced. A WD will reset to neutral, except Fox's laser is still going to tack on percent.

All of your examples are based on a Fox who is forced to approach, but removes the idea that he himself can back off just as fast and return to lasers, or retreat to platforms, where his FF speed, strong aerials, and movement options out of shine allow him to force a return to neutral against Sonic's own aerial game, where the best you can do is attempt to read how Fox is going to return to the main platform, and hope you've judged it right, read it right, and spaced it right, and you'll get a solid hit in with a bair - something that will not lead into a combo. If Fox is grounded on a platform, he can CC the first hit of uair. And this is Fox we're talking about, and a good Fox is always ready to CC.

It's not that your options here are bad, it's that they're reliant on Fox approaching with SHnair. It relies on enough space to run cancel and input a move(utilt, Fsmash). It relies on a great many things that may only work once, twice, maybe a few times, but overall this match is going to be played out a great many times and for everything we do to fake out a Fox, he has more, deadlier options than Sonic does. He has empty hops to bait, he can SHNair in place, he doesn't have to double laser, as at mid range he'll only be inputting the laser at the last possible moment in case you do decide to try and get in a grab.

 

[GabPR]

Except Sonic's acceleration isn't really enough to close the gap a SHFFLing Fox is going to be lasering at. Sonic is fast enough to grab/Smack him in the face, if he's already committed to movement, which actually puts the favor back in Fox's court as he's got really good options here - namely, shine. Jab can stop all grounded approaches except Run Cancel, and CCShine beats the rest. Fox can jab Sonic out of his JCGrab, even when spaced. A WD will reset to neutral, except Fox's laser is still going to tack on percent.

All of your examples are based on a Fox who is forced to approach, but removes the idea that he himself can back off just as fast and return to lasers, or retreat to platforms, where his FF speed, strong aerials, and movement options out of shine allow him to force a return to neutral against Sonic's own aerial game, where the best you can do is attempt to read how Fox is going to return to the main platform, and hope you've judged it rtroubleread it right, and spaced it right, and you'll get a solid hit in with a bair - something that will not lead into a combo. If Fox is grounded on a platform, he can CC the first hit of uair. And this is Fox we're talking about, and a good Fox is always ready to CC.

It's not that your options here are bad, it's that they're reliant on Fox approaching with SHnair. It relies on enough space to run cancel and input a move(utilt, Fsmash). It relies on a great many things that may only work once, twice, maybe a few times, but overall this match is going to be played out a great many times and for everything we do to fake out a Fox, he has more, deadlier options than Sonic does. He has empty hops to bait, he can SHNair in place, he doesn't have to double laser, as at mid range he'll only be inputting the laser at the last possible moment in case you do decide to try and get in a grab.

I only mentioned the most common response I have seen in tourneys that gives Sonic players a hard time. What I mentioned was my solution to that specific scenario, and it may not apply to other responses a fox will give. Sonic is not without good options that counter those scenarios as well.

Also, fox should not sh laser Sonic when he is within mid to mid close range because it becomes really risky, especially considering he will most likely only be able to laser Sonic near the edge of the stage, and a punish that sends him offstage will probably mean death.

 

[Solharath]

Long and mid range is where a Fox should be lasering. He need not do it mindlessly. In fact, what you're continually describing sounds like bait for Sonic to take. If he lasers at low percents, chances are he can shine, nair, or what-have-you on an approaching Sonic aiming for a punish, and thanks to Sonic's audio cues, he can decide which to use if all he does is wait for that spinning sound.

Fox should be lasering around platforms, as any Fox worth his salt is going to ban FD against someone who can potentially chaingrab him. He'll be near an edge until Sonic makes his way towards him, in which his more powerful neutral game will be threat enough for Sonic to not come in all the way.

What tools does Sonic really have here in neutral? He'll be pressured by lasers for days. If Fox pushes himself into boxing territory, then his tools far outweight Sonic's, with a more useful jab, shine, and USmash to deliver a lot of hurt. Sonic has jab and Side-B, both which are outright beaten by Shine, and if Sonic has to shield an approach, Fox'll shine and reset the neutral as you roll away. Of course, if Fox reads the roll he can waveshine towards you and, again, force a boxing situation where he holds most of the cards with his quick, strong moves.

If you want a flowchart of what I'm talking about, watch CT Zero vs. CT Wizzrobe. Either CEO or BH4 is fine, the result is the same - complete domination in the neutral. Endless lasers in mid to even close range. I mean, this is exactly what you posited, a Fox that shouldn't laser that close, and Wizzy goes in to punish, and eats an UpSmash for his woes, and ends up losing the stock. We're talking the best Sonic in a version of the game where he had more tools and stronger tilts, and he couldn't handle Fox. I've said it before, too, that CT Zero's Fox is not anything absurdly special - it's like Hax Lite(but he is getting there in impressive speeds). He played the matchup as I've discussed it and ran the train on Sonic, despite early stock losses in two games(speaking out of BH4)

 

[GabPR]

Long and mid range is where a Fox should be lasering. He need not do it mindlessly. In fact, what you're continually describing sounds like bait for Sonic to take. If he lasers at low percents, chances are he can shine, nair, or what-have-you on an approaching Sonic aiming for a punish, and thanks to Sonic's audio cues, he can decide which to use if all he does is wait for that spinning sound.

Fox should be lasering around platforms, as any Fox worth his salt is going to ban FD against someone who can potentially chaingrab him. He'll be near an edge until Sonic makes his way towards him, in which his more powerful neutral game will be threat enough for Sonic to not come in all the way.

What tools does Sonic really have here in neutral? He'll be pressured by lasers for days. If Fox pushes himself into boxing territory, then his tools far outweight Sonic's, with a more useful jab, shine, and USmash to deliver a lot of hurt. Sonic has jab and Side-B, both which are outright beaten by Shine, and if Sonic has to shield an approach, Fox'll shine and reset the neutral as you roll away. Of course, if Fox reads the roll he can waveshine towards you and, again, force a boxing situation where he holds most of the cards with his quick, strong moves.

If you want a flowchart of what I'm talking about, watch CT Zero vs. CT Wizzrobe. Either CEO or BH4 is fine, the result is the same - complete domination in the neutral. Endless lasers in mid to even close range. I mean, this is exactly what you posited, a Fox that shouldn't laser that close, and Wizzy goes in to punish, and eats an UpSmash for his woes, and ends up losing the stock. We're talking the best Sonic in a version of the game where he had more tools and stronger tilts, and he couldn't handle Fox. I've said it before, too, that CT Zero's Fox is not anything absurdly special - it's like Hax Lite(but he is getting there in impressive speeds). He played the matchup as I've discussed it and ran the train on Sonic, despite early stock losses in two games(speaking out of BH4)

The ultimate get out of jail free card, Wizzrobe. Not to take anything away from wizzy, he probably was, and still would be the best Sonic if he still remained. But im going to ask your honest opinion, do you really believe he handled the matchup properly? I have seen his videos vs zero, and imo I really believe he did not. Sure, he 4 stocked colbol pretty easily, he also beat the likes of m2k against his fox too. But when faced against zero, people then said that Sonic gets bodied by Fox. Well, here I will put a video of him vs Zero in the Big House 4 and will try to give my analysis, starting with the first Match. Ill voice my opinions on it and then you can tell in which parts you disagree so we can discuss it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaRQy7AwWms

1st Match
2:08 - Zero nair shines Wizzy and he techs it. Zero fires lasers while retrating in mid-close range, but Wizzy rolls twice towards zero and takes free laser damage. Afterwards wizzy is again moves into mid range and zero aproaches with nair, Wizzy wiffs it and grabs, after 3 upthrows zero dis foward and Wizzy misses the punish.
2:18 - Wizzy catches zero in the air witch a side b slide kick, procedes to edguard and eventually kills him, takes a bit of damage in the process.
2:50 - Zero fires lasers to Wizzy, once wizzy is in mid range he decides to keep firing lasers and as a result gets grabbed for it.
3:14 - Zero fires lasers in mid range to wizzy, he stands still for a little while and then decides to do down b (took free damage in the meantime), Zero has enough time and reacts with nair, resets to neutral. For the rest of the match Zero does not fire when wizz is mid range or closer.
3:40 - Zero fires lasers long range, wizzrobe starts running towards him. Once in mid range, zero STOPS lasers and reacts with grab into up throw up air for kill(this was a really good play)
3:54 - After a quick laser, wizzy gets mid range and zero reacts with nair. Wizzy wiffs it and grabs him (so much for good fox players will never fall for that trick) but fails to punish and resets to neutral.
4:26 - Zero laser camps, wizzy again gets in mid range and zero immedietly nairs. Wizzy wiffs, but fails to JC grab so zero airdoges shine to reset neutral.
4:30- Zero laser camps (Notice he only does it long range), Wizzy gets in mid long range and zero reacts with up smash, he misses, wizzy tries to grab and fails, gets caught with shine up smash.

Thing to note:

• watching this match really carefully ilustrates the importance of teching shine. Wizzy techs it at various ocasions and saves himself a punish and resets neutral, when he does not he gets comboed / killed.
• Most of the time Zero fires lasers at a range not closer than mid range, when he sees wizzy entering the mid range area he mostly stops doing lasers, usually nairs to stop the approach. On the instance he did not respected Sonic being in mid range he got grabbed and punished as a result.
• There where a lot of instences where Wizzy landed a grab but did not convert the punish well or missed a tech chase. Most notable is the part where he up throwed him 3 times, instead of a second or third up throw he could have opted for an uptilt, up air or up smash for a stronger combo and punish.

If you want to comment on other instances I did not mention Ill be glad to listen and respond. Also, if you want to point me to another match or another video entirely, I will have no problem with that.

 

[Solharath]

There was a lot more close-range lasers in the following matches. I'm gearing up for work or I'd probably go into each instance and rewatch the entire thing, but while you argue Wizzy isn't an end-all example, he's still the best we have at the moment. And again I mention Zero isn't particularly exemplary with Fox either - he has struggled to get into any decent Top 8s in recent memory.

There were more instances of failed DI on from Zero's part when he did get grabbed. Just look at all the no-DI/wrong DI throws. Listen to the commentary in the later matches as well - they bring together a solid mindset and goal for Fox.

 

[GabPR]

There was a lot more close-range lasers in the following matches. I'm gearing up for work or I'd probably go into each instance and rewatch the entire thing, but while you argue Wizzy isn't an end-all example, he's still the best we have at the moment. And again I mention Zero isn't particularly exemplary with Fox either - he has struggled to get into any decent Top 8s in recent memory.

There were more instances of failed DI on from Zero's part when he did get grabbed. Just look at all the no-DI/wrong DI throws. Listen to the commentary in the later matches as well - they bring together a solid mindset and goal for Fox.

I will try to listen to.them more carefully when I get the chance, It would be interestin if you could analyze the.second match in a similar fashion that.I.did, by listing yourbwon notable moments and analysis. That way I can probably understand you more as a player and see things in your point of view.

 

[GabPR]

Allright guys, this week we will be discussing the melee prettyboy himself, Marth.

 

[Luk]

Allright guys, this week we will be discussing the melee prettyboy himself, Marth.

Oh friggin' A yes please. I just do not know how to handle Marth at all. What strategy works best for you? Hit 'n run? Bait 'n punish? Full on aggression?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Dang, I just found this thread. Sad to say that I have a lot of ideas about Fox, but not too many about Marth in comparison. However, with Marth if he is short hop fairing to space, we can run in with a shield and punish thereafter. Getting him above you is important as with any MU against Marth, so upairs are important. Going deep for edgeguards is nice too. EDIT: Dsmash is awesome, it's like Sheik's if that says anything lol. Good for crounch cancelling and punishing unsweetspotted attacks.

On a side note, I noticed Wizzy had absolutely ZeRo platform movement. That's another thing to keep in mind, especially with Sonic's excellent movement.

 

[Angry Drunk Chav]

I have the joys of having a marth main as a house mate.

Spring his recovery, don't try contest it, cus Marth.
Boost grabs, don't know why anybody isn't using this at all times.
Tech in place, jab his regrab, down tilt and back airs.

You've got a lot of kill potential on marth and you ruin his spacing by just being a hell of a lot faster.

 

[Solharath]

I get wrecked by Marth, no real input here.

You can CCDtilt aerial approaches if you don't get tipper-faired, and if you get tipper uaired you can tech and grab. Sonic is a lovely weight for Marth to go combo-crazy on, so make sure you know all your DIs. If you're above him, spinshot away and hopefully he'll have commited to a utilt or uair, in which you need to dair>l-cancel if you want to get on the ground fast enough to return to neutral. Any slower and he'll still have combat advantage on you.

Marth's WD makes this matchup hell on Sonic, especially against a Marth who knows his IASA frames on dtilt. If you can get the grab, push that advantage as far as possible. Also, only go for HA if you know they can't react to it. I've eaten enough Tipper-Dair to know that it's not viable on a Marth that knows your tricks.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Also another thing to note is that HA can be tipper fsmashed too if you're foolish enough to approach with it

 

[GabPR]

Marth moves that seem safe but are not (least know instances):

• After fsmash - on shield, either quickly wavedash into him and punish, jump and blast attack (quick enough and you can normal homing attack) etc.
• Rising fair - if you see a marth doing a quick rising fair and is relatively close, dont think about it, just react to it immediatly and go for it with a quick aerial. Do not go for a fastfall fair, it cancels quick enough for a tilt or other quick aerial.
• Nair upon landing - L cancel nair landing lag is not as short as fair l cancel landing lag, if you space it well enough you can go for a grab. If you manage to shield it and marth is close, you can grab as well, but watch out for a well spaced nair on shield, you cant punish that.
• Runing directly towards you - get familiar with Marths dash dance lenght, if you are dash dancing and he starts running towards you past his dd range he is most probably going for a dash attack to stop your dash dance or is going to wave dash back. This situation is not absolute since he can also grab and do a quick dancing fair, but it is definetly the most common, so you can try to take advantage of that.

What you shouldnt do:

• Shield a lot: Sonic has poor oos options besides sh nair, if you shield a lot he can just do a well spaced aerial or grounded attacks like tilts, and you cant punish him for it, so keep mobile, consider spotdodge and shield only with necesarry
• Spam b moves - Sonic has great b moves, but a good marth so much as hear or see a spinning effect and he will have his moves ready to intercept. Spice it up, dash dance, wavedash, waveland etc.
• Be above Marth - you dont want this, especially on plataforms. You could, lets say, spinshot above him to get to the other and get better stage positioning, but most of the times keep ground it, and keep HIM above you.
• Hesitate- If you so much as see Marth do anything I mentioned above, the moment you hesitate is when you lost your chance for a punish. If you can, have a friend help test these out to help you practice, become familiar with these situations and gain confidence.

These things are some of my general mindsets against marth, while not perfect it definetly has helped me do better in the matchup. There are more things but these are the ones that came to my head. Practice this stuff and best of luck.

 

[GabPR]

Its time for another change in character! The next challenger is none other than Captain Falcon. Discuss Doubts, experiences, Pros and Cons, dificulties, change selecttion etc.

 

[DrugsM2]

So literally all ive been able to figure out for falcon so far is that its entirely a punish game on our end since his nair and DD grab game control the neutral, i usually end up using alot of side-b in this MU to punish whiffed aerials from falcon and either JC grab out of it to throw him off stage, SH nair for the same reason, or just finish out the sliding kick as it has really good knockback and angle for forcing fast fallers off stage. Once hes off though we have a HUGE advantage it seems as we can fullhop fair meteor or SH bair his up-b and easily just full hop fair onto his side-b before he reaches the sweetspot or the stage. Besides all that if you arent killing him before 100% falcon is susceptible to an utilt near the edge into full hop DJ fair around 80% and if they dont DI away you can dtilt>pivot up angled fsmash at 100% or so and its nearely guaranteed.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

You can short hop under falcon for an upair to intercept his approach. Getting jump cancelled grabs is easy thanks to our superiour movement, and dthrow and uthrow work wonders against him. Even the f and bthrows can set up for easy edgeguards. If you get him off stage he is dead. You can fair him, drop of nair him, dair him, bair him or ftilt, fsmash, dsmash or even usmash him. He should never make it back on stage.

Being above Falcon on stages with platforms isn't a big de either as we can normally escape to the top platform and move away from him rather quickly. Wavedash back a dsmash can stuff a poor approach, and often get a ncie tech chase, or an easy edgeguard. In fact, as far as tech chasing goes, you can pretty much do it on reads alone due to our formidable movement and his not so formidable tech rolls. Honestly, get-up attack might be his strongest option, and that's saying something (well, maybe tech in-place, but still).

He can get some nice comboes on use due to our weight and semi-floatiness (ie be careful of the knee), but asides from that, I believe we have the advantage in both the neutral and maybe punish games. I'm a little undecided on the punish game only because the knee kills so early and the tech chases he has are killer on Sonic (we too have awful tech rolls). Dthrow into knee works pretty damn well because of our falling speed.

Catching him above you on a platform is always welcome too. Upair him to death essentially, if he doesn't SDI out of it. Finish with a nair probably.

 

[Vultron]

When you are against a Falcon that just doesn't know the MU very well, you can keep them suspended in the air with Homing Attack, but it's really just best used if you want to be a jerk.

 

[GabPR]

Out of all the cast, I believe Falcon is the easiest character to combo/edgeguard out of the whole roster. His weight makes it so up throw guarantees really damaging combos, even when DI'd down and away. His fast fall makes it so its real easy to up air string him into itself or into aditional options. His up b you only have to grab the ledge, and if he chooses to go unto the stage he has enough lag for you to just short hop and back air him out of the stage again or wavelanding into the stage, getting past falcon and just fsmash/grab/etc. Falcon also has a good punish game on you when it comes to killing you with a knee, but Sonics punish game on Falcon is superior in all aspects as he can pile percent or take him into the ledge, when Falcon has a really hard time edgeguarding Sonic.

Neutral game wise you could say nair can go through many of sonics options, which is true, but Sonic has the tools to get around that and maintain a close to even neutral game thanks to his shield pressure and Falcons poor oos options. Sonic can wiff falcon nairs or can trade using bair, ftilt, uptilt or fsmash (thanks to fsmash's disjointed hitboxes). Matchups wise I believe the edge goes to Sonic.

 

[Zenokidz]

I'd have to say that sonics best bet when it comes to the neutral against fox is to dash dance camp to bait out and unsafe option from the fox. Then Dthrow for a tech chase sequence that can lead to an easy gimp. Lasers make it a bit hard to do so though so also be weary of where you take the fox when it comes to counter-picks also.

 

[GabPR]

I'd have to say that sonics best bet when it comes to the neutral against fox is to dash dance camp to bait out and unsafe option from the fox. Then Dthrow for a tech chase sequence that can lead to an easy gimp. Lasers make it a bit hard to do so though so also be weary of where you take the fox when it comes to counter-picks also.

right now we are in falcon week, please try to speak about the characters listed. Btw I recently saw a vid of yours.

 

[Zenokidz]

right now we are in falcon week, please try to speak about the characters listed. Btw I recently saw a vid of yours.

Yeah sorry about that, i just wanted to touch on that particular MU for a sec. Against falcons i tend to stay on the more aggressive side. Our gimp game is very solid on him because of his weight. I usually try to go for Fthrow to set them off stage, and then follow through with HA to Nair.

 

[Solharath]

'Falcon Week'
There's hardly been two weeks in and we're on a third character.

 

[GabPR]

'Falcon Week'
There's hardly been two weeks in and we're on a third character.

15 days have past. Week 1 Fox, Week 2 Marth, and now we are in the beginnings of the third week. I do not see where your problem lies.

 

[Vultron]

15 days have past. Week 1 Fox, Week 2 Marth, and now we are in the beginnings of the third week. I do not see where your problem lies.

I think his problem is (and I somewhat agree) that we aren't truly discussing the MU's. This isn't a direct fault of you Gab, but a lot of posts (also mine) seem to just be a collection of 2 cents instead of meaningful discussion.

So to fix this I will propose some questions: What do you guys think are great bread and butter combos on Captain Falcon, when is the appropriate time to throw them out? On the other side, what are some good mix ups in regards to edge-guarding him?

 

[Solharath]

15 days have past. Week 1 Fox, Week 2 Marth, and now we are in the beginnings of the third week. I do not see where your problem lies.

Topic started Jan 28th.
You switched to Falcon topic on Feb 9th. That would be less than 14 days. Seems like you're switching topic discussion on Monday rather than Wednesday.

Fox only had five days, and y'all switched to Marth before his discussion could really take off - I didn't even get off a long stint off of my work>Sleep>work>tournament>work>freetime? schedule to actually even answer you before about breaking down the Wizzy v. Zero match before you counterpicked the discussion to Marth.

 

[Zenokidz]

I think his problem is (and I somewhat agree) that we aren't truly discussing the MU's. This isn't a direct fault of you Gab, but a lot of posts (also mine) seem to just be a collection of 2 cents instead of meaningful discussion.

So to fix this I will propose some questions: What do you guys think are great bread and butter combos on Captain Falcon, when is the appropriate time to throw them out? On the other side, what are some good mix ups in regards to edge-guarding him?

Usually if im lucky enough to get an edge guard opportunity on falcon i tend to bait out a bad option from him with spring. If the spring hits I'll follow up with Nair>j.c>Nair

 

[Vultron]

Topic started Jan 28th.
You switched to Falcon topic on Feb 9th. That would be less than 14 days. Seems like you're switching topic discussion on Monday rather than Wednesday.

Fox only had five days, and y'all switched to Marth before his discussion could really take off - I didn't even get off a long stint off of my work>Sleep>work>tournament>work>freetime? schedule to actually even answer you before about breaking down the Wizzy v. Zero match before you counterpicked the discussion to Marth.

So instead of weekly, how about we don't change it until it is thoroughly discussed or the thread comes to a halt?

 

[JFyst]

When playing against a good falcon I tend to stay on the defensive side, once sonic get's caught in a stomp or nair after bout 30% it can convert into death, we're good combo weight for falcon. Using sonic's great movement I go in and out, until around 70, where you can throw falcon off, from there he is one attack or ledgegrab from death.

After the first hit of down b, fast fallers hit the ground quick so its hard to tech, stop cancel the down b and go for a down smash, its pretty free.

Our recovery isn't hard to read though, the second your off stage your also susceptible to death, just not as bad as falcon.

 

[GabPR]

Sup guys, tomorrow or the after there will be character switch, any characters you would like see discussed?

 

[Vultron]

Sup guys, tomorrow or the after there will be character switch, any characters you would like see discussed?

Mario or Peach!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Mario is a good one: it can be tough if you don't understand the MU. There are times where you'll want to go in but can't because you have to wait your turn. I think Mario is a great idea.