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Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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Shadowball camping is the draw that makes the MU even, and Blue did none of it. He opted to approach 6WX with full hop Nair.

Approaching with Nair is a humongous no no! I'm suprised he would play so aggressive. That isn't the way to approach the match up, and isn't really Mewtwo's style in general.

If you have Mewtwo questions I'll be up to answer them.

:150:
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Thanks for coming Y2Kay Y2Kay ! Here's my questions:
  • I heard awhile ago that Phasing or Short Hop Air Dodge was a unique technique of Mewtwo's that allowed for more movement/mix-up potential. In a match up where your opponent's run speed is the best in the game naturally and is mostly viewed as a bait & punish character, would Mewtwo be utilizing it more or less in conjunction to Shadow Ball camping?
  • In the case that you were to go up agianst Sonic, what stages would you try to go to, and why? Which stages would you strike and why?
  • Based on watching Abadango's gameplay awhile ago, I noticed that he would sometimes charge his Shadow Ball about half way. Although Sonic can keep pressure on Mewtwo to hinder charging, is there a general perk to the half charged Shadow Ball as opposed to the smaller varient outside of being closer to full charge?
  • The last thing I would like to know is how Nair's hitboxes work. Sometimes I see the move end early and the recipient ends up infront of mewtwo, however there are times where they end up behind Mewtwo.
 

Sensane

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I'll try to answer your questions Rucent Rucent since I play mewtwo every now and then (and because I've been getting a ton of mewtwo experience recently).
Thanks for coming Y2Kay Y2Kay ! Here's my questions:
  • I heard awhile ago that Phasing or Short Hop Air Dodge was a unique technique of Mewtwo's that allowed for more movement/mix-up potential. In a match up where your opponent's run speed is the best in the game naturally and is mostly viewed as a bait & punish character, would Mewtwo be utilizing it more or less in conjunction to Shadow Ball camping?
  • In the case that you were to go up agianst Sonic, what stages would you try to go to, and why? Which stages would you strike and why?
  • Based on watching Abadango's gameplay awhile ago, I noticed that he would sometimes charge his Shadow Ball about half way. Although Sonic can keep pressure on Mewtwo to hinder charging, is there a general perk to the half charged Shadow Ball as opposed to the smaller varient outside of being closer to full charge?
  • The last thing I would like to know is how Nair's hitboxes work. Sometimes I see the move end early and the recipient ends up infront of mewtwo, however there are times where they end up behind Mewtwo.
  • Probably more to bait and punish what we throw out. Fair can kill at stupidly early percents (one time I got killed by one at like 67 with no rage close to a stage's ceiling), but overall I'd say less in conjunction with shadow ball camping.
  • Mewtwo players are really powerful on duck hunt against us. They're also pretty good on stages like bf and dreamland against sonic. Not so much fd since we have a better ground gameand mewtwo just cannot land.
  • Half charged sb is enough to damage us when spin dashing. Also, just try not to even bother pressuring his charging sb very much as he can shield grab you VERY easily. If you go for a grab, it's better so to do that, but just mix up your approach and maybe try to bait a shield and get him to drop so we can go in for a grab or dash attack.
  • It depends on where the opponent is in the nair hitbox. The opponent will land behind mewtwo if he was closer to mewtwo's tail and in front if he was at his chest. It's based on WHERE the opponent is when it's landed, not just simply when it's landed. However, I think you can sdi out of the nair and land behind mewtwo.

I will be posting mewtwo notes either tomorrow or later today. Also, Y2Kay Y2Kay does mewtwo beat rosaluma now with the buffs? I've dropped meta knigt as my secondary and wanted to give mewtwo a go. Also how does he do against fox and zss?
 
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OFY

Sonic main since 08'
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Thanks for coming Y2Kay Y2Kay ! Here's my questions:
  • Based on watching Abadango's gameplay awhile ago, I noticed that he would sometimes charge his Shadow Ball about half way. Although Sonic can keep pressure on Mewtwo to hinder charging, is there a general perk to the half charged Shadow Ball as opposed to the smaller varient outside of being closer to full charge?
Half charged shadowball is more than likely meant as a mindgame and to let the mewtwo player have access to b-reversed shadowball movement on the ground/air. Mained and fought a couple of mewtwos, most mewtwos however just fully charge the shadowball for punishes and dat shield damage.
 
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Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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Thanks for coming Y2Kay Y2Kay ! Here's my questions:
  • I heard awhile ago that Phasing or Short Hop Air Dodge was a unique technique of Mewtwo's that allowed for more movement/mix-up potential. In a match up where your opponent's run speed is the best in the game naturally and is mostly viewed as a bait & punish character, would Mewtwo be utilizing it more or less in conjunction to Shadow Ball camping?
  • In the case that you were to go up agianst Sonic, what stages would you try to go to, and why? Which stages would you strike and why?
  • Based on watching Abadango's gameplay awhile ago, I noticed that he would sometimes charge his Shadow Ball about half way. Although Sonic can keep pressure on Mewtwo to hinder charging, is there a general perk to the half charged Shadow Ball as opposed to the smaller varient outside of being closer to full charge?
  • The last thing I would like to know is how Nair's hitboxes work. Sometimes I see the move end early and the recipient ends up infront of mewtwo, however there are times where they end up behind Mewtwo.
  • This characteristic isn't unique to Mewtwo, but his is special because (a.) he turns invisible and (b.) he can change his aerial momentum during the airdodge. Mewtwo can do a plethora of moves out of his SHAD, such as Shadow Ball, Confusion, Disable, Teleport, Neutral Air, Forward Air, Back Air, and Up air (AKA everything except Down air). He can act out of his air dodge after 5 frames, and his air dodge has a duration of 29 frames,with invincibility ending on frame 24. Phasing can allow Mewtwo to dodge and punish aerial approaches such as short hop aerials. His phase is a great offensive and defensive technique, but if for example, you land with the auto cancel of Fair, you can punish him hard for it. You have to be fast though. A good Mewtwo main will know this, however, so they will most likely mix in empty hops, empty phases, phase tomahawk grabs to keep you on your toes. Also remember that a phase has no landing lag, Mewtwo is not air dodging into the ground if he is performing this correctly. Mainly, this tool will be used to punish approaches, especially aerial ones. Phasing, is very difficult to use on characters with sex kick aerials. The hit boxes of Sonic's Nair lasts for about 38 frames, so this should do the trick. Also, retreating aerials should also punish aggressive phasing as well. Keep in mind that just staying grounded won't stop phasing, however, as Mewtwo can fall with his aerials and still punish you. Phasing and shadow ball camping will make "spin2win" tactics effectively useless (not that you should be doing that anyway). Charging in recklessly and predictably will get you killed. Sonic has astrong mix up game, so he will still be able to stand his own.
  • As for stages, Mewtwo has some devastating traps and set ups on platforms, and can ledge cancel his teleports on platforms. A good Mewtwo should expand on his options and use a good combination of both in neutral ( I'd say about 60-70% shadow ball camping and 40-30% phasing). Phasing isn't a technique you should abuse a lot anyway. Mewtwo is very flexible on a lot of stages, but Final Destination and Duck Hunt are usually his worst, due to the lack of platforms. Also, the lack of a z axis weakens phasing on Duck Hunt, due to his user tag never disappearing on that stage. And Mewtwo can get pineappled on Dreamland.
  • The reason Abadango probably doesn't charge his all the way is because he doesn't want the the "shadow hands" associated with fully charged shadow ball. The aura hands can give it away. 80% charged shadow ball still kills but your opponent doesn't get that free warning that shadow hands gives you.
  • Mewtwo's Neutral Air . . . . deserves a post of its own. the move is very complicated. How you pop out of Neutral Air depends on where you are facing when you are first hit, where Mewtwo's facing when he hits you, and what direction Mewtwo moves during the attack. Keep in mind that Mewtwo fast falling Nair and your SDI
Mewtwo resources:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBaJ0vRWqFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a4p5wY7j4s
http://smashboards.com/guides/mewtwo-a-guide-to-phasing.888/
http://smashboards.com/guides/mewtwos-nair-knockback-and-all-of-its-uses-and-forms.856/

:150:
 
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Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's discuss :4sonic: vs :4duckhunt: and :4sonic: vs :4dedede:!

Click here to vote for the next match ups to discuss!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
 

jordanm43444

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:4duckhunt: 60:40​

MATCHUP DESCRIPTION
This MU is easily a huge pain for Duck Hunt, he needs a lot of breathing room to get anything going, especially his projectile game. However, Sonics speed easily helps him get in quickly and stay in a position Duck Hunt does not want you to be in, due to his less than average frame data and bad grab followups (though they are still great for stage positioning.)

One thing to be very careful of is by far the can. ESPECIALLY when you are offstage and trying to recover, but since the can falls at a steady rate once you avoid it you should be clear to recover.

Once you get DHD offstage you can easily edgeguard him due to his UpB having no hitbox, the only option DHD really has to cover himself is the can.

STAGES

The best stages to take DHD to are, Final Destination (limits his ability to run and camp), Town & City (Platforms are constantly moving and dissapear sometimes) and finally Lylat Cruise (as the stage tilting can mess up DHDs projectile game very cleanly.)

The best stages to avoid for DHD are; Battlefield, Dreamland and Duck Hunt, as these stages all give DHD more than enough space to run around and camp with various projectiles.


VOD'S
I dont have a VoD of myself playing the MU but I will link this one from my locals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxKqbZ7jrxc


:4dedede: 60:40​

Yet another easy MU for Sonic, DDD is a huge combination of things Sonic loves to beat up. Huge hurtbox, bad frame data, terrible keepaway game and is one of the fastest fallers in the game.

(Ill write more on this one when I get the chance, someone remind me on twitter or something later on :c)
 
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Hyruled

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As someone who mains both :4sonic::4duckhunt:, I know a little bit about this matchup. As suggested above, sonic wins 60-40 due to DHD's inability to get momentum with projectiles. DHD's best option from what I can tell is to have a can out at all times. If DHD has the can out, he can down tilt, forward tilt it or dash attack it on reaction to spin dash. This usually breaks spin dash if you can hit it directly. Other than that, however, DHD doesn't have much to counteract any of sonic's approaches. Sonic is actually forced to approach in this matchup, which might seem different at first for sonic players (like me) who try to stay back and only wiff punish. DHD can put out his gunman, but it isn't too effective because dash attack and spin dash go through him.
 

Sensane

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Don't you think you're rushing into this a little too quickly? Eh, whatever.

Dunnobro told me that Sonic is Duck Hunt's second worst matchup behind fox, but dhd can compete against us on stages like bf and dreamland but near unwinnable for dh on fd and sv.
 

Ax^2

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Sonic can punish DDD's laggy attacks with his speed quite easily if you bait them to wiff an attack. You can knock his gordo right back at him with a well timed Spindash or spincharge, making for some interesting situations.
 

Sytal

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Its important to remember that with Sonic's spins, only certain parts of the spins will properly knock the gordo back.
If DDD catches you in the middle of a spin with a gordo, the gordo's hitboxes can override the spin's hitboxes, and we are basically a rolling hurtbox at that point.
However, I don't know the extent of the specifics on this. Does anyone else here know when our hitboxes knock the Gordo back? Or how much damage is needed to knock it back?
 

PeliPenguin

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Its important to remember that with Sonic's spins, only certain parts of the spins will properly knock the gordo back.
If DDD catches you in the middle of a spin with a gordo, the gordo's hitboxes can override the spin's hitboxes, and we are basically a rolling hurtbox at that point.
However, I don't know the extent of the specifics on this. Does anyone else here know when our hitboxes knock the Gordo back? Or how much damage is needed to knock it back?
Spin Dash knocks back Gordo very consistently. They actually got a range and % threshold nerf a while ago so they'll never beat it. Gordo's get reflected by any hitbox that does at least 2% which as afaik means gordos only beat fair and usmash multihits.
 

Sytal

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Spin Dash knocks back Gordo very consistently. They actually got a range and % threshold nerf a while ago so they'll never beat it. Gordo's get reflected by any hitbox that does at least 2% which as afaik means gordos only beat fair and usmash multihits.
Thanks for the tip. I know it kills my Fair all to well, so I guess I just have to figure out what I'm doing wrong with my spins.
It has been a while since I fought a DDD though. I'll run some tests later today to check that.
 

Ax^2

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How about the VSDJ? How does that do against the gordo?

:4dedede: : This guy is just combo food. You can rack up % not too hard at all. Of course, he can just get the same amount of damage on us in a few hits. It can be a struggle to take his stock due to his weight, he can survive until pretty high percents which allows him to utilize rage as well, so be careful and watch out for his attacks. Watch out for his smashes, all of them pack a punch. Other than that, we got this in the bag.

I personally find edgeguarding this guy to be a bit tedious. He has 5 jumps and an up B that has super armor and goes pretty high and spikes at the apex as well as coming down if you're under him. Knock him out of his jumps as best as you can to get him as far away from the ledge as possible so his up B won't reach. If YOU are getting edgeguarded, watch out for his gordo as it can stick on to the ledge, making it impossible for you to grab it until it disappears which can be very nasty. Bait him and make him come to you, his approach is just horrendous against us imo.


just my ideas. correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Djmarcus44

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The Gunner boards have just finished discussing the Sonic matchup on the Gunner MU thread. We think that it is even to a slight advantage for Sonic, but we would greatly appreciate your input. We could also use your help on figuring out the priority of spindash, and the best time to challenge the move.
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's discuss :4sonic: vs :4palutena: and :4sonic: vs :4ganondorf:!

Click here to vote for the next match ups to discuss!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
 

-6WX-

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The Gunner boards have just finished discussing the Sonic matchup on the Gunner MU thread. We think that it is even to a slight advantage for Sonic, but we would greatly appreciate your input. We could also use your help on figuring out the priority of spindash, and the best time to challenge the move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOiFACWTxYE If you needed a game to watch of the MU being played out.
 

jaimex2

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Can you also explain why Sonic's spindash can sometimes go through projectiles without taking damage?
Our hitbox is lower ( think crouching ) when were in spin.
Sonic is invulnerable for a small window during the first frames of Spin Dash. ( the start of the hop in the move )

There's no such thing as priority in Smash 4. There's a 9% threshold on the ground however.
If a move does 9% more than another move it will outright beat it else it will 'clank' and they will cancel out.

In the air all moves trade regardless of damage.
 
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SageLynch

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(sorry for my english ,you're free to correct me ) The ganondorf match up is so boring to play and to watch : you are forced to play a bait and campy game as much as possible, you need to wait for your opponent to pull off his punishable moves(aggresive styles are not effective, trust me... ) ; if you lose your fisrt stock you are fuc... coff ... i mean ... you are in troubles , he can camp you at the ledge , forcing you to engage where he wants to and with rage he can take both your stocks easly with the right moves. Even with 1-1 stocks he has more advantages than you cause you can edgeguard him only with your up-b in order to avoid his side-b off stage. Dont fall for the cheap trick with his up-samsh that seems to have lag but trust me.... it dosent .... he can follow up with something fast like a down tilt or jab. In order to deal damage just... SPAM your side be at the right distance (out of his side and down b range reaction basically) and dont challenge his moves with your neutral B please... 12-6 dmg is nothing compared to the risks you are taking with that move against a ganandorf.
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's discuss :4sonic: vs :4charizard: and :4sonic: vs :4drmario:!

We'll talk about:4samus: &:4jigglypuff: in two weeks.

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
 

Sensane

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Charizard is kind of a free win for sonic. He's combo food, very few of his moves are safe to use, and and he's easy to gimp. Spring gimping is his worst nightmare. The only real edges he has against us are flamethrower edgeguarding (which is never a big deal unless you're diddy, bowser junior, or if you're just bad at recovering), fly oos, and platforms can help him kill earlier with up throw. Aside from that, he's basically a less threatening bowser; fight him like you would bowser, only add in some "get him offstage and spring gimp".

Doc is basically just another mario. Both figuratively and literally. The only differences is that doc has slightly better punishes, a stronger oos game with up b, nair isn't the most effective as a combo breaker, and doc has an even harder time with spring gimping. Oh yeah, and hovering above pills won't get you very far because they bounce so high that jumping ove them just won't do.

Along with luigi, characters with bad recoveries (minus cloud because limit and air speed), and possibly ryu and zss (in theory), both of these characters don't have a ton of options against spring gimps.
 
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Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's discuss :4sonic: vs :4samus: and :4sonic: vs :4jigglypuff:!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
 

Sytal

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Since we're not getting much activity here, I'll offer my input for these two.
:4sonic: vs :4jigglypuff: 60:40
I've not had many matches against skilled puffs, so I don't have much to offer here. As far as I have experienced, this isn't too difficult of a MU for Sonic.
Things to note:
- Jigg's aerial hitboxes have short range, but the lingering hitboxes can be deceptive.
- Sing's range is slightly larger than the visual hitbox and it can reach above and below close platforms.
- Rest and combos that lead into rest. They are pretty hard to pull off, but they can kill early if they do land.

:4sonic: vs :4samus: 55:45
This is one MU that I'd like to see some discussion on, as I struggle with it a bit.
However, I do think that we can pressure Samus adequately.
Things to note:
- Powershielding is fantastic here, but be sure to stay out of grapple range when taking a projectile.
- Charge shots are a threatening presence for us in a match, so applying pressure to keep her from charging is important.
- Samus can tether, but we can comfortably gimp her otherwise
- Samus's bombs can allow her to smoothly change her aerial trajectory.

That's all I have for now.
Hopefully we can get some more discussion going again.
 

Sensane

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Puff is beyond easy money; it's basically the kirby mu only we have less to worry about.

Samus I feel could be kinda similar to the mewtwo mu in which charging a charge shot could be used to force us to approach. The only reason why I feel we beat samus is because she can't land very well and while we can't either, it's not like she can catch our landings with something reliable because her up smash can be SDI'd out of, screwattack can get her punished if it whiffs, and all of her other moves are either too slow or can't keep us in the air; so her only good option is uair, which we can beat with dair.
 
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Rucent

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Hey everyone! Rucent here.

I'm currently making a complete overhaul on the OP of this thread.
This is to make everything more organized and concise with the current meta.

During the meantime, I am going to revive this thread. Let's revisit the first match up discussed on this thread.

:4sheik:
Previous Disscussion

To help with organization, I would love it if you set up your posts like this:

[Character]
[Ratio]
[Description]
 
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Speedbraker211

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:4sonic:Sonic vs :4sheik:Sheik
50:50
Here is everything I know about this MU. I updated this paragraph because I found more stuffs.
Sheik struggles at killing Her strong point is the neutral Sheik will outplayed us with nairs bairs and fairs In this MU I would have to agree with wrath and is to camp sheik since She struggles at killing and we struggle at getting our kill set ups while needles are still on deck but try to not get hit by needles since it deals a lot of damage and sheik could kill us with needles into bouncing fish. Another way to play against Sheik that I use is playing it patience and don't approach her too often since she eats many our approaches with her frame data. Needles has endlag try to use HA or Jump Spin dash to punish. When sheik is combo in you, Up b never airdodge at low percents because she gets re grab and gets more combos Avoid stages like T&C. The reason is we can kill at low percent but Sheik beats us with her frame data that Imo you could get down throw up air at low percents. FD is also a bad stage for Sonic since sheik can still camp Sonic with needles and it limit our approach and landing options. Plus in FD Sheiks can control the stage better than we can because her neutral is better than us. Also NEVER airdodge Sheiks throws or tilts at higher percents those are her kill set ups. If you do then GGs Nair is her best tool in the MU try to not punish that because they can autocancel with jabs or tilts. Best way to punish sheik is when she miss her bouncing fish, Side b or makes a mistake like a bad read or dair on stage because Sheik's dair has a lot of endlag. Ftilts are also a combo starter since it can lead into many things such as Fair, Nair and possibly Falling up air into a re grab try to DI Away from her and up b. When landing don't dair to often since they expect that a lot try to mix up your movement Airdodge if you're to high from the ground Or try to grab the ledge. When you are getting up air at kill percents best way to DI is the direction she is facing and down away. BF, DH and SV are good stages for Sonic since platforms can help you with landing, Campy and mix up your approaches and get strong leads and early stocks. I'll say BF is your 50/50 or possibly in Sonic favor since it can help Sonic use SHSJ more wisely and platforms help you land safely from sheik's aireals. Lylat is another good stage since the moving platforms are beneficial when it comes with Sheiks campy however landing is a problem since the platform are to close to the stage making it much harder to land. At last for stages, DL is a good stage for Sonic and for Sheik since the tree blows away from Sheik shooting needles and it cause her to camp close to us. But this stage is bad for us since we don't have much space to covers and the wind slows down a little bit our spin dash/charge. Plus getting pineapple is not fun at all. This could be debatable but Sonic advantage could be offstage since he can get early kills with bair and F-smash. Sometimes Dair but you may get punish. With Sonic Go for true combos and don't go to often with 50/50s because any of her aireals will beat few of our options. Short Hop Spin Jump is really usefull in this particular MU since it can trade well with nair or up air if space properly. Spin Bounce or Reverse are great for baiting sheiks approach options. For example: When Sheik is approaching with fairs or nairs, Spin bounce or reverse can make a good use to bait her with a misspace fair or bouncing fish. Spin reverse can catch a bouncing fish near the ledge making a possible bair for the kill. Overall the MU is even or slighty Sonic's favor. It depends on the player that you're facing.
 
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Sensane

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OOOOO!!! I love this matchup as sonic! MUST MAKE NOTES:
  • Spring is your friend against her combos and frame traps (unless if her combos are true combos).
  • ISDJ can help bypass needle camping. Only problem is that you need momentum to get it to work properly and there is a chance sheik could bait you into an up smash, so don't get too accustomed to it.
  • Head to lylat; it was a bad stage for her then, it's a bad stage for her now. Now it's ven worse with the needle nerf.
  • Some of her previously amazing stages like fd and sv are less in her favor, but she can still outcamp us normally.
  • She's a generic ninja; why would you fear that?
  • Some of her aerials beat spin dash, so watch what you do with it.
  • She doesn't leave a lot of room for us to punish, so your best bet would be to bait a grab and then use a jab or tilt to punish her.
  • Edgeguarding her is either cake or rotten apples. Heavily reliant on two frame punishes to properly edgeguard her, but a fair or bair after her down b can work at certain percents.
  • Despite this, there is always the trick where she can use vanish and be immune to the two frame punish.
  • Neutral is ours if we take the first stock, but the same thing applies to her, too.
  • Dl and bf I would avoid. Nothing too bad, but I just feel that she does well on platforms (or at least better than us).
 

Sytal

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Off the top of my head:
:4sonic:vs :4sheik: [50:50]
Since Shiek has gotten a nerf or two, it has gotten easier for us to pressure her. My notes are:
- Be careful when rushing her down. Needles may be nerfed, but they will still stop us at a fair distance if we just rush in.
- We can spring gimp, but if she is recovering horizontally to the stage, it may not be the best idea. The reason being ->
- Bouncing fish is still deadly off stage. I find it best to predict its usage in recoveries, and be careful not to go too deep if she can still use it. Note that it has single use in the air, though I believe she can get it back if knocked back.
- Shiek's side B is situational and is typically used very little. It also will cause her to go into free fall if used in the air. Good players rarely use it, but it's still good to be aware of how it works so that you aren't thrown off by it.
- Her lack of good kill power + our lack of good kill power = longer matches that are focused on hard reads. Knowing the player's playstyle is as important as knowing the character for this MU.
I may add more later. Also trying something different with text color to help separate notes better. Thoughts?
 
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PeliPenguin

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:4sheik:
In this MU the goal for both characters is to remain patient in neutral whilst capitalising as much as possible in advantage.

A good tool for Sheik in this MU is Needles. They keep Sonic more honest in neutral, as they are difficult to react to forcing pre-emptive shields, which the Sheik can capitalise on allowing her to control the game at her own pace. Fortunately, Sonic is one of the better characters equipped to get around them. Because of their range nerf, the Sheik's spacing with them has to be quite tight to make them safe against Sonic, as the move has quite a bit of lag which Sonic can easily punish if they're used carelessly. Therefore, applying pressure and holding stage control against Sheik is very important as to make them second guess themselves with their projectile play.

The best spacing for Sonic in this MU is close enough to pressure Sheik into not throwing Needles whilst also staying out of her immediate burst range. Once you have this spacing you can begin mixing up with spins. Sheik has better buttons than Sonic which can lead into combos, similarly to Ryu, so try to stay away from QCQ and focus on counter poking with moves with decent range (ftilt,bair) or shield grabbing poorly spaced attacks.

Both characters can exploit each others disadvantage. Edgeguarding is unlikely to happen because both characters have difficult recoveries to mess with. Although risky, it is possible to hit Sheik's Vanish before its intangibility starts, as it only kicks in after 19 frames, but this should be rarely attempted. Getting off the ledge against Sheik is tough however, largely because of her nair having a big hitbox, lasting a while and being able to combo into a Bouncing Fish. Always be aware that the Sheik is possibly conditioning your ledge options. On the other hand we have stronger juggling than Sheik does, so be sure to capitalise on her landing, be aware they may mix up with Bouncing Fish.

Kill power in this MU is interesting. Sheik's throws have been nerfed in terms of being able to set up KOs, if you DI away and jump you can escape most of them. The only thing to be aware of is DI mixups with bthrow, which can lead into a fair or BF for the kill, pay attention to their positioning so you can guess when they'll use it. Post patch Sheiks will be more inclined to use ftilt and tipper dtilt to set up an uair for the KO, or will try to read your reaction. Jumping away will again help to avoid most of the set ups, but be sure to mix up. Sheik in general lacks lag, so landing a slow finishing move can be difficult. Having kill throws is really useful, since Sheik's weight in addition to her struggles killing can result in rage throws killing very early, the earliest I've seen be 117% on FD to an uthrow.

The best stage to take Sheik to is Lylat Cruise, because the tilting hinders needle play. Duck Hunt is also a good stage because Sheik can't pressure Sonic in the tree very well. Final Destination and Smashville should be avoided, since the lack of platforms makes needles stronger whilst Smashville's platform helps extend Sheik's combos.

General stuff on Sheik:
  • They can cancel the end lag of Grenade by grabbing the ledge.
  • Bouncing Fish can bounce off of surfaces and present a second hitbox, be aware of it.
  • Spinstool dair works on Sheik and doesn't have to be buffered.
  • When Vanish is used from above the ledge, it ignores the 2 frames of ledge vulnerability.
  • When under platforms stay aware of tipper Usmash, it is Sheik's strongest kill move capable of killing at 70 with rage.
Overall both characters are well equipped to deal with each other's kit, also worth noting is that both characters benefit heavily from a lead. The players of each character are pushed to their limits at high levels of play.

:4sonic:50-50:4sheik:
 

Camalange

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Interesting enough, 6WX thinks this is our worst match-up at 6:4. I would love his insight.

People like to write this match-up off because of "Sheik nerfs" but really it just made needles slightly less amazing and she can't kill with Dthrow. It didn't change her amazing edeguards, her amazing frame data, amazing neutral, etc. Plus, the kill window for Dthrow > Uair was pretty narrow anyway so it wasn't even a huge advantage on Sonic to begin with.

:093:
 

Sytal

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I'm already hearing 'confirmed' dlc rumors for Smash Switch.
That oughta rev up people's smash engines again enough to make this place explode again in a few months.
At least I hope so. I'd like this discussion to continue. More MU data is always welcome.
 

cstonic

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Rucent

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Hey guys! I believe it's time to revive this thread again! I apologize for letting it lay to rest, I just happened to prioritize what was going on in life then.

We were talking about Sheik, but let's move on to a new character:

:4cloud2:

That's right! Cloud will be our next character!

Previous Disscussion

To help with organization, I would love it if you set up your posts like this:

[Character]
[Ratio]
[Description]

//Also, for those wondering, the video adaptions for the Sonic & The Book of Match Ups are still being made! I recently uploaded a guide for :4diddy: on my Youtube! The next project is :4corrinf:, which will be done sometime before May. cstonic cstonic will be helping me out lots with this video and has made an awesome and in-depth document regarding this match up shown above!
 
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