Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Ralph Cecil]

I haven't really done much research outside of watching videos until recently and even then that's not much lmao. That's just my bad. I'll definitely have to look into it though, because I could see a lot coming out of it.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Hi guys I'm a newer player. My question is can you l-cancel a nair when hitting someone with it at the same time as hitting the ground? Because I can never seem to l-cancel the nair at that time, unless the timing is just a lot harder than normal.

 

[GunBlaze]

unless the timing is just a lot harder than normal.

Exactly this

 

[Kyle Strand]

I have also noticed that when I land from a short hop nair, the move ends before I land so there was no need to l-cancel. Granted you have to start the move right away.

 

[TreK]

@ GunBlaze the link in your sig doesn't seem to work :C


@ WhinoTheRhino : You shouldn't try to L-cancel right when you land, but a little bit before you land instead. Ever played Brawl ? It's pretty much the same timing as teching in Brawl, so that should help a lot.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Thanks guys. And @ TreK yeah I can l-cancel all my aerials under regular circumstances, but I find it a lot more difficult to get the timing right when l-cancelling as I'm hitting someone with nair. I did phrase that question kinda weirdly, but GunBlaze answered my question so it's all good. You guys have any advice to get the timing down better when l-cancelling while hitting someone with nair? Or is it just practise I need?

 

[Swann]

Just grind out practice in the lab. Put in the work--it's especially worth it considering how amazing nair is.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Will do. Thanks!

 

[TreK]

Hey guys, I just found a new Ivy trick. Took me a couple minutes to get it right and a couple matches to get a kill off of it, but I believe it can be a fun tool to have.

So the thing is, during our upB, we can grab the ledge backwards, even if it hits. The trick is to drop from the ledge, hold up and back and B. It will allow you to do a reverse high five from the ledge, and catch the ledge right as the hitbox disappears.

I'm still experimemting with it obviously, but I believe it could find its uses against characters which can recover high : you being on the ledge will make them do just that, and then they'll die at 40% to a tipper upB. Even if you miss, the lag is so low that you can probably punish their recovery anyways.

Side note, I play with tap jump on. You might have to toss an extra jump in the input in order to get it to work.
If you tether the ledge, you were too slow. If you get to your freefall animation (and thus, die), you were too quick. It takes a bit of practice.

Have fun with it !

Edit : you can also do it on stages with slanted walls, from places where the normal upB tether wouldn't work to begin with

 

[Swann]

You can do the same thing with solarbeam. The timing is the same

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What kind of character is ivy? What's the strengths and weaknesses of it?

 

[EmLeingod]

Good range, good at gimping with her back air, great combo game, great throw follow up options(into down-b, up-b, back-air). Terrible neutral game other than a very slow to come out razor leaf.

 

[TreK]

Terrible ftilt.

More seriously :

Pros :
-Good range
-Long recovery that can't fail to sweetspot
-One of the best edgeguarders in the game
-Good killing power
-Great tech rolls
-Great in teams
-Heals (can force opponents without projectile to stop camping)
-Decent combos (uthrow chaingrabs on spacies, nair into anything you want it to lead to, uthrow and dthrow mixup to set up a tipper upB kill, ...)
-Good on most stages (weaknesses : Randall, and slopes)

Cons :
-No good oos (grab is 14 frames, nair is 9 frames and has very little range, usmash is 13 frames, wavedash jab is 17 frames, shield drop jab is 9 frames)
-Struggles to get back from the ledge
-Weak to crouch cancelling due to the high amount of weak multihit moves
-Bad running speed -> gets outcamped by good dash dancers and has a slightly harder time tech chasing than most
-Slow startup on a lot of moves -> gets outcamped by most projectile users
-Bad aerial speed -> gets juggled easily
-Midweight floatie -> gets chaingrabbed and comboed harder than Puff.
-Most of her bad matchups are Melee top tiers, which means, you're more likely to encounter her bad matchups.
-Her recovery doesn't hit
-Her only safe-ish aerial (nair) is the one with the least range
-VERY stupid tether (low hitbox + long startup + the better half of it can only grab grounded opponents)

So basically, she's a slow, defensive character without a shield or a spammable projectile. Have fun with it :V

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur has a bunch of really good individual moves, but she has a very difficult time being unpredictable.

 

[MistFist]

ivys dair and uair are so good... dair spikes while uair COULD set up for and upB... or down B too. on top of that, it charges solarbeam as well. but here is my question: how come his bair is sooo crappy!? it can be crouched cancelled so easily... yeah is a good spacing move but thats only if you land it right.... could fair also be a good spacing move instead of his bair?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

B-Air is arguably Ivysaur's best move. Being CC-able isn't so bad when the range is so large.

That said, I, myself, use F-Air more than B-Air for general spacing.

 

[MistFist]

B-Air is arguably Ivysaur's best move. Being CC-able isn't so bad when the range is so large.

That said, I, myself, use F-Air more than B-Air for general spacing.

thanks so much it is good for range but the crouch cancel part kinda made me wonder... ill develop my spacing now with fair thanks so much

 

[EmLeingod]

That said, I, myself, use F-Air more than B-Air for general spacing.

Mind sharing your reasoning behind this? I swear I get shield grabbed every time I try this in neutral.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Because it's huge and actually sets up for stuff. Fullhop it more.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

What are some options Ivysaur has out of a grab? At high percents back throw is probably best to send opponents off stage, but at low percents what should throws should I use that have good followups?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

With very few exceptions, U-Throw/D-Throw is best. DI is 50/50 between the two, but you get all sorts of stuff if they choose poorly, including Up-B.

 

[Nominate10]

With very few exceptions, U-Throw/D-Throw is best. DI is 50/50 between the two, but you get all sorts of stuff off of it, including Up-B.

I also find that uair is a solid followup if you dthrow and they don't go high enough for the up b (but stay near you), and usually you can chain together multiple and then into other moves (including up b). If you dthrow and they DI away, chasing with fair usually works well.
These are only if you wont be able to land the up b of course.

 

[TreK]

You know that reverse upB thing I talked about last week ?
Turns out, if the opponent takes the ledge during this, it puts you in normal fall, with your double jump, all your upBs and max power dair. Instead of killing you, yes.

I'm thinking of ways to implement this in doubles.

 

[Swann]

...what.


Also yeah fair is amazing. FH fair wrecks. Hit confirms and everything.

 

[TreK]

What are the conditions for a movr to jab reset ? Does it depend on %age, weight class of the opponent, DI or any other outside factor ?

I think the first hit of bair is a jab reset but I can't be sure.

 

[Nominate10]

It depends on knockback. I'm not sure if percent affects it but I don't think it does.
Ivy can jab reset with jab, uair (the falling hitbox, not the bulb), and the first hit of bair (maybe the first couple. not sure. first hit should do you just fine though) to my knowledge.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It depends on knockback. I'm not sure if percent affects it but I don't think it does./quote]

Considering that for most attacks, higher percent means greater knockback, percent would most certainly affect it.

U-Air and B-Air1 can reset, though, as you said. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure about any other Ivysaur move.

 

[TreK]

And just in case, there's no such thing as a timing for jab resets in PM, right ? Like, as long as they're lying on the floor and you do the right move, they're forced to get up in place ?
(asking because it's different in brawl)

 

[Nominate10]

And just in case, there's no such thing as a timing for jab resets in PM, right ? Like, as long as they're lying on the floor and you do the right move, they're forced to get up in place ?
(asking because it's different in brawl)

My guess is it has to be in the 'bouncing' animation (so not resting there). I could be wrong, however. Resets are not my expertise.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I feel like i've done resets and have had them done to myself a good time after the bounce, but it may be waaaayyyy more lenient on it in P:M/Melee than Brawl so I can't really say for sure either lol.

 

[MomBomb]

i generally use F-air a lot more than B-air... i think of it as the B-air being in my back pocket, Always there but just conservative with it

 

[TreK]

Bair doesn't really combo into anything, and can be crouch cancelled until very late, so yeah, there's no reason to spam it outside of edgeguarding.

 

[MomBomb]

Bair doesn't really combo into anything, and can be crouch cancelled until very late, so yeah, there's no reason to spam it outside of edgeguarding.

Bair does actually combo at low percents with Nair. If you can read or react quickly to the opponent if they crouch cancel the first hit Ivy is able to Nair before she lands about 3 hits into them after the second Bair hit and if L-canceled its possible to chain a couple up tilts, which lead to Uairs which leads to vine whip

 

[Swann]

^I can confirm, I do this with bair and fair all the time from the ledge. Utilts will not always work, though. You just need to keep in mind if the character you're nairing into has a very fast move (like dsmash for most) that they will try to do out of CC.

 

[WickedWarlock]

Love the discussion here, slight change of topic: I've noticed that sometimes Ivy's tether isn't always consistent as in the length of the vine is sometimes significantly longer than you would expect while other times it seems to vine whip near the edge, if not at, but not activate the tether. I assume there is a spot that "sweetspots" the ledge (at about 45 degrees off?) and gives it that extra length to the recovery. Does anyone know about the frame data on that?

 

[Dng3]

Love the discussion here, slight change of topic: I've noticed that sometimes Ivy's tether isn't always consistent as in the length of the vine is sometimes significantly longer than you would expect while other times it seems to vine whip near the edge, if not at, but not activate the tether. I assume there is a spot that "sweetspots" the ledge (at about 45 degrees off?) and gives it that extra length to the recovery. Does anyone know about the frame data on that?

From what I know, this is simply a technical issue with Vine Whip which causes it to randomly fail. It's occurs more often if an object like randall is hovering around or if the opponent is near the end of the whip when the move is used. It's caused lots of SDs for players and it's basically like tripping, but for special moves.

I really hope they find a fix to this before PM's gold release because it's been plaguing Ivy's competitive game since his debut. So as of now, you can't really practice spacing for it because it's not a spacing issue but rather a fault in programming (not the PMBR's fault).

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

That is very much not true. Vine whip has very specific and explainable reasons for failing when it does.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Distances and angles. Very specific ones cause it to fail in weird places; it's easily avoidable in every case but when Randall strikes.

 

[EmLeingod]

Distances and angles. Very specific ones cause it to fail in weird places; it's easily avoidable in every case but when Randall strikes.

I haven't been able to find out what causes it to fail. Sometimes my vine whip just goes through the ledge and doesn't snap. Is that my fault? How can I avoid it?

 

[Dng3]

Can you guys give some examples of these "specific" angles and distances? Reflex, maybe you could demonstrate this with another tutorial video?

For me, it seems very unpredictable. I would say it has more to do with the placement of targets (opponents, moving objects) near the end of vine whip when its used. In one situation vine whip will work and in another it'll randomly fail, with the exact same spacing. Usually, there's a player or object near Ivy when this occurs.

And with players such as Denti, who is one of the best Ivy players, it doesn't make sense he would SD after so much practice. Current streams from Infinity show various times of Denti SDing when it looked very confident he wouldn't. Aside from that, I just wanted to inform the Wickedwarlock that this occurrence is mainly due to technical issues. There is no logical and competitive reason to have vine whip fail in these specific situations at all.