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Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

RudyTutti

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:4sonic:Vs:4dk:
I've been waiting sooo long for us to discuss this matchup! I absolutely hate it (even though we win it)! My main practice partner is a DK so there's a lot about this matchup I have to offer. Some of the stuff may be obvious, so bear with me please!


1.)DON'T GET GRABBED
DK's archetype is a Half-Grappler. This means he gets a lot of mileage out of his throw combos. And his Cargo Throw is monstrous! It's useful for racking up damage, killing (the infamous Ding Dong), and setting up for edge guards. He also has some decent set ups into his grab like his lightning fast D-Tilt and Jab. He can also Cargo Up Throw and wait for us to air dodge for another free grab upon landing! His Dash Attack is also a good mix up and it clanks with our Spin attacks and if that happens to us we need to get out of his range ASAP. If he lands a Dash Attack at low percents, the ape can follow up into a plethora of attacks! I feel that the best way to combat this is by creating space with our F-Tilt and D-Tilt. Another option is our SDC. That will either force him in shied or allow us to rack up damage. Once we've conditioned him to shield we can harass him with our grab game! (Sorry about the length of this paragraph)

2.)He's Just Too Heavy
DK is the second heaviest character in the game, so killing him is a problem. On top of that there's Rage, so him killing us isn't a problem! With that in mind, taking the first stock is key! So how do we do that? Easy (not really)! We exploit that garbage recovery of his! Though it sports a great horizontal recovery, it's vertical recovery sucks! I would suggest SDFJ Dair to put him below his vertical range! Spring is a little less useful in this match up because his Up B can beat it out if our timing his of. Other than that, our usual kill options can do the job if Rage and his percent are high enough.

In conclusion I believe the match is

:4sonic:55:45:4dk:
 
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ToonKake

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:4dk:
The first member of the DK crew is one of the more difficult heavies to deal with, as his spacing options and ability to KO put him above the others of his archtype.

His moveset doesn't really restrict how we play at all, so our usual game of bait and punish or however you play sonic will work as well as it usually does. Bair,dtilt, jab and ftilt are the moves to watch out for in neutral, as DK outranges us with longer limbs which can stop us in our tracks and give him stage control, and everyone knows how fun it is to be in disadvantage against someone as strong and mobile as DK. Although they can be difficult to deal with they're all easy to bait out and punish, so we can control the pace of the match. His weight means he can KO us earlier than we KO him, especially when he has rage and using his infamous ding dong setup, which can KO as low as 50% off a grab, depending on stage selection. We're in serious trouble if he gets an early stock this way, since his survivablity makes it hard to make a comeback. The only way for him to make us approach him is through Giant Punch charging, but Giant Punch is less threatening than something like a Samus Charge Shot so rush down isn't essential, but can be useful.

The key to beating DK is similar to other heavies, which is exploit him as much as you can when hes in disadvantage. DK is one of the easiest characters to combo, he really can't land and his recovery is linear and leaves him open to good edgeguarding. We can also camp him pretty hard, since his own approach isn't spectacular and he lacks a projectile. However, don't underestimate his ability to comeback, be on your toes and stay patient, DK can struggle to deal with a Sonic who stays safe and attacks when he can, overcommiting will get you showered with coconut cream pies.

General stuff on DK
- His Upb on the ground has armour on start up, keep this in mind as he can use it if he reads an aggressive approach
- Giant Punch can be B-reversed in the air as a movement option, be aware of patterns
- When offstage with him, keep in mind he has many spikes including fair,dair,sideb and downb, all of them are fairly telegraphed
- Side B and Down B can deal heavy shield damage, downb is very dangerous if he corners us especially
- His approach in the air when he is facing you is really bad, more often than not they'll have their back to you so they can bair you, pay attention and you can tell what he's up to
- His Utilt can cover platforms very well, be careful he catches you on there

:4sonic:55-45:4dk:

:4feroy:
Roy is a speedy swordsman who doesn't focus on spacing, but rather a powerful close up game. On paper that sounds like he's quite powerful but fortunately he is pretty simple to deal with.

Roy lacks a projectile and has no way to make us approach him. However if he gets the lead then he can use nair, dtilt and jab in an attempt to keep us out. They do a good job of blocking spin dash, but Roy's sourspots means if we run in shield he is very easy to shield grab out of his attacks so he ends up playing a very heavy mixup game due to the lack of safety in his neutral. As such, its very easy to punish him if he guesses wrong, and our own mixups have more safety and less commitment than his. Roy boasts high kill power with a lot of powerful moves, but he lacks kill setups and they all require sweetspots so if we play patient he can really struggle to land a decisive blow.

We can juggle and combo Roy easily because of his fall speed, and gimp him easily with spring. Compared to us he ultimately gets significantly less reward with much greater risk. Despite this he is still capable of comebacks if he can land his sweetspotted attacks, particularly his fsmash which can kill as low as 70%.

General stuff on Roy:
- Upb has super armour on start up when used on the ground (sounds familiar), its a solid oos option so be sure to respect shield at kill%
- NeutralB has suprisingly little cooldown, don't get baited by it
- His counter is 5.99 levels of power, but its knockback angle is forgiving, hes unlikely to use it against Sonic who has few powerful moves worth countering
- DI away and jumping avoids many of his grab combos
- His uthrow can KO at around 160%,be ultra patient and watch out for the grab around this % as Roy may get frustrated, allowing more opportunities to punish him

:4sonic:60-40:4feroy:

now that was some PRETTY good information on both chars with my Big Focus being Dong
also Any stages u recommend would be BEST to face him?
i believe ive done Great on Dongs so far on T&C, Lylat & Dreamland. but NEVER Battlefield & only took one dong player to FD but wasnt a dong player at high level tho so FD is iffy to me.
 

PeliPenguin

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now that was some PRETTY good information on both chars with my Big Focus being Dong
also Any stages u recommend would be BEST to face him?
i believe ive done Great on Dongs so far on T&C, Lylat & Dreamland. but NEVER Battlefield & only took one dong player to FD but wasnt a dong player at high level tho so FD is iffy to me.
Duck Hunt and FD are good stages for Sonic in general as they give more room for Sonic to exploit his movement. Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat depend on how confident you are with platforms, if not then DK has the advantage but if you do it may be even, largely depends on the player. I'd avoid Town and City because ding dong will kill earlier because of the low ceiling. Smashville is neutral as always.
 

RudyTutti

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:4dk:
The first member of the DK crew is one of the more difficult heavies to deal with, as his spacing options and ability to KO put him above the others of his archtype.

His moveset doesn't really restrict how we play at all, so our usual game of bait and punish or however you play sonic will work as well as it usually does. Bair,dtilt, jab and ftilt are the moves to watch out for in neutral, as DK outranges us with longer limbs which can stop us in our tracks and give him stage control, and everyone knows how fun it is to be in disadvantage against someone as strong and mobile as DK. Although they can be difficult to deal with they're all easy to bait out and punish, so we can control the pace of the match. His weight means he can KO us earlier than we KO him, especially when he has rage and using his infamous ding dong setup, which can KO as low as 50% off a grab, depending on stage selection. We're in serious trouble if he gets an early stock this way, since his survivablity makes it hard to make a comeback. The only way for him to make us approach him is through Giant Punch charging, but Giant Punch is less threatening than something like a Samus Charge Shot so rush down isn't essential, but can be useful.

The key to beating DK is similar to other heavies, which is exploit him as much as you can when hes in disadvantage. DK is one of the easiest characters to combo, he really can't land and his recovery is linear and leaves him open to good edgeguarding. We can also camp him pretty hard, since his own approach isn't spectacular and he lacks a projectile. However, don't underestimate his ability to comeback, be on your toes and stay patient, DK can struggle to deal with a Sonic who stays safe and attacks when he can, overcommiting will get you showered with coconut cream pies.

General stuff on DK
- His Upb on the ground has armour on start up, keep this in mind as he can use it if he reads an aggressive approach
- Giant Punch can be B-reversed in the air as a movement option, be aware of patterns
- When offstage with him, keep in mind he has many spikes including fair,dair,sideb and downb, all of them are fairly telegraphed
- Side B and Down B can deal heavy shield damage, downb is very dangerous if he corners us especially
- His approach in the air when he is facing you is really bad, more often than not they'll have their back to you so they can bair you, pay attention and you can tell what he's up to
- His Utilt can cover platforms very well, be careful he catches you on there

:4sonic:55-45:4dk:

:4feroy:
Roy is a speedy swordsman who doesn't focus on spacing, but rather a powerful close up game. On paper that sounds like he's quite powerful but fortunately he is pretty simple to deal with.

Roy lacks a projectile and has no way to make us approach him. However if he gets the lead then he can use nair, dtilt and jab in an attempt to keep us out. They do a good job of blocking spin dash, but Roy's sourspots means if we run in shield he is very easy to shield grab out of his attacks so he ends up playing a very heavy mixup game due to the lack of safety in his neutral. As such, its very easy to punish him if he guesses wrong, and our own mixups have more safety and less commitment than his. Roy boasts high kill power with a lot of powerful moves, but he lacks kill setups and they all require sweetspots so if we play patient he can really struggle to land a decisive blow.

We can juggle and combo Roy easily because of his fall speed, and gimp him easily with spring. Compared to us he ultimately gets significantly less reward with much greater risk. Despite this he is still capable of comebacks if he can land his sweetspotted attacks, particularly his fsmash which can kill as low as 70%.

General stuff on Roy:
- Upb has super armour on start up when used on the ground (sounds familiar), its a solid oos option so be sure to respect shield at kill%
- NeutralB has suprisingly little cooldown, don't get baited by it
- His counter is 5.99 levels of power, but its knockback angle is forgiving, hes unlikely to use it against Sonic who has few powerful moves worth countering
- DI away and jumping avoids many of his grab combos
- His uthrow can KO at around 160%,be ultra patient and watch out for the grab around this % as Roy may get frustrated, allowing more opportunities to punish him

:4sonic:60-40:4feroy:
Yeah this info is pretty awesome! You covered a lot of what I missed on DK! Even though his recovery is predictable and linear, I still have trouble edge guarding him because of his Up B beating out my spring and gimping me if I go offstage. What would you say are the best ways of edge guarding him?
 

PeliPenguin

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Yeah this info is pretty awesome! You covered a lot of what I missed on DK! Even though his recovery is predictable and linear, I still have trouble edge guarding him because of his Up B beating out my spring and gimping me if I go offstage. What would you say are the best ways of edge guarding him?
You want to space a bair or fair, aiming above his arms, you can dair spike him if you're feeling ballsy as well. Spring might work if you time it but he'll probably still be able to recover even if it does hit.

Also keep in mind he might not always go for the ledge and try to hit you with the upb on stage, it does a lot of damage so remember to shield the whole thing and punish his landing lag.

If you still struggle to beat him offstage then just stick to juggling, his inability to land is worse than his recovery.
 
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jxuten

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Hello everyone!

This is my first post here! Nice to meet you all!

I have a big tournament next week and I have a couple of problems with 2 specific match ups:

- Mario and Mr. Game and Watch.

They are the best local players and I just can’t win, especially because I don’t know how to approach them in a safe way.

I’ll just throw a small summary of my problems, first Mr. G&W:

- Down throw into hammer (low percent): I have discovered I can spring my way out of it, but it brings another problem…

- Down throw into up b: I don’t know if I should DI, airdodge, fast fall… I haven’t figure this one out, since I don’t know what to do I panic and get punished.

- Attack priority when trading (I’m a very offensive player), sometimes attacks clash, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose spectacularly (especially G&W up smash)

Whit Mario the basic Mario B&B:

- Down throw into up tilts: Here the spring also works, but then landing is a problem, because of…

- Mario’s up air strings: Is there a way to get out of this? Or maybe any attack that will get me out of this combo? And finally the most annoying one

- Mario’s frame perfect down air into: Grab, smash, up tilts. The problem here is that Mario’s dair has some sort of invincibility and it pretty much cancels the “optimal punish” (sonic up smash) and then, just like Kirby’s dair, Mario can punish and it can be lethal.

Finally both of this characters Up Smashes, they become absolutely scary at high percentages, with the armor and the moving hitbox and etc.

If I could get tips to practice, some specific mind game I can use or some good examples (some videos on this match ups would be awesome), I’ll appreciate it a lot.

In theory I am the best Sonic in my area, help me become the best player as well!

(BTW Mario is the undefeated champion, Mr. G&W it’s always second, and I’m usually always from 3rd to 5th place on tournaments)

Cheers!
 

Loki0830

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I can't say I'm very experienced in the G&W matchup, so I can't help you much there. And Mario is also a bit of a wildcard: because he's so balanced he can be very versatile and adaptive. This means there isn't a "correct" way to play the matchup. You have to adapt your approaches and mixups depending on what he does.

I can give you some general tips though. You mentioned that you tend to be a very aggressive player, especially when trading after you lose the neutral. Right off the bat, I can tell you, don't be. I know, it seems like mashing A to hit your nair as fast as possible would be a good option, but in my experience most other aerials beat out Sonic's. He has a very poor air game. When you lose the neutral, unless you see a golden opportunity you need to focus on recovering, landing, and resetting the neutral, because that's where Sonic's strengths lie. You need to be patient and wait for your opportunities, both in offense and defense.

With Mario, you just have to accept that at low percents there is sometimes nothing you can do to get out of his combos. Up B is almost always your best option, as it can get you out of some percent and can even damage him in the process. Unless he jumps up after you, don't dair back down to the stage though. You should only really do that as a mixup or if it's completely safe to do so. Try to juke him on the way down, land on a platform, or grab the ledge. More likely than not trying to nair him on your landing will get you punished; focus on landing and recovering. As soon as you land you can just dash away to safety, but if you throw out an attack that gives you more frames of vulnerability.

One important thing you may want to consider is gimping Mario with a spring-ride kill if he misses his upair -> up B combos, like I do here: https://youtu.be/nCLDal2RFTk?t=1m46s

It's situational, but it can completely change the pace of a match to your favor and is a handy tech you should always be keeping in mind. Mario's up-B will place him in the perfect spot to execute it in many scenarios, so he's as good a victim as you'll get.

Other than that, it's just general fundamentals and good decision making. Don't commit to the same approaches too often, and pay attention to how your opponents react. Don't be overly aggressive, especially when landing. And more than anything, be patient. By that, I don't mean camp the match in spin dash waiting for him to lower his shield, but instead to not commit to approaches when you know it's unsafe. Sonic's game is all about baiting and punishing. You need to use your speed and unconventional movement to open your opponent up before you strike. If you just rush in with a spindash, you won't do anything substantial.

Good luck!
 

jxuten

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You are absolutely right Loki. I always get punish by these guys for being way to offensive, especially on the air. The only match I won by far (a 2 stock) I played really defensively.

Guess I gotta practice patience more than any tech haha.

And thanks for the video man, seems really useful in missed Up B situations.

The biggest problem I have is getting in, Mario can do those Nairs and Uairs strings with no landing lag and it becomes really hard to get in. Perhaps bait and punish is more accurate for Sonic’s move set.

Thanks a bunch man!
 

Sytal

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Just a heads up jxuten jxuten , this thread tries to stay on topic for how we do our matchups. If you want to see a certain matchup, you can either see if we've done the MU already on the first page of this thread, or you can vote for it on the vote thread.

We are currently discussing DK and Roy.
You're new here, so its understandable, but please be aware that we go through our Matchups here pretty methodically.
 

Camalange

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I moved it here because it was originally it's own thread.

Figured it's at least more conducive here... Generally not sure if I should just close threads like that or move them.

:093:
 

Sytal

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I moved it here because it was originally it's own thread.

Figured it's at least more conducive here... Generally not sure if I should just close threads like that or move them.

:093:

Nah, that's fair. Now I feel silly for telling them off.

So, sorry guys.
 
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Camalange

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No worries. No way to have known unless I had said it.

:093:
 

jxuten

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It's okay that you moved me here mate, and yes, I'm very very new here.
I did saw the Mario thread at the front page, but I wanted more info :)
Quoting mister Iwata, please understand.
 

Sensane

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jxuten jxuten we have the Mario analysis up on the first page; head over there, take notes and study them. G&W I don't think is finished yet. Also, welcome to Smashboards and good luck at tour tourney.
 

ToonKake

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Duck Hunt and FD are good stages for Sonic in general as they give more room for Sonic to exploit his movement. Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat depend on how confident you are with platforms, if not then DK has the advantage but if you do it may be even, largely depends on the player. I'd avoid Town and City because ding dong will kill earlier because of the low ceiling. Smashville is neutral as always.


thx a lot dude im actually a platform cnfident type of Sonic player so this advice helps ill put this into my notes.
P.S im actually waitin on the G&W matchup as well & from what i kno frm it is that its more so being in the lead play a lot of mind games with the G&W player bait out his dash attacks as well as his dair wen u have him in the air my stages i recomend faceing him is Dreamland, Smasville & T&C but thats just me.
 
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Stylin'

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This resource is amazing, thank you for putting in so much time for us Sonic mains. You have my appreciations
 

Rucent

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Let's discuss :4sonic: vs :4bayonetta:, :4sonic: vs :4corrinf: & :4sonic: vs:4cloud2:!

Click here to vote for the next match ups to discuss!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
 
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NotLiquid

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Problem with :4cloud2: to me is a similar problem Sonic has with :rosalina:. Cloud effectively outranges everything Sonic has on him, and his UAir is just as, if not more, deadly against Sonic's landings. Sonic is forced to play this one a bit patiently and grounded. I'd say the one saving grace Sonic has against Cloud is that he doesn't get gimped as hard as other characters would against him, and that Cloud can't risk challenging Sonic if he's been knocked off the stage. But the matchup definitely seems to me that it's in Cloud's favor when Cloud holds the Neutral/Advantage.

Sonic against :4bayonetta: feels more even* since Bayonetta's frame data and range is less favorable. Being able to challenge recoveries is not an advantage I think Sonic has here but it's offset by Bayonetta's lighter weight. Again, I think this is a character that has aerial advantage over Sonic but his neutral state is on much more even footing and I don't think Bayonetta can risk Witch Timing many of Sonic's moves due to their multi hit nature. Bayonetta also has a hard time answering back against Sonic's grabs, which Sonic can get a lot from. Low ceiling stages are some I'd actively avoid against her more than any other character since she has the easiest time punishing anything that Sonic might screw up doing.

*Even as in don't get swallowed by Witch Twist.

Have no experience with :4corrinf:.
 
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PeliPenguin

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Oh boy here comes the essay

I've added headings in case its difficult to read but bear in mind I added the headings after the main write up, so I apologise if it looks disorganised.

:4cloud::4cloud2:
Cloud's objective throughout the match is to space with his gigantic Buster Sword and charge his limit to end his opponents life. Against Sonic his gameplan is very straightforward, but he'll be less obliged to camp limit considering we can easily chase him down, but it forces us to approach him regardless.

Cloud in the air
Cloud has notable advantages against Sonic. His aerials when spaced properly are safe on block and beat out most of our attacks because they are disjointed. In the air its without a doubt in Cloud's favour, his Dair makes him difficult to juggle, since it completely beats our Uair and autocancels, whilst his Uair completely murders us when we're above him, as we have no easy way to get around it apart from carefully chosen airdodges. His Nair is also quick and is good for regaining space and edgeguarding because of the semi spike angle it launches at. Cloud makes landing and air to airs very difficult considering our short ranged aerials and bad landing options, so we want to play a heavily grounded game, only going into the air for guaranteed combos, chasing after him with spring is simply too risky to consider, seeing he can airdodge>uair to potentially end us early, or at best put us in a juggling situation, which we must avoid.

Dealing with Cloud's limit
If Cloud doesn't have limit, its important to pressure him so he doesn't charge it, similar to how you don't want Samus to have a charge shot ready, with Limit ready his mobility improves and he has access to very powerful versions of his special moves, which you seriously don't want to deal with. Inevitably, he will fill his gauge be it through his Downb or him getting knocked around. When this happens you must play very patiently and non-commital, or you give him more opportunities to use his limit specials to end your stock early.

Specifically beating Cloud's limit specials
Don't spin towards him in neutral when he has limit or he can limit neutralb on reaction
, his regular neutralb is fairly laggy and easy to powershield, but his limit neutralb has transcendent priority, which means it'll go through all our attacks and hit us. His limit sideb lingers for a while, has invincibility on startup and much less cooldown then the regular version, respect it. Finishing Touch and limit upb are rarely used outside of hard reads, since FT is very laggy and limit upb is inferior to his other limit specials in terms of raw power. Using your shield a lot is a good idea, as he has a bad grab and his limit specials all lose to it. Focus on getting him offstage to force him to use his limit upb to recover, this should be fairly straight forward since he doesn't have many options offstage apart from 'make a beeline towards the ledge and wall jump if I can'.

Beating Cloud in neutral
These advantages make it seem rather difficult for the blue blur, but we actually have some good advantages ourselves. Cloud's aerials have a bit of ending lag and landing lag which for any other character wouldn't mean anything since they can't reach him from outside his sword range to punish him in time... but we can. We're simply too fast for Cloud to space us out easily, as long as you weave in and out of the range he wants to attack you can punish him fairly easily, his aerials are only safe if he spaces properly, so if you run and shield grab with good timing you can consistently punish him. Lets say he realises you're just going to just run and shield him all day, he then grabs you, but he has no kill throw, no combo throw and his uthrow is too laggy to put you in a serious juggling situation, he can't really edgeguard us either, since he can't go deep enough to hit us before we spring, his only option is to attempt a stage spike, which is unreliable seeing we tech those.

Offstage
Edgeguarding him goes without question, seeing he has one of the weakest recoveries in the game without limit active. He can make it back from most places offstage if he has his jump, but the thing is he travels in a very predictable manner to get to the stage because he simply has few options when recovering, he's not like Rosa who can float around and then use her upb to get back, its best to imagine he always has to make a 'beeline' of sorts back to the stage. Dsmash is very effective at gimping him because of its semi-spiking angle. If he recovers high, he can use the second part of his upb to safely descend to the ledge, so go out and hit him before he gets close enough to use it. Capitalising on his recovery is essential if you want to win, as it'll make up for all the painful juggling Cloud can inflict.

Ground Game
I'll continue to emphasis that you should stay grounded. Cloud is similar to ZSS in the sense his ground game isn't as good as his air game. His only tilt with KO power is ftilt, and his utilt and dtilt can put you in a bad spot. However, we can easily punish his tilts by shielding them and retaliating.

Stages
Avoid Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat, the confined platform layout allows Cloud to easily juggle Sonic. Go to FD ideally, I believe Town and City, Smashville and Duck Hunt are neutral picks. Duck Hunt because the extra room doesn't mean much when you constantly have to approach.

TL;DR
Overall, Cloud can seriously put the hurt on Sonic if he can keep in the air and land his limit specials, but if Sonic knows how to deal with him and exploits his recovery and inability to deal with shields it boils down to a test of fundamentals and reads.

General stuff on Cloud:
- Don't run into fsmash. I know it sounds obvious but just don't do it, its surprisingly easy to do. Make sure to shield the whole thing since it is multihit. It has deceptively little cooldown for how powerful it is, so just settle for a grab punish.
- All his smashes have little cooldown for their strength, settle for a weaker punish instead of messing up a bigger one.
- Be careful around his Dair, an autocanceled one can true combo into an Uair or Finishing Touch at kill%. Hit him from the side if he abuses it.
- His dthrow doesn't true combo into anything, but be sure to DI away and jump or he'll get a sideb or ftilt for a lot of damage.
- His neutralb can be annoying, but its easy to powershield and punish him for it.
- Since his gravity increases when he has limit, he becomes easier to combo.
- He can use limit neutral b and limit sideb on the ledge to stage spike us as we recover, either delay your recovery or be ready to tech

I also highly recommend you check out M2K's explanation on Cloud's weaknesses.

:4sonic:50-50:4cloud:

:4corrinf:
The Corrin MU is similar to many other swordfighters, her aim is to space Sonic out, but she has a few more tricks up her draconic sleeve that make it a bit more complicated.

Corrin's unique specials
Unlike many other sword fighters who mainly use aerials, Corrin is more likely to use her neutralb from a distance. This move can be annoying to punish, the actual projectile is fairly easy to powershield, but unlike other projectiles we can't recklessly charge at her after blocking it or we'll get chomped, which is charged separately from the projectile. Attempting to shield the bite is also risky, as if you hold shield whilst Corrin charges it up it can easily break your shield. Because of this you'll have to settle for a weak punish after the chomp, or you can jump over her and hit her with an aerial. Corrin can also use her aerials to space Sonic out, but like with Cloud our superior speed means we can weave in and out of the range Corrin attacks and punish. Her sideb is an interesting move, the kicks are very difficult to intercept and have surprisingly little cooldown, leaving barely enough time to punish even with Sonic. If she attempts to pin you, holding shield and waiting for her to use a kick is the safest way to deal with it, you can hit her whilst she is stuck in the ground but you risk getting kicked, which can kill at high%. When used against an aerial opponent the tip is a potent kill move, on Battlefield she can even pierce through the stage to hit Sonic as he is recovering, so be alert.

Corrin's ability to juggle
Corrin can easily put Sonic in a bad spot, almost all her attacks launch Sonic upward, setting up for a juggle. Even moves you don't expect to launch you up like fair and ftilt will put you in a pickle. Her Uair is a scary move because of its huge range and power. Pick your airdodges carefully, as we get completely outranged in the air leaving airdodge as our only option. Although she juggles us hard, she can't really edgeguard that well against Sonic. Her grab game is OK, she has two kill throws, both of them being vertical and her fthrow and bthrow are mediocre, with none of her throws having true combos. Despite this her uthrow still puts us in a bad position. Shielding is only slightly safer in this MU compared to others.

Sonic's advantages
Although Corrin's unique tools are effective at harassing Sonic, her status has a swordfighter makes her attacks punishable, which Sonic thrives off of. She likes to space with nair and fair, but both of these can be easily punished by Sonic, in fact most of Corrin's kit can be punished by Sonic some way or another, so Sonic's usual bait and punish playstyle works very effectively against her. Corrin's recovery is similar to Mario's, it isn't particularly long distanced but the Upb has big hitboxes which make it difficult to intercept, so go deep if you decide to attempt an edgeguard.

Getting the lead is very important as always, Corrin can do a good job at keeping Sonic out and juggling him, but her low mobility makes it difficult for her to catch Sonic when he has the lead, making approaching Sonic very difficult for her. Additionally, her lack of a fast aerial makes her easy to combo and the lag of her aerials means we can juggle her as well. Her lack of a reliable approach and her general slowness pushes the MU in our favour.

Stages
Avoid Battlefield,Dreamland and Lylat as the platforms benefit Corrin more then Sonic, go to FD and Duck Hunt as they give more room for Sonic to exploit his movement.

General stuff on Corrin:
- Her most powerful moves require tippers to land e.g Fsmash,Sideb, Dsmash and Usmash. Being aware of Corrin's spacing helps to avoid being in tipper range.
- FS>Dair works on her
- Her counter, while nerfed is sill potent near the top of the screen, be cautious of it and bait it out.
- Her multi hit jab is easy to escape.

:4sonic:55-45:4corrinf:

:4bayonetta::4bayonetta2:
I have little experience in this MU, but I'll add what I do know.

Bayonetta's goal is to find an opening to exploit her 0-death combos.

Bayonetta's tools
Bayo has mediocre frame data and average mobility, but she has the best burst options in the game in her divekick and upb, both of which can lead to death regardless of your %. Thankfully, we have the speed to be able to punish the overusage of these moves, but Bayo's ability to 0-death off of these very simple moves means we have to play extremely cautiously and abuse shield. She can force our approach through the use of her extended Nair, which fires passive bullets like Fox's lasers below her. Nair is easy to punish as long as you run under her and hit her from underneath. Her neutralb is fairly easy to deal with, most of the time we can spin dash under it and hit her for free, but be cautious when recovering against it because of the range. Her grounded sideb is easy to shield grab, but if she crosses you up be aware that the second kick hits behind her, which can lead into an upb.

Bayonetta in disadvantage
Bayonetta's stature and gravity mean we can combo her easily, but continuing to attack her outside of true combos is very risky because of Witch Time. Bayo's disadvantage is fairly easy to exploit as long as you consider Witch Time. She can mix up her landing with her sideb and upb, but they increase the amount of landing lag she receives, the only other option to consider is her dive kick, which travels in a predictable pattern. When edgeguarding, try to intercept her sideb with a fair or bair, but never challenge her upb.

Avoiding her combos
If you do get witch timed, if you're lucky you can spring which should save you because of the invincibility frames, but you never want Witch Time to come through, because if the Bayo player is good enough you'll die every time. The idea that our multi hit spin charge 'beats' witch time is wrong, since she can just jab us out of it and then combo us. If you're being comboed, DIing down and away from her lets you escape some stuff, but again if the Bayo player is good enough they can follow your DI and continue to attack you. Her grab game is mediocre, her fthrow can kill at very high% and her uthrow can lead into follow ups, but most can be escaped by jumping away, and Bayo's juggling game isn't that threatening.

Beating her normals
Bayo's grounded moveset is very easy to punish, but her long limbs means she actually has pretty good range, so treat her like most characters and just stay out the way, then run in for an opening. Her aerials can be punished by getting close and shield grabbing. Shield grabbing is pretty good against her in general, as you can block her dangerous combo starters and it bypasses Witch Time, but she can space attacks on your shield, so make sure to run in and shield grab instead of just standing still.

I'd like to further emphasise how you have to be extremely patient and defensive based, if you don't do this you will lose. Unless you're a god at offence, there is no point in risking attacking frequently when she can can upb,divekick or Witch Time you at any moment.

General Stuff on Bayo:
- Her smashes are extremely laggy and get beat out by any attack.
- She can use extended nair and extended uair to edgeguard, mix up your recovery as always.
- Attacking her shield is very risky because her upb hits both sides and comes out frame 4, basically being Bowser's upb on steroids.
- When covering ledge options, consider Witch Time, if you commit to an attack she can jump up and Witch Time you.
- Baiting out Witch Time is essential as it stales with every usage, if you bait it out successfully throughout the stock you essentially remove it from play.

I'm not really sure when it comes to stages, I'd assume FD and Duck Hunt are best as always.

:4sonic:50-50:4bayonetta::4bayonetta2:
 
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yope3041

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
10
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soundofsilver1
I found out tonight that you can air dodge out of corrin's counter in its current state if you hit it with sd or sc and jump.
 

Amadeus9

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
779
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Maine
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Amadeuswololo
I saw ito cp phoenix with fox and completely body bag him over multiple sets. How bad is this mu for sonic? It looked worse than -1, also any justification?
 

ToonKake

So Animated
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Aug 24, 2014
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Scarborough Ontario
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ToOn_Cake
Oh boy here comes the essay

I've added headings in case its difficult to read but bear in mind I added the headings after the main write up, so I apologise if it looks disorganised.

:4cloud::4cloud2:
Cloud's objective throughout the match is to space with his gigantic Buster Sword and charge his limit to end his opponents life. Against Sonic his gameplan is very straightforward, but he'll be less obliged to camp limit considering we can easily chase him down, but it forces us to approach him regardless.

Cloud in the air
Cloud has notable advantages against Sonic. His aerials when spaced properly are safe on block and beat out most of our attacks because they are disjointed. In the air its without a doubt in Cloud's favour, his Dair makes him difficult to juggle, since it completely beats our Uair and autocancels, whilst his Uair completely murders us when we're above him, as we have no easy way to get around it apart from carefully chosen airdodges. His Nair is also quick and is good for regaining space and edgeguarding because of the semi spike angle it launches at. Cloud makes landing and air to airs very difficult considering our short ranged aerials and bad landing options, so we want to play a heavily grounded game, only going into the air for guaranteed combos, chasing after him with spring is simply too risky to consider, seeing he can airdodge>uair to potentially end us early, or at best put us in a juggling situation, which we must avoid.

Dealing with Cloud's limit
If Cloud doesn't have limit, its important to pressure him so he doesn't charge it, similar to how you don't want Samus to have a charge shot ready, with Limit ready his mobility improves and he has access to very powerful versions of his special moves, which you seriously don't want to deal with. Inevitably, he will fill his gauge be it through his Downb or him getting knocked around. When this happens you must play very patiently and non-commital, or you give him more opportunities to use his limit specials to end your stock early.

Specifically beating Cloud's limit specials
Don't spin towards him in neutral when he has limit or he can limit neutralb on reaction
, his regular neutralb is fairly laggy and easy to powershield, but his limit neutralb has transcendent priority, which means it'll go through all our attacks and hit us. His limit sideb lingers for a while, has invincibility on startup and much less cooldown then the regular version, respect it. Finishing Touch and limit upb are rarely used outside of hard reads, since FT is very laggy and limit upb is inferior to his other limit specials in terms of raw power. Using your shield a lot is a good idea, as he has a bad grab and his limit specials all lose to it. Focus on getting him offstage to force him to use his limit upb to recover, this should be fairly straight forward since he doesn't have many options offstage apart from 'make a beeline towards the ledge and wall jump if I can'.

Beating Cloud in neutral
These advantages make it seem rather difficult for the blue blur, but we actually have some good advantages ourselves. Cloud's aerials have a bit of ending lag and landing lag which for any other character wouldn't mean anything since they can't reach him from outside his sword range to punish him in time... but we can. We're simply too fast for Cloud to space us out easily, as long as you weave in and out of the range he wants to attack you can punish him fairly easily, his aerials are only safe if he spaces properly, so if you run and shield grab with good timing you can consistently punish him. Lets say he realises you're just going to just run and shield him all day, he then grabs you, but he has no kill throw, no combo throw and his uthrow is too laggy to put you in a serious juggling situation, he can't really edgeguard us either, since he can't go deep enough to hit us before we spring, his only option is to attempt a stage spike, which is unreliable seeing we tech those.

Offstage
Edgeguarding him goes without question, seeing he has one of the weakest recoveries in the game without limit active. He can make it back from most places offstage if he has his jump, but the thing is he travels in a very predictable manner to get to the stage because he simply has few options when recovering, he's not like Rosa who can float around and then use her upb to get back, its best to imagine he always has to make a 'beeline' of sorts back to the stage. Dsmash is very effective at gimping him because of its semi-spiking angle. If he recovers high, he can use the second part of his upb to safely descend to the ledge, so go out and hit him before he gets close enough to use it. Capitalising on his recovery is essential if you want to win, as it'll make up for all the painful juggling Cloud can inflict.

Ground Game
I'll continue to emphasis that you should stay grounded. Cloud is similar to ZSS in the sense his ground game isn't as good as his air game. His only tilt with KO power is ftilt, and his utilt and dtilt can put you in a bad spot. However, we can easily punish his tilts by shielding them and retaliating.

Stages
Avoid Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat, the confined platform layout allows Cloud to easily juggle Sonic. Go to FD ideally, I believe Town and City, Smashville and Duck Hunt are neutral picks. Duck Hunt because the extra room doesn't mean much when you constantly have to approach.

TL;DR
Overall, Cloud can seriously put the hurt on Sonic if he can keep in the air and land his limit specials, but if Sonic knows how to deal with him and exploits his recovery and inability to deal with shields it boils down to a test of fundamentals and reads.

General stuff on Cloud:
- Don't run into fsmash. I know it sounds obvious but just don't do it, its surprisingly easy to do. Make sure to shield the whole thing since it is multihit. It has deceptively little cooldown for how powerful it is, so just settle for a grab punish.
- All his smashes have little cooldown for their strength, settle for a weaker punish instead of messing up a bigger one.
- Be careful around his Dair, an autocanceled one can true combo into an Uair or Finishing Touch at kill%. Hit him from the side if he abuses it.
- His dthrow doesn't true combo into anything, but be sure to DI away and jump or he'll get a sideb or ftilt for a lot of damage.
- His neutralb can be annoying, but its easy to powershield and punish him for it.
- Since his gravity increases when he has limit, he becomes easier to combo.
- He can use limit neutral b and limit sideb on the ledge to stage spike us as we recover, either delay your recovery or be ready to tech

I also highly recommend you check out M2K's explanation on Cloud's weaknesses.

:4sonic:50-50:4cloud:

:4corrinf:
The Corrin MU is similar to many other swordfighters, her aim is to space Sonic out, but she has a few more tricks up her draconic sleeve that make it a bit more complicated.

Corrin's unique specials
Unlike many other sword fighters who mainly use aerials, Corrin is more likely to use her neutralb from a distance. This move can be annoying to punish, the actual projectile is fairly easy to powershield, but unlike other projectiles we can't recklessly charge at her after blocking it or we'll get chomped, which is charged separately from the projectile. Attempting to shield the bite is also risky, as if you hold shield whilst Corrin charges it up it can easily break your shield. Because of this you'll have to settle for a weak punish after the chomp, or you can jump over her and hit her with an aerial. Corrin can also use her aerials to space Sonic out, but like with Cloud our superior speed means we can weave in and out of the range Corrin attacks and punish. Her sideb is an interesting move, the kicks are very difficult to intercept and have surprisingly little cooldown, leaving barely enough time to punish even with Sonic. If she attempts to pin you, holding shield and waiting for her to use a kick is the safest way to deal with it, you can hit her whilst she is stuck in the ground but you risk getting kicked, which can kill at high%. When used against an aerial opponent the tip is a potent kill move, on Battlefield she can even pierce through the stage to hit Sonic as he is recovering, so be alert.

Corrin's ability to juggle
Corrin can easily put Sonic in a bad spot, almost all her attacks launch Sonic upward, setting up for a juggle. Even moves you don't expect to launch you up like fair and ftilt will put you in a pickle. Her Uair is a scary move because of its huge range and power. Pick your airdodges carefully, as we get completely outranged in the air leaving airdodge as our only option. Although she juggles us hard, she can't really edgeguard that well against Sonic. Her grab game is OK, she has two kill throws, both of them being vertical and her fthrow and bthrow are mediocre, with none of her throws having true combos. Despite this her uthrow still puts us in a bad position. Shielding is only slightly safer in this MU compared to others.

Sonic's advantages
Although Corrin's unique tools are effective at harassing Sonic, her status has a swordfighter makes her attacks punishable, which Sonic thrives off of. She likes to space with nair and fair, but both of these can be easily punished by Sonic, in fact most of Corrin's kit can be punished by Sonic some way or another, so Sonic's usual bait and punish playstyle works very effectively against her. Corrin's recovery is similar to Mario's, it isn't particularly long distanced but the Upb has big hitboxes which make it difficult to intercept, so go deep if you decide to attempt an edgeguard.

Getting the lead is very important as always, Corrin can do a good job at keeping Sonic out and juggling him, but her low mobility makes it difficult for her to catch Sonic when he has the lead, making approaching Sonic very difficult for her. Additionally, her lack of a fast aerial makes her easy to combo and the lag of her aerials means we can juggle her as well. Her lack of a reliable approach and her general slowness pushes the MU in our favour.

Stages
Avoid Battlefield,Dreamland and Lylat as the platforms benefit Corrin more then Sonic, go to FD and Duck Hunt as they give more room for Sonic to exploit his movement.

General stuff on Corrin:
- Her most powerful moves require tippers to land e.g Fsmash,Sideb, Dsmash and Usmash. Being aware of Corrin's spacing helps to avoid being in tipper range.
- FS>Dair works on her
- Her counter, while nerfed is sill potent near the top of the screen, be cautious of it and bait it out.
- Her multi hit jab is easy to escape.

:4sonic:55-45:4corrinf:

:4bayonetta::4bayonetta2:
I have little experience in this MU, but I'll add what I do know.

Bayonetta's goal is to find an opening to exploit her 0-death combos.

Bayonetta's tools
Bayo has mediocre frame data and average mobility, but she has the best burst options in the game in her divekick and upb, both of which can lead to death regardless of your %. Thankfully, we have the speed to be able to punish the overusage of these moves, but Bayo's ability to 0-death off of these very simple moves means we have to play extremely cautiously and abuse shield. She can force our approach through the use of her extended Nair, which fires passive bullets like Fox's lasers below her. Nair is easy to punish as long as you run under her and hit her from underneath. Her neutralb is fairly easy to deal with, most of the time we can spin dash under it and hit her for free, but be cautious when recovering against it because of the range. Her grounded sideb is easy to shield grab, but if she crosses you up be aware that the second kick hits behind her, which can lead into an upb.

Bayonetta in disadvantage
Bayonetta's stature and gravity mean we can combo her easily, but continuing to attack her outside of true combos is very risky because of Witch Time. Bayo's disadvantage is fairly easy to exploit as long as you consider Witch Time. She can mix up her landing with her sideb and upb, but they increase the amount of landing lag she receives, the only other option to consider is her dive kick, which travels in a predictable pattern. When edgeguarding, try to intercept her sideb with a fair or bair, but never challenge her upb.

Avoiding her combos
If you do get witch timed, if you're lucky you can spring which should save you because of the invincibility frames, but you never want Witch Time to come through, because if the Bayo player is good enough you'll die every time. The idea that our multi hit spin charge 'beats' witch time is wrong, since she can just jab us out of it and then combo us. If you're being comboed, DIing down and away from her lets you escape some stuff, but again if the Bayo player is good enough they can follow your DI and continue to attack you. Her grab game is mediocre, her fthrow can kill at very high% and her uthrow can lead into follow ups, but most can be escaped by jumping away, and Bayo's juggling game isn't that threatening.

Beating her normals
Bayo's grounded moveset is very easy to punish, but her long limbs means she actually has pretty good range, so treat her like most characters and just stay out the way, then run in for an opening. Her aerials can be punished by getting close and shield grabbing. Shield grabbing is pretty good against her in general, as you can block her dangerous combo starters and it bypasses Witch Time, but she can space attacks on your shield, so make sure to run in and shield grab instead of just standing still.

I'd like to further emphasise how you have to be extremely patient and defensive based, if you don't do this you will lose. Unless you're a god at offence, there is no point in risking attacking frequently when she can can upb,divekick or Witch Time you at any moment.

General Stuff on Bayo:
- Her smashes are extremely laggy and get beat out by any attack.
- She can use extended nair and extended uair to edgeguard, mix up your recovery as always.
- Attacking her shield is very risky because her upb hits both sides and comes out frame 4, basically being Bowser's upb on steroids.
- When covering ledge options, consider Witch Time, if you commit to an attack she can jump up and Witch Time you.
- Baiting out Witch Time is essential as it stales with every usage, if you bait it out successfully throughout the stock you essentially remove it from play.

I'm not really sure when it comes to stages, I'd assume FD and Duck Hunt are best as always.

:4sonic:50-50:4bayonetta::4bayonetta2:
VERY GOOD NOTES ON BOTH CHARS Ive been having Probs on a few Corrin chars in which from i noticed i need avoid Any stag with platforms also i figures lylat workss in some way & can Jank Corrins Recovery due to ive done it a few times other den that this is All good :) & as for Beyos i just play a bait & Punish game with em without not over committing too much. ALSO with Beyonetta the best Stages in my opinion Are Stages with Platforms but not any Low Ceiling Stages due to her gettin the 0 to death kill but platforms mess up her combo game as well as Smashvilles Balloon so more things to note.
My Stages to Counter Beyonetta are : Battlefield, Smashville FD & Sometimes Lylat (Jank Boys lol.)
My Stages to Counter Corrin are: Lylat (Jank Boyz) FD, Duck Hunt & Smashvile.
 
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Sytal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
276
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Iowa
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Sytal
I'm liking the info here on the 3 big DLC characters. I've gone from being able to take on Clouds easily to hardly winning, so the info here is much appreciated. That said, I think my biggest issue with Cloud right now is getting myself grounded after being catapaulted.
Now I know we have poor landing options, but I'm curious as to what some people's opinions here are on the better ways of getting back to the ground in that particular MU. Cloud's air versatility is..just a bit too ridiculous for me. Any good suggestions while we're still on the subject?
 

PeliPenguin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
56
Location
Hertfordshire, England
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peligod2
There is no easy single way to land vs Cloud, he really tests your ability to mix up your landing and knowing your options.

It's very dependant on how well Cloud can read you, good use of platforms, use of your double jump, homing attack and carefully chosen air dodges will help you if you know when to mix it up. If Cloud is good at frame traps he can make it even harder to land, but if you stay tricky you can escape. He pushes your ability to land to its limits, which makes fighting him good practice if you're predictable when landing.
 

Sytal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
276
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Iowa
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Sytal
That sounds about right. I try to keep Cloud guessing as to where I intend to land, but its definitely not easy.
I know a Cloud main in my area, so I guess I'll see if he would be willing to do some tests on the matter.
Thanks for your thoughts!
 

jaimex2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
128
Location
Melbourne, Australia
NNID
jaimex2
Spinshot or Spin Dashing to the sides to get around Cloud Uairs. Sometimes its safer to just go out under the ledges and spring back up instead of trying to land against characterrs who can catch your landings with ease.

I never use Sping > Dair unless there is no chance of a intercept.
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
225
Location
Saratoga Springs, NY
Let's discuss :4sonic: vs :4mewtwo: and :4sonic: vs :4kirby:!

Click here to vote for the next match ups to discuss!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
 

PeliPenguin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
56
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Hertfordshire, England
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peligod2
:4mewtwo:
In this MU, M2 will be focusing on charging Shadow Ball to create pressure and using dtilt and nair to start combos.

The most troublesome thing about M2 is Shadow Ball. Not only can smaller ones be used to limit Sonic's movement from a distance, but a fully charged one is one of the strongest projectiles in the game which will force Sonic to play very safely. When the distance is closed M2 will attempt to space with dtilt. With our speed, we can get around it and punish but running away gives M2 more opportunities to use Shadow Ball. M2 can also cross up with nair, which can drag us into him for a potential follow up, but it can be traded with.

M2 has dangerous combos, although many aren't guaranteed, it isn't too difficult for him to read your defensive option and extend his hits. When it comes to securing stocks M2 has an advantage, he has many relatively safe ways to KO including his powerful throws, fair and usmash, the latter of which is very effective at beating HA and catching our landings in general. Overall M2 has a stronger offense compared to Sonic and with momentum can be very dangerous.

The thing is, once you've gotten around Shadow Ball Sonic can play his bait and punish style well, as M2's normals are fairly punishable and not that effective at keeping Sonic out with the exception of dtilt, which is only safe when spaced right. When it comes to recovery both characters are unlikely going to gimp each other, as both have long distanced recoveries with mix up potential. Although M2 can easily rack up damage and KO, we can do the same to him because of his size and weight. Therefore, maintaining a strong offense is crucial so M2 doesn't outdamage you.

Overall in this MU both characters can abuse the other, with Sonic being able to bait and punish M2 more easily than the other way around. However, M2 is very effective at limiting Sonic from a distance and can kill a bit easier, whilst Sonic has to use risky attacks to abuse M2's low weight.

General stuff on M2:
  • Confusion does not true combo into anything, jump away will always allow you to escape.
  • Dsmash has deceptive endlag, settle for a weaker punish.
  • There is a way to DI so you can avoid some of fthrow's shadow balls. I'm not entirely sure though.
  • His dthrow is bad, jumping away will save you from follow ups.
  • He is more likely to use disable when falling past the stage, as going off stage makes it hard to punish him.
  • He randomly falls out of uair, make sure you're properly inside him when using it before you call Sakurai
:4sonic:50-50:4mewtwo:

:4kirby:
In this MU Kirby relies on mix ups to be able to get a confirm into his combos.

Kirby's main combo starters are dair, utilt and fthrow. Kirby's combos are the most threatening thing about him, so if you can avoid the combo starters you make it very difficult for Kirby to get anything started. His mobility is pretty bad, so its difficult for him to approach Sonic, whilst Sonic can play the bait and punish game very effectively here. Unfortunately for Kirby, his light weight doesn't help him escape Sonic's spin combos, so his weight ends up being very detrimental to him.

Kirby's small size isn't as beneficial against Sonic compared to most characters, but it does mean he is really hard to hit with SH fair and SH uair. Kirby's jab is also effective at clanking with or straight up beating Spin Dash and Spin Charge. If Kirby stays grounded and abuses jab, he can force Sonic to approach in different ways. Kirby also has stronger kill moves than we do, but they all require a read with the exception of uthrow.

Ultimately, Kirby's slow speed and bad approach make it really difficult for him to abuse Sonic's disadvantage, and his only option to beat Sonic's approach is jab, which is a low reward move whereas his main combo starters are very easy for Sonic to avoid. Overall, Kirby simply lacks the tools and mobility to take advantage of Sonic's weaknesses whilst Sonic can easily abuse Kirby's.

General stuff for Kirby:
  • His inhale lets him copy HA (thank god, imagine if he could copy Spin Dash). We all know how unreliable HA is, so be sure to show Kirby why. Strangely, he seems to bounce higher when he hits something which makes him a bit harder to punish if you block it.
  • His downb can cause serious shield damage, but its easily punishable.
  • DI away and jumping should help to avoid him extending his combos.
  • Be careful with stages with platforms, Kirby's uthrow can kill earlier if he grabs you under them.
  • His upb doesn't snap the ledge very well from below, you can abuse this with an fsmash or dair.
  • His dtilt has a good chance of tripping, which can be used to set up grabs.

:4sonic:60-40:4kirby:
 
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Sensane

Smash Lord
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Oh, come on. Kirby sucks; its at worst a :4sonic: 75:25 :4kirby: in our favor.

Mewtwo, on the other hand. Oh dear.....as much as I struggle against a mew2 as Sonic, it's a dead even matchup thanks to the buffs. THIS is why Pit makes a great secondary for Sonic: Pit dominates mew2 (well, not really, but Pit does beat mew2 :p). Shadow Ball can really hurt our approach, and this is one of the only characters that the Duck Hunt stage should be avoided (much like Tink and Wario).

Also, there's something thats really been itching at me, but Rucent Rucent (or at least I should ask you since you made this thread) one small question: HOW THE **** IS THE PEACH MATCHUP EVEN AND NOT A PLUS ONE IN OUR FAVOR?!?!? Our F-air can almost completely invalidate her floating approaches and she hates camping, something that we are very good at doing. I guess maybe her pressure game is something to consider (in the slim chance she can actually get in due to our infinitely superior mobility), but if we can get in her face, she's near helpless without a turnip. And before you say "maybe the Peach players don't know the matchup", no, if they know the Pit matchup and give my Pit a hard time (which fyi is a matchup that I believe is in Pit's favor), then I think that they should know what to do against a standard Sonic player.
 

Rucent

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The reason why I listed Peach as an even match up agianst Sonic is because of her unique style of footsies, where she can alternate between grounded and aerial options on the dime. As you mentioned, pressure is something Peach excels at because of this.

Sonic can easily bring the advantage to his side if he has a lead, as Peach struggles when the opponent camps her and forces her to approach. However, the match doesn't start out like that, and Peach can force Sonic to come using Turnip. When Sonic is approaching, Peach has the tools/movement to effectively keep him out. SH Floating Nair, Fair, Dair, and Bair are great options for covering Spin Dash approaches. Turnips as well. Smart Peaches can shield Spin Dash and if Sonic jumps past them, use that time to reset neutral or get a Turnip rather than chase.

We can stick near/close to Peach, and bait out said options, but that's easier said than done. One good thing about this is that because of how close we are, we pressure Peach into not pulling up Turnips. We need to be creative of when to get in agianst Peach.

If you want to see what other notable players graded the match up, here it is:
  • Camalange said the match up was even (±0) in his March 14th match up spread. (Patch 1.1.4)
  • Seagull Joe said the match up was a slight disadvantage (-1) in his March 7th match up spread (Patch 1.1.4)
  • 6WX said that the match up was a slight advantage (+1), but can become a disadvantage (-2) if played wrong in his April 15th match up spread (Patch 1.1.5)
  • Umeki said that Sonic wins agianst Peach.
The last time Sonic was ever touched in a balance patch was Patch 1.1.1 (Shield Change patch) where he gives 10 damage with his get-up attack as opposed to 1 damage.
The last time Peach was touched in a balance patch was Patch 1.1.5, where her Uair hitbox was altered, causing the Peach infinite to no longer exists.

Seeing that the infinite no longer exists, that would make the match up feel even more better for Sonic, as he doesn't have to worry about it anymore. However, Peach shouldn't need to rely on this in the match up, hence why I am not going to go over this in more detail.

All-in-all, Sonic can easily beat Peach if he gets the lead and camps, but defensive Peaches will give the Blue Blur hell when it comes to converting Neutral into Advantage. And it only gets worse if Peach has the lead. That is why I listed the match up as even. It really depends on who gets the lead first.
 

Sytal

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Peligod covered the bulk of both MU's before I could jump on it.
At this point the only thing I can think to add is for Kirby MU.
It was mentioned that Kirby has early kill options, but I think its important to be aware of Kirby's down smash in particular.
The down smash can KO deceptively early and its hit box stays out for several frames.
Its important to be aware of it, especially if the Kirby is giving you a hard time in late game.
Anything else I could think of has been noted already, so that's all I have. I also don't have any good stuff on Mewtwo's MU at the moment.

The Sonic vs Kirby MU is definitely in Sonic's favor though. Avoiding Kirby's combo set ups is key to winning.
:4sonic: 60:40 :4kirby:
 

Rucent

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Is no one going gaga over the fact that -6WX- -6WX- has shown up here? IT'S MOTHERTRUCKING 6WX!!!
You haven't seen how excited I was when I got the notification yesterday. But back to discussion..

What I've noticed in 6WX's set vs Blue is that Mewtwo's falling Nair is very good to use vs an approaching Sonic. When Blue manages to confirm that Nair, he is able to convert off of that, however he missed a lot of opportunities later into the set.

Do also take into account that 6WX always tried to stay near Blue, possibly prompting Blue to not charge Shadow Ball much. The only instance where we see Blue start charging is when 6WX is far away. There was one instance where Blue did start charging on Smashville's platform and 6WX took advantage of their positioning to pull off a sweet Spin Shot into DJ Fair punish.

To me it feels as if Blue was very impatient in the set, as he tried throwing out Up Smashes out of no where and tried challenging 6WX in unfavorable situations rather than evading and resetting neutral. In the second match, Blue's use of Nair use dwindled, something he could've done at the end instead of Dair which missed and got him killed.
 
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