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Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

Wizzrobe

Smash Champion
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Mar 27, 2011
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I feel like I'm having more fun with other characters. I'm not sure yet.
I will be fooling around with others to see which playstyle fits me the most. That's probably okay because it's only a demo yet.

Anyway here is one of my sets from the last smashfest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j85JoDOLI4
Didn't watch whole set but might do it another time.

VS Wolf:
do you know Side B to neutral B on Spacies? basically just do the side B that doesn't jump off the ground and drag wolf offstage them neutral B him as he starts his recovery, it's extremely good.

An example of it is in the first match of this video, I did a lot of grounded SIde B to neutral B and its pretty free on spacies, it works well on Wolf but wolf's recovery has less startup then fox and falco so you got to be quicker with the neutral B. http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23/c/2058641
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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alright so how do I beat sonic

SuperTH consistently wins our local tournaments because we're all bad and none of us know how to deal with his character.

As Sheik, all I've really figured out is to use lingering hitboxes to stuff his spins, then when he stops spinning, just try to be in his face. He usually finds a way to escape though since my pressure isn't airtight. I've found that once Sonic gets any kind of momentum going he's a ***** to stop, so the fact that he can escape from me is really bad.
 

Planet Piss

Smash Journeyman
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The trick to beating any character is not necessarily to attempt approaching where your opponent is currently located in his current state, but to arrive where your opponent is going before they get there (i.e. waiting at the end of your opponent's roll as opposed to rushing at them and getting evaded). Just like with every other character, you beat Sonic this way, except Sonic has such a great range of movement that one can't really tell where he, as a character, will end up next.

With this in mind, the first thing you have to ensure is that the Sonic can't get any free spins. None of Sonic's spins have adequate priority; Sonic compensates for his lack of priority with speed and hitstun.

The best way to stay safe from Sonic is to play very defensively; to cover yourself in a shroud of hitboxes, most of which should be able to at least clank with him. Sonic's spins are his best combo starter by far, so if you can avoid getting spun into, you can help stay safe. IMO Sheik loses to Sonic because of his combo/gimp game with her, but with plenty of needles and bairs (the further away your hitboxes are from your hurtbox, the better), you can lock Sonic in combos that he, as a character, has a hard time exiting.

Don't fall for the spin charges, either. They're good mindgames, but they're only abusable when Sonic's opponent is clueless. Just drop needles everywhere and don't make commitments (high-lag moves like dsmash or even tilt moves at close range.

Buffer into shield/roll whenever possible; learn to know when Sonic is vulnerable on shield so you can begin combos from unsafe approaches (HA is very punishable on shield; Sonic's shield pressure game is worse in general than it was in 2.1). Look out for Falcon-like jab pressure on shield (which, if you play Sonic and don't do, you really need to).

The smarter you play, the more the Sonic gets shut down and the more doable the MU becomes. Just remember that most of Sonic's strengths come from his mobility, so if you can hault his movement, you can beat him.

That should be all you need really, I also live in a region that gets upset over the Sonic MU, but certain players are beginning to understand the MU and it's getting pretty scary for me.
 

Tero.

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There is no. ****ing. Way. Sonic has even the slightest advantage against Sheik.
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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inb4 nair/bair

Thanks for the advice, Planet Piss. Seems to be generally what I thought needed to happen, I just need to execute better I guess. Things will get easier once I get more MU experience.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Wizzy, I was watching you and I noticed you finish a lot with nair out of what looks like a down b. Do you wavedash and then jump to get the vertical jump, or is there some other way you get them to pop straight up and finish without moving forward (just up)?
 
D

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Guest
Thanks so much. Sounds like I was just over complicating things.
 

Wizzrobe

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Its just down b Jump nair
I think he was talking about the down b, wavedash down, jump nair.

When you down b into your opponent it will pop them up in the air, so the moment you hit them with your down B you can wavedash down and jump up and nair them which is the best way to combo.

Or you could just down b Jump nair like tero said, although, it doesn't combo it's the best kill move.

The only time the down B doesn't pop them up in the air is when they Crouch cancel it, but most people don't CC it.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
So the wavedash jump nair version is for continuing combos and Tero's move is for finishing. Does the wavedash version combo into moves like fair and homing attack? When you wavedash at impact, does the knockback change into just vertical knockback? When I do the non-wavedash move, the opponent is knocked slightly up and forward, which is why the non-wavedash nair finisher is so effective.
 

Planet Piss

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So the wavedash jump nair version is for continuing combos and Tero's move is for finishing. Does the wavedash version combo into moves like fair and homing attack? When you wavedash at impact, does the knockback change into just vertical knockback? When I do the non-wavedash move, the opponent is knocked slightly up and forward, which is why the non-wavedash nair finisher is so effective.
The wavedashed spin gives you more hitstun and damage than just spinning through the opponent. The knockback trajectory is pretty similar though, the only difference is that you can perform (and have enough time to do) ground moves like fsmash or utilt.
 

Needsmorespin

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I'm worried, could someone tell me what changes they were talking about making to Sonic, I'm worried this might end up a 2.1 Ike case, were they nerf something that didn't need to be nerfed, that or they may wound his approches
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I really don't think they will end up nerfing Sonic like they did to Ike. Ike, for one, was incredibly difficult to play against, and the person who figured out how to play with him (Vro), Had really incredible success with him. He wasn't just good, he was dominant. Vro beat several huge names with Ike, and since they nerfed him, he has almost fallen off the face of the planet. Sonic is nowhere near as dominant as Ike was. He is simply fast, not powerful. Compared to the raw strength of Ike, Sonic pales in comparison. Additionally, the amount of skill needed to play Sonic at the level Wizzrobe does is pretty high. Wizzrobe himself has said that 2.1 Sonic was better, so for him to have had success with a "worse" Sonic validates his skill. Again, Vro has all but vanished after Ike got nerfed. Finally, Sonic has already been modified slightly, and the PMBR seems hesitant to change him. Just because a lot of people claim he is unfair when they lose does not mean the PMBR will think he does not fit into the Melee atmosphere of Project M.
Just my 2 cents.
 

Wizzrobe

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I don't know how he is getting nerfed but I figure it would be something to do with his spin since it's the biggest complaint about Sonic.
 

Tero.

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Im pretty sure we wont be able to hold down b in place anymore. It will probably be more like side b so we can't "spin camp"
I don't think there should be more nerfs tho. I mean its not like Sonic is Falco-good (or Fox, or Pit, or Sheik)
 
D

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Guest
Im pretty sure we wont be able to hold down b in place anymore. It will probably be more like side b so we can't "spin camp"
I don't think there should be more nerfs tho. I mean its not like Sonic is Falco-good (or Fox, or Pit, or Sheik)
If Armada keeps playing Pit the way he has been, we should definitely see Pit nerfs. His projectile, when combined with the hitstun of most of his moves, makes him incredibly powerful.
 
D

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I feel like not being able to spin camp would not be too bad. It would take away from Sonic's shield pressure, but I think he has other ways to compensate for that. Being able to go straight into a high speed spin would be pretty useful too.
 

Wizzrobe

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If Armada keeps playing Pit the way he has been, we should definitely see Pit nerfs. His projectile, when combined with the hitstun of most of his moves, makes him incredibly powerful.
Yea, but people are unsure if it's just Armada being amazing or pit too good.

I think pit will get minor nerfs though at some point and so does Armada.

Also, I do think spin camping is the issue.
 

Armada

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If Armada keeps playing Pit the way he has been, we should definitely see Pit nerfs. His projectile, when combined with the hitstun of most of his moves, makes him incredibly powerful.
Keeps playing = Keeps winning? ;)

Wizzrobe: Yeah I do think Pit will end up getting nerfed but I don't think it is necessary (Do not mean you tried to say that but still).
I think if anything they should focus on make some of the worse chars better.
 

Tero.

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Yea, but people are unsure if it's just Armada being amazing or pit too good.
More like both.
Obv Pit is very, very good. I've been telling people since January.
Plus the best Player in the world playing him = almost broken.

I do think he only needs some minor nerfs tho, like a little bit less knockback on upB and Usmash and he'd be fine. Top tier yes, but not Game breaking.

Edit: also good News: im sticking to Sonic. I'll be having Lucario as a secondary and dropping all other characters. Gotta learn how to taunt cancel during Combos :D
 

Arcalyth

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Also, I do think spin camping is the issue.
Why? Is that one strategy really so powerful that it deserves to be nerfed somehow? Would that actually improve the character?

Now, I really don't know much about Sonic, so I'm genuinely looking to be educated here. I see more issues in Sonic's ability to attack from any angle pretty much whenever he wants if you don't pressure him perfectly, and how those attacks will chain together with seemingly no hope of escape. Of course, I know that's how a lot of my newer friends feel about Sheik so there's gotta be something I'm doing wrong. How much would good SDI help? Are there tech options that Sonic /can't/ cover? How do I stop his momentum when he can punish something as quick as my jab? Why is he able to pressure me so hard (especially shield pressure... the other day my friend ledgedrop down-B'd into my shield and broke it before he even crossed me up, I raged really hard) and why can he go all the way out to the blastzone and still safely recover (the reason they nerfed Pit's glide)?
 

Planet Piss

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Not the guy you were talking to but...

How much would good SDI help?
I'm sure SDI would get you out of many of Sonic's combos but there hasn't been enough time for anyone to really get good at doing that against Sonic like they do with ICs or Fox. At least, I haven't seen anyone do it yet. Definitely something to practice.

Are there tech options that Sonic /can't/ cover?
Sonic's speed makes him easy to tech chase with, so most of the time you can just charge spinshot and it will hit them. You can be unpredictable, though, and make it hard for him to react. If you know you're going to get hit you have to do some mixed DI sequences like you would against Marth in order to get out of combos and not die at the end. Honestly though, that down b charge is pretty gay and unnecessary.

How do I stop his momentum when he can punish something as quick as my jab
That's a bit of an exaggeration, lol.

Why is he able to pressure me so hard (especially shield pressure... the other day my friend ledgedrop down-B'd into my shield and broke it before he even crossed me up, I raged really hard) and why can he go all the way out to the blastzone and still safely recover (the reason they nerfed Pit's glide)?
1. I could say the same thing about other characters that are good with pressure, can't I? I've been shieldgrabbed and naired oos when I thought I was safe. Try angling your shield so it doesn't burst from stuff like that.
2. Because he has a good recovery which (I believe) doesn't need nerfing because it is still predictable on the player-player level. I have friends who are so confident and good at edgeguarding Sonic that recovering above the stage is becoming risky. Just be patient and learn the MU; I swear it's not as dumb when you realize how to play successful defensive styles.

To get hits on sonic, predect his movements. Yeah he's fast, but all that means is you have to adjust how fast it will take him to get to you. Learn to recognize HA startup and timing and smack him out of it (it's a fully-commited move and has pretty much constant timing. Understand how little priority Sonic has and use a lot of projectiles and large hitboxes to stun him, from which point he's easy to combo to a high percentage because he's not great at escaping anything either. Do the same for his recovery; account for it's longness and speed and don't get caught off gaurd every time and john about Sonic being too good to beat. Yeah, I think he's probably top tier, but defeatable if you're experienced and smart.
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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Planet Piss said:
That's a bit of an exaggeration, lol.
Sonic makes me want to an hero XD

Thanks for the advice. I really wish I had a good Sonic to practice with to learn the MU. :(

I didn't actually know (or really realize or think to.. think about) any of those vulnerabilities. Guess I have some work to do.

When I can see HA coming it's stupidly easy to beat. My problem at the moment is that I get destroyed as soon as I get knocked down, and I can't read/pressure Sonic well enough to not let myself /get/ knocked down. Practice...

Edit: I still want to know why spin camping is considered so powerful, if someone wouldn't mind explaining that to me
 

Planet Piss

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If I knock you across the stage and you land on the ground and not a platform, all I have to do is charge down b and it covers almost every option- on reaction- because of how fast it is. It also cancels into a wavedash or an aerial on (I believe) one of the first couple, if not the first frame(s). If you tech in place I probably can't do it on reaction, but I can read the tech. Not teching, though, is awful because no matter what you do after knockdown, it's pretty much auto-punish and sometimes auto-death. Sometimes I do downb +dairspike and kill dudes off of one missed tech at 40%.
 

Arcalyth

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Oh. Okay, I guess I didn't realize that was what the problem was. Because everything you described is exactly what I get pwned by. XD

yes plz nerf pmbr sonic 2 gud.
 

Needsmorespin

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...Why have I never done/thought about that, geez that covers so many options, I'm beginning to see why people complain about Sonic
 

Needsmorespin

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...Why have I never done/thought about that, geez that covers so many options, I think I'm beginning to see why people complain about Sonic so much
 
D

Deleted member

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Keeps playing = Keeps winning? ;)

Wizzrobe: Yeah I do think Pit will end up getting nerfed but I don't think it is necessary (Do not mean you tried to say that but still).
I think if anything they should focus on make some of the worse chars better.
Sorry. I didn't mean to sound like I was claiming that Pit was broken. I think him being a great character is good for the game. It would be nice to see widespread play from characters other than the Space animals. That is precisely why I like Project M so much; It allows for people to main characters that normally would be outside the range of legitimacy. Characters like Sonic, Bowser, and Pit make me want to play the game more. What I believe is best is for weaker characters, like Toon Link and GW, to see more buffs. Again, sorry for being unclear.
 
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