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Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
you have never played against anyone skillful
you have no basis to determine who is good and who isn't
15 years of casual play does not make you an authority in the competitive community
these are facts
See that`s it right there. The "competitive community". I could give a **** less about your "competitive community". "Casual play" You hide behind your bull**** labels. I don`t have to jerk you or Steve off to have a point, but instead of actual arguments you just evade. Mostly because you could give a **** less about the game, or getting better. What has your "competitive community" done, anyway? Name some stuff that it has given to the game, or the players? You write some articles? TO ****ty tournaments that are focused on Melee/Brawl anyways?
Go on, what is it that the "competitive community" provides?

EDIT: For people who haven`t met me, I tend to swear, doesn`t equal anger, just a colorful vocabulary.
 
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Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
Before I move on, are you still in favor of healing items or have we determined they are unfair? I will proceed to prove the other items unfair as well, but lets take baby steps.

EDIT: For people who haven`t met me, I tend to swear, doesn`t equal anger, just a colorful vocabulary.
pretty sure i have a vocabulary roughly 800 times the size of yours.
Cobr would argue he has a vocabulary 800 times more colorful than yours
 
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Annex

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
761
Location
Columbia Gorge
wut

I think it'd be cool if there were debate threads, where the OP updated all arguments for all sides. You could even have a flowchart or something for counterarguments.
Wait, **** it, I'll just ignore this ****
 

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
Before I move on, are you still in favor of healing items or have we determined they are unfair? I will proceed to prove the other items unfair as well, but lets take baby steps.





Cobr would argue he has a vocabulary 800 times more colorful than yours
Shears, we`ll make an item thread later to discuss. This is too filled with Cobr jerking off in public^(800 times?) as usual. Like lol, how do you know how many words I know? As usual you don`t, just making **** up and pretending tis true, lalalala. Pull your head out of your ass, or the ground or whatever.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
I'm not home so I won't list a bunch, but one of the big ones is travel incentive. The Japanese for instance got the opportunity to come to America as well as play smash, because theycould simultaneously visit NYC, experience a different culture, andcompete against some of the best players in the world. Madrush and Steve have both visited Japan, and the competitive communities were a big determinant and help, I presume. International smasher coming somewhere and needs a couch? We got you. Ask boom, ask Pete, ask madrush, ask Steve, ask isai, ask anyone who has gone anywhere to compete in smash and tell me that isn't giving back to the community.
 

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
I'm not home so I won't list a bunch, but one of the big ones is travel incentive. The Japanese for instance got the opportunity to come to America as well as play smash, because theycould simultaneously visit NYC, experience a different culture, andcompete against some of the best players in the world. Madrush and Steve have both visited Japan, and the competitive communities were a big determinant and help, I presume. International smasher coming somewhere and needs a couch? We got you. Ask boom, ask Pete, ask madrush, ask Steve, ask isai, ask anyone who has gone anywhere to compete in smash and tell me that isn't giving back to the community.
That barely makes sense, but if I understand: offering a couch with 100 words is the same as saying it with 5, it just doesn`t look like a contribution that way, does it? Not at home? Need to consult something to figure out what you`ve contributed, lolwtf?
So yeah, letting people crash is awesome, but doesn`t give you authority on the game or make you a member of the competitive community. Try again.
 
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Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
no, you don't understand. Clearly. Try again. I'm not home, I'm on my phone, so replies take long and it's problematic
 

Herbert Von Karajan

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
1,299
Location
Banned from 64
3: Why is Hyrule banned? (Answers involving playstyle are not valid, nor are time constraints, this is a pure question)
UR NOT VALID

`t```h`i``s ``is``` w`h``y ```y`ou ``a```r```e dumb

here let me spell it out for you:
torunaments are held at venues
venues have a TIME LIMIT
if you dont finish the tournament you get kicked out OR barred from holding future tournaments at that venue
"OH well just split up the prize money and call it a night"
people come from far away to play in tournements to win money (usually to make the cost of the trip there less)
you just made them potentially lose money
now they wont go to that tournament anymore
less GOOD players playing the game in that region
quod erat demonstrandum

Or how about:
Largest gathering of SSB64 players was over 200 people
They all played with 4 stocks, on dreamland only, and no items

Go spend $1000s to get a venue and host a 7 stock, hyrule only tournament, with your item ****, and get more than 200 people to show up, then come talk. I'll give you a year lol


1st Largest smashfest that i know of that was not due to a tournament happening near the same place/time, that really good players like boomfan, koroyoshi, sensei, han solo, etc, showed up to, had 15 people. Guess what rules they played with?

2nd Largest smashfest that I know of that was not due to a tournament happening near the same place/time, that really good players like Jousuke, Moyashi, Kikoushi, Ruoka, etc, showed up to, had about 12 people. Guess what rules they played with?

There is a whole community of about 200 people who are better than you at this game that have all come to the conculsion that items stupid for competitive play. There is a whole community of about 2000 people who came to the same conclusion for melee/brawl/pm.

Chris Mother****ing Studstill, Greatest SSB64 player of all time.
 
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Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
Again, no answers, and carriage before horse logic: The players weren`t coming because of the ruleset.
And I`m not saying make it my way at Apex. I`m saying make it the best way. For the game, for competition. You`re right IDK how these tournaments work. It makes my head hurt to think that 16 or even 24 people can`t play a local tourney on Hyrule in 4 hours. Apex is different, but again, all data available shows an average increase of 1 MINUTE per game, Hyrule vs DL.
Also, thanks for my new signature, although
Chris Mother****ing Studstill can`t get an answer that involves the actual game and not circular, flawed logic.
 

Herbert Von Karajan

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
1,299
Location
Banned from 64
I`ll make it simpler in order to get an actual answer:
1:Why is it that a bat or sword or fan or shell is unfair?
  • A bat spawns on the stage. Which character will get the bat first? (A) The better player? (B) The faster character? or (C) something else?
    • A and B are essentially decided before the match begins. So to get to the fundamental issue, lets assume the players are at equal skill ( you can ignore A ) and that they are playing the same character ( you can ignore B ). Now, since you said items "Makes all chars stronger", the best option for both players is to try get the item. Now in most situations they ***Stop Fighting Each Other***, and now race to get the item. Who gets it? They both have the same max speed... The answer is simple: Whoever is closer to the item.
    • But which player is closer? The items spawn at specific locations; BUT there is more than one spot on each stage, and they spawn at those spots RANDOMLY.
    • Now pretend you are in a real life 1 on 1 fight to the death. EXPLAIN to me how it is fair for the organizer of the fight to flip a coin in the middle of the match and give one player a gun depending on the result of the flip. Then EXPLAIN to me why YOU would rather have the random GUN rule, as opposed to a no weapons rule for a fight like that.

2:What makes me gaining the ability to throw something or hit you with something that isn`t in my character`s basic moveset less competitive, rather than more?
  • Variance.
  • Edit: And it is LESS competitive because there is LESS competition. Because LESS people will agree to play with those rules. Most GOOD players will agree to play Japanese-style over Studstill style competitively, hence there is more Competition in that ruleset, because thats where the best players are competeing. If you really want a competitive match, play it via a no-item ruleset.
3: Why is Hyrule banned? (Answers involving playstyle are not valid, nor are time constraints, this is a pure question)
  • Random tornado`s.
 
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Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
you do not get to determine what answers are satisfactory or valid. Rather, you should make a thread that is the opposite of a case against hyrule - a case for hyrule.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
Items level the playing field. Not a handicap, but an addition to the gameplay that enables lesser players to bridge the skill gap, IF AND ONLY IF, the other opponent allows them. Specifically, it`s no different than everyone having a samus half shot, when holding items. Makes all chars stronger, makes the gameplay more balanced, and increases skill requirements on all levels.
This is a problem, a big problem.

Firstly, claiming it levels the playing field is questionable mostly because if the better player gets everything then the game is going to be more lopsided. If the worse player gets them all then the game is going to be close. That clearly proves that items are winning the game, not the players. Two equal players play with items, the winner is the one with more items, items shouldn't be winning, players should be winning.

Secondly, the game is about competition, not mindless free for alls with no significance. Therefore, a level playing field is a bad thing. That is communism, this is capitalism. It was made in Japan, not China. It allows a lesser player to bridge the "skill" gap, without having anymore skill, just getting lucky. The better player doesn't get to let the person get the items or determine how they can use them so claiming its if and only if the better player allows is wrong. Item acquisition is luck, it is not skill, it is about proximity to the item at the time it falls and the current state of the player. To say "I knew an item was going to fall here so I positioned myself for it" is bull****, you're just getting lucky. Its like going to a roulette table, and saying you knew for a 100% fact it was going to be black so you bet black and won. You didn't know ****, it was chance and it happened to be in your favor. The fallacy of blind confident hope being fact and not luck is a dangerous one.

Thirdly, if it makes everyone equally stronger then it doesn't make the gameplay more balanced, it makes the gameplay the same. If it is constant throughout then it is meaningless to have because it doesn't make a difference. Think of it as saying "if I was a foot taller I'd be better at sports", well that isn't fair because only you are getting taller and no one else, so you would have to make everyone a foot taller and then you would say "if everyone was a foot taller we would all be better at sports", well no because now the foot doesn't matter because everyone is a foot taller and you are just as short as you were before.

Fourthly, there is no proof that it increases skill requirements on all levels. That is a claim you are making, not a fact, and provide no sound evidence for.

Fifthly, everyone having a samus half shot is not better. As I said before, giving characters like DK or jiggly a half shot will help them more than giving samus a half shot, she doesn't need another half shot. Pika with a half shot breaks him. He can already edge guard incredibly well and now he can edgeguard even better. Kirby doesn't have a projectile, now Kirby half shots you off stage forcing you to either jump or fast fall. Fast fall and you're too low, kirby dair and you're dead. Jump and you're recovery is too predictable since you're left upbing too high and getting stuck in fall special to be punished or right at the stage which is asking to die. You have ruined characters that are limited in recovery by giving characters with good recovery, super overpowered projectiles. There is a reason certain characters don't have projectiles, or have weak projectiles, or have projectiles with certain physics, because it gives them advantages that allow them to be balanced in the game the way they are, you add items, and projectile deficient characters are now benefited when projectile equipped characters aren't as much. What does samus get? Nothing that new. What does kirby get? A crutch for his only weakness. DK has his version of a homerun bat, same with falcon, and jiggly. They did this on purpose to balance the characters. Pika was never given any moves with crazy knockback because pika had everything else. Well with items you now gave pika a homerun bat, making up for his only weakness, while DK doesn't get **** and his DK punch is useless. Items take away from character diversity because it takes the characters that are already slightly more advantageous than others and corrects whatever weaknesses they have. But a character like link who doesn't need projectiles but needs recovery doesn't have an item to help him with that, but good old ness can now throw swords all over the place.

Sixthly, I've made the point several times. Items are not constant. The item drop is random, it is not guaranteed, and therefore items more favorable to one character could drop than another, and in a bo3 where there isn't time for statistics to play out and all items to come into play, on person is going to win when they may not of had a different item set appeared. In this same respect, the position of item drops are random, and therefore items could fall closer to one person over another for a set of 3 and give a lesser player the win when they wouldn't normally win had item disbursement been even. If you play 100 item matches between two people, and 100 non item matches between two people, the better player is going to have a similar win % regardless. So therefore, items on the whole do not change who is the better player. But items are volatile, and sets are not best of 100 they are best of 3 and so the better player could lose a game because of being unlucky from items. This is terrible. The better player should always win. If you don't agree with that then you don't believe in competition, and your presence is welcome in the community, but your opinions involving the rulesets cannot be taken seriously because the rulesets here are designed to be conducive to the competitive environment. You want to play online or in friendlies then you can convince people to play for fun with items. But if you don't believe in objective competition and determining truth of skill, talent, and who is better, then you can't create discussions on changing the way competition is played.
 
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Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
Alright! Now we`re rolling! Great points; thanks to both of you. Response pending, actual things to think about now that we`re not telling each other who sucks more.
@Cobr: Yes I do, I asked the question. A case for Hyrule, briefly, full version pending:
It is a stage in the game.
It provides the most variety of landscape, not limiting the players movement to a small area.
The stage hazards (Tornadoes) do not impact play in any detrimental way.
 
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Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
Now look, the accent graves don't make your points invalid or ruin your argument. However, if someone is impatient or short sighted they will not be able to take you seriously because they will see the accent graves and be unable to pay enough attention to everything else you are saying. Whether or not you believe accent graves SHOULD ruin your credibility, to most people here, and most people on the planet, they personally WILL ruin your credibility. Theres a saying:

The first time someone calls you a horse, you call them a jerk.
The second time someone calls you a horse, you punch him in the nose.
But the third time someone calls you a horse, its time you go shopping for a saddle.

Maybe you're right on the accent grave thing, maybe it doesn't matter. But if everyone is telling you it matters, its time you stop being yourself and stubbornly telling people they're wrong and changing society and just stop using accent graves instead. Either you're crazy or the world is crazy.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
disproving indeterminism
I think what has to be realized is the difference between fun and competition. Maybe it would be more fun to run a race with obstacles and hoops to jump through. But in the olympics, where its all about competition, its run on a flat, standardized, oval with nothing but the players and the most basic of stages. The steeplechase and hurdles are the only events with hazards and the hazards never change, they are always constant, in the same spots, and same heights and don't move. A tornado can be anywhere randomly, and it will come out of anywhere at random speeds to scoop you up.
 
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¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
161
items are banned b/c random factors are not good. whoever wins a certain situation near an item drop could be rewarded with a hammer or could be rewarded with a pokeball w/goldeen, or someone could get a star ko and a heart could spawn for them while the opponent is dying. you're not putting any serious thought into situations that could happen with items on if you think they should be legal.

why hyrule is banned: http://smashboards.com/threads/a-case-against-hyrule.340054/
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
Hyrule was only banned for one tournament because the TO wanted it banned.

And that was despite a poll with an overwhelming majority of the community voting to keep hyrule legal.
 

prisonchild

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
604
Location
Training Mode (or Toronto)
so... who is going to the tourney in Toronto june 28th? i'm gonna bring one or two friends along, this would be a competitive tourney debut for one of them.

our goal is to all make the top 5 :D
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
you going to zenith, prisonchild? and bringing people?

also sheer: "one" tourney?

to explain the above post about competitive community and giving to the players and blahblah
What has your "competitive community" done, anyway? Name some stuff that it has given to the game, or the players?...what is it that the "competitive community" provides?
just to clear this up now that i'm home

the travel incentive and hospitality is a big part of the community. people generally don't travel around playing smash unless they're serious about it, or interested in becoming serious.

if i may use madrush as an example - he has gone to brazil and japan, and gone smashing in both places. he was taken around by banze and played in a tourney there. he spent time with japanese smashers and went to a tourney there, as well. while it was perfectly feasible for him to travel to brazil and japan without having played smash, the trip was made much friendlier and easier being around people who aren't strangers. there's a difference between sharing a hostel with strangers and staying on the couch of a smasher whom you've met once, because you're united by a common interest.

steve is in a similar boat. and ****, i don't even need to use international as an example. the first time i hung out with steve, he said we should play at his place, cuz he has beer and can call a bunch of sluts who will suck our *****. i am not making this up. regardless, he let a bunch of us - ten? - crash at his place for a weekend to play smash, on two occasions. we've gone to his place in jersey, and he's come here. generally, if there's a large turnout for a red bank event, i think it's safer for everyone to stop at my place and get some sleep before driving x hours home.

this is something that the competitive community provides for its players - open couches, carpools, places to stay, all that. we stay together for big events like apex and have a good time, and a lot of us wind up having friendships that go beyond smash. i consider myself and jimmyjoe to be pretty good friends, and if NY were closer, i'd be spending more time with tommy and joey. i like hanging out with clubba and solo and i really want to go drink with shears.

realistically, what the **** more - nay, else - could you want out of this community?
 
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prisonchild

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
604
Location
Training Mode (or Toronto)
you going to zenith, prisonchild? and bringing people?
very long shot I go to zenith, even though I'll be in jersey that weekend. i'm going to a 'sports weekend' kinda party with some friends (who don't play smash) so i'll probably just be boozing all day and trying to play random sports.

the tourney I was asking about was 'I got 64 problems but a floac ain't 2', pretty sure it's just a local tourney
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
i know you were talking about that local, had a lot of people last time, was just trying to see if you were down for zenith

tell them smash is an e sport and see if they care
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
i had to google chel and it said "what some people call NHL"

so yeah

hockey and stuff

the types of guys who play chel

canadians
 
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Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
items are banned b/c random factors are not good. whoever wins a certain situation near an item drop could be rewarded with a hammer or could be rewarded with a pokeball w/goldeen, or someone could get a star ko and a heart could spawn for them while the opponent is dying. you're not putting any serious thought into situations that could happen with items on if you think they should be legal.

why hyrule is banned: http://smashboards.com/threads/a-case-against-hyrule.340054/
Man, you are just awesome for writing that thread! I disagree with a bunch, but serious props.
I kinda want to just lift that first paragraph, maybe quote you to anyone who doesn't understand objective v. subjective.
I hope you wouldn't be offended if I use it as a primary counter-argument, since it seems that "everyone" thinks it is the reason there is no mas Hyrule. But to address the above comment:
Thanks for talking about the game/my questions, but I`m not lobbying for all items, and none of the situations you mentioned are possible in the ruleset I described. I would assume that you just casually popped on to the thread and missed that comment, but the "you're not putting any serious thought into situations that could happen with items on if you think they should be legal." assertion kinda rankles me. I'm two months in to "the scene" but you have no secret knowledge. In general, I believe that any subject, especially Smash 64 in all it's glory, should be weighed on the evidence, and opinions judged on their merit; as you said: (roughly) "how else do we know what anything is?"
That being said, I have put somewhere around 20000 hours into this game. Playing. So there is not really anything that I haven't "..put any serious thought into." I'm not asking for you to submit to my opinion's on playtime or skill; I'm merely asking that if someone who clearly thinks seriously about the game as you do is going to argue with my opinion on Smash 64, you could at least give it a response instead of arbitrary, non-applicable hypotheticals or implying I don't know what effect my own rules have on Smash.

Note: It should be assumed that Shears and my personal opinions on the game are our own, and not representative of SuperSmashBros64.com
Also, in order to focus on the game, I will make a conscious effort to use a single quote instead of an accent grave.
 
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Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
807
wut

The stage hazards (Tornadoes) do not impact play in any detrimental way.
wut
Go watch the video from the hyrule post. I view those "tornado kills" in a totally different way. There is some misunderstanding in the OP about what "total randomness" is, but essentially I`m saying:
You`re picking and choosing skills, not for balance of the game, but for balance of the players in real life. That is the error, the judgement criteria for making rules is to adjust the game for maximum strategic play, never to eliminate the opportunity for such strategic (skill based) interactions to take place. I`ll ask Boom what he thinks of it, it was him playing. The commentary is adorable, and well-intentioned I`m sure, but pretty firmly decides what happened, in lieu of reality. I`m saying both those deaths were legit. Perhaps not kills and in a 5 stock match surely affected the outcome, but none the less completely legit. Isai should have never been there. He [had to have] knew that "crazy" tornado was a possibility, and had many other options as Pikachu than not UpBing and landing right next to the tornado. It is made to appear as if Isai was a helpless victim of randomness which is certainly not possible. The game, even with items, is FINITE. There is no true randomness, max item settings only provide a 1/20 or so chance, you should be able to react to these situations.
And I`m not so sure that "crazy" tornado transformation is random.
 
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asianaussie

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,337
Location
Sayonara Memories
im almost ready to call it a successful troll topic

20000 hours and you still dont see why the best players in the world have a problem with items and hyrule
 
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