Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[kevinw0w]

Still can't replicate this. Hold the stick away from Kirby.

At least one of us is messing up really badly. Maybe both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfDgznvrfJA

Same Kirby as before, but vs. Denti. Laser Kirby told me he was the first one to find the infinite and that the timing is actually quite strict. I've seen him pull it off with greater success than in this video, but this was the first example that came to mind.

 

[Frost | Odds]

stuff

Please don't take this the wrong way, I really don't mean to be rude -- but this just looks like word salad to me.

Your general presence in the mid-range very much encourages her to swing (lest you get to pressure her without her putting up much of a fight), but you still have to make a guess after she swings.

So we're agreed that it is necessary to get a hard read in order to hit Ivy at all. Do you see why this might be a problem -- especially because the reverse is absolutely never the case due to how many long range, utterly safe moves Ivy has?

The cooldown is generally enough to be able to force her hand into whether or not she goes to B-Air, DJ F-Air, or one of her grounded tools.

Sure, but that doesn't mean we can punish it.

If you're willing to play it patiently (and you should), you can take the passive route and make this situation happen repeatedly in order to slowly gain stage control

Since when is stage control relevant? Ivy only needs to get a 1% lead and camp the ledge anyway. It's not like she suffers any disadvantage from being down there- if she misses her ledgehop fair, almost nobody can punish her before she regains ledge invincibility.

Yeah, stage control helps by virtue of not getting free-edgeguarded by her ridiculous bair, and is therefore necessary, but for pretty much every other character, there's actual disadvantages to being on the ledge. :/

I also hate disagreeing with you b/c you're kind of my hero for playing wario

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfDgznvrfJA

Same Kirby as before, but vs. Denti. Laser Kirby told me he was the first one to find the infinite and that the timing is actually quite strict. I've seen him pull it off with greater success than in this video, but this was the first example that came to mind.

Cool, thanks. Looks like that CG is too strict (1 frame? 2? especially because you need to react to DI :/) to swing that matchup anywhere close to Kirby's favor. Ivy's uthrow is still a 50/50 kill, it's still impossible for Kirby to ever recover, he still dies at stupid low percents to usmash and uair, and Kirby still has no kill setups on Ivy.

Dthrow->Fsmash does NOT work, btw -- Denti's DI sucks in this game too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You play Bowser, right? It's like how dashdancing forces slow characters to swing preemptively to avoid the potential attack in neutral position. Ivysaur's generally slow movement makes it so that this is necessary for her in most cases. Opponents can react to that and then get to make a RPS-ish decision that is absolutely normal and common with approaches. Yes, some speed is required to do this reliably, but this is not a game for slow characters, because Melee. This is not the same thing as a hard read, and if the opponent is moving well, Ivysaur's hits will usually require similar decision-making.

Stage control is relevant because when Ivysaur doesn't have any other space to move, she can't retreating B-Air to stay safe, which makes protecting herself more difficult. I already talked about how I feel about ledge mechanics (they're awful; Smash 4 hype) and what the preferred way to fight an Ivysaur on the ledge is. I'm not sure that there is a whole lot else I can say on that.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You play Bowser, right?

No, I haven't been able to play Bowser in months because Ivy completely invalidates him. It's literally a 100-0 matchup because Bowser cannot avoid Ivy's grab, and he can't escape the uthrow -> upB. I've switched to Roy, though he still gets hosed, but at least there's lots of Sethlon vs Reflex Denti to study.

I cannot stress enough that the existence of Ivysaur as-is has prevented me from playing the only character I ever really wanted to play in Smash Bros. I regularly beat local marths, sheiks, and every other awful bowser matchup, but the Ivy matchup is utterly impossible.

Our entire local meta is determined by "is it reasonably possible for this character to beat Ivysaur?"

The answer is almost always "no". This really isn't just my salt - Ivysaur has been ruining our local PM scene since 2.6. No, that's not an exaggeration - every single event, there's untold amounts of cries of "wow that character is such bs", driving melee and brawl players away, and making people stop caring about or quit PM entirely. The collective research into characters, counterplay, etc by our entire leaderboard has been entirely useless for that whole time. We're not idiots, nor are we just resting on our laurels here. I don't know what it'll take to convince you guys that there's a legitimate problem.

There's a couple better characters overall, sure (see: spacies) - but they're orders of magnitude more fun and intuitive to play against; they're not actively variance-resistant and utterly safe, they require real tech skill by their pilot, and their matchups aren't completely polarized such that they completely invalidate a large chunk of the cast.

It's like how dashdancing forces slow characters to swing preemptively to avoid the potential attack in neutral position. Ivysaur's generally slow movement makes it so that this is necessary for her in most cases. Opponents can react to that and then get to make a RPS-ish decision that is absolutely normal and common with approaches. This is not the same thing as a hard read,

You literally just described a hard read. You need to predict exactly what Ivy is going to do, or you don't get your punish.

I feel like I must be ********, or otherwise somehow missing something here. :/

and if the opponent is moving well, Ivysaur's hits will usually require similar decision-making.

Not really - this is the entire problem with how safe her design is. She plays Rock Paper Scissors, sure, but her Paper doesn't actually lose to Scissors - it just resets to neutral. She can just keep throwing Paper out at no risk, and her opponent is screwed if at any point he decides to throw out a Rock.

Uh, analogies. woo

Stage control is relevant because when Ivysaur doesn't have any other space to move, she can't retreating B-Air to stay safe, which makes protecting herself more difficult. I already talked about how I feel about ledge mechanics (they're awful; Smash 4 hype) and what the preferred way to fight an Ivysaur on the ledge is. I'm not sure that there is a whole lot else I can say on that.

Maybe.

I'm not claiming that I'm a perfect player dude, or that beating Ivy is impossible - only that it's nearly impossible for an equal-skilled player of almost any other cast member to beat an equal-skilled Ivy. Even if it weren't, the matchup would be beyond frustrating due mostly to Ivy's ability to completely autopilot and force all the risks and decision making to the other player.

For what it's worth, pretty much everything I've said applies to Mewtwo as well - though I think he's even more of a problem than Ivysaur.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I absolutely do not believe that Bowser vs. Ivy is 100:0, or even close to that. We can talk how to approach the matchup if you want, but Bowser has some solid options for not losing too much control in neutral, which is a significant part of this, and any character can avoid the grab if they're looking out for it...

I'm not sure what moves Ivysaur can stick out at no risk to the player. There's really, like, B-Air, which often requires you to be retreating to keep it safe. Everything else has fairly simple counterplay, IMO. Yes, Ivysaur is allowed to whiff moves, but if you're not in optimal sweetspot range for them (which aren't big sweetspots), they generally don't net her anything useful. Good dashdances do much of the same thing except they allow for greater flexibility and do not deal slight amounts of damage.

Look, I get that there's salt; she's a polarizing character. We (the PMBR, not the Ivy players ) are looking to make the game as fun as we can for everyone, which is part of why Ivysaur got so many nerfs in 3.0 to tone down egregious issues. It might do some good to watch what some of the higher-level Ivysaur players are losing to, in order to see what decisions led to that. If it's "the Ivysaur just chose poor options when they had full control," show us so that you can better make your point about the neutral being utterly skewed toward Ivysaur's favor (which I generally don't believe in 3.02). If it's "the opponent was just a step ahead," show us so that we can see how much work is happening between the two players. If there's more to it, then maybe we can all learn from it.

Either way, I'm not sure why this discussion is happening here. Ivysaur players aren't looking for reasons to explain the weaknesses of their character, and the PMBR is keeping a close eye on the metagame and its players for the next version. I want to help, but I still have to recommend that you take some of the earlier discussion and try to think about it the next time you play first. I personally feel that Ivysaur is maybe slightly better than mid tier, and that your claims are at least somewhat overblown.

 

[TreK]

Ftilt seems like an insanely safe poking move

*loudly coughs*

 

[Jams.]

Is any other region nearly as salty about Ivysaur as my region? It seems like Ivysaur salt died in most places after the 3.0 nerfs.

our local Ivy players are dramatically worse players than those playing our MKs, Foxes, Sheiks, etc.

The disrespect. X.x

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser has some solid options for not losing too much control in neutral

I guess that just about says everything.

I'm sorry for apparently wasting your time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I guess that just about says everything.

I'm sorry for apparently wasting your time.

He does, though, in that matchup. If you're going to continue to be smarmy about it when I'm trying to help, then you're welcome for my previous advice, and I hope you figure it all out.

 

[Frost | Odds]

He does, though, in that matchup. If you're going to continue to be smarmy about it when I'm trying to help, then you're welcome for my previous advice, and I hope you figure it all out.

I really do appreciate it; I'm just absolutely floored that you think Bowser has a chance in the neutral game in that matchup, and cannot fathom what you might be thinking.

I'm happy to continue the discussion where we left off, but you seemed to indicate that you were done, and I didn't want to further antagonize you.

 

[Montu Hotep]

It seems like this character is susceptible to chain grabs. I played against a chain grabbing marth and a chain grabbing ness. Is there a proper DI? I could tech sometimes but I usually didnt hit the ground. Any tips?

 

[Nominate10]

Ivy does seem to have that 'perfect' weight for chaingrabs. A big example is Kirby's downthrow chaingrab. I'm almost positive its impossible to DI out of it.

Marth is a tricky one too - usually DIing away is the best option but you have to be careful because if the Marth predicts this option, he can fsmash you away pretty badly. So it kinda comes down to a guessing game.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'd like to make clear that i don't think Ivy is favored in every matchup (loses kinda badly to spacies and a few others: probably diddy, pikachu, MK)- but many of her winning ones are just completely overwhelming. Bowser is probably the worst of these.

What I want for Ivy is precisely the same as what I want for Bowser: a more even matchup spread, so that everyone can actually compete. I'm not an expert on Ivy's bad matchups, so some of the overwhelmingly good ones are all I really feel qualified to talk about.

We can talk how to approach the matchup if you want, but Bowser has some solid options for not losing too much control in neutral, which is a significant part of this,

Alright, the worst of the salt has passed- please enlighten me.

and any character can avoid the grab if they're looking out for it...

Absolutely not. Bowser has 9 frames of jump squat, meaning that if he is to avoid the grab, he must not only be miraculously dodging the inevitable razor leaf, but his pilot needs to jump within the first 6 frames of Ivy's grab (much sooner, in fact, to clear the hitbox entirely) -- a reaction time significantly better than most humans can manage even if they're not sussing it out from an ambiguous animation.

If he gets the hard read and does jump, Ivy gets a free upB or fair or whatever he pleases. Perhaps you see the problem.

Bowser's spotdodge is pretty laughable. I hope you're not referring to that. :<

show us [ivies making bad decisions]

Will do at some later point.

Either way, I'm not sure why this discussion is happening here.

Because I love PM, and I want very badly for it to be the best, and best balanced, game it can possibly be. I'm not in the PMBR, so I have to get your attention wherever I can.

To wit, this:

I personally feel that Ivysaur is maybe slightly better than mid tier

scares the bejeezus out of me. If this reflects the opinion of the PMBR in general, I'm deeply concerned for the future of the game.

 

[Nominate10]

Bowser has other, faster options to beat the grab as well. Jumping isn't his only answer to a grab.

If Ivysaur was really as OP as you make her out to be, don't you think that would be more of a big deal? Don't you think many more people would be complaining about this? Shouldn't Ivy be winning tournaments left and right, big and and small?

I'm not trying to insult you, but I really don't see where you're coming from and why, after all this discussion, you haven't even considered the possibility that you might be wrong.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser has other, faster options to beat the grab as well. Jumping isn't his only answer to a grab.

It is. His DD is nonexistent, and his only offensive options that can conceivably beat the grab are dtilt and ftilt. If either of those clanks with a razor leaf, Bowser gets grabbed. If he gets hit with the razor leaf, he gets grabbed. If he uses up-B, either the Ivy is awful at spacing or Bowser is getting grabbed.

If Bowser throws out a dtilt or ftilt and Ivy isn't committed to a grab, Ivy gets a free razor leaf or fair. If Ivy's spacing properly, she can even grab Bowser's arm.

If Ivysaur was really as OP as you make her out to be, don't you think that would be more of a big deal?

Argument from lack of popularity doesn't work. I was saying the same stuff about Mewtwo 7 months ago, nobody took me seriously then either.

I don't know why so few people have put the effort in to actually do well with Ivysaur. If I had to venture a guess, it'd probably relate to her one-note gameplay that lots of people probably find boring.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I really don't see where you're coming from and why, after all this discussion, you haven't even considered the possibility that you might be wrong.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I really don't see where you're coming from and why, after all this discussion, you haven't even considered the possibility that you might be wrong.

Perhaps you can see why comments like that are both insulting and profoundly unhelpful? Of course I've considered that I could be wrong - maybe you didn't read the wall of text post in which I elaborated.

 

[Nominate10]

Argument from lack of popularity doesn't work. I was saying the same stuff about Mewtwo 7 months ago, nobody took me seriously then either.

Then I suppose we'll just have to wait, becuase Ivysaur clearly isn't a problem right now. The PMBR can deal with issues that are actually relevant instead of jumping the gun on an unpopular opinion with no results to show.

Let's see if Ivy really does become the next Mewtwo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Then I suppose we'll just have to wait, becuase Ivysaur clearly isn't a problem right now.

Congratulations on ignoring literally everything I've said.

Don't really know what I'm supposed to do here. If I waste hours of my time picking through videos as Reflex requested, I'll just receive a one-word dismissal from each of you. I guess we're done. :/

 

[TreK]

I don't know why so few people have put the effort in to actually do well with Ivysaur.

Dude, I value freedom of opinion and stuff, but that's something very disrespectful to say. You just Ad Hominemmed hundreds of people you don't know the slightest thing about, here.

 

[GrosMinou]

Its ok to have bad match-ups anyways. There is 41 unique caracters, it would be very hard to have every matchup 50:50.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Dude, I value freedom of opinion and stuff, but that's something very disrespectful to say. You just Ad Hominemmed hundreds of people you don't know the slightest thing about, here.

My apologies. It's more likely to do with playstyle than skill imo: are you willing and patient enough to time your opponent out every single game?

 

[TimeSmash]

What is the gatling combo?? I asked this somewhere else as well, but am forever impatient haha

 

[Nominate10]

What is the gatling combo?? I asked this somewhere else as well, but am forever impatient haha

Do you know about DACUS? It's the same thing, except you can utilize the hitboxes of both the dash attack and the upsmash.
Basically, you do the same inputs for a DACUS, except you can do the first part (the dash attack), hit your opponent (this is necessary; can't gatling without contact), wait some frames, and then finish the inputs and upsmash.
A good character to practice this with is G&W. He has, IMO, one of the best and easiest gatling combos in PM.

 

[TimeSmash]

Ah thank you! I know of DACUS I just never practice it. But I probably will now after reading this!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'd like to make clear that i don't think Ivy is favored in every matchup (loses kinda badly to spacies and a few others: probably diddy, pikachu, MK)- but many of her winning ones are just completely overwhelming. Bowser is probably the worst of these.

What I want for Ivy is precisely the same as what I want for Bowser: a more even matchup spread, so that everyone can actually compete. I'm not an expert on Ivy's bad matchups, so some of the overwhelmingly good ones are all I really feel qualified to talk about.

Alright, the worst of the salt has passed- please enlighten me.

Absolutely not. Bowser has 9 frames of jump squat, meaning that if he is to avoid the grab, he must not only be miraculously dodging the inevitable razor leaf, but his pilot needs to jump within the first 6 frames of Ivy's grab (much sooner, in fact, to clear the hitbox entirely) -- a reaction time significantly better than most humans can manage even if they're not sussing it out from an ambiguous animation.

If he gets the hard read and does jump, Ivy gets a free upB or fair or whatever he pleases. Perhaps you see the problem.

Bowser's spotdodge is pretty laughable. I hope you're not referring to that. :<

Will do at some later point.

Because I love PM, and I want very badly for it to be the best, and best balanced, game it can possibly be. I'm not in the PMBR, so I have to get your attention wherever I can.

To wit, this:

scares the bejeezus out of me. If this reflects the opinion of the PMBR in general, I'm deeply concerned for the future of the game.

Flame Breath stops a lot of Ivysaur's ground game and prevents Ivysaur from getting aggressive. Stops Razor Leaf and grab--Stops most everything but fullhop aerials (F-Air is the biggest threat). It's a good enough reason to shorthop in neutral more against Ivysaur, as if you're in the air and she tries her standard options, you can actually react to a lot of them. Flame cancel Neutral-B against many ground options, waveland to help with spacing/unpredictability (Bowser's waveland isn't terrible; it's the jumpsquat that makes his wavedash bad), and double-jump F-Air to swat Ivysaur fullhop F-Air attempts. You have options; Ivysaur shouldn't get to do whatever she wants.

Since you're referring to it as "infinite grab range," I'm going to assume you mean Ivysaur's Standing Grab, given that Ivysaur's Dash Grab range is only slightly bigger than the average Jump-Cancel Grab. As such, I would definitely tell you to spotdodge; his spotdodge is improved from Melee, and Ivysaur Standing Grab has a lot of endlag.

Ivysaur Standing Grab comes out on Frame 14(/45, if you were wondering), and Bowser's spotdodge invincibility starts on Frame 3(/32, with invincibility lasting up to Frame 20). If you only managed to avoid the grab via spotdodge -just- in time (as in, your invincibility starts at the same frame that Ivysaur's grab starts), your frame advantage would be +1. Even better if you manage to anticipate it at all, which should be relatively easy considering optimal grab spacing is past optimal most-other-things spacing for Ivysaur. Bowser also has the unique trait of being completely unfazed by Razor Leaf while crouching/crawling due to his Crawl Armor, so he can move to throw off the spacing for said Standing Grab.

Also (and this is much, much more important for the matchup), Bowser's Dash Attack hitbox starts on Frame 10, has Medium Armor from Frame 1 to after the sweetspot ends, and has literally DOUBLE the range of Ivysaur Standing Grab from neutral position (technically the horizontal size is the same, but the lunge forward is a huge change, too). This move is your go-to for starting something in this matchup, as it plows through literally all of Ivysaur's normal spacing attacks. I'm testing right now and it armors through sweetspot F-Air at 130% (before the hit). You can also do an instant Dash Attack via C-Stick Down as soon as you start a run, so you can avoid an accidental F-Smash that way. Yes, this option is susceptible to shield (and therefore shieldgrab), but Bowser's Dash Grab has roughly the same amount of range and functions as his approaching mix-up.

And for all it's worth, my opinions often differ from the PMBR as a whole; I'm just one guy. We try not to make significant changes based on "tiers;" being a good character is not inherently bad for the game, but being polarizing certainly can be.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Flame Breath stops a lot of Ivysaur's ground game and prevents Ivysaur from getting aggressive.

Not really, Bowser just eats a fair.

Stops Razor Leaf and grab--Stops most everything but fullhop aerials (F-Air is the biggest threat). It's a good enough reason to shorthop in neutral more against Ivysaur, as if you're in the air and she tries her standard options, you can actually react to a lot of them. Flame cancel Neutral-B against many ground options, waveland to help with spacing/unpredictability (Bowser's waveland isn't terrible; it's the jumpsquat that makes his wavedash bad), and double-jump F-Air to swat Ivysaur fullhop F-Air attempts. You have options; Ivysaur shouldn't get to do whatever she wants.

Flame cancel was always one of my go-tos in every matchup. It's okay if the ivy doesn't know how to space, or that she's 100% safe fullhopping. Definitely not Bowser's worst option, though you're dramatically overstating its usefulness, and understating its lag.

Since you're referring to it as "infinite grab range," I'm going to assume you mean Ivysaur's Standing Grab, given that Ivysaur's Dash Grab range is only slightly bigger than the average Jump-Cancel Grab. As such, I would definitely tell you to spotdodge; his spotdodge is improved from Melee, and Ivysaur Standing Grab has a lot of endlag.

It's impossible to distinguish which is going to come out before it does, and reacting differently to standing vs dash grabs (especially when the roles of Ivy's standing/dash grabs are reversed from the entire rest of the cast save samus) requires waaaaaaaaay more effort than it does for the Ivy to simply mix it up - and might be impossible anyway. Spotdodge is only a decent option vs standing grab- if Bowser does it vs a dash, he's getting grabbed anyway, and is probably dead.

Ivysaur Standing Grab comes out on Frame 14(/45, if you were wondering), and Bowser's spotdodge invincibility starts on Frame 3(/32, with invincibility lasting up to Frame 20). If you only managed to avoid the grab via spotdodge -just- in time (as in, your invincibility starts at the same frame that Ivysaur's grab starts), your frame advantage would be +1. Even better if you manage to anticipate it at all, which should be relatively easy considering optimal grab spacing is past optimal most-other-things spacing for Ivysaur. Bowser also has the unique trait of being completely unfazed by Razor Leaf while crouching/crawling due to his Crawl Armor, so he can move to throw off the spacing for said Standing Grab.

That is some super relevant information, thanks!

Also (and this is much, much more important for the matchup), Bowser's Dash Attack hitbox starts on Frame 10, has Medium Armor from Frame 1 to after the sweetspot ends, and has literally DOUBLE the range of Ivysaur Standing Grab from neutral position (technically the horizontal size is the same, but the lunge forward is a huge change, too). This move is your go-to for starting something in this matchup, as it plows through literally all of Ivysaur's normal spacing attacks. I'm testing right now and it armors through sweetspot F-Air at 130% (before the hit). You can also do an instant Dash Attack via C-Stick Down as soon as you start a run, so you can avoid an accidental F-Smash that way. Yes, this option is susceptible to shield (and therefore shieldgrab), but Bowser's Dash Grab has roughly the same amount of range and functions as his approaching mix-up.

That's also really relevant, though I think you're again understating just how hard it is to hit with that move when Ivy has options like razor leaf and fair; as well as exactly how overwhelming Ivy's punish game on Bowser is.

And for all it's worth, my opinions often differ from the PMBR as a whole; I'm just one guy. We try not to make significant changes based on "tiers;" being a good character is not inherently bad for the game, but being polarizing certainly can be.

Every part of that is immensely reassuring, thank you.

Thanks again for sharing your time and knowledge. Sorry about the salt -- though I still think it's perfectly justified, that doesn't excuse me from spending some time in the lab.

Please consider the idea that even if Ivy were perfectly balanced in every matchup (which I still strongly contest), there would still be a huge gap in the effort level and meta-knowledge required by each player; which I would hope would fall under the PMBR's window of legitimate problems. I really have no idea how to fix this - and must guess that it's kinda similar to the reason y'all haven't buffed Jigglypuff; dealing with yet another floaty spacing juggernaut on top of Ivy+Mewtwo would be a balancing nightmare.

 

[EmLeingod]

Can we discuss Ivy's back from ledge options? I tend to get punished hard when I'm at the ledge and I don't see other Ivy's struggle with this at all.

I usually go for Fairs and Nairs (sometimes ledge stalling to mix things up) but if they're standing a safe distance away, I cannot seem to get back safely and reliably. Is wavelanding back from the ledge really important in these situations? Because that's the only thing I really never do.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's an important mixup. You may also want to try ledgehopping backwards, and then wavebouncing onto the stage with a razor leaf to cover your entry. Probably not the best option against someone who can power through the Leaf (like Samus/M2's projectiles, or a Marth fsmash), but it'll cover you pretty well against pretty much anyone else.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Yeah, Ivysaur doesn't have the best options when on ledge. If you can't Fair from ledge then a good option is waveland to d-dilt. But yeah, you should probably learn wavelanding.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Just spent the last 2 hours completely demolishing my roommate's terrible ivy with bowser. No matter how many times I tell him uthrow -> upb is guaranteed, he continues bthrowing me for no reason. :/

matchup practice

 

[TreK]

Can we discuss Ivy's back from ledge options? I tend to get punished hard when I'm at the ledge and I don't see other Ivy's struggle with this at all.

I usually go for Fairs and Nairs (sometimes ledge stalling to mix things up) but if they're standing a safe distance away, I cannot seem to get back safely and reliably. Is wavelanding back from the ledge really important in these situations? Because that's the only thing I really never do.

It's definitely one of Ivy's weaknesses, but you've still got a bunch of options from the ledge. Fair is probably the best one but it's extremely predictable and punichable so you still need to mix it up. It's kind of like playing a rock paper scissors best of 5... if rock gives you 2 points instead of one : you know it's the best option, but you can't just spam it and get away with it.

Ivy's ledge game is aaaall about patience. There's no shame, or disadvantage, in staying on the ledge "way too long". If you're not sure you can get back onstage safely, then don't get back onstage, simple as that. Watch Denti playing, commentators in his region have started calling him CT Ledge because he's really, really comfortable there.

Ivy's pretty good at getting out of juggles thanks to her dair and uair, so I like going for the ledge jumps. That's just me though.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fair isn't really punishable unless you're doing it against someone who's shielding right next to the ledge (or against sonic/fox/mk), in which case nair->land behind->utilt would be a better option anyway.

Otherwise nailed it.

 

[Swann]

Invincible waveland on is very strong. One of the easiest (simple) mixups is to fair until they finally respect fair, then invinc WL on->grab or dtilt.

If there are no platforms above you, WL->vertical seed bomb can be useful. Dissuades grabbing and stuff.

 

[SSS]

1. SoCal has too many Ivysaurs and I hate that I like this character.

2. Is Ken Combo with Ivysaur a thing?

3. Is Uair falling hitbox to utilt a thing?

4. How safe is Ftilt on shield?

5. How much damage/healing/etc. to get a full Solarbeam?

6. How much exactly can you charge Solarbeam when you respawn before invincibility goes away?

 

[Frost | Odds]

1. SoCal has too many Ivysaurs and I hate that I like this character.

2. Is Ken Combo with Ivysaur a thing?

3. Is Uair falling hitbox to utilt a thing?

4. How safe is Ftilt on shield?

5. How much damage/healing/etc. to get a full Solarbeam?

6. How much exactly can you charge Solarbeam when you respawn before invincibility goes away?

1. You should.

2. I think it is, but only with bad DI -- would need confirmation from an Ivy player.

3. Yes.

4. It's not.

5. dunno. might lab

6. I think that's a bad use of invincibility. You should be putting pressure on instead. If you can push the other guy offstage, Ivy has a field day.

 

[L. Ambrosia]

5. How much damage/healing/etc. to get a full Solarbeam?

6. How much exactly can you charge Solarbeam when you respawn before invincibility goes away?

Full solarbeam requires 18% of charge / healing.

Synthesis heals at a rate of 1.5% per second, so it would take 12 seconds of synthesis to fully charge a solar beam.
Up-Smash sweet spot heals / charges 9%.
U-air and D-air sweet spot heal / charge 7%.

Invincibility off platform lasts 2 seconds, which is enough time to charge 3% towards solarbeam.

 

[Nominate10]

So I think I've found a pretty good way to balance tether mechanics and I want to at least put my idea out there.
It may be flawed but I hope it gets noticed and at least seriously considered.

So, as it is, you can't edgehog tethers. But if you are holding onto the ledge, it forces them to do a laggy hop (30 frames in 3.0 iirc).
What if, including the changes being tested for 3.5 (50 frames for the laggy hop, 1 tether limit for zair tethers and a 2 limit for up-b tethers), they also implemented this..
If a character grabs the edge and has invincibility frames while ivy (for instance) tethers, it then forces her to do that laggy hop instantly. But only IF they have invincibility frames.
However, if they're holding the ledge but DON'T have invinc frames, ivy can hang there for a short time like normal, and when she reels in, instead of doing a laggy hop, she 'steals' the ledge. (not sure exactly how they would do this, but it could function similar to how characters like marth will hit you off the ledge and then take it for himself)

Another change to complement this one, would be to add some startup frames to the tether. That way, the hogger can guard it with an anticipated reaction (like guarding any other up-b recovery).

The reason I think this change would be good is because it makes tether recoveries function similarly to normal recoveries in terms of how you guard them. If you grab the ledge at the right time, you can punish them. But if you time it wrong, they can punish you.

Thoughts?

 

[GFooChombey]

So I think I've found a pretty good way to balance tether mechanics and I want to at least put my idea out there.
It may be flawed but I hope it gets noticed and at least seriously considered.

So, as it is, you can't edgehog tethers. But if you are holding onto the ledge, it forces them to do a laggy hop (30 frames in 3.0 iirc).
What if, including the changes being tested for 3.5 (50 frames for the laggy hop, 1 tether limit for zair tethers and a 2 limit for up-b tethers), they also implemented this..
If a character grabs the edge and has invincibility frames while ivy (for instance) tethers, it then forces her to do that laggy hop instantly. But only IF they have invincibility frames.
However, if they're holding the ledge but DON'T have invinc frames, ivy can hang there for a short time like normal, and when she reels in, instead of doing a laggy hop, she 'steals' the ledge. (not sure exactly how they would do this, but it could function similar to how characters like marth will hit you off the ledge and then take it for himself)

Another change to complement this one, would be to add some startup frames to the tether. That way, the hogger can guard it with an anticipated reaction (like guarding any other up-b recovery).

The reason I think this change would be good is because it makes tether recoveries function similarly to normal recoveries in terms of how you guard them. If you grab the ledge at the right time, you can punish them. But if you time it wrong, they can punish you.

Thoughts?

I don't think it needs any more nerf. Since recovering low is practically Ivy's only option, we need some chance in getting back up. Of course we can d air + air dodge, but that's hardly reliable. The mind game for other characters is "will they recover high or should I grab the ledge?" Tether-dependent users will almost always go for the ledge so it becomes a free punish. We need to have a mind game like "When will they pull up?" consistently.

 

[EmLeingod]

My comment on the post in /r/SSBPM :

Preface: Fair warning, I'm running on like 4 hours of sleep and have been awake for over 24 hours straight, so if some of this sounds derpy, sorry.

I do not think this is the way to approach this for special tethers(Completely agree with zair tethers though)...

I understand a ledge hog should basically lead to a kill, and you want to translate that into tethers now, but the problem this creates is tethers really shouldn't make it back on the stage now. Tethers only have the option of recovering from below the ledge, as they always have, and yes tethers are basically a guaranteed ledge sweet spot. However, I do not think this is a worthwhile trade off. This makes special tethers, IMO staight up worse (by a lot) than traditional recoveries.

Imagine if traditional recoveries could ONLY sweet spot the ledge with their up-b. Ledge hogging would be literally impossible to deal with. Traditional recoveries can recover above the ledge, they aren't forced to sweet spot, so that's creates a cool dynamic, stay on the ledge and jump off to prevent a high recovery, or stay on the ledge to make sure they don't try to sweet spot it.

With this, punishing tethers is just going to be extremely easy. I think after this patch we'll hear a lot of "I'd love this character, if they didn't have a special tether recovery"

I really don't see this as a nerf to recoveries, I see it as one to ledge games. Honestly, I think for special tethers, a simple slower reel-in time would suffice. I don't even think anything drastic, I get punished when reeling in by good players a decent amount of time already, and it create a much more interesting ledge game for tether user and foe alike. Do I want to risk dropping the pseudo-ledge hog to try and get the much more rewarding reel-in punish? I am also fine with 2 tethers per air time as well, though I really don't think 3 is unreasonable.

The other way of changing this to make it less one sided would be to give a single jump back if the special tether connects to the ledge like pre-3.0 (but this time, you only get one jump back per air-time, presumably the first tether). Keep everything else, like you guys have it. This would make stalling far more viable as the tether recover without removing the powerful stance of the ledge hoggers. Though I don't know how possible this is with the codeset.

 

[TreK]

I really didn't expect them to go tgat way with tethers.
I expected one of two things : either slower tether pulls (Ivysaur's is ridiculously fast), or forced pull as soon as you press up B. Both of which would have the same effect : allowing the edgeguarding player to react to a tether pull, which is currently not possible.

I don't really know how much I like their change. I'll have to see it in practice.

 

[DirtyRoach]

How does Ivysaur deal with Flaco lasers? I was practicing against one yesterday and every time I got hit by one laser, it lead into a combo that generally killed me/almost killed me. Need help D: