Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Solharath]

My only problems remain thus:

-UAir nerfs. The animation does not match up with the hitboxes. He is clearly still attacking long after the hitboxes go away thanks to the lazy nerf on the move. Speed the animation up or return the frames where they were - it wasn't an overpowering move. Also the new first hitbox links far less into the second hit than before.

- Dtilt STILL negatively disjointed. I guess I don't see the hurtbox on the foot, but half of Sonic's shoe has no hitbox. For a move that would benefit from a tipper hitbox, he has... no hitbox.

- That new SideB roll-off animation needs something a bit flashier to keep from looking just... bad.

Also with such a dire nerf on turnaround DownB, it's a bit sad that uair works correctly out of SDJ now that it won't ever link right.

Still, engine tweaks give Sonic a much better game on the ground than before. People aren't crouch cancelling for free anymore in the middle of a combo.

 

[Gank'd]

Sooo uhhh i never played 3.0 sonic but i decided to main him after 3.5 came out, some things ive noticed that i dont really see used by other sonic players that ive been using are:

-Dair's iasa is 24 frames if you activate it on frame 3 of jumpsquat, which is insanely fast only metaknights uair is anywhere near that and thats 23 frames, sh dair l cancel seems to me like one of his strongest moves as it combos into itself at mid percents and sends horizontal for offstage spikes/meteors

-Boost grab can be activated on frame 2, sonics dash hitbox comes OUT on frame 2 seems logical that at at low percents or on heavier characters a well spaced boost grab will give an extra 8% for almost free minus the extra frames of dash grab over a JC grab

Okay, editing, just realized sonics boostgrab is character specific and did some testing heres a list of characters sonic has a boost grab+Dash hitbox on: marth, roy, wario, peach. bowser, yoshi, fox, pikachu, squirtle, kirby, olimar, and sonic

-Dash dancing. moonwalking, and wavelands are absolutely insane on him, i do my dash dance with wavelands (the wavelands are mainly to get out quick tilts if they get close) and moonwalks mixed in to throw off the rhythm and it seems to work wonders on peoples heads, they over commit miss a dash attack, grab, or whatever and then i run full speed at them and boost grab them for 20%

I honestly dont use down B or side B that much as i dont find them necessary, they are just slow with a ton of lag on the end of them, they just seem like situational tools to be used as reactions to certain situations

im new to the character and just throwing my opinions/ideas out there for everyone else to see, if you dont like them you dont have to use them they are just how i plan on using the character to what i believe to be his full potential

 

[DireDrop]

A Better Dtilt and Ftilt wouldn't hurt. I don't think he desperately needs them, but I haven't found them helpful in the neutral at all. Ftilt really only helps when edgeguarding and Dtilt is a little too situational for my tastes.

 

[Gank'd]

A Better Dtilt and Ftilt wouldn't hurt. I don't think he desperately needs them, but I haven't found them helpful in the neutral at all. Ftilt really only helps when edgeguarding and Dtilt is a little too situational for my tastes.

Personally ive gotten a few tilt combos using them like dtilt>utilt>dtilt>Upwards ftilt combos pretty nicely on people like marth at around 20 percent

Dtilt inparticular i find really useful because its hitbox sends them directly above you which leads to an uair or a nair, or at really low percents an utilt

 

[Vultron]

I honestly dont use down B or side B that much as i dont find them necessary, they are just slow with a ton of lag on the end of them, they just seem like situational tools to be used as reactions to certain situations

im new to the character and just throwing my opinions/ideas out there for everyone else to see, if you dont like them you dont have to use them they are just how i plan on using the character to what i believe to be his full potential

Sonic's SideB is absolutely great for carrying for carrying people off stage, if you tap B liken you would a short hop, you can JC or wavedash out of it and either SH to FAir or another SideB if you want. DownB used to be great for easily racking up damage, but now the it's better to SH into someone and DownB on top of them and get a quick escape.

 

[Gank'd]

Sonic's SideB is absolutely great for carrying for carrying people off stage, if you tap B liken you would a short hop, you can JC or wavedash out of it and either SH to FAir or another SideB if you want. DownB used to be great for easily racking up damage, but now the it's better to SH into someone and DownB on top of them and get a quick escape.

Eh like i said, side b is just slow compared to just using proper spacing with dashes and wavedashing into a tilt, sh dair/nair, or boostgrabbing (I really think boostgrabs need to be used alot more even if you dont get the grab the reduced lag at the end of the dash is amazing) i do agree though that side-b has some uses. ive used it pretty effectively as a tool to keep combos going like if im going to be late on a second dair ill side b to get a hitbox out there to keep them in hitstun and SH out into dair and at that point there most likely off the stage, its also just an insane recovery and ledgegrab tool i love run off side b to ledge

 

[Vultron]

Eh like i said, side b is just slow compared to just using proper spacing with dashes and wavedashing into a tilt, sh dair/nair, or boostgrabbing (I really think boostgrabs need to be used alot more even if you dont get the grab the reduced lag at the end of the dash is amazing) i do agree though that side-b has some uses. ive used it pretty effectively as a tool to keep combos going like if im going to be late on a second dair ill side b to get a hitbox out there to keep them in hitstun and SH out into dair and at that point there most likely off the stage, its also just an insane recovery and ledgegrab tool i love run off side b to ledge

I think it's really useful, not as an approach but something to continue a combo. It got buffed so it's pretty great for racking up damage.

 

[Vultron]

How does everyone feel about Sonic's shield pressure in 3.5?

 

[Vino.]

At first I HATED the new sonic, but now I can say I'm happy with how he is now. The things that did get nerfed, needed to. His playstyle is different, but the way he is played now is over all better for the game. Great job pm.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

At first I HATED the new sonic, but now I can say I'm happy with how he is now. The things that did get nerfed, needed to. His playstyle is different, but the way he is played now is over all better for the game. Great job pm.

Thats exactly the same thing for me

 

[jordanm43444]

Thats exactly the same thing for me

Same here, I honestly might even prefer 3.5 Sonic, it kinda forces me to use some cancels to try and get in with the removal of the turnaround hitbox on DownB

 

[Vino.]

Took the new sonic out at ktar yesterday, and was happy with my placing. Such a stacked tournament, and got 17th. Made it out of pools into bracket, trying to make it work.

 

[Vino.]

A cool thing sonic can do is immediately grab out of dash attack. This one works when dash attack hits, but also on the initial hit. I've messed around with it a bit. I like to use it on shields, so right after the initial dash attack hit, hit z immediately and sonic will grab.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Took the new sonic out at ktar yesterday, and was happy with my placing. Such a stacked tournament, and got 17th. Made it out of pools into bracket, trying to make it work.

Any Matches Recorded?

 

[Vino.]

Any Matches Recorded?

Sadly no, I wish that I did have some recorded. Since I feel like I played well.

 

[TKDbeast]

Only on a sonic discussion thread would there be the same character as a person's profile image 8 times in a row.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Looking to learn this character
I AM READY FOR THE 3.5 VIDEOS

 

[Vultron]

Looking to learn this character
I AM READY FOR THE 3.5 VIDEOS

Well the problem is that all the popular weeklies I watch there aren't any sonic mains on stream. Or an over abundance of sonic mains in general, people just don't want to go fast.

 

[`dazrin]

Are there really no 3.5 vids out yet?

 

[DireDrop]

I mean, there's footage of 3.5 Sonic, just not anything by prominent names like Nazo or Wizzrobe. At least not that I know of.

 

[`dazrin]

im looking for vids to learn stuff from so yeah, thats what i meant

 

[DireDrop]

I finally got the chance to play some friendlies yesterday. How are people punishing tether recoveries? The tether hop nerf makes them much easier to deal with, but I've found let go of ledge->dj->homing attack to be the most reliable.

 

[Player -0]

You can Nair them from the reel in. It's dumb amounts of easy. If you mess up the Nair then spring has you covered. If they go into the forced hop just ledgedash/ledgehop whatever depending on the percents.

 

[DireDrop]

What exactly is the reel in? Is that when you're on the ledge, they're hanging below you, and they try to go up?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It's exactly what it sounds like. Ain't no smoke and mirrors here.

 

[Ariyo]

Is anyone else having problems spinshotting from the ledge? It seems like spinshot behaves differently on the ledge than on stage. I tested it with frame advamce, and missing the timing of jump seems to act differently. I feel like this may be a bug

 

[GabPR]

Is anyone else having problems spinshotting from the ledge? It seems like spinshot behaves differently on the ledge than on stage. I tested it with frame advamce, and missing the timing of jump seems to act differently. I feel like this may be a bug

I think the main reason is that there is more delay to cancel down b with jump in the air, not only that, but spinshot is also shorter.

 

[Ariyo]

I think the main reason is that there is more delay to cancel down b with jump in the air, not only that, but spinshot is also shorter.

I think you're right. It just feels sloppy. As I said in the Tier List Thread, I'd rather just see Down B be replaced with something that isn't a spin and that would breathe new life into the character. Having a moving hitbox that travels as long as you want it to was something I thought would be removed in 3.5. Instead, it's still here, got nerfed in uncomfortable ways, and is still a little dumb in all honesty.

 

[GabPR]

I think you're right. It just feels sloppy. As I said in the Tier List Thread, I'd rather just see Down B be replaced with something that isn't a spin and that would breathe new life into the character. Having a moving hitbox that travels as long as you want it to was something I thought would be removed in 3.5. Instead, it's still here, got nerfed in uncomfortable ways, and is still a little dumb in all honesty.

It is a lot more punishable than it was before, because of this one can no longer use spam it without the worry of it being "risk free" and makes its uses are more situational, but at the same time it is still rewarding to hit above average percent.

 

[mimgrim]

I was looking for a thread like this.

So the other day I was messing around in Training Mode with Sonic and just trying to do the smallest DD I possibly could just cause. Well, while I was doing this I quckly went to the other direction and held it instead of continuing to DD but instead of going into the run animation Sonic turned around and slid backwards a rather long ways, like Squirtle WD length. I have no idea what the exact specifications are and was only able to replicate like 3 more times so all I know is that you want to be DDing in place, not sure if it needs to be a small DD or not, and then quickly hit the stick in the other direction like you are continuing the DD but hold it. I figure this is already known to you Sonic players and am wondering about the exact specifications of it.

 

[GabPR]

I was looking for a thread like this.

So the other day I was messing around in Training Mode with Sonic and just trying to do the smallest DD I possibly could just cause. Well, while I was doing this I quckly went to the other direction and held it instead of continuing to DD but instead of going into the run animation Sonic turned around and slid backwards a rather long ways, like Squirtle WD length. I have no idea what the exact specifications are and was only able to replicate like 3 more times so all I know is that you want to be DDing in place, not sure if it needs to be a small DD or not, and then quickly hit the stick in the other direction like you are continuing the DD but hold it. I figure this is already known to you Sonic players and am wondering about the exact specifications of it.

Its called a moonwalk, Some of the other cast members are also able to do it. Its a pretty well know technique and was available since melee. Here is a link for a tutorial video in how to do it (its from melee but you do it the same in PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDiQ0qJd1p4)

 

[DireDrop]

Did you just describe moonwalking?

Edit: Yeah he did.

 

[mimgrim]

No it wasn't Moonwalking, I've seen Moonwalking done before and it didn't look like it.

 

[GabPR]

Does sonic look like he is just standing and turning around as he slides?

 

[mimgrim]

It could have been Moonwalking, but I've never seen Moonwalking out of a DD before and I didn't do the inputs that Moonwalking requires.

 

[Player -0]

You may have accidentally not gone through the middle and got a moon walk. You can moonwalk out of a dash dance. Sonic's moonwalk is about the length of a Squirtle wavedash anyway.

If he was chilling in the animation where you stop from a dash then that was a moonwalk.

 

[Solharath]

Look into Aerial Side-B everyone. The new early-cancel frames they threw in for the purposes of streamlining the recovery may have unlocked a dangerous combo-extender. Try linking it into HA at mid-percents to carry them off the stage without wasting your double jump.

It may require a spinshot back to the stage sometimes, but it seems much more worthwhile now. This wasn't as possible in 3.02 due to how long it took to uncurl, and now you can hold on to your double jump. It can spell death for a Fox from a single grab.

Chaingrab > Footstool(lightly) off stage > FF > SideB > Cancel > If need be, HA, otherwise recover. The timing is tight as hell, so I don't think it'll show up everytime you get a grab, but yeah, that's a thing.

Another neat thing is if the Fox doesn't want to go off-stage from a Uthrow during low percents, you can force the issue by merely Uthrowing him again, then Blast Attack, and then do an Aerial Side-B cancel into a Homing Attack. Remember to drift back some before performing the sideB, or he'll be sent back with a reverse hitbox.

I guess it's worth noting that perfectly spaced Bair does not trade with Fox's USmash. However we're talking perfect. Otherwise, you eat the USmash, too.

 

[Player -0]

Speaking of which, with the new DACUS changes, I think it can be pretty amazing for comboing. Of course Sonic's other comboing things are dumb amounts of good but at the beginning of the DACUS I think there's a hitbox that pushes them forward into the rest of the DACUS (The dash attack hitbox maybe?). So they go forward then up. What happens if you do a moonwalk to DACUS, do you slide back then forward like when you do a moonwalk -> dash attack?

Sonic goes a decent distance (~M2 wavedash?) when he does DACUS too.

 

[Solharath]

It is nice that the Gatling combo is still there, but I think it only works if you input on frame 2, but I'm not sure. I think I've seen it in 3.5, but I honestly haven't looked into it for awhile. I have some percents and such on who it works against deeper in this thread if you want to look for them.

You can Gatling Fox twice at 0% if you follow the DI right.

 

[Solharath]

Here's a short list of Sonic info for peeps. Some of it's probably known, but on the off chance it isn't, here we go.

Aerial Side-B isn't a death sentence without a jump anymore, and it's really good for recovering low if you know how to cancel it on the first few immediate frames without turning it around. It's also a very solid kill move - better than fair for killing what is in front of you. It's really the change I'm finding the most use for, and was able to claim a lot of wins against opponents I've continuiously struggled against by utilizing it. VERY high risk, but VERY high reward.

Up-B has a lot of problems with muscle memory, but looking at the available grab range for it, it extends pretty far out horizontally, something I didn't know about before. Don't worry so much about sweetspotting the edge vertically - it's actually impossible, but Sonic can really stretch out a fair distance from the ledge while still grabbing it. Play with how far you can go out.

Speaking of Up-B, did you know you can extend the horizontal range of Sonic's aerial mobility? Just input an aerial - due to uair nerfs, Bair is what you should be using - and you'll fly much, much further than before. You lose out on the backwards ledge-grab box, but that shouldn't be your main concern anyway. If you time it right, you won't even lose any vertical range with the bair! The move will finish just as Sonic is coming down, which means he'll still grab the edge at the full height if you bair at the first available frame.

Uthrow DI traps pretty easily. At no/bad DI, it combos into uair juggles, at full right DI it combos into Fair(usually flub, depending on fall speed), or Dair(Easy spikes). At semi-good DI, you can sweetspot fair most easily.

Drop-Zone aerials on Yoshi's Island (Melee) will kill Sonic before he can react in most cases. I can't count the number of times I double jump, hear the sound, but die off the bottom.

Up-B's spring spawns from inside Sonic, so for seven frames he's vulnerable at the start with no movement. Remember, they removed his UpB Invincibility a long time ago, so don't expect to escape combos like you used to. Uair and Nair are faster, as is Side-B. Aerial SideB is probably a better chance at counter-attack than the others, but if you fail you'll have lost it for recovering.

There are some frames where spinshot's distance is closer to it's old length. It's definitely not halved. Haven't researched it thoroughly enough because my muscle memory often misses the input due to increased startup.

DownB off-stage can drag a Spacie down as you charge it. If you're on a stage like Fountain or GHZ, try Uthrowing a spacie off the ledge, and follow up with a footstool(light). As soon as you can, start your DownB charge and fastfall into them, dragging them even further down the stage. When it releases, double jump>Walljump>UpB. Knuckles is gonna be jealous of Sonic's Drill Dive.

On most platforms, Sonic can drop through or run off and bair before hitting the ground.

Dtilt has a lot of hitstun on it. Use it.

Sonic's shield is probably one of the worst in the game, sadly on par with his ludicrously short grab range. You have to be good at tilting it to defend yourself. Otherwise, expect attacks to graze Sonic's feet or bop him in his gigantic head a lot.