Guide Sonic GUIDE/FAQ: ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[Shoyo James]

I've got a quick question for you guys...
Sometimes whenever I hammer spindash off ledge to continue my combos/whatever, I simply don't have a jump to save myself from SDing(or pursuing a follow-up). I HSD off of the GROUND, which means I should have my jump, right? I've SD'd so many times because of this.

 

[Camalange]

I've got a quick question for you guys...
Sometimes whenever I hammer spindash off ledge to continue my combos/whatever, I simply don't have a jump to save myself from SDing(or pursuing a follow-up). I HSD off of the GROUND, which means I should have my jump, right? I've SD'd so many times because of this.

That, my friend, is most likely the result of BSBS.

To credit @ Sonic Orochi 's moveset guide (which can be found here):

Spoiler: 3.The BSBS Mechanic

Spin Dash/Charge Roll Shenanigans (a.k.a.: why you keep SDing when using Side B and Down B)

• You can't double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ that derives from an aerial SD/SC, even if you release those on the ground (i.e.: start them on the air, land and then release them). You can, however, use HA, Spring, air dodge or any aerial to get out of the SDJ/SCJ animation. Also, you can still double jump if you had it available before the ASC/ASD, but only if the SDR/SCR runs off the platform;
• If you shield cancel an aerial SD (or shield cancel a charge jump from an aerial SD), the game will consider any following SDR/SCR to be a SDR/SCR from a ASD/ASC: you won't be able to jump out of it;
• if you fastfall a SDJ/SCJ and land without dodging or attacking, you'll lose the ability to double jump out of any subsequent SDJ/SCJ. No matter what you do, you'll have to jump and touch the ground again in order to regain your ability to double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ that allows double-jumping;
• I've come to the conclusion that the reason behind this SDR shenanigans is due to a certain new mechanic that I'll explain further in the next few sentences. Sonic has two stances: normal, which is, well, your usual stance and Brawl Spring Bug stance (BSBS), which is when the game makes you unable to double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ (similar to how we were unable to double jump in Brawl after a Spring jump that met certain conditions);
  • The BSBS basically means that you're standing on the ground but in a state in which the game thinks you're still in the aerial spin which came from an ASD or ASC. Therefore, any subsequent SDR/SCR you do while in this state will actually make that new, grounded SDR/SCR act like an aerial SDR/SCR (from an aerial Spin Special - SD or SC);
  • However, that is not all. Fastfalling a SDJ/SCJ and doing nothing before landing will also trigger BSBS (fastfalling from greater heights so you can actually get out of the spinning animation before landing will not trigger BSBS, though);
  • Also, if you don't have your double jump available AND enter BSBS, you won't even be able to double jump out of SD's hop;
  • To add to that, if you fastfall a SDJ/SCJ while in BSBS, you'll definitely lose your double jump (even if you had it beforehand). Yep, jumping out of a SDR/SCR off the platform or out of SD's hop is just not going to happen;
    
  • Some examples that end being straight up BSBS:
    • Fastfall while still spinning: SDJ/SCJ, VSDJ, SDSH;
    • ASD/ASC->land->full stop while on the ground;
    • ASD/ASC->land->SDR/SCR off the platform->land->...->full stop while on the ground (the SDR/SCR off the platform CAN be jump cancelled, but only if you had your double jump available before the ASD/ASC. However, when it touches the ground again, it's BSBS all over again);
    • SCASD (shield cancelled aerial Spin Dash);
    • SCVSDJ2AAASDTINRAIICSYCTDAVSDJ2 (shield cancelled vertical Spin Dash jump 2 after an aerial Spin Dash that is not released and is instead charged so you can then do a vertical Spin Dash jump 2);

tl;dr Sonic sometimes loses his double jump depending on how you spin so during the next spin you're trapped in the ball because of bad programming.

 

[Gregory2590]

keep it up sonic boards

 

[J.APS]

omg LOL
X'DDDDD
That was so funny

 

[Camalange]

Updating this thread with my latest tutorial on Instant Spin Dash Jump.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Awesometastic.

I might use that SD acronym shenanigans template @0:47 on my BSBS project muhahah

btw, I don't release B when trying to ISDJ..

 

[Camalange]

I might use that SD acronym shenanigans template @0:47 on my BSBS project muhahah

Spread the jargon!

btw, I don't release B when trying to ISDJ..

wait how

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I just keep the button held down.. Then the possible outcomes are a VSJ, ISDJ or stay charging the SD.

 

[Camalange]

I just keep the button held down.. Then the possible outcomes are a VSJ, ISDJ or stay charging the SD.

huh

well then

If anything I think you might have to release it for the B-Reverse though. Not sure now, haha.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Well, it's much better than accidentaly releasing an unwanted, uncharged SD, I guess.

 

[Lizam]

Updating this thread with my latest tutorial on Instant Spin Dash Jump.

Wow, much appreciated Camalange :D. I need to practice that B-reversal ISDJ...

Also, great choice of music ^_^

 

[Camalange]

Wow, much appreciated Camalange :D. I need to practice that B-reversal ISDJ...

Thank you!

dude b-reverse isdj is so painful oh my god i can't stress how much of a chore that was wow

Also, great choice of music ^_^

Sonic Rush is one of my favorites and I was like wow this song is so hype I hope the world can handle this video...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Is spinshot still a thing? I just picked Sonic and he's so much fun to use. Except his customs suck in a non-Smashville/FD stage.

 

[Camalange]

Is spinshot still a thing?

Yup!

Q: How do I shot spin?
A: You can Spinshot from both Side-B and Down-B. Side-B's can be done both on the ground or in the air, but Down-B's can only be done in the air. Both require you inputting jump or attack at or past a certain point during their charge. C-Stick can also be used, if the conditions are met...

Recommended [only?] input(s):​

• Air:

[Partially Hold] or [Fully Charge] /+ > [Release] > [Tap] (Attack) or /(Jump) or [Flick] // * , ***

[Tap] +] > [Release ] > [Tap] (Attack) or /(Jump) or [Flick] // **​

• Ground:

* Same
** N/A
*** v1.0.6+: C-Stick only works if switched from Smash to Tilt.​

​

 

[ぱみゅ]

More questions! A Custom Set worth using that is stage-versatile?
1113 seems to do the trick sometimes, otherwise simply stick to default isn't bad, and I kinda like his Up-2, but its only set is 1223, and Side-2 seems not to be very permissive when the terrain isn't even... Or do I simply need more practice with it?

 

[Nerdicon]

OK I was playing against a Sonic the other day on For Glory, his play was decent but one thing completely caught me off guard.
He could CANCEL the lag on dair! Is this some tech I didn't know about? Is it just a spacing thing? Whatever it was it meant a clean two stock for one of his matches.

 

[Camalange]

More questions! A Custom Set worth using that is stage-versatile?
1113 seems to do the trick sometimes, otherwise simply stick to default isn't bad, and I kinda like his Up-2, but its only set is 1223, and Side-2 seems not to be very permissive when the terrain isn't even... Or do I simply need more practice with it?

I only really use Burning Spin Dash and Gravity Spin Charge. People really like Hammer Spin Dash.

I'm not much of a guy to go to about customs though, lol.

OK I was playing against a Sonic the other day on For Glory, his play was decent but one thing completely caught me off guard.
He could CANCEL the lag on dair! Is this some tech I didn't know about? Is it just a spacing thing? Whatever it was it meant a clean two stock for one of his matches.

Q: Can Sonic L-Cancel his Down Air (Dair)?
A: No. Sonic used to be able to autocancel his Dair (Down Air) from the max height of his Spring, but this is no longer the case. However, if you're at the approximate distance of a jump plus the max height of a spring and then dair, it will autocancel. There's no way to shorten the lag. It just has an increased autocancel distance.

 

[kj22]

No more dair to grab the ledge anymore right? Unless you're way up high in the upper blastzone?

To clarify I'm talking about how you could drop a spring to edgeguard then dair and grab the ledge if you were at a high enough height in brawl. I tried dairing to grab the ledge but flew past it, I probably didn't dair high enough though

 

[Sonic Orochi]

No more dair to grab the ledge anymore right? Unless you're way up high in the upper blastzone?

To clarify I'm talking about how you could drop a spring to edgeguard then dair and grab the ledge if you were at a high enoughenough height in brawl. I tried dairing to grab the ledge but flew past it, I probably didn't dair high enough though

Yeah, the height needed for that is higher than the autocancel height.. I think it's after Sonic's "flip" animation that we're able to grab the ledge.

 

[Furret]

Updating this thread with my latest tutorial on Instant Spin Dash Jump.

you said almost frame perfect, in this if I'm not mistaken.
If you have the information, would you mind sharing with me how many frames it is? I kinda would like to know how big of a window I have

 

[Okagemi]

I just got grabbed out of homing attack? (Listen for the sound, as you can hear the hitbox activating, and me still getting grabbed). Sorry for potato cam.

#Camalange

 

[Furret]

I just got grabbed out of homing attack? (Listen for the sound, as you can hear the hitbox activating, and me still getting grabbed). Sorry for potato cam.

#Camalange

I think the grab hit you before you hit charizard
I mean that during the travel time you went into his grab

 

[Camalange]

you said almost frame perfect, in this if I'm not mistaken.
If you have the information, would you mind sharing with me how many frames it is? I kinda would like to know how big of a window I have

To be honest, I don't know the exact frames. I'm not very good at that sort of thing.

It's just important to know that it's a tight window. Not stupid strict, but definitely no where near as wide as a Spinshot.

I just got grabbed out of homing attack? (Listen for the sound, as you can hear the hitbox activating, and me still getting grabbed). Sorry for potato cam.

#Camalange

Interesting. My guess would be something along these lines...

I think the grab hit you before you hit charizard
I mean that during the travel time you went into his grab

... Charizard has a really stupid grab range. Like, it's a really good grab.
What's weird for me is that HA usually aims for the back of their hurtbox, but I guess your trajectory must've been specific enough that Charizard was grabbing you right in the middle of the launch before the hurtbox activated... In this game, if the hitbox had come out, you two probably would've clanked (in Brawl, grabs took priority over attacks but the grabber still took the damage, in this game, a grab clanks with a move). Since the grab straight up took priority, the hitbox must not have been out and your line of travel passed through Charizard's massive grab range.

Also, is #Camalange the new movement now?

 

[Furret]

To be honest, I don't know the exact frames. I'm not very good at that sort of thing.

It's just important to know that it's a tight window. Not stupid strict, but definitely no where near as wide as a Spinshot.

alright, most of these things I figured. Now only If I stop the bsbs from happening during practice

 

[Camalange]

alright, most of these things I figured. Now only If I stop the bsbs from happening during practice

The worst.

Happened during a good amount of my takes while recording, lol.

 

[Furret]

The worst.

Happened during a good amount of my takes while recording, lol.

yep, can't Fast fall for a new attempt

Please sakurai?

dam it

 

[messiahfreak2000]

Has anyone messed with this before? I was screwing around with b-reversing the spin dash and decided to toss in a grab. I was surprised to see the momentum carry over into a slide grab.

 

[VKatana]

Has anyone messed with this before? I was screwing around with b-reversing the spin dash and decided to toss in a grab. I was surprised to see the momentum carry over into a slide grab.

Looks like it might be something similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHHp7GTIrAM

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's been known for a while and it's incredibly unreliable (reverse ISDJ-tier).

I wouldn't bother, tbh.

 

[messiahfreak2000]

Gotcha. It seemed like a good footsies tool. I found ISDJ harder than this but that might just be me.

 

[Camalange]

You can get a lot of weird slides depending on how you time the shield cancel on Side-B.

I don't want to say totally unreliable but... Hm.

The regular slide or even turnaround slide is much easier.

 

[AreJay25]

So, if I get a grab in kill throw % range, but back throw isn't an option, what's better for a vertical kill? Up throw or forward throw?

 

[Furret]

So, if I get a grab in kill throw % range, but back throw isn't an option, what's better for a vertical kill? Up throw or forward throw?

Fthrow last I remember

 

[Camalange]

Fthrow will kill with rage around 140% at the earliest I think, depending on stage, character, etc. Uthrow might be better at that mid-high percent because Uthrow more easily sets up for Spring>Uair kills.

 

[Gregory2590]

I wouldn't dare fthrow until 170, tbh.

 

[Camalange]

I wouldn't dare fthrow until 170, tbh.

Honestly, yeah.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Assuming midweight top tiers like diddy, mario, luigi, sonic, ness, mid size brawler, yea, f throw is going to be the one you want to use around 170 or so. Because it has a higher knockback growth. Butnits also true that if sonic is also above 100, that you can get a kill with it as low as 150.

Against some of the lighter characters like tiny brawler, sheik, rosalina and pikachu. You can get kills with them in the 130-150 range depending on your own rage.

Also, if you are in a situation where you might get a situational kill, like on the top bf platform, or on the halberd platform, or during a delfino transition, you might want to try up throw instead. Because the launche angle will be more important than the knockback at times for those circumstances

 

[Beets]

Forgive me if this question has already been answered / is obvious.

How does Sonic's speed match up between his:
1) dash
2) spin dash (no charge)
3) spin dash (full charge)
4) spin charge (single charge)
5) spin charge (full charge (? (does spin charge have a max charge?)))

Never really figured out if his spin was faster than his dash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Both spindashes t full charge are slightly faster than his full run speed, at single charge b oth are noticibly slower than his run

 

[yope3041]

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this in, but aside from angled down FSmash, what are Sonic's options to knock someone who is hanging off a ledge?