Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Yep, I'd go so far to say Marth and Roy have a better recovery than him now. At least they can traverse horizontally when they don't have a jump. Also, they have hotboxes. Sonic's recovery is easily one of the worst in the game now.

The Reason I'm desiding to main my Secondary Snake

 

[Vultron]

It's really bothersome that the Sonic 3 combo is gone thanks to the new down b trajectory. I feel like PMDT went a little overkill on everyone's changes, except for mario....

 

[Vultron]

I don't know how to delete a double post...

 

[Vino.]

Sonic just isn't sonic anymore. They tried to make characters fight like how they would in their respective games, and sonic use to. Now he does not at all.

 

[Shell]

Yep, I'd go so far to say Marth and Roy have a better recovery than him now. At least they can traverse horizontally when they don't have a jump. Also, they have hotboxes. Sonic's recovery is easily one of the worst in the game now.

In case anyone didn't know, you can hold back after starting Side-B in the air and it'll slow down enough that you can act out of it faster. This lets you get some little side-b boosts in occasionally before Up-Bing in scenarios where you wouldn't be able to otherwise. (This has existed for several releases now but is much more relevant in v3.5)

Once you factor in his side-b, up-b, homing attack, walljump, maaasive double jump and let all the v3.5 changes gel for a little bit I think you'll find that his recovery is still quite flexible and potent.

 

[DireDrop]

Sonic's wavedash looks so much better now with the fixed landing whatever. His movement is so pretty.

 

[mtmaster]

Haven't gotten to play but from the last few posts, it seems like Sonic is like a completely new character. Just how different isi he, as if he is as drastically different as everyone is saying then I literally have no one I can play with lol, Sonic was/is the only character I think I am any good with, and if he has become extremely different, or just "sucks" now that's going to be a serious problem lol.

 

[Tero.]

2nd time im dropping Sonic (first time was after 2.5)
This is just stupid. Not picking this character up again until they finally decide to not change up everything with every update

 

[Vino.]

In case anyone didn't know, you can hold back after starting Side-B in the air and it'll slow down enough that you can act out of it faster. This lets you get some little side-b boosts in occasionally before Up-Bing in scenarios where you wouldn't be able to otherwise. (This has existed for several releases now but is much more relevant in v3.5)

Once you factor in his side-b, up-b, homing attack, walljump, maaasive double jump and let all the v3.5 changes gel for a little bit I think you'll find that his recovery is still quite flexible and potent.

I understand you're part of the dev team, so you know more than I. But the wall jump, and the homing attack are barely useable. Those two are extemely situational now, and if you don't home on to someone the homing attack is simply going to get you killed. The side b even if you pull back is going to bring you pretty darn low before you can react, so all in all his recovery is not very flexible. Also yes, 3.5 did just release. But I have asked some elite sonic players, and they said he is not viable. While as well I would say 95% of the players on the forums have not had positive things to say about him. I love the game, and respect what you guys do. You guys do an amazing job, I just dislike what was done with sonic. Although I still will main him because he is my favorite character, I'm not ecstatic with him. I love project m though, thankyou for the game.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Keep in mind that now that most recoveries were nerfed, Sonic who already was great at edgeguarding, got even better. UpB allows him to dominate the vertical area of the ledge against most characters.

SideB and dash attack are great moves for setting up edgeguarding situations. Now about downB, you certainly have to be more careful when using it, but there was a brake mechanic implemented on it a few versions back, I recommend you to explore it some more, even on hit.

You must be extra careful when using Homing Attack offstage, but remember, it is still very useful inside the stage, especially on whiff punishing. Try exploring how Blast Attack can work alongside his other moves, it can help you build some extensive combos and is a powerful pressure tool agains people shielding or CC'ing.

 

[StriderAaron360]

Yeah spindash braking and cancelling are great for mixups and mind games. I'm actually ok with these nerfs for the most part. I just wish they would've at least buffed up-b so that it matched Brawl's vertical height. And maybe reduce the startup on up smash.

 

[DireDrop]

Up B is still pretty godly at getting out of bad situations.

 

[CryoGX]

I've been trying to notice some positives over the negatives, as there are definitely some in this update for Sonic.

Am I the only one who's overjoyed that Dair is actually a downspike now? I didn't see it in the changelog, but that crap is far more potent than just "downward momentum" like in 3.0. I can now downspike as I would in Sm4sh, if I wish, although, choosing when to use either spike will be the main issue. Either way, upon realizing I've got 2 dspikes with Sonic now, I forgave literally every nerf that he got. Also, I sometimes make the mistake of hastily c-sticking down as a way to escape an onslaught in the air and get back on the ground. The fact that dair is slower means I can more easily pick up on and correct my mistakes if I do this and miss the platform or am already off of the map.

While HA is terrible for recovery without a target, now, it seems like it can be more useful offensively, as it seems like it's even straighter now. I've hit people who were perfectly perpendicular to me without the slightest curve in trajectory. Seriously, I was hitting people who were directly above or below me. I'm pretty sure this didn't happen as much before.

Also, maybe I simply haven't noticed this one before, but I somehow set up SD to where it "carried" my target through it. Upon initially hitting the target, it was knocked back far enough to land right back into SD as it was still travelling.

I feel like Nair is overall just better. I'm landing sweetspot hits so much more of the time and I feel that it's generally a far greater harass tool than it was before.

They diversified the sound effects on each of his "ball" attacks. THANK YOU. Even I was starting to get annoyed by every attack having the same high-pitched whine, and I'm one who loves to do the annoying with Sonic. (I still relentlessly taunt cancel for lols, though >:D)



I'd call Sonic my "true main", as in, regardless of what happens to him, I'll try my best to make the best of him and annoy the ever-living crap out of my friends play him skillfully in the face of any adversity. So, I have to relearn Sonic; that's somewhat unfortunate, but it's kind of a breath of fresh air with this update. I wouldn't necessarily say Sonic was made worse with the nerfs that I saw; I'd say that I've been challenged to find another way to effectively wreck scrubs with him. >:D
plustheresthatJetSetRadioaltwhyinthehellwouldanysanemainstopmainingSonicafterthat?!?!

 

[StriderAaron360]

Positive Stuff

Yeah man we need to just stay positive and look at his strengths. I think Sonic still has the potential to be very good, and these nerfs just might make us all work much harder and become better players in general.

Like for me personally, I was way too reliant on spin charge shenanigans. Now with the nerf to spin charge, I have to focus more on using Sonic's dash techniques and footsie game. I'm confident this will improve my Sonic and me as a player.

 

[Virum]

I've been trying to notice some positives over the negatives, as there are definitely some in this update for Sonic.

Am I the only one who's overjoyed that Dair is actually a downspike now? I didn't see it in the changelog, but that crap is far more potent than just "downward momentum" like in 3.0. I can now downspike as I would in Sm4sh, if I wish, although, choosing when to use either spike will be the main issue. Either way, upon realizing I've got 2 dspikes with Sonic now, I forgave literally every nerf that he got. Also, I sometimes make the mistake of hastily c-sticking down as a way to escape an onslaught in the air and get back on the ground. The fact that dair is slower means I can more easily pick up on and correct my mistakes if I do this and miss the platform or am already off of the map.

DAir has had a spike on startup since at least 3.0, maybe even 2.6. It's not on the changelog because it wasn't a change.

 

[MWEX]

You guys, sonic is still good. Learn to adjust.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

You guys, sonic is still good. Learn to adjust.

Well on stage I play him similar to my 3.02 style the problem is his Recovery thats all I'm gonna adjust to it a little more its smart for me to focus on my Secondary Snake tho

 

[Solharath]

I cannot believe that the engine changes made SideB even more effective on spacies. And... Diddy Kong, for some reason. Gimp setups at center stage if you catch them in air.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I cannot believe that the engine changes made SideB even more effective on spacies. And... Diddy Kong, for some reason. Gimp setups at center stage if you catch them in air.

But can Spacies crouch cancel shine out of it or Up B as Diddy or no

 

[Solharath]

Well I did add the stipulation of 'catching them in the air'.

CCShine is still a thing to fear on a grounded opponent, but if before they could be caught not CC'ing and then start to CC as they were in the middle of the move at low percents. I was far too successful with side-B dragging high-placing spacies yesterday that if you catch them sleeping, they won't be able to interrupt anymore. They can, sadly, sometimes have an angle where they grab the ledge for free, but thems-the-breaks.

 

[CryoGX]

DAir has had a spike on startup since at least 3.0, maybe even 2.6. It's not on the changelog because it wasn't a change.

Ah. Then the fact that it's a bit slower allows me to use it much more effectively as a spike then >.<

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

About the recovery one more time, I did say that if your opponent is smart enough to stay outside of Homing attack range,. But thats awesome ti know about side-b so you can act quicker!

Also, the hardest part i was having was hitting people with downb and not flying past them. because before as you got near characters Id turn the downb so that i was slowed down enough so that when i jumped i was right there for an aeirial. But now if I do that, it just means I wont have a hitbox. However if pressing L to brake can slow you down and you can jump out of it and you dont lose your hitboxes, theeeen things might still be looking good.

I was super negative in my other posts, but I by no means will be dropping sonic as my main. His speed is far too fun to play with.

Oh amd has anyone else noticed how amazing his CC dsmash is? Its melee Luigi/sheik good. Amd the dair spike is great. His jc grab is still awesome, his throws are still great and his fair meteor miiight beeasier to hit now. Overall, Im a little sad, but sonic would probably be too OP if left untouched.

 

[DireDrop]

Yeah, stopping down B on hit is pretty useful. It usually sets up for a tech chase, or something cool. It's especially useful on stages where platforms stop you from jumping and dairing after hitting with down B.

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

Ok, So I just tested it, downb braking is absurdly laggy. Every combo will be dropped if you try to use L or R to stop, even right as you hit them. There's no way to have downb jump straight up anymore and hit people, which blows, but sonic still has other tools, but downb into aerials is gone until much higher percents.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FrKp7duLyY&list=UUAB3V5qkvUKbjygS2IgibVw

His Neutral game is pretty good its just the Recovery he either has a high Up B, Down B and then dair on stage or Side B to the stage or edge.Edgeguarding is a little nerfed but he is pretty strong at doing it tho.

 

[CryoGX]

JEEZ

I just lost to one of my hallmates like 3 times in a row with Sonic, and I'm generally feared by anyone on hall when I play him.

This is definitely a challenge that will take a while to overcome, but will be overcome, nonetheless.

I guess I'll have to give some of their complaints in the past of "Sonic's too OP/is utter BS/is cheap" some merit now that he's been nerfed. xD But as I said: this is a great challenge; getting good with a nerfed Sonic will truly strike fear into the hearts of my friends >:D

 

[Ariyo]

I welcome these changes. He feels underwhelming at first, sure, but it falls in line with most of the cast. There's a lot more risk involved, and makes Sonic so much deeper and entrtaining than his previous iteration. Going for HAs offstage feel stylish and risky, and the reward is pretty substantial against the nerfed recoveries. It's beautiful.

My only gripe are his lack of movement options. There was a lot of time spent in the lab with platform tricks and spin shenanigans, and it's a little sad to see it go. I'll be spending a lot of time in the lab with this character now to adjust to the changes, but if anything were ever to be tweaked, I'd love to have the weird lag from side-B'ing off a platform reverted to old. Feels clunky and restrictive for no reason.

 

[Motobug]

I'd love to have the weird lag from side-B'ing off a platform reverted to old. Feels clunky and restrictive for no reason.

Well it was changed for a reason-the autocombos that came out of it were disliked (like all autocombos) and they wanted to change it. I do miss it too, though.

 

[Vultron]

Well it was changed for a reason-the autocombos that came out of it were disliked (like all autocombos) and they wanted to change it. I do miss it too, though.

What's wrong with SideB off the stage? I haven't tried anything with it yet.

 

[mtmaster]

Despite the nerfs since he is the only character I know how to use I am slowly teaching myself how to use this new Sonic. He may have a few of the things I am used to doing, but I think I may be able to use him well enough. I complained about the nerfs, but now that I have gotten a chance to play for a few hours, I think its NOT that bad. The one thing I have to work on is consciously not doing what I would normally do as I keep trying to go for things that Sonic can't do and get punished or kill myself as a result. His spring seems to go higher now to compensate for his recovery nerfs (may be my imagination), also I realized that if someone dodges you while homing attack, you pass through them, but you can go use your spring right after so that is something to note.

 

[Motobug]

What's wrong with SideB off the stage? I haven't tried anything with it yet.

It doesn't edge cancel immediately anymore (takes a second) and you have to wait longer to jump out of it offstage.

 

[Vultron]

It doesn't edge cancel immediately anymore (takes a second) and you have to wait longer to jump out of it offstage.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? Ugh, This is like taking Batman's utility belt, and leaving him a seat belt instead, so many useful things gone.

 

[Ariyo]

Well it was changed for a reason-the autocombos that came out of it were disliked (like all autocombos) and they wanted to change it. I do miss it too, though.

I don't understand why that would be the case, you can still carry fast-fallers as you always could. Gimping hasn't been hurt by the lag, it just makes platform movement uncomfortable and nonexistent.

 

[Jaguar360]

That Jet Set Radio costume makes all the nerfs worth it! Seriously, that costume is just spectacular. Beat Sonic for top tier.

Sonic's recovery has definitely taken a hit. Careful use of the Homing Attack helps a bit, but Side B is nearly useless for recovering now. Horizontal recovery is much harder for him in this version. I also find that I can't combo out of Spin Charge as easily.

However, I like the down aerial spike and I think Up smash may have gotten a buff to its K.O. potential. Overall, I'm still enjoying Beat Sonic and he seems somewhat solid.

 

[Solharath]

The nerfs are... hard to deal with for long time Sonic mains who actively and always used those wonderful things they took away from us, but in the end...

I agree with this patch. EXCEPT the Uair nerf. Now Sonic has very obvious looking frames in which he is still attacking, but there is no hurtbox anymore, and it looks wrong. I would recommend the PMDT either tweak the animation so it doesn't look weird or add a 'flub' hitbox. I do feel like the side-B edge-cancel animation looks wonky and is a bit over-obvious with its existence as a 'this is a nerf to the previous mechanic.' Maybe if they made it LOOK better, aesthetically.

So I'm not leaving Sonic's side. Just gotta stop SDing. I'm still gonna take names, practice, and be respected. Look out for me at KZOO Championship this week!

 

[DireDrop]

Oh hey, uair out of spin dash jump works properly now. yay.

 

[mtmaster]

I think the biggest hurdle for me so far is that I have to stop using homing attack as much, its become a habit for setting up certain attacks for me, and allowing me to recover. I also have to remember going off stage for the kill will get me killed 90% of the time.

 

[Vultron]

I think the biggest hurdle for me so far is that I have to stop using homing attack as much, its become a habit for setting up certain attacks for me, and allowing me to recover. I also have to remember going off stage for the kill will get me killed 90% of the time.

My biggest annoyance with homing attack changes is that you cannot target someone when they have invincibility frames, that and recovering horizontally is now pretty difficult.

Is anyone else having trouble running off stage and doing a reversed spinshot back on to the stage and landing an Uair now? I can't seem to get the timing down for it.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Sonic in 3.5 feels more momentum based (Kinda like Falcon). He has trouble getting in, but has all the tools he needs to pressure and combo his opponents. His spins are still good for what they usually did, just less safe on shield. I also noticed that when you down-b skid-stop after you hit opponent, it can lead to a lot of interesting follow-ups. Homing attack is a risk-reward move now in my eyes, especially Blast attack, if you wanna string it. Another good note I like about 3.5 Sonic is that his gimps got a ton better because of the recovery nerfs. Oh and fair is stronger too.

 

[Imfastsometimes]

Sonic still plays very nice in 3.5 and most his changes either made him play better to the nerfed characters or just gave him different options. However, my only problem is that neutral B away from the stage instantly kills without a target. Now I'm all for nerfing the amount of times you can use the move in the air but I think instead they should've made it so that you can neutral B like 2 or 3 times in the air with hitting a target or the ground/side of stage before you go into special fall