Machiavelli.CF
Ivy of the West
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I put together a quick video of a bunch of Ivysaur techniques I've found over time, most of which seem unknown.
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Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir
- Start date
That was great! I had no idea that Seed Bomb cloud's hitbox was high enough to use from below. I didn't know that Synthesis affected Pikmin during the charging and execution of Smashes, and I didn't know that N-Air was reasonably good at blocking projectiles--That will certainly help in a number of matchups. Thanks for sharing!
does nair block falco lasers?
No, Falco lasers can't be clanked.
Nominate10
Smash Journeyman
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Unfortunately the best option vs Link is to just pressure him aggressively.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Where do I take my ivy salt?
Want to complain about how completely broken this character is.
Want to complain about how completely broken this character is.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
How do you think water is wet? ~_~
She's far too safe onstage, and completely invincible offstage (not to mention having one of the best recoveries in the game). Kind of similar issues to mewtwo: moves are stupid long range and fast, and lack any sort of reasonable lag behind them. Punishing a competent Ivysaur is pretty much impossible for most characters without getting consistent hard reads.
That the upB is a guaranteed kill in one of the largest hitboxes in the game (and basically instant) just adds insult to injury.
Her design completely invalidates every large character in the game. Bowser, D3, DK, Zard, Ganon can't jump fast enough to get over Razor Leaf without getting hit by Ivy's fair. Shielding it is a guaranteed grab for Ivy, as is spotdodging, and CCing (because they can't act while the Leaf still overlaps them). It's also next to impossible for her to miss Vine Whip on any of these characters, and her edgeguards on DK and Bowser are beyond free. I'd rather play Melee Bowser vs Sheik than PM Bowser vs Ivy.
She has by far the best, and easiest, edgeguard game in PM. Use bair-> receive kill. Miss (though if you miss with that move PM probably isn't your game) -> who cares? You're totally safe. You also have the option of the spike with the enormous hitbox that, for some reason, pops you up just in case you were actually at risk of dying while getting an offstage kill.
I could go on, but the overall problem is that Ivy almost never has to take any risks, the other player almost always has to work much, much harder than the Ivy, as well as taking more risks and getting more hard reads to end up even.
I don't mean to sound hostile here, but if this isn't all super obvious to you, I suspect that you've never had to play against a competent ivy using any other non-spacie character.
There are a few who have even (or possibly better) MUs on her: fox, falco, *maybe* wolf, falcon, lucas, Diddy, but even those characters have lost the very instant they wind up offstage. Everyone else that I can think of has an overwhelmingly uphill battle in this matchup.
EDIT: yes, I'm aware of the futility of telling a bunch of Ivy players how little skill their character requires. :/
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She does kind of **** on big characters, but, IMO, none of those characters are very viable against the cast as a whole to begin with. 
Outside of N-Air and landing aerials in general, her moveset is pretty susceptible to spotdodges.
You can clank with Razor Leaf via a shuffled aerial or pretty much anything, really. Mix in dashdancing to mask when you're clanking it and it will be largely ineffective.
If your character has a projectile, you can force her to come to you. Ivysaur B-Air clanks with many of the weak ones, but she doesn't get anything from it and she's generally bad at spacing around them.
If she grabs you, throw -> Up-B is a 50/50, but you have to DI straight left/right instead of up-left/up-right.
I feel that her greatest limitation is that while her individual options are generally very good, her mobility options are pretty limited, so you never have to worry about her shuffling a quick aerial from a runjump. You know where she's gonna swing, so it's all about responding appropriately from there instead of having to respect a lot of space that characters often control via dashdancing.
Outside of N-Air and landing aerials in general, her moveset is pretty susceptible to spotdodges.
You can clank with Razor Leaf via a shuffled aerial or pretty much anything, really. Mix in dashdancing to mask when you're clanking it and it will be largely ineffective.
If your character has a projectile, you can force her to come to you. Ivysaur B-Air clanks with many of the weak ones, but she doesn't get anything from it and she's generally bad at spacing around them.
If she grabs you, throw -> Up-B is a 50/50, but you have to DI straight left/right instead of up-left/up-right.
I feel that her greatest limitation is that while her individual options are generally very good, her mobility options are pretty limited, so you never have to worry about her shuffling a quick aerial from a runjump. You know where she's gonna swing, so it's all about responding appropriately from there instead of having to respect a lot of space that characters often control via dashdancing.
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The range is what makes Ivy safe, not the frame data. She averages -9 on shield, except for nair and razor leaf. A whole lot of the cast outcamps Ivy with dash dances and projectiles due to her low speed and rate of fire. Her approaches are terrible and you can abuse them, as long as you can make her approach. Just because Bowser can't doesn't mean it's Ivy who should be "fixed". As Reflex said, heavies get too much love in the current version. I should know, I play DK. And trust me you don't need Ivy's bair to get a free edgeguard on DK lol
As Bowser, I'd say you need to crouch cancel a lot, and pick stages with platforms to get around razor leaves more easily. Pick small stages so both of you die early, which means you'll be in a position to crouch cancel more often, and getting gimped will make a slightly smaller difference than it would on a big stage.
It's definitely not in your favor I'll give you that.
As Bowser, I'd say you need to crouch cancel a lot, and pick stages with platforms to get around razor leaves more easily. Pick small stages so both of you die early, which means you'll be in a position to crouch cancel more often, and getting gimped will make a slightly smaller difference than it would on a big stage.
It's definitely not in your favor I'll give you that.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
That's fair enough, I just pray you guys find it in your hearts to someday make Bowser playable. =/She does kind of **** on big characters, but, IMO, none of those characters are very viable against the cast as a whole to begin with.
Ivy doesn't quite 100-0 the rest of the cast, but I don't see how anyone can argue that she's balanced.
Uh, kind of like the rest of the cast? I don't see how this is relevant.
Yeah, Razor Leaf isn't a huge problem for anyone but the big guys.
Hilariously, the best way to kill her with M2 or Samus seems to be "Blast her through the leaf" :D
I'm more concerned with the many characters that don't have projectiles like this. Luigi/kirby/GnW/Ike/Jiggly/wario/etc just get hosed. They can clank, but the timing is tricky and leaves them in neutral at best.
No, luigi's lame laggy fireball doesn't count >=(
Good point, thanks.
It doesn't work for the big guys iirc - not that it matters because she can just spam it against them with no risk. Otherwise, yeah.
Her options are limited, but utterly safe. Due to the range and speed of the attacks, you simply cannot punish Ivy without getting consistent hard reads, especially if she keeps retreating to the ledge - God help you if you fall behind against her.
You could be right.
Razor Leaf is so slow to come out post-2.6 I am amazed every time it lands. Even when it does land, you can SDI out of it so quickly it practically makes it inert. It's an okay zoning tool, but if someone approaches you with it you should start laughing and punish them for it.
Swann
Smash Journeyman
The only reason razor leaf is even reasonably "okay" is because almost everyone is absolutely terrified of getting hit by it.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Probably because it's a guaranteed grab (if you don't SDI perfectly) into 50/50 death from vine whip.
It's not like it's chance based or anything, just see which throw is done before you begin to DI, lol. And you can SDI out of it(Razor Leaf) so easily... Ivy's run and grab are so slow if you're getting grabbed out of it, you did something wrong and deserve the punish.
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Would be nice, but that would be really hard to do in the current metagame without making him straight-up bonkers, similar to 2.5 Ivysaur or something.
I would argue that this game isn't all that balanced at high-level play to begin with, but, it's whatever.
She has a floaty jump that necessitates a late aerial in order for it to be utterly safe, but if people dash forward at the right time, she's forced to swing early, which is reactable (F-Air starts on Frame 15 and doesn't start hitting horizontally until ~16). B-Air is reactable via CC and can be shielded or spotdodged after taking the first hit. Like against most characters, superior dashdancing ****s on her neutral game and she's forced to hard read while those characters don't have to make much of a real commitment until Ivysaur puts herself in a compromising position. Thaaaaat's Melee!
For all it's worth, I think Ike, Kirby, and Wario at least go even with Ivysaur, if not better. It is not hard to clank with Razor Leaf from mid-to-long range, and if you're any closer, you should be jumping over it and getting in on Ivysaur for using such a slow option that close. All of Razor Leaf's hits are CC-able and the grab is Frame 13--Again, pretty reactable considering how she has to get closer than her optimal range to make it work, causing it to be pretty telegraphed in that case. If you move around before clanking or shielding Razor Leaf, Ivysaur has more to react to which would make her follow-up riskier, less well-spaced, etc.
Trying holding horizontally and slightly downward, like for a perfect wavedash. That's about the optimal angle for getting out of the grab.
Like I've said before, the more traditional defensive options do a number on her and generally make her significantly less rewarding. CC, rolls/spotdodges, dashdancing. Just outmaneuver her with most characters and you'll get a lot more bang for your buck.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
I couldn't disagree more vehemently.
http://smashboards.com/threads/king-koopas-new-digs-3-0-edition.343621/page-8#post-16444942
Some of that stuff might be tough on a technical level, but the character can absolutely be rescued.
Agreed.
Decent points, but this still completely disregards her invincibility on and around the ledge. Fair is only reactable on the ground (ie. the Infinite Range Grab Zone), and if she nairs instead landing behind, you got problems.
Ike, sure. I'd even buy Kirby if it was remotely possible for him to finish a kill on Ivy (it's not), but I'll have to take your word for Wario.
Yup, this is fair enough for non-Large chars!
Irrelevant, given how many hits there are. If you CC it, you're getting grabbed, because you can't stop CCing it til it's all the way through.
Uh, barely - and it's still way outside almost everyone else's optimal range.
Fair enough.
Will try. You make a lot of legitimate points, but I think you seriously underestimate how significant the combination of her range and utter lack of lag is.
Nominate10
Smash Journeyman
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please improve your prediction and punishing game.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Please provide relevant input instead of just insults.
Jesus. I disagree with Reflex on some stuff but at least he has the common courtesy to actually communicate instead of just playing the defensive douchebag card.
BS. I've been saying Mewtwo is broken for 6 months, nobody paid attention until someone other M2K won with him.
Nobody's taken the time to practice with a broken character != the character isn't broken.
It's not like my points are unfalsifiable. If it could be demonstrated that it were remotely possible to consistently edgeguard Ivy, or punish her mistakes, or get her off the ledge, it'd be pretty damn easy to shame me. I've been watching videos of Ivy matchups all weekend, haven't really seen a single game lost by an Ivy where he wasn't undeniably far, far outplayed by the other player - and even then it's typically pretty close.
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Mmm...Edgeguarding, perhaps. I wouldn't say so with her getting back on the stage. I would say getting off the ledge is actually pretty hard for her, though it takes a different approach to stuff her option. F-Air is quite slow and spotdodging when you expect her to ledgehop allows you to get good frame advantage with most characters. Alternatively, you can do a basic dashdance to avoid it and tag her afterward. Her other options are N-Air (which has little range) and a ledge jump, which puts her in a compromising position. If you're hit by F-Air you get screwed, but it's not hard to take the proper precautions. Yes, she can get to the ledge without much trouble but getting off the ledge is pretty difficult. That said, I think the ledge mechanics are stupid, period. Invincibility while in neutral position is bonkers, and we have both ledge jump and ledgehop waveland for that now...
When she jumps in neutral, you can choose a basic dashdance to get around F-Air or to stick out a move to trade/beat N-Air; standard neutral RPS stuff, IMO. Close F-Air is bad for Ivysaur so if you're making it difficult to predict where you are (via good movement) she's forced to make compromising decisions if she wants to swing at you. B-Air is a safe compromise between the two but doesn't net follow-ups, and it has the problem of the first hit being CC-able, as I mentioned before. It can be a hit-confirm for the opponent!
Kirby has an D-Throw infinite on Ivysaur, or so I hear.
That said, Kirby's small size can help him to get around stuff like F-Air better than most characters. I guess I'm not a Kirby main, but it's never felt great to me.Razor Leaf multi-hits happen every 10 frames. CC makes it so there's no hitstun to deal with, so that gives you a huge window to throw out your Frame 2 spotdodge or a Frame 3-4 roll between hits. A lot of characters have Down-Bs, D-Tilts and D-Smashes that are faster than that, too, which can be down while continuously holding down to CC. A Mario CC-ing Razor Leaf can insert a D-Smash between each hit of the leaf, for instance (doing this right now in Training Mode). I'm not sure why you thought otherwise, but the idea that CC is bad against Razor Leaf couldn't be further from the truth, and it's a big reason why Razor Leaf is actually a pretty bad projectile except in specific tech chase positions.
One-third of Ivysaur's Dash and Pivot Grabs (the outer parts) and 40% of the Standing Grab is ground-only, for all it's worth. That can be abused to lower the effectiveness of an otherwise well-spaced Dash Grab. As far as people's optimal ranges, because Ivysaur doesn't have the freedom to move around as well as many characters in neutral (due to what moves she must rely on to mount a strong offense and/or defense), the area in which Ivysaur is a potential threat is smaller than the average. PM is largely played in constant movement, and that's why the area a character like Captain Falcon can potentially threaten at any given instant is way bigger than Ivysaur. I think mobility is the strongest tool one could have in this engine, and that's why it's the greatest threat to Ivysaur in the neutral game (and, consequently, PM, period).
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Also, it looks like because of the difference in release points between U-Throw and D-Throw (U-Throw being immediately above Ivysaur and D-Throw being below and in front of Ivysaur), U-Throw has a more favorable angle for follow-ups than D-Throw if the opponent's DI is the same amount of correct/incorrect. It looks like U-Throw -> Up-B may actually be inescapable on fatties at around the 50-60% range in 3.02. That's rough.
Yeah I see that U-throw getting changed in the next patch. I'll miss it, but I'll also understand. How about making that d-smash come out faster in exchange?
Nothing crazy like less than frame 5 or anything, but a single digit would be nice, 6 or 7 would be reasonable, I think.
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Yep. watch game 1 of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmKPzkz3wME&list=PLD1yysrzSn62i9T-vXld1M6tknEWZrrrhKirby has an D-Throw infinite on Ivysaur, or so I hear.
Starting at around 30%, the regrab becomes inescapable as long as the Kirby's execution is on point. It's even worse on floatier characters; Kirby can d-throw infinite himself, puff, and I'm sure others at 0%.
I think U-throw is fine since Ivy's grab is kinda bad anyways. I do think vine whip's knockback might have to be reduced a bit though.Yeah I see that U-throw getting changed in the next patch. I'll miss it, but I'll also understand. How about making that d-smash come out faster in exchange?
Nothing crazy like less than frame 5 or anything, but a single digit would be nice, 6 or 7 would be reasonable, I think.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
That Ivy's DI is godawful, will have to test.
@
TheReflexWonder
super insightful post, thank you. I'm not convinced that Ivy is anywhere near balanced, but that's a hell of a start: I'll have to work on some stuff in the lab when I'm able.What would you regard as her worst matchups? I've looked at the MU thread, and that guy has no idea what he's talking about -- which is why I ask for your opinion specifically.
Lol, DI only makes it a little harder for Kirby to regrab. Most of the time I was holding down and away, but it didn't really matter. Hard left/right is probably optimal DI.
If you want to test it, I'd suggest doing it at higher damage since it's easier then. It definitely takes a bit of practice to get down the timing.
Stutterfoot
Smash Rookie
Yo I didn't read this thread at all but my friend told me to come here and tell you guys what I think of Ivysaur. Dumb, OP, Safe, Free Recovery, Lives Forever. Even the scrubbiest Ivysaurs frustrate the hell out of me. I'm not a fan of M2 or Pit but its Ivy that completely ruins the game for me. I still like PM but playing against any Ivysaur is like pulling my teeth out.
I'll probably get flamed and called a scrub for this but honestly its just my opinion. I've been playing this game since 2.5... Melee competitively for like the last year and a half.
I'll probably get flamed and called a scrub for this but honestly its just my opinion. I've been playing this game since 2.5... Melee competitively for like the last year and a half.
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TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Whoa whoa slow down haha. Please give reasoning behind your opinions
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Still can't replicate this. Hold the stick away from Kirby.
At least one of us is messing up really badly. Maybe both.
Also, seriously, Ivy has one of the best grabs in the game. It's got the range of Samus's, comes out 4 frames faster (and actually hits the whole range at once unlike other terrible tethers - yours is nearly 3 times as fast if we're talking full extension), and has half the endlag. If you're getting punished for missed grabs, you need to fix your spacing.
I also haven't mentinoed Ivy's upsmash has comparable KB to Fox's in a hitbox about the size of Bowser's body. Or the fact that it's impossible for her to get caught in the air due to her ridiculous uair. Didn't think I needed to. :/
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Is it the standing grab that is most frustrating for you or the dash grab? I'm almost always dash grabbing, myself...I'll take the endlag that is equivalent to the average jump-cancel grab over non-mobile extra range with much more endlag nine times out of ten.
Ivysaur U-Smash has a sweetspot at the bottom of the bulb; the rest of it isn't nearly as powerful.
U-Air is negatively disjointed and can usually be tagged pretty easily if you're below her trying to anticipate it/juggle her.
I'm not quite sure who I'd peg as Ivysaur's absolute worst matchups, but it's generally characters with good dashdances that give her the most trouble, IMO. I'll think about it.
Ivysaur U-Smash has a sweetspot at the bottom of the bulb; the rest of it isn't nearly as powerful.
U-Air is negatively disjointed and can usually be tagged pretty easily if you're below her trying to anticipate it/juggle her.
I'm not quite sure who I'd peg as Ivysaur's absolute worst matchups, but it's generally characters with good dashdances that give her the most trouble, IMO. I'll think about it.
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Stutterfoot
Smash Rookie
I'm not the best at this I don't usually post on the forums or go into depth about character balance and such but I'll try to go a little bit deeper.
I don't think a character that can be played so safely, (In a very jiggly puff esque way) should have the survivability Ivysaur does. Getting in on Ivysaur is not rewarding enough when it is so difficult to do. Ivysaurs punish, combo and edgeguard game are very good. Backair edgeguards are free. Ivysaur can camp out most characters mercilessly (especially considering Ivy can heal) and then stuff approaches and convert into huge punishes with relative ease. I admit I'm not the biggest SDI'er out there so I might find Razor Leaf more annoying than others do, but that is frustrating to deal with as well. Ftilt seems like an insanely safe poking move (honestly all of Ivy's moved do). Run up shield doesn't seem to every work out for me cause Ivy can fade back a lot with arials. Ivysaur's recovery is really good (I call this game Project Make it Back Everytime lol). The tether is really hard to punish even compared to other characters with tethers such as Link. Ivy's tether seems to snap to the edge rather quickly and even if you knock her out of her tether somehow away from the stage they will still make it back with ease and all you've accomplished is putting yourself in a riskier situation. If you hold the ledge so she has to jump over you when retracting the tether, she jumps really far into the stage and seems hard to punish that way as well.
Admittedly my region is dominated by an Ivy player and has been for the last year. We have much better players fundamentally who have attended international tournaments in Melee and Brawl losing to them consistently, despite studying and trying to overcome the MU. Were pretty salty about that I guess.
I don't think a character that can be played so safely, (In a very jiggly puff esque way) should have the survivability Ivysaur does. Getting in on Ivysaur is not rewarding enough when it is so difficult to do. Ivysaurs punish, combo and edgeguard game are very good. Backair edgeguards are free. Ivysaur can camp out most characters mercilessly (especially considering Ivy can heal) and then stuff approaches and convert into huge punishes with relative ease. I admit I'm not the biggest SDI'er out there so I might find Razor Leaf more annoying than others do, but that is frustrating to deal with as well. Ftilt seems like an insanely safe poking move (honestly all of Ivy's moved do). Run up shield doesn't seem to every work out for me cause Ivy can fade back a lot with arials. Ivysaur's recovery is really good (I call this game Project Make it Back Everytime lol). The tether is really hard to punish even compared to other characters with tethers such as Link. Ivy's tether seems to snap to the edge rather quickly and even if you knock her out of her tether somehow away from the stage they will still make it back with ease and all you've accomplished is putting yourself in a riskier situation. If you hold the ledge so she has to jump over you when retracting the tether, she jumps really far into the stage and seems hard to punish that way as well.
Admittedly my region is dominated by an Ivy player and has been for the last year. We have much better players fundamentally who have attended international tournaments in Melee and Brawl losing to them consistently, despite studying and trying to overcome the MU. Were pretty salty about that I guess.
Edit: Reflex, which grab is better, dash or standing? Or are they both good in different situations?
Dubble Edit: Meant to edit, not reply.
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The Standing Grab has significantly more range (five grab-boxes as compared to three) but has something like 15 extra frames of endlag, I think (don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head). Given my obsession over the idea that mobility is super-strong in the Smash series, I feel the Dash Grab is generally more useful, especially since Ivysaur's Standing Grab is too slow to expect it to be useful as a shield-grab to deal with pressure.
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Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Those figures were straight from the frame data, I was referring to the standing grab -- i didn't check the dash grabs.
@TheReflexWonder
I can sorta see the dashdance thing, but almost nobody (maybe fox, CF, squirtle, Sonic) can punish her on reaction while DDing - her moves just don't have enough lag, and her air speed is way too good - like a Jigglypuff with about twice as much range basically, even with the fair. The bair is even safer. You have to get extremely lucky, or a hard read unless your character is in the extremely small minority that moves fast enough to punish that nonsense.
You're seriously overrating mobility in response to Ivy's safety, I think.
I think our local Ivies use mostly dashgrabs.
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It's not about straight-up punishing her on reaction--Your general presence in the mid-range very much encourages her to swing (lest you get to pressure her without her putting up much of a fight), but you still have to make a guess after she swings. The cooldown is generally enough to be able to force her hand into whether or not she goes to B-Air, DJ F-Air, or one of her grounded tools. If you're willing to play it patiently (and you should), you can take the passive route and make this situation happen repeatedly in order to slowly gain stage control since her dashdance game is nothing special and she generally has to move backward in order to make those pre-emptive swings safe.
When did I become an Ivysaur apologist? All my secrets are being revealed. x_x
When did I become an Ivysaur apologist? All my secrets are being revealed. x_x
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