Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

[Camalange]

Right now we are not currently discussing the Bowser MU. Please take questions like those to the FAQ or vote in the weekly poll and HOPE your character gets picked.

We sonics mains here love to stay organized, so please understand.

I moved the post because it was originally its own thread and I decided to take it here instead of just locking it.

 

[Sytal]

Hi! I'm new here, so I'm unsure of posting etiquette for this site and all, but if I'm allowed to give my two cents on the matchups here I'd sure like to. If I messed up, smash me.

vs/ (60/40) (Did I do that right?)

It seems a fair bit was said about this matchup already that covers most of it, but I have a few things to add from my experience.

- Arcfire –Annoying and effective, but punishable endlag.

If you get caught shielding it and you're stuck, I've found that dodging in the opposite direction that it is primarily hitting your shield can allow one to get out of it most of the time. Of course, this won't work very well if the move is almost center top of Sonic's shield.

- Thoron/etc.- This one I’m a tad unsure of. I just try to bait it and then rush Robin. Its one of Robins better moves, but also the only real long range move they have.

If its fully charged, one strategy I've found is to distance yourself from Robin. This forces them to do one of, roughly, two things. Approach or fire.

Robin is slow. This doesn’t mean absolutely predictable, but the slower they are the easier it is to get a read on what they’re going to try. In my experience, they will often try air Arcfire or Levin sword more than anything else.

It is important to note that Arcfire, and Levin sword can come out fast. Since Robin is so slow otherwise, this can be disorienting at times. Properly predicting Arcfire and shielding Levin sword can open options for Sonic in approaching situations.

Otherwise, they will likely try to find an opportune time to fire Thoron. I don’t see to many good Robin players doing this often, as holding on to Thoron is often better for the mindgames. But if you do decide to distance yourself from them, watch your back.

-Elwind- Just janky. This move is primarily why I struggle to follow Robin offstage. There are ways around it, but...

The sudden direction change of both shots can easily screw up Sonic's air approach, and can spike. This move does have its bad moments too though. If Robin shoots over the ledge or uses it onstage for some reason, it’s typically a safe punish.

That’s all I have for now. Though I do wish we had some more people commenting on Falco. I don’t see him often, but I’d like to see what people think about this MU.

Also, is it fine to respond to 33percentgod’s post here? Or should we wait till that MU is discussed?
Cause I might have some tips for him.

 

[ARGHETH]

:/ It's probably slightly in your favor. Levin aerials hurt, and Dthrow combos work as well as they usually do on Sonic, but Arcfire, for one, is not going to be used very much in this MU because of your running speed/position and its endlag. Arcfire is particularly susceptible to characters who run quickly and low to the ground, both of which Sonic has. If you see a Robin doing Arcfire and you're not, like, across the stage, run in and punish. Elthunder and Arcthunder are very useful, as Elthunder is very quick and does 10% while Arcthunder, if Robin can land it, leads to lots of stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of Robin's grounded moves are kinda laggy, so on the ground we're going to be using Ftilt and Jab a lot. Offstage, Sonic seems to edgeguard Robin relatively well, but between the spike, Elwind's maneuverability, and Levin aerials, Sonic has to edgeguard Robin carefully.
Somewhere around 55-45 in your favor, IMO.

 

[Sensane]

YO! Here for info on the Falco MU.

My friend and I were practicing, and thankfully he's a Falco main, so I was able to take a few notes on the MU.

• Falco's u-air has transcendent priority over a spring jump. So when he's going for the u-throw -> u-air, this is one of the few times where air dodging is our best defense.
• Lasers and reflector can break through the spin dash/charge, so we'll have to mix up our approach or go airborne. But on the other hand, a Falco main won't always bring out lasers, but it's still something to consider.
• Take Falco to either Dreamland, BF, or Halberd as the low ceilings + Falco's relatively light weight = tons of kill opportunities.
• FD may or may not be the best place to take Falco because laser camping will hurt us pretty badly. Smashville at least has the platform.
• His f-smash brings him forward which should give us an easy[er] time for punishing.
• B-air is super dangerous as it is [probably] Falco's best kill move, which can also break through the spin dash/charge.
• Recovering with Phantasm is relatively vulnerable to spring gimping.
• Stages with platforms are good for us.
• Duck Hunt is a good place to go since the ducks and tree prevent laser camping.
• T&C isn't bad, but I would avoid because of the occasional absence of platforms and overall inconsistent placements.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I am a Falco main, and I heard about this thread.
Tl;dr
Falco's lasers can break through spin dash because of the 1.1.1
Falco is light so you'll have to go to short stages for some easy kills.
this MU is in sonics favor.

 

[Sytal]

I am a Falco main, and I heard about this thread.
Tl;dr
Falco's lasers can break through spin dash because of the 1.1.1
Falco is light so you'll have to go to short stages for some easy kills.
this MU is in sonics favor.

Is it really in our favor? I mean, I haven't fought too many Falcos so I don't have much experience, but is Falco really sodifferent from Fox that it puts the MU in our favor?
Fox is pretty difficult to fight and I know that Falco is a rough clone of him. So I figure that would put us in a similar placement against Falco just like Fox.
Are there any key differences that cause the match to be in our favor?

 

[jordanm43444]

Yea, one huge reason.

Falco has awful frame data on his aerials in comparison to Fox, making punishing him a LOT easier.

 

[Sytal]

Ah. That would make a big difference. Fox's game does tend to be Short hops and aerials, so a lag difference would change things. That would give Sonic a better chance to punish Falco's movement. I guess I see the direction this MU is headed then.

I am a bit surprised that they had Fox take that side of the air game instead of Falco here. I guess the design choice makes sense though. Falcons aren't known for hopping on the ground like smaller birds or something like that. Oh well.
I guess that makes this MU a bit easier for Sonic. Aggravating for Falco though. Good to know.

 

[Sensane]

I guess that makes this MU a bit easier for Sonic. Aggravating for Falco though. Good to know.

Not aggrovating for Falco as lasers can break through spin dash, so more along the lines of difficult. If he can camp than it's somewhat doable, but otherwise is a disadvantage. As long as you don't rely on spin dash/charge than this MU is easy for us. Despite this Sonic is not one of Falco's worst matchup, more alon the lines of like Mario or Pikachu.

 

[Rucent]

Let's head on over to vs and vs!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this.

Spoiler

#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned.

Thank you!

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Does spring knock cloud out of his up b like it does say, Marth? Or does he go through it like Mario for instance?

 

[Login_Sinker]

55:45

I've secondaried (previously mained) Lucas since his release, so I have a bit to say here.

As per usual, this match up can be pretty patient. Lucas is a very reactionary character who will do his best to zone you out from mid range. He does this primarily by using Zair and PK fire. The Lucas player's neutral game will likely revolve around these two moves, as they are his safest pokes, and Zair has potential followups if he hits his opponent while landing with it. In close quarters, he has Jab, Dtilt, and Ftilt. All of these moves are very fast, and Dtilt will usually lead into grab.

You do not want Lucas to grab you. Be very careful with spin dashes (as Lucas can potentially pivot grab them on reaction), and choose your options wisely when close to him. On the topic of spin dash, Lucas is able to Nair you out of it. In my experience, it won't always work, but it's reliable enough that you should be wary of it. Similar to landing a grab, Lucas can wrack up tons and tons of percent off of a Nair. At low to mid percents, the move will lead into itself as well as other aerials.

As for us, I believe we want to play a bait heavy game in general, and be very defensive when we have a significant lead. Lucas can play very safely if he wants to, but you can nail him hard when you force him to commit, particularly to a grab. The FAF being reduced was a huge buff, but it's still quite punishable if you anticipate it. A couple ways you can bait out his grabs:

- Short hop a lot. Typically not the most amazing option with Sonic, but it comes in handy during this match up. Lucas doesn't have any particularly fast aerials to swat you out of the air with, so you don't need to fear jumping around him to much (be wary of short hop Fair/Nair, however). If the Lucas gets antsy, you may be able to punish a grab attempt. If he gets too scared, you can get him with a tomahawk grab of your own.

- Spin Dash > spot dodge. This was something I learned when I watched Komorikiri battle Nairo at Umebura F.A.T. Komo did a lot of spot dodges out of spin dash, which baited out a lot of laggy grabs from ZSS. The same thing can be applied here with Lucas. Most of the time, the other player will likely expect you to cancel spin dashes with shield. Spot dodging immediately can throw them off guard when they try to grab you.

Our biggest advantages in the match up overall are our speed (duh), and superior ability to play safe. Lucas is not particularly quick himself, so it isn't hard for us to run circles around him if the player isn't alert. Additionally, he must commit much harder than us if he wants to get his biggest rewards. Thanks to how fast we are, we have great capability to break through Lucas's zoning and punish him better than most characters. For example, if you predict a PK fire, running up and perfect shielding it (heck, sometimes even regular shielding) will give you an opportunity to punish. However, the exception to this is if Lucas wave bounces PK fire. Should the Lucas player do this, you will have a very hard time punishing it. Being so much faster also allows us to camp quite effectively if need be.

Lucas's biggest advantages in the match up are that he has the potential to kill significantly earlier than us, and he has a better off stage game. Using Bthrow (or even Fthrow) at the ledge, we can be killed as early as 80% with rage. Uthrow kills at roughly 130% with no rage (much earlier if used on a platform), and Dthrow > Uair will kill a little after 100%. Plus, his smashes all kill quite early as well if he gets those reads. We must also be cautious off stage, because there are several tricks Lucas has up his sleeve. Bair and Dair both have the potential to spike us out of our recovery if he catches us at the end of it. Lesser known (but still deadly) things he may go for are FF Nair off stage or PK thunder under the ledge. FF Nair off stage will drag you down without catching you in the final hit, potentially pulling you to your doom. Fortunately, we are not as susceptible to this as most characters since we have an excellent vertical recovery. PK thunder under the ledge can catch the end of our up b fairly well, and it can even stage spike! That could prove fatal if you aren't on the alert for it. It isn't particularly common for that to happen, but it has the potential to take your stock pretty early.

Weighing the two characters strengths and weaknesses against each other, I think Sonic wins, but only by a bit. Both have excellent defensive games, and can camp each other out very well. However, Sonic does it slightly better since it is harder for Lucas to break his defense in comparison to vice versa due to the disparity in mobility between them. As I said, Lucas can kill us way before we can kill him, but only if he commits. We may take stocks later, but we get to remain much safer while doing it, and I think that is a greater advantage than what Lucas has simply because the risk is marginally lower.

So yeah, Sonic's favor, but I don't think it's impossible by any means for Lucas.


VS

I don't have as much to say here since I'm less experienced with it and I'm kind of tired from writing the above essay, but my experiences so far leave me seeing it as 60:40 Cloud's favor. I think this because Cloud's tremendous range coupled with great frame data and damage output makes him a terror to attempt approaching, and he invalidates our defensive tactics somewhat by getting to charge limit for free. Our obvious advantage is that we bop him off stage.

 

[Sensane]

Thank you; these are the matchups I can't stand. Cloud can camp you with ease and out prioritize everything we have and all Lucas has to do is pk fire spam and he wins as we have no way of getting around it. Or at least I don't. I would like help on these MUs.

 

[Sytal]

vs 60:40

I've fought quite a few good Clouds, and I think that this MU is in Sonic's favor ever so slightly.
Its feel like it in reality the MU might be closer to a 55:45, but experience so far has taught me that we seem to have the tools necessary to pressure Cloud at a decent pace.
The most important things I can think to add at the moment:

- Sonic's running shield business can work wonders for approach against Cloud's "Tatsunoko Vs Capcom Zero" energy Slash. Not Limit Break version though.

- Many of Cloud's actions have a fair bit of lag - good for us! Cloud has some notably bad lag frames on his side smash, both on the startup and on the end.

- We can also gimp him with a decently-timed spring. I haven't tested if spring always beats out Cloud's recovery or if it beats Limit Breaker, but it doesn't seem to be too hard to hit Cloud first instead of the sword's hit box.

- Cloud will charge Limit Break any chance he gets. Limit Break mode does give Cloud good buffs other than just damage, so Cloud may avoid B moves while charged. The mindgames. Getting Cloud offstage can force him out of LB mode since his bad recovery frequently demands the use of Up B.

Also, a common Cloud strategy I've seen is:
Jump -> Down B -> (cancel) -> Jump -> Down B
(I think Cloud has to hit Down B again when in mid-air to cancel Limit Break charge.)
Its a strategy that can get free charges if we don't pressure him, but it doesn't have any invincibility frames other than an air dodge.

 

[Tisbomb]

vs 60:40

I've fought quite a few good Clouds, and I think that this MU is in Sonic's favor ever so slightly.
Its feel like it in reality the MU might be closer to a 55:45, but experience so far has taught me that we seem to have the tools necessary to pressure Cloud at a decent pace.
The most important things I can think to add at the moment:

- Sonic's running shield business can work wonders for approach against Cloud's "Tatsunoko Vs Capcom Zero" energy Slash. Not Limit Break version though.

- Many of Cloud's actions have a fair bit of lag - good for us! Cloud has some notably bad lag frames on his side smash, both on the startup and on the end.

- We can also gimp him with a decently-timed spring. I haven't tested if spring always beats out Cloud's recovery or if it beats Limit Breaker, but it doesn't seem to be too hard to hit Cloud first instead of the sword's hit box.

- Cloud will charge Limit Break any chance he gets. Limit Break mode does give Cloud good buffs other than just damage, so Cloud may avoid B moves while charged. The mindgames. Getting Cloud offstage can force him out of LB mode since his bad recovery frequently demands the use of Up B.

Also, a common Cloud strategy I've seen is:
Jump -> Down B -> (cancel) -> Jump -> Down B
(I think Cloud has to hit Down B again when in mid-air to cancel Limit Break charge.)
Its a strategy that can get free charges if we don't pressure him, but it doesn't have any invincibility frames other than an air dodge.

This is good insight to the Cloud matchup, however, do not believe that Cloud will avoid using B moves when LB is charged. Clouds best option is to look for setups into LB CROSSSLASH, and LB FINISHING TOUCH, so look out for that. Also, when Clouds LB is charged, he has faster overall movement speed. He DOES NOT recieve any damage buffs.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I agree 100% with @Pacman9

We only have to set up a trampoline and wait behind it charging high lvl fruits. Trampoline is a MUST between sonic and PAC-MAN. Also Zdrop Galaxian or Melon is a pain for sonic.
Sonic can run through our hydrant , it isn't useless but it is less efective.

I think that our best stages are FD,smashville or Duck hunt, and the best for sonic are battlefield or dreamland. I don't agree with @Pacman9 that Smashville is bad for us against sonic. FD is better , but smashville is OK.

I would say that it is even or +1 for PACMAN. I have a couple of matches Sonic vs PAC-MAN if you are interested.

Pefo is ranked #11 in Spain, he is the best spanish Sonic.

PS: I don't agree with BSP we can use the trampoline near the ledge and sonic can't punish us

Spoiler: Sonic vs PAC-MAN

 

[Sonic Orochi]

If Cloud goes ever so slightly above the ledge with his up B, we can gimp him with a Running Attack. lol

 

[Sytal]

This is good insight to the Cloud matchup, however, do not believe that Cloud will avoid using B moves when LB is charged. Clouds best option is to look for setups into LB CROSSSLASH, and LB FINISHING TOUCH, so look out for that. Also, when Clouds LB is charged, he has faster overall movement speed. He DOES NOT recieve any damage buffs.

I should have clarified a bit in my post, but almost any character that has some form of charge move
(i.e. Mewtwo->Shadow Ball, Lucario->Aura Sphere, WFT->Salute the Sun) will usually want to hold onto the move so that they can play mind games with the opponent. This is true even more so for Cloud who also gets a slight buff when fully charged. It doesn't mean he'll never use his LB moves, but he gets both a buff and also puts pressure on the opponent at the same time.

So Limit Break really doesn't add any slight damage or launch buffs? I was almost sure that they at least had a slight knockback buff or a slight change to launch direction. Am I reading the frame data wrong?

 

[Hath]

60:40

C'mon guys, do you really need help with this one? You trample us. You run too fast for us to zone you and are too fast for us to get any good effective grabs. Up-B can break out of some of our combos. I hate fighting Sonic as Lucas, and for a good reason.

Things to be wary of: Spikes, gimping, and combos

You guys have a very linear recovery. Lucas's Bair is extremely good at covering this option (we don't even need to jump to get it off). Dair also covers your recover, just slightly less potent. When it comes to recovering, Nair can also drag you further away, and Fair can stuff your second jump.

You guys DO have Up-B, but you don't always want to use it. Your Nair's FAF is too low to break the combo, and our Nair strings skyrocket your HP, so do your best to avoid grabs, Up-tilts, and Nair itself.


You guys really shouldn't need to know much from us. Just do Sonic things and we can't do much. P.S. Take what Logic_Sinker as pretty good info.

 

[WrathTheHedgehog]

Cloud wins 60:40 Cloud has limit break thus not allowing us to camp like how we would usually do. Most of Clouds attack either stop spindash or beat spindash. With Correct spacing Cloud can stop all of Sonics options. As most of you should know that Cloud is really good at juggling and with Sonic having terrible landing options thats just a recipe of disaster for Sonic. Might take 80% or even death. I honestly prefer using limit break to keep up with sonic and then combo into limit break cross slash. Limit break allows us to become the 5th fastest in the game allowing us to somewhat keep up with Sonic with no trouble.if you are above 60 and are getting ready to spring down air DONT. Cloud will most likely have a limit break charged and will end your stock with a finishing touch. Sure you could get Cloud offstage and gimp him but the exact same thing goes for Sonic. Spin shot? Answer to that is nair. Trying to spring from below? Answer to that is dair because of its lingering hitbox. Stages you REALLY want to avoid vs Cloud are Battlefield,Lylat,and Dreamland. Thats basically heaven for Cloud. Also one more thing never try to punish limit break cross slash. You will just get punished by d tilt thus setting up for a juggle.

 

[Rucent]

One of 's go-to follow ups after down throw is Nair, which is SDI'able as shown here. Also, DI'ing helps make it harder for him to actually get us with Nair in the first place.

 

[Sensane]

Hey guys, I won't be helping out with the boards his week. Things have been happening and I just need a brief hiatus. I should be back next week.

 

[Rucent]

Hello,

Hey guys, I won't be helping out with the boards his week. Things have been happening and I just need a brief hiatus. I should be back next week.

Although not the correct place to post this, because it's off topic, I do want to say that I hope you have a good time.

Also, agianst if he Clim Hazzard's over the ledge, already used his second jump, and we grab him, then grab release/down throw is instant death for Cloud.

 

[Sensane]

Although not the correct place to post this, because its off topic, I do want to say that I hope your recovery goes easy and well. Have fun.

Thanks.

 

[Rucent]

Let's head on over to vs and vs!
http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-34-35-voting-open.428973/
Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this.

Spoiler

#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned.

Thank you!

 

[FullMoon]

Well I'll just quote this post from Camalange since it basically nailed it.

This match-up is... Interesting, to say the least. I kind of like it. Greninja can play a very hit-confirm oriented playstyle and wrack up serious damage on Sonic once he's in. Greninja is very read based, much like Sonic, but what makes Greninja interesting in this match-up is that he can create a lot of 50/50 situations that keep Sonic low to the ground. This will make most Sonics want to spring away out of instinct, in which case Greninja can either chase with Uairs or punish our landing attempts with Usmash since it has such a large hitbox and can possibly even kill, but at the very least, will wrack up serious damage.

The drawback, however, is Greninja doesn't have a lot of safe moves. Throwing out moves will get him spun up and down, and Greninja has very little tools to deal with a Sonic right in his face other than maybe jab if he gets one in time.

Well timed Shadow Sneaks can help Greninja escape and possibly even turn the tables on Sonic if we go for Spring > Aerial chases.

Down Smash covers the ledge if we try to recover low.

Up-B water idk what you call it things as an edgeguarding tool is pretty ineffective... A smart Sonic will just save their spring if you go for it a lot and even if you do water the spring, we launch so high from it that we can stil drift back and you have to predict and punish our landing. Not, like, totally useless but... Good luck trying to gimp.

Sonic also doesn't seem to have any aerials fast enough to punish Greninja's Dair on shield, so that's a relatively decent option. If we don't shield, you get a clean hit, and if we do, you can escape anyway.

Water Shurikens are only something I'd recommend from the exact opposite side of the stage, as an airdodge read punish, or an edgeguarding tool. Mid range to close range it is useless because SANICSPEEEEED.

So all in all... I'd say this match-up is 55:45 Sonic's favor. Greninja has some interesting tools that can surprisingly handle the hedgehog pretty well. Good combo game, decent ground and air speed for chasing, shadow sneak to escape set-ups, and big damage off hits. He's ultimately held back by a couple things...

Whiffs = big punishes
Difficulty landing KO moves outside of reads, since Greninja won't really be getting edgeguard kills on us
Substitute and Shadow Sneak will help you avoid getting hit by spin but Sonic can almost always react and Spin Jump to avoid being punished anyway

Unless something about his opinion changed since the time we discussed this MU on our boards I think this is pretty accurate.

 

[Sytal]

vs 65:35
This is a difficult match up for Bowser, but its certainly not impossible. Sonic speed can make it a nightmare for him.
Stuff I think is important to remember for taking on this MU:
's tools in this MU:
- Bowser has the "Tough Guy" ability, which means that some weaker moves won't make him flinch. Granted, I think most of our moves are strong enough to bypass "Tough Guy," but be careful.
- Bowser is heavy enough that Sonic's up smash doesn't keep him locked in for all the hits under some circumstances.
- Bowser has quite a few short moves that will override Sonic's spins (provided decent-to-good timing).
Notable ones are: Down tilt, UpB on the ground, DownB on the ground, and Forward Tilt.
- Bowser's UpB can have great maneuverability. Be careful with predicting his recovery route, or he may get back for free.
- Bowser's fire will stop spins, and it can be angled up to disrupt an air assault.
- Bowser's DownB can break shields. Dodge them. DO. NOT. SHIELD.
- Bowser's SideB can create an instant victory clause if he is a stock ahead of Sonic.

's flaws in this MU:
- Bowser is very slow, so its makes Sonic's hit and run tactics harder to counter.
- Bowser's SideB can back fire if Sonic has a stock on Bowser or manages to get away.
- Bowser is very easy to combo on as Sonic. Not only is he a large character, but he is also heavy enough to make combo strings flow easily.
- Bowser doesn't have a large amount of lag frames everywhere, but where he does have them they are easily capitalized on.
For example: If a Bowser goes for a DownB/Dair, its very simple to spot-dodge and punish.
-
I may have more, but that's all for the moment. I want to re-watch a few of my replays first.
I will say that the most difficult s I've fought are the ones that are willing to play the patience game. How Bowser proactively and reactively treats Sonic's spin attacks is important. Bowser will likely need to rely on predictions to win this MU.
Personally, I think Bowser's best option is properly shielding a spin, predicting the action after the spin, and then acting accordingly.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

For , is exceptionally difficult to fight. To curve the amount of Sonics who will preface their opinions with "I haven't fought a good Bowser, but..." There's seven good matches from recently. I recommend watching them because both characters make mistakes and smart plays at the same time.

I like Bowser's use of Usmash against spin dash. The shellguard allows it to beat the move 100% of the time. But that's only assuming Sonic ever actually moves forward with spin dash in the first place. You have to know when to fake out with shield on startup. Fortress is a very safe way to clank spin dash as well, since it requires no sense of timing(rehit rate) and has 6 startup. Fire Breath also commonly works, but only when you don't delay. At Breath's max range, Sonic's spin dash jump lacks the horizontal distance to get over flames and to Bowser with an aerial in time to punish. We can use other moves to clank with spin dash, but they all require an actual sense of timing. Bowser's limbs are intangible during active hit frames, so nothing ever trades or loses. When it comes to other moves, I only think Jab is viable. It's startup is not too slow, and the range at which both characters recoil at is great because Sonic is left within range of a followup jab while nothing of Sonic's can hit Bowser from there. If we ever connect with our jab, we get access to a number of followups, including the dreaded dash grab. This is the only way we can feasibly grab Sonic besides punishing something wildly unsafe.

Sonic cannot seem to kill Bowser. I think the earliest kill in those sets was an offstage Bair at~120%. When you give Bowser this much rage, his high knockback moveset starts taking absurdly quick stocks. So your edgeguards have to be on point. Fortress is pretty reasonable to hit as long as you're not surprised by the various trajectories it can come from. For this MU, we don't dare approach with anything more commital than a jab poke. We just can't hit something that fast. Bowser's primary niche among heavies is his amazing defensive play against opponents that absolutely have no ranged means of combat. But our OoS Fortress is extremely inconsistent for block punishing spin dash during its jump through our shield, so we wait it out and see about covering Sonic's landing afterward. Nobody enjoys fighting Sonic, but we've got a lot of room for error against this low amount of damage and KO power.

 

[Sensane]

All I have to say about this mu is beware Bowser's u-throw; if you don't respect it, you're gonna get rekt. I got cocky once and almost got jv3'd.

I haven't fought a Greninja with Sonic yet, so I'll have to look into it more. Though I think that water shuriken can disrupt our spin dashes.

 

[cstonic]

This match up is pretty free for Sonic honestly, feeling +2 or 6:4 (Sonic's favor)
Probably one of Bowser's worst MUs
Here are some things I've noticed while playing my friend, an amazing bowser, SparkleLanturn (and my pocket bowser that I've had since release)

- Can't land vs Sonic (similar to a lot match ups), once he's in the air, he's eating a lot of percent if you take the opportunity
Be aware though, his dair while being incredibly unsafe on shield, can start killing you easily around 100-110 (depending on stage positioning and rage, theres spike hitbox with a similar timing to ours)

- A lot of bowser's moves are punishable mid range to (ftilt, utilt, dtilt, miss spaced aerials, whiffed moves, etc and more). This creates a bunch of openings for Sonic to punish.

- Not too big of deal but Bowser's side b removes all lag when he lands with it. So, he might try mix up his approach with it or bait you out (Slightly off topic, but to DI his side b, DI downwards)

- Bowser is melee marth in spirit. No really, his pivot grab is very deceptive and can punish more than you think. Example, it out ranges Shulk's nair if done correctly

- Bowser can be camped really hard (because he's too slow smh). So, Sonic with a stock lead on DH (or even just percent lead) can be brutal for Bowser. Its not hard to do on other stages either, it was just an example

- Bowser has no answers to getting combo'd / stringed. Just go in on the punishes

- We win pretty well off stage, just need to be aware if he's recovering high or low. Spring doesn't work against active up b but that doesn't stop our aerials and smash attacks

- Stay away from his grab! Attack him out of it, punish him hard, whatever, just don't get touched. His up throw is incredibily scary. Up throw up air is pretty much unDI-able. Same with his other follow ups at other %s. After the Up throw up air kill percent windows, if bowser grabs you he'll opt for bthrow and fthrow kills.

 

[FullMoon]

Something else to add to the Greninja MU, if you have a charged shuriken thrown against you, don't shield it. Shielding the charged shuriken puts you in a very bad position and if your shield gets hit by the very last hitbox of the shuriken we get a guaranteed dash grab out of it.

Rolling or spotdodging also leaves you vulnerable to Shadow Sneak reads. Best option would be just to jump but at the same time this means you're above us now which is a pretty bad situation to be in.

Bottom line is, don't shield the charged shuriken, just avoid it. We won't be able to be throwing many of them thanks to Sonic's run speed but it can still make a difference.

Also don't get too B-Air happy when we're offstage, if we make a read and use Substitute on your B-Air, you're going to get dunked.

 

[BSP]

I know Pac-Man discussion is over, but more information is never a bad thing, right? I'm pretty sure Camalange can move posts anyway.

PEPESPAIN I didn't get tagged for some reason. Now that I'm here though, I'll comment on what I'm seeing. I'm watching you vs PEFO, and I'm seeing loads of MU inexperience from PEFO's side. He's respecting everything you do way too much and not constantly rushing you down. He's letting you get away with a lot of things that Sonic can punish you for, and it's those punishes that put the MU in his favor.

For starters, he's wasting time by trying to launch the hydrant at you, even when you're a full stage away. I didn't see any times where it was planted and he just ran past it to keep pressure on you. @2:34 , he clearly showed that he isn't aware of fruit properties. He did two back rolls consecutively and sat in shield while the Melon came over. He could've caught it, ran up and shielded it, Ftilted it, etc. Since he doesn't know fruit properties (and by extension, hydrant properties), I know he's going to be feeling a lot of pressure in situations when he really shouldn't. You got an offstage charge to apple -> throw apple KO, which doesn't ever work once someone knows the Pac-Man MU well. He sat in shield for your hydrant setups instead of attacking them or jumping over.

You should be getting punished for trampoline uses like @3:22. Sonic can spin dash combo you for that, and the MU doesn't feel as bad as it should because you're not taking loads of % for setting up. He is respecting your trampoline use too much in general. @5:43, he let you get fruit for free instead of short hopping over the trampoline and pressuring you, which Sonic can do easily. @8:56, he again showcases that he doesn't know how to punish trampoline. He wastes time spin dash jumping over the trampoline instead of rolling into it, getting bounced, then spin charging at you for the free combo. Same deal at @10:40. Trust me, this MU feels much harder when you take 20%+ every time that happens. Worse is the fact that even though he clearly didn't know the intricacies of the MU, the games were still down to the wire.

I know I sound extremely nitpicky, but the details with Pac-Man are everything. The MU looks fine for Pac-Man when he can get setups going, but he shouldn't be able to do that with as much safety as you are. Once the Sonic player understands how the character works, you're going to get punished a lot.

I generally don't like putting top players on pedestals, but there had to be a reason for Abadango never using Pac-Man against Sonic in tournament. I'd be hard pressed to think Pac-Man wins the MU.

 

[Y2Kay]

Something else to add to the Greninja MU, if you have a charged shuriken thrown against you, don't shield it. Shielding the charged shuriken puts you in a very bad position and if your shield gets hit by the very last hitbox of the shuriken we get a guaranteed dash grab out of it.

Rolling or spotdodging also leaves you vulnerable to Shadow Sneak reads. Best option would be just to jump but at the same time this means you're above us now which is a pretty bad situation to be in.

Bottom line is, don't shield the charged shuriken, just avoid it. We won't be able to be throwing many of them thanks to Sonic's run speed but it can still make a difference.

Also don't get too B-Air happy when we're offstage, if we make a read and use Substitute on your B-Air, you're going to get dunked.

I'm gonna add on and say your best bet is probably to run away. The range on it is pretty short. Jump, shield and dodge can all be punished effectively by the Greninja

 

[soniczx123]

Here is a description of vs brought you by out 2nd PR.

Greninja generally struggles with characters that surpass him in mobility, with sonic being one of them. For starters sonic causes a lot of problems for greninja in the neutral due to the fact that greninja has to commit to almost everything he does, barring jab, and sonic can mostly as a knee-jerk reaction initiate a spin dash for a solid 20+% punish every time. The best greninja can punish with in return is like a bair, if the sonic decides to jump after they whiff.

Gimping/edgeguarding sonic is not an easy task either, which is something greninja usually relies on to score ko's. This brings us to the next issue in this matchup. Greninja has a hard time attaining kills outside of hard reads, and the majority of his kill options have either slow startup (fair) or have noticeable endlag (all smashes, shadow sneak). Not to say that greninja doesn't have kill setups, however they too can be troublesome to land on sonic because he's difficult to pin down. This is basically the hardest thing about this matchup.

A typical match usually goes as follows: Sonic essentially punishes an approach / shuriken with spin dash or spin charge, lands a couple of hits, then retreats to reset to neutral. Rinse and repeat and suddenly you're in kill percent and will die from a stray nair or u/b-throw. Sonic outright outcamps Greninja and Greninja has a tough time dealing with it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Here is a description of vs brought you by out 2nd PR.

Greninja generally struggles with characters that surpass him in mobility, with sonic being one of them. For starters sonic causes a lot of problems for greninja in the neutral due to the fact that greninja has to commit to almost everything he does, barring jab, and sonic can mostly as a knee-jerk reaction initiate a spin dash for a solid 20+% punish every time. The best greninja can punish with in return is like a bair, if the sonic decides to jump after they whiff.

Gimping/edgeguarding sonic is not an easy task either, which is something greninja usually relies on to score ko's. This brings us to the next issue in this matchup. Greninja has a hard time attaining kills outside of hard reads, and the majority of his kill options have either slow startup (fair) or have noticeable endlag (all smashes, shadow sneak). Not to say that greninja doesn't have kill setups, however they too can be troublesome to land on sonic because he's difficult to pin down. This is basically the hardest thing about this matchup.

A typical match usually goes as follows: Sonic essentially punishes an approach / shuriken with spin dash or spin charge, lands a couple of hits, then retreats to reset to neutral. Rinse and repeat and suddenly you're in kill percent and will die from a stray nair or u/b-throw. Sonic outright outcamps Greninja and Greninja has a tough time dealing with it.

Greninja doesn't really rely on edgeguarding for kills and his kill setups aren't that difficult. (D Throw -> F-air; D. attack Fair, D Tilt Fair)

 

[Sensane]

vs 65:35
This is a difficult match up for Bowser, but its certainly not impossible. Sonic speed can make it a nightmare for him.
Stuff I think is important to remember for taking on this MU:
's tools in this MU:
- Bowser has the "Tough Guy" ability, which means that some weaker moves won't make him flinch. Granted, I think most of our moves are strong enough to bypass "Tough Guy," but be careful.

Bowser's "tough guy" ability really only works on jabs. But since we primarily approach with one of our spin dashes, this isn't a problem for us at all.

- Bowser has quite a few short moves that will override Sonic's spins (provided decent-to-good timing).
Notable ones are: Down tilt, UpB on the ground, DownB on the ground, and Forward Tilt.

D-tilt and grounded down b come out on frame 11, and f-tilt comes out on frame 10, both of which are pretty slow compared to our tilts which come out on frames 6-7 and our dash attack which comes out on frame 5.

's flaws in this MU:
- Bowser is very slow, so its makes Sonic's hit and run tactics harder to counter.

Bowser is actually not slow at all; he has the 17th fastest running speed and his large body and claws can lead into long range attacks (though to be fair, Bowser will have some trouble keeping up with us regardless).

- Bowser doesn't have a large amount of lag frames everywhere, but where he does have them they are easily capitalized on.
For example: If a Bowser goes for a DownB/Dair, its very simple to spot-dodge and punish.

Even the most mediocre Bowser players outside of For Chumps mode will be smart enough to not use those in neutral unless if occasionally styling, punishes, or reads (and sometimes down b to quickly snap onto the ledge), and even then Bowser has better options for doing so than those moves. Where Bowser does struggle in lag wise are his rolls and spot dodges, which have very short range and like most other rolls have 10-14 frames of vulnerability.

- Bowser is very easy to combo on as Sonic. Not only is he a large character, but he is also heavy enough to make combo strings flow easily.

Nothing wrong with this point at all, but just be wary that Bowser's new combo throw is even more devastating than most other characters, which can rack up to a scary 30% average damage and potentially continue on depending on how the Bowser player is able to string. If successful, he could rack up to 50% damage, all while being safe.

 

[Rucent]

Bowser's "tough guy" ability really only works on jabs. But since we primarily approach with one of our spin dashes, this isn't a problem for us at all.

This also affects our Up Smash, Up Smash is really bad in this match up. Even though up smash is always terrible with Sonic

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This also affects our Up Smash, Up Smash is really bad in this match up. Even though up smash is always terrible with Sonic

No it doesn't, it's just our weight and your terribly built Usmash that causes us to fall out if you're in motion. Nothing of Sonic's is tough guyed.

Also, there is no planet in which we can clock 50% damage off a single throw. The maximum is 30 guaranteed when all hits of Nair connect.

 

[Sytal]

Bowser's "tough guy" ability ....

To be fair though, most of what I listed was stated with spin dashes in mind, not necessarily the entire matchup.
I believe I did say that Bowser does need good timing to get us on them.

But otherwise you did catch quite a lot of parts I missed, so thanks for giving my stuff a touch up.

 

[Sensane]

To be fair though, most of what I listed was stated with spin dashes in mind, not necessarily the entire matchup.
I believe I did say that Bowser does need good timing to get us on them.

But otherwise you did catch quite a lot of parts I missed, so thanks for giving my stuff a touch up.

Np