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Some notes about Dsmash

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
268
I see almost every Zss (including me) using Downsmash too much. We are building our game around this move.
But there is point I learned in Japan:
The Downsmash isn't THAT good on 2012 anymore.
I got wrecked in Japan using it too much.

It just starts on situations, when the two players are on a neutral position.
Just take Metaknight against Zss. Some people may say, Zss has to play defensive as ****, and it may be true. But never, never use the Downsmash too much. The Downsmash isn't safe, Metaknight can approach so easily avoiding Downsmash (Tornado from above, perfect timed Dash Attack, Running Powershieldgrab, etc.) and when she gets one time in a bad position, she can only hope, that Mk is doing a mistake.

Also don't use it too much, when Zss is in a good position (enemy is in the air, and you try to punish his landing).
I can guarantee you, a good player will get hit by Downsmash just rarely. Also when the Downsmash doesn't hit the enemy, your good position is gone. The chance to make damage is lost, because you tried to do a hard read. We should just play more flexible, using more dtilt, grab and dash attack to get landings, and reading the movements of the movements in the air. This is what Zss can do at her best, so don't waste this, because of using to much Dsmash.
The clue is, when using Dsmash more less, you will get the enemy more often. He won't await it, because of your variation and you get also a psychological advantage.
Less is more!

The last point, is guarding the edge. Let's just pick Metaknight again. He is planking like a idiot. So DON'T try to get them with Dsmash, you won't get him with Dsmash (or Side-B), if he knows the Matchup. Maybe you will lose this good situation, making pressure on him, if you just spam this two moves.
If you just wait, standing there (close enough on the edge, but not so close he can get you with uair, up-b, or something), you can punish EVERY movement of Mk, when he tries to get to the stage back again. Just try it.

Some of my new experience i made the last time.
I also play some friendlies without using Dsmash, and it worked surprisingly good. And if you learn to use this move better, you will love it even more.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
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Messages
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In the rain.
Yup. Something I noticed a long time ago with ZSS is that if you want to do well, then sometimes you have to be okay with getting low% punishes like dtilt or dash attack simply because they provide such a good positional advantage, and cause dsmash isn't going to work every time.
 

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
268
Good write up.

I've actually been thinking similar things.
What do you think exactly about that?

Yup. Something I noticed a long time ago with ZSS is that if you want to do well, then sometimes you have to be okay with getting low% punishes like dtilt or dash attack simply because they provide such a good positional advantage, and cause dsmash isn't going to work every time.
Getting the enemy in the air is the key to win with Zss. Dsmash should be only seen as (really useful) bonus, if you ask me.

I am pretty much happy, that you agree with me. Making my first more in deep post on Swf :cool:
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

Smash Legend
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PapaMink
I've been noticing initially alot of my Dsmash usage was charging and waiting for my opponent to make a dumb mis-space or bad airdodge. But as of lately, 40-65% of the time i end up getting punished while charging it or using it in general.
 

ZeroN92

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
28
Yup. Something I noticed a long time ago with ZSS is that if you want to do well, then sometimes you have to be okay with getting low% punishes like dtilt or dash attack simply because they provide such a good positional advantage, and cause dsmash isn't going to work every time.

Nice points there.

I also agree with everything mentioned here, and think this is a very good write up. I always thought that people used her downsmashed alittle too much but. i thought i was alone on that thought lol
 

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
What do you think about that?

Nick Riddle: dealwithit.jpg :awesome:

:phone:
Well, I feel like the move itself is simply amazing because of our frame advantage on shield. To be able to jab before they can punish is godlike, and should be used more. I totally agree with taking some down tilts for a more solid punish, but it is a large part of our punish and spacing game. Its really hard to punish the cool down; however, the start up is punishable. MK is a scary character to play against (if they know what they are doing) And I do feel the higher level the player, the more we have to cut the move.
 

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
268
I agree with the frame advantage and that stuff!
But i dont like the jab after the dsmash. Jab can be punished so easily :( if i do only one jab i get punished by a fast attack, and the whole jab is a powershield. Maybe i am doing something wrong with that move?

also is really jab faster than a shieldgrab? I feel like, if the dsmash is spaced bad the enemy gets a free shieldgrab (maybe i am just too slow)

just some questions, all in all i agree with your post

:phone:

:phone:
 
Joined
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If they PS it isn't faster

If they're just holding shield when you dsmash, buffering a jab is faster than anything except marth/mario/bowser
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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if you charge dSmash it gets safer :awesome:

and yeah, jab 1 on hit is like +1 frame after cancel xD so it's pretty safe if you hit it and pretty hard (annoying?) to punish on shield too imo
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
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D-smash is like 0 on shield.
Down-b is FRAME 1 invulnerability.
If they don't hit your down-b, they literally can do NOTHING before it comes out.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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dSmash is -5 uncharged
-0 fully charged (+1?)

if you jab uncharged it can be grab armored
downB is invincible from frame 1-12 so if you buffer it it cannot be grabbed.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
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HOLY **** THAT EXPLAINS IT
This whole time I've been under the impression that dsmash is -1 on shield uncharged and 0 charged

Then I would dsmashOS-->jab1 and get grabbed cause of grab armor and I'd be like "Really? I didn't time that properly? I swear I buffered it"
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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no MK's upB is too slow.

Marth's upB comes out on frame5 so besides your spacing being terrible, he has to time it perfectly.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
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Uh, if dsmash is -5 on shield then neither will work.
Jump squat for MK is 5 frames, and for Marth it is 6 frames.

So even if both of their upBs came out on frame 1, they still wouldn't be able to hit us.
 

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
268
I am ****ing tired of using it too much.
it's just i know it won't work, but it's just so broken, i cant resist pressing c-stick down LOL (especially on tournament set)

it's just a habit almost every zss main has.

:phone:
 

Coolwhip

Smash Champion
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Yeah, if your damage is hiigh enough to the point where mario's up-b can become a kill move. xD
 

smashkng

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Marth's Up b is invincible on FRAMES 1-5 and HITS from frame 5. MK's grounded Up b is invincible on frames 5-8 and hits from frame 7. That's why you can't reliably shield pressure Marth with anything without spacing outside the Up b hitbox.
 
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Probably

I mean realistically when we dash up to someone we only have a few ways to go from the ground... and dash attack our fastest option and has the most followup opportunities

I udnerstand the obvious downsides and I too struggle with overusing the move, but there's a reason we do it... ZSS' like... neutral approaches, for lack of a better term, lack a bit. I mean in a straight "dash up to guy" situation ZSS only has a few buttons to push. :\
 
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