Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[caneut]

items are dumb so we dont play them, but their fun so i play thems ometimes with friends,

nubstill

 

[asianaussie]

@KeroKeroppi you're the best player in the world, what is your opinion on items and hyrule

 

[Shears]

There are millions of reasons why things should and shouldn't be. I think the one that is most important is changes to probability and volatility. If player A and player B use the same characters and play 100 matches on DL with player As win percentage being X, I will submit the idea that if they played 100 matches on Hyrule then player As win percentage will be roughly X because the "interference" of the tornado will even out and it will still come down to player skill. So the probability doesn't change, win % is X. Why not allow Hyrule? Because of volatility. Hyrule (tornado) changes and has randomness that can cause swings in outcomes in any given game but throughout 100, averages out and doesn't change probability a whole lot. Unfortunately sets are bo3 and players can not play 100 to determine who is better, so they need to play stages that don't effect probability and are not volatile. Volatility changes outcomes in individual instances not over the course of infinity. We are stuck playing in individual instances and so outcomes shouldn't be determined by a stages randomness.

As far as how the game is finite and there's a 1/20 chance or something with items, that doesn't mean it's acceptable. That is clear randomness thats unavoidable. A coin flip is 1/2 so it's not scary because they're small numbers. It's still random, it is chance that can't feasibly be calculated beforehand and if the chance is holding whether you live or die, it's not a chance you should have to take if you can avoid it by turning off items and going to DL. Imagine you could prove your greatness by running an obstacle course, or you could prove your greatness by running an obstacle course with periodic coin flips in between where winning a flip advances you a checkpoint and losing sends you back. Which one is more fair? Just get better at coin flips then, have more coin flip skill. No it doesn't work like that. You could have faster times on each leg of the obstacle course but lose because you had to run more legs due to coin flips. That's what happens with items and that's what happens with stage hazards. Someone gets 3 hearts you have to do more damage per stock faster and take less damage but thanks to the hearts you still lose because you had more stocks you had to take.

 

[Sedda]

People speaking for the "best players in the world" is troubling. Links?

Sorry studstill, but nobody has to quote anybody. The fact that the competitive community has come up with this ruleset and nobody complains too much about it should tell you about the consensus. However, I think Boom posted on that Hyrule thread and shared his feelings against it. He's been against the stage competitively for years apparently, and there were also polls made on here for players to vote on whether they wanted Hyrule banned or not.

Earlier last year, most people wanted Hyrule legal still. fast forward a few months, M2K enters a few tournaments and exploits one strategy on Hyrule, and then players in NA started to turn against that stage slowly. Don't get me wrong, though. There are still players who want Hyrule legal. Sheer, Han Solo, A$ (COME BACK PLZ), Star King?? (idk if he's been clear about that), Isai. Hell, I ****ing adore Hyrule and would rather play on there than any other stage no matter what, but this is a community where the majority should decide on things like this. Regardless of whether Dictatordude implements them first or not, the majority has agreed that the change is for the best. You have to consider time constraints and fair play. The fact that M2K, a largely inexperienced 64 player in NA, was able to exploit ONE single strategy for Hyrule and win against many experienced players is definitely going to change people's opinions on the stage. Add that to the camping factor of that stage (Don't mind it, but I understand the frustration) and the random nadoes (dont mind it either myself) and you definitely have a case against Hyrule WITHIN A TOURNAMENT SETTING. M2K is amazing. Definitely the best Smash player of all time, and good on him for pushing the boundaries of our ruleset and beating us at our own game.

As far as items are concerned, I don't know why people are arguing this against you. I'll repeat what I said before, but the fact that nobody complains about no items in tournament should give you an idea as to what the consensus is on this issue without having to quote any "top players." If there's ever a big tourney with items on, I'll go, but items are randomly generated on random parts of the stage. It's as simple as that. I don't know why everyone is giving you these crazy breakdowns as to why they're illegal. It's very obvious.

 

[The Star King]

Star King?? (idk if he's been clear about that)

I don't think I want Hyrule legal in tournament, though I don't feel very strongly either way. I just wish people played it more in friendlies and stuff.

 

[SheerMadness]

As far as I know there has not been an officially accepted community wide rule set for ssb64.

Nintendude wanted Hyrule banned for Apex so he banned it. There really hasn't been much discussion about it since.

If I were to host a tourney I'd have Hyrule as a counterpick. Unless a majority of the participants wanted it banned.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Nintendude wanted Hyrule banned for Apex so he banned it.

"It was a collective decision between chain ace, sensei, and myself."

perhaps with sensei's apparent absence from the community, this could be revisited. chain ace has recently reinstated hyrule to red bank events and removed peach's again.

 

[Sedda]

Sheer, I want Hyrule back too, but Nintendude didn't ban it out of nowhere. There was a poll last year where most people wanted Hyrule legal, and later there was either another poll (or might've been the Bane thread against hyrule) where most people were against Hyrule after the whole M2K thing. I remember it because Han Solo was crying about Fox during every single discussion about Hyrule.

If you made a poll today (Maybe you should) I think most people who at least frequent smashboards would want Hyrule banned.

I'm not salty about these anymore, but nobody tried Link against M2K on Hyrule. Suddenly the counterpick rules weren't good enough to counter the left side camp. This reminds me of Melee M2K's Marth on FD. That **** has created long discussions about stage striking and stuff, but the fact of the matter is that you just have to come up with your own strategy to counter the other person's instead of trying to change the ruleset to diminish their strategy. Now we see PP counterpicking M2K to FD to play Marth dittors and he wins. Why couldn't we see that in our game? Nobody even tried.

After that, it suddenly became IMPOSSIBLE to camp on DL when people were arguing against Hyrule. Then Firo vs Wizzy happened on DL. Plus we all know that M2K's sets on DL took a long time too, and I know I'm bringing M2K into this a lot, but many players used him as an excuse. He still pwnd most of them on DL. There were a lot of things that weren't considered then, but most people on here still want Hyrule banned (I think).

 

[The Star King]

and later there was either another poll (or might've been the Bane thread against hyrule) where most people were against Hyrule after the whole M2K thing.

Don't think this ever happened.

Then Firo vs Wizzy happened on DL.

Infamous Firo vs Wizzy stallfest happened on Congo.

 

[Cobrevolution]

it was 12 minutes on dreamland then another 13 or w/e on congo

to give examples that aren't m2k related, on hyrule

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a899okNYfME - gerson vs isai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmBGoRRMYQk - kefit vs sensei (FORTY MINUTES LIKE COME ON)

 

[rjgbadger]

That being said, I have put somewhere around 20000 hours into this game. Playing. So there is not really anything that I haven't "..put any serious thought into."

I'm gonna have to re-remind you that hours played does not directly relate to knowledge about the depth of the game. Think about it, you could own all the Pokemon games, put 1000's of hours into each one, catching Pokemon, exploring, battling, trading, etc. You can even beat all the in-game challenges with ease, and none of your friends can seem to even lay a finger on you in a battle. You would think you know a lot about the game because of this, and you're pretty good at the game right? Nope, because the second a real competitive battler comes into the fray, he's going to literally dismantle you. Like, you'd have no chance in 1000 battles to beat a tourneyfag Pokemon player(unless some SERIOUS RNG happens all in your favor, or he feels bad and lets you win). The tourneyfag has learned and experienced a level of depth that you didn't even know existed, despite hundreds and hundreds of hours amongst years of playing the game. Exact base stats and damage calculations, chances that effects happen, weather effects, team chemistry, HAXing, etc.

This is the same thing with you and SSB. You could play the game for an infinite amount of time, learning what all the moves do, where they send you at what %, what are good kill moves/ranged attacks, etc. You can have all the movesets 100% memorized. Maybe you can even beat all your friends and no one you've come into contact with can lay a finger on you because you 'know so much.' But same thing happens here, once the tourneyfags enter the fray, most/all of your knowledge goes out the window. These pros are pivoting, they're shield dropping, Z cancelling all of their aerials with ease (Techniques you may not even know existed until you meet these people). These players can even kill you off a single hit, can and literally do dismantle you(Boom what, like 59-60 stocked you in a 12 character?) These players are performing things you didn't even know existed for 15 years, they obviously know more about the game than you. Unless you M2K'd your way through the game(which you obviously didn't) there's a certain depth to the experience they have, and its a lot deeper than your 20k casual hours played will ever be.


When you look at base facts about items:

1. They spawn at random times.
2. The item spawned is random (1/20 or w/e like you said).
3. The location spawned is random.
4. Pokemon spawned are random.(you could get a snorlax, charizard, goldeen, all at a moment's notice)

Those 4 things alone should make it a no-brainer that items are not a good source of skill determination. Thank you.

 

[Vale]

I support items in Brawl, but that's because item play evolved enough throughout the games to make it a completely separate skillset that is in essence independent of luck. With item control options, the effects of each item is limited and players are able to properly adjust their game to avoid basically everything on the "approved" items list.

However, we don't have that in 64. Mechanics like glide tossing don't exist (that I know of, at least?) and you're only able to disable exploding capsules in Brawl. Either way, I'd definitely be willing to help create a "casual-competitive" item set. Obviously ban hearts, starman, etc., but leave the rest up to discussion.

 

[mixa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmBGoRRMYQk - kefit vs sensei (FORTY MINUTES LIKE COME ON)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NV6mkQe4pQ&t=13m50s

“They're gonna wait until the tornado is done because tornadoes are bad.”

— VALOEM, Jerry. 2012​

truly a classic moment in time

 

[Studstill]

the fact of the matter is that you just have to come up with your own strategy to counter the other person's instead of trying to change the ruleset to diminish their strategy. Now we see PP counterpicking M2K to FD to play Marth dittors and he wins. Why couldn't we see that in our game? Nobody even tried.

Exactly.

I'm gonna have to re-remind you that hours played does not directly relate to knowledge about the depth of the game. Exact base stats and damage calculations, chances that effects happen, weather effects, team chemistry, HAXing, etc.

This is the same thing with you and SSB. You could play the game for an infinite amount of time, learning what all the moves do, where they send you at what %, what are good kill moves/ranged attacks, etc. You can have all the movesets 100% memorized. Maybe you can even beat all your friends and no one you've come into contact with can lay a finger on you because you 'know so much.' But same thing happens here, once the tourney**** enter the fray, most/all of your knowledge goes out the window. These pros are pivoting, they're shield dropping, Z cancelling all of their aerials with ease (Techniques you may not even know existed until you meet these people). These players can even kill you off a single hit, can and literally do dismantle you(Boom what, like 59-60 stocked you in a 12 character?) These players are performing things you didn't even know existed for 15 years, they obviously know more about the game than you. Unless you M2K'd your way through the game(which you obviously didn't) there's a certain depth to the experience they have, and its a lot deeper than your 20k casual hours played will ever be.


When you look at base facts about items:

1. They spawn at random times.
2. The item spawned is random (1/20 or w/e like you said).
3. The location spawned is random.
4. Pokemon spawned are random.(you could get a snorlax, charizard, goldeen, all at a moment's notice)

Those 4 things alone should make it a no-brainer that items are not a good source of skill determination. Thank you.

This is ludicrous. Yes I lost to Boom. You are one of the worst people around here for just pretending that you know me, or my knowledge, the "casual" labels, the faux-elitism. You have no secret knowledge, bro. Just because you made up "lingo" for the game, doesn`t mean you have a higher level understanding. This isn`t a secret club you have to be a member in to have knowledge about the game. Honestly, you use generalized words and I always feel like saying **** you to some of those sentences in there. Just another "You suck, I can`t explain why, but let me use a bunch of words to tell you you don`t know what I know" when I ****ing do. "Pivoting." You mean running one way and then turning around? **** man I was doing that day one, without you or anyone else. So were a lot of other people. But to address the little bit of actual game stuff in your post:
(Not how I don`t say "base facts" and then state **** I just make up, which you appear to do. Put some thought into it or be quiet, again, I`d be less rude about it but you decide I don`t know what I`m talking about so I figure I`m within rights to point out that your "base facts" are gibberish.)
1. No. They don't. They spawn at exactly paced times, depending on setting. I prefer "middle".
2. No. It isn't, not quite. There is about a 30% chance of box/barrel/bottle, and I play with 10 items, so 1/10 inside or 7% in general, per item. "Random" is deceiving in this context, there is no reason you cannot adjust your play for unknowns, and no reason why this shouldn`t be considered skill. We do this same thing all the time in Smash, regardless of item settings. [Source: Sakurai 1999]
3. Yes. This is random. As it should be. Otherwise you can actually "camp" on the theoretical spawn point, whereas with random spawn you must adjust your strategy to cover the most of the board, in order to improve item retrieval chances. Again, a skill, just one you have chosen to ignore in order to make the game simpler/easier/more predictable.
4. AGAIN, it is for this reason that I DO NOT ENDORSE POKEBALLS. PLEASE STOP REFUTING MY ARGUMENT WITH POKEBALLS, IT IS IRRELEVANT. Bold and caps, will that get seen?

On the Hyrule, I don`t know how you people do things. I`m planning on having a few questions regarding rulesets on the more information gathering registration form when the site goes fully live, but until then, maybe a poll is in order. I would say vote on each stage, and each item, perhaps after thorough discussion to get the facts out.

 

[Shears]

Even M2K didn't M2K his way into 64 like people think. He had played the game before smashacre (which is the one that started it all) and he already had an advanced understanding of the mind game portion from being a top player in melee and brawl. He chose kirby because of simplicity and power without much knowledge of the games technical specs. I was like the first person to play him at smashacre in friendlies and he spent the first two games that he rage quit learning kirbys spacing and technical data right then and there. He evolved into a great player very quickly because he was a pro. Normal noobs can't do that because they don't know what to look for. They don't see the game naturally in its competitive form and they don't fully perceive the mental chess game that it is. M2K could, so can Isai, Boom, and other top players. Its what makes their hours more significant than anyone elses hours played. Not to make you feel like you wasted your time, but 20k hours doesn't necessarily hold weight. I've probably played the game the least amount of hours of any of the frequent posters here so in theory my opinions should be the most worthless, but I would disagree. I don't think you can judge someone on their hours played or on how long they've been playing the game, instead on how they perceive the game and how they understand competition. M2K is certainly newer than most, but his clear understanding of smash and competitive play gives him credibility. I've never seen someone clueless about objective competition be very good at the game, therefore, its safe to assume that if someone is very good at the game then they know what they are talking about when it comes to objective competition and its adopted rulesets.

 

[rjgbadger]

It doesn't matter the lingo you use, those are just terms used by the majority of us players from SWF. Whether you call it pivot or dash turns, teching or breakfalls, z cancel or safe landings, ETC. The fact of the matter is you did not know about these techniques at a high level until you saw competitive people using them. Countless hours of play and you can't perform pivot tilts on command, shield drop aerial, you have bad/no DI, hardly ever/don't Z cancel, and you have habits only what are considered n00b tactics (predictable dsmash on platforms, very predictable offensive upB's amongst a myriad of other things). Its not pretending to know you or pretending to act like what you know, its incredibly evident in your gameplay what you do and do not know.

It isn't 'secret knowledge' or faux elitism, its blatant facts that you do not use these techniques like seasoned players do. Its blatant fact that you lose to pretty much every veteran of this game and this community. So, if you plan on becoming very good and ever beating them, it should be evident to you that your skillset and decisions often do not work, and they need serious adjustments. Perhaps even adjustments towards what the pros tend to use and win matches? Or do you not want to that, and would rather get whooped by good players for eternity? Again your 20k hours mean nothing if you don't practice all the right things. I can spend 100 hours spamming B with fox on the ground in Training mode, does that make me skilled and knowledgeable? Not even in the slightest.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Yes I lost to Boom.

Boom 59-Stocks you in a 12 character battle because you spent 20,000 hours playing with items on hyrule and he spent 20,000 hours playing without items on dreamland.


You should address this:

Now pretend you are in a real life 1 on 1 fight to the death. EXPLAIN to me how it is fair for the organizer of the fight to flip a coin in the middle of the match and give one player a gun depending on the result of the flip. Then EXPLAIN to me why YOU would rather fight to the death with random GUN rule, as opposed to without.

Do me a favor and list the items you don't want to be allowed with a short explanation why they are bad, and why that explanation does not apply to items in general lol

 

[Skrlx]

IDK, guys, MEGA FFA is pretty fun.

 

[Fireblaster]

Studstill, I respect all the work you have done on the website and everything else but you are wrong on so many levels and the amount of assumptions and fallacies you've made are through the roof. I don't think I can physically sit here and respond to everything so I'll just address everything that's off the top of my head for now.

The thousands of hours that you have put into this game does not make you an authority on this game in any way. Having a low amount of hours doesn't mean someone's opinion does not matter. Someone having a lot of hours doesn't mean their opinion is worth more. Same applies to however early or late someone started playing the game.

RNG should be removed as much as possible from a fighting game. We're not playing poker or DOTA 2 where RNG is built into the game and is a core part. Nobody wins a chess match by having a random queen spawn on their side of the board nor do they win at street fighter by having their character randomly throw a bomb at the opponent that takes away all their health. Items do not add depth to the game. A star rod drops next to player A? They get a different ftilt and jab, gain a projectile, and lose the ability to grab. That player did not earn the star rod, it just dropped next to him. He even has the option to pick it up and throw it far off the stage so nobody gets to use it. Or he could pick it up and throw it as a damaging projectile that can possibly kill. The only thing that will happen upon a player picking up a star rod is that the opponent (player B) will play very defensively and start to camp until his opponent approaches, gets rid of the star rod, or throws the star rod so that player B doesn't get hit by it. There's a lot that can be argued against items but the majority of it comes down to: Basically every item randomly gives the player that it spawned next to an optional damaging projectile.

Items and other RNG aspects add variance. Competitive games by nature will have variance and variance generally adds excitement and hype to tournament matches as it is not always 100% who wins. Too much variance is bad however, and items cause this. It is not fair that one player has a laser gun spawn next to him and it allows him to get an easy zero to death all the way to the edge of the stage into a spike or kill move. It doesn't matter how much you memorize at what rate items spawn and their specific locations. Items that spawn always spawn at random locations and the item that spawns is random. Nobody wants to enter a tournament where players randomly get advantages during the fights. This also applies to stages. Mario is at 100% but he's comboing fox to death on hyrule with a bunch of uairs and finishes it with a killing up smash. But what's this? A tornado spawns like 4 frames after mario upsmashes. Mario's upsmash is really laggy so he's unable to move away and the tornado picks mario up and kills mario. Fox did NOTHING to earn that killing blow. This is the kind of variance that's bad. Players shouldn't get RANDOM advantages like this in a fighting game.

Hyrule and several other stages aren't just banned because of RNG. Stages like yoshi's story and zebes very little to no RNG in them and they're still banned. Why? Because they break the game when played at a competitive level. On the banned stages, there's two things:

1)certain characters get game breaking advantages
Fox on Sector Z vs Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong cannot combo fox very well on a big flat stage like that with no platforms so he has to resort to pokes, tech chases, and super hard reads in a matchup that's already ridiculously in fox's favor. But what sends this matchup over the edge is that fox can simply choose to run away and laser DK all he wants. DK has to either sit there and eventually take massive damage to the point where one hit from fox can kill, or he can get into an even bigger disadvantage by chasing after fox and trying to catch him on the biggest stage in the game. No matter whether fox is losing or winning, he can just run away and pelt DK with lasers quite easily. The only chance DK has to win is to basically corner fox on one side of the stage and do several hard reads in a row to be able to get the kill right there on the spot. This is not going to happen unless the DK player is a million miles better than the fox player. Basically like boomfan vs newb player.

There are many examples like these and several of them exist on all of the banned stages.

2)the stage has a metagame that is very unfit for competition
Pikachu vs Donkey Kong. Let's assume the DK player is just better (not by that whole lot, just noticeably better) than the pikachu player, so the DK player will win the fight almost every time he gets close to pikachu. Pikachu counterpicks to yoshi's story. Pikachu, knowing that it is very unlikely he will win a close encounter with the DK, immediately flies off to the cloud on the far right of the stage. This is a very safe spot for pikachu since due to his crazy recovery he can at any time go to the top cloud or directly back to the stage. The far right cloud is very dangerous for DK though. If he wants to chase after pikachu, he would have to use his double jump and maybe his up B to get to that far right cloud. He'd be approaching pikachu with a tremendous disadvantage which could give pikachu the chance to kill DK quite easily. We end up with a scenario where DK does not want to leave the main stage to approach pikachu because it is extremely bad for him. Pikachu also does not want to go to the main stage because he knows that it's less advantageous for him to fight there than on the cloud he's standing on. Since no player can force the other to approach, you essentially have a stalemate that makes the match go on forever until someone gets bored enough to leave their spot. Competitive games should not be decided on who gets bored first nor who doesn't feel like waiting an hour for a game to finish. This is 200% unacceptable for tournaments. Hell, for many people, this is just unacceptable in any scenario. Nobody wants to play a 1 hour long stare down to see who loses first in a smash bros match.

 

[Skrlx]

Mario is at 100% but he's comboing fox to death on hyrule with a bunch of uairs and finishes it with a killing up smash. But what's this? A tornado spawns like 4 frames after mario upsmashes. Mario's upsmash is really laggy so he's unable to move away and the tornado picks mario up and kills mario. Fox did NOTHING to earn that killing blow. This is the kind of variance that's bad. Players shouldn't get RANDOM advantages like this in a fighting game.

I can see a similar situation in Dream Land. Jigglypuff gets a rest kill near the ledge on the left side of Dream Land, and as Jigglypuff is in its rest animation, Whispy Woods begins to blow and knocks Jigglypuff off the stage. There's no real point to this (since I pretty much agree with what you've said), but I just wanted to point it out for the lulz.

 

[Annex]

Don't forget Congo's charity barrel. Probably the biggest stage interference past Z.

 

[Studstill]

To be clear, again:
I only brought up my playtime in because I felt there was too much "Stoopid noob you didn`t think at all" going on. Read my response to Bane, I said almost exactly what you said, i.e. opinions should be judged on merit, not on who vocalizes them.
I didn`t see you point out any "assumptions or fallacies", because there were none. If you wan to disagree, please do so without false stating my argument is logically flawed, or at least point out said flaws.
To wit:
"1)certain characters get game breaking advantages
Fox on Sector Z vs Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong cannot combo fox very well on a big flat stage like that with no platforms so he has to resort to pokes, tech chases, and super hard reads in a matchup that's already ridiculously in fox's favor. But what sends this matchup over the edge is that fox can simply choose to run away and laser DK all he wants. DK has to either sit there and eventually take massive damage to the point where one hit from fox can kill, or he can get into an even bigger disadvantage by chasing after fox and trying to catch him on the biggest stage in the game. No matter whether fox is losing or winning, he can just run away and pelt DK with lasers quite easily. The only chance DK has to win is to basically corner fox on one side of the stage and do several hard reads in a row to be able to get the kill right there on the spot. This is not going to happen unless the DK player is a million miles better than the fox player. Basically like boomfan vs newb player."
That is totally anecdotal and arbitrary. You peopel have decided that "combos" are the only way to play the game. This is false. Smash Bros 64 does not exist solely on combos. The "fights" in this game are a series of interactions between opponents in 2D space, with one of the most controllable movement systems in existence. True skill in this game lies not in "tech" or in "combos" but in winning the interaction that can lead to the combo, i.e hitting your opponent without getting hit, enabling you to continue the combo. Again, maybe some of this is over your head, despite your vast knowledge of the game, the way many of you think of it is warped, obsessed with combos. To wit, I`m sure Boom could win a match without comboing AT ALL. In fact, we were chatting the other day about what I call a "theoretical combo", and wht he calls an "extended combo", i.e . even if your opponent recovers, assuming that there is not much of a pause in the fight, if you strike him without beign hit the combo is still live. This speaks to the fundamental nature of the game, with its functionally infinite HP, that you must literally kill your opponent; can not just beat them to death. If anything, I would say the biggest difference between my approach to the game and yours is:
You: Move-centric, match-up centric, stage centric. All about what char vs. what, on where, and focused on "technique".
Me: Player centric, movement centric. Period. There is no matchup, no stage, no move that cannot be defeated. There is no priority: Get any hitbox into a hurtbox and success!
The fundamental skill in this game, the true form of smash, is knowing where your opponent`s hurtbox will be, and putting a hitbox there. To this end, I believe DL is great for practice, but the size cramps some characters (or all) and shouldn`t be used for serious competition. Hyrule and Sector Z are the only boards that provide adequate space to prepare for encounters. To use metaphor as seems popular: This is not a boxing ring, not a fencing duel, not a chess game. This is two characters thrust into an arena with only one of them surviving.
The second biggest difference is that I FLAT OUT REFUSE to determine a ruleset based on stopping a playstyle. The burden is NOT on your opponent to allow you to attack. The burden is on you to attack them.
Perhaps it`s a different way of thinking, and even about the game, but I simply cannot respond to a loss with any other excuse than that person beat me. Not to ban a stage, or whatever. If you guys want this apparently degraded version of the game, fine. I`d say go play melee. Again, try it out, if you think I`m so silly. I`ll be making some videos later, of myself and another player with my rules, and we`ll see how high level the play is or not. Perhaps, actual evidence is needed, the only objections left are about "NO RNG" and I disagree that variance is bad. I had this debate over the years in Smash, we referred to it as the "True Form" argument: That the game is flawless, and should only be modified if absolutely clear that any modification would have zero effect on skill based decisions, and increase the number of those decisions, i.e. more decisions, more opportunities for skill to be a factor.
And the "Purity" Argument: That the game should be played with no items, on DL only, in order to have the most completely barebones arena to fight in.
There is no argument at all in the "I don`t like the way M2K" plays. That`s insane to use as a rationale for anything, and I think this whole "he came and beat everyone" thing is disgusting. Did he really beat "everyone"? Id he the undisputed best SSB64 palyer of all time? Then stop acting like it and figure out how to beat him. I will. Kero will.

And further, hipstur: I didn`t spend a 100 hours spamming B with Fox. If you want to keep doing this:
I`m far better than you at the game. Why don`t you quit dodging me and Smash. Also, wtf don`t you understand about me? I took two, more like 3-4 years off the game. That doesn`t mean I can`t play, but literally my hand muscles are building back up. No game has ever required the dexterity I put into smash. But yeah, I`ll beat the crap out of your Fox, then do I get to tell you how it is?
I knew about Z cancelling, just didn`t know it applied in all situations, learn time: 20 seconds.
Pivoting is self-aggrandizing circle jerk stuff, literally a day one skill. I did this.
HOW THE **** CAN YOU POSSIBLY THINK THAT NO ONE OUTSIDE THE "COMMUNITY" KNOWS ABOUT BREAKFALLS?
I wouldn`t DI unless extremely challenged in a serious Tournament, for controller preservation, that is different than not knowing how.
You know what, your whole response is just bull****. In lieu of arguing, and since you have no actual argument other than I KNOW YOU DON`T, Let`s have a trial by combat?
I`m free anytime.

 

[Cobrevolution]

priority exists. Don't try to twist game data around. Clank bubbles are evidence of this. Sangoku, what is it, 8 percent or something both ways? Further, to simplify: Mario fireballs vs samus charge shot. Charge shot will not beat the fireball until it's fully charged. Lasers and samus bombs are the highest priority projectiles because they can only be shielded, never traded or beaten. Actually, bombs are higher, cuz they can't be reflected.

 

[ciaza]

Dude, seriously. We get combos aren't the be-all-end-all. We understand that spacing is important. Fireblaster literally said:

"Donkey Kong cannot combo fox very well on a big flat stage like that with no platforms so he has to resort to pokes, tech chases, and super hard reads in a matchup that's already ridiculously in fox's favor."

Reads and tech-chases are for the most part 'player-centric'. It's about using yourself not your character to win the situation. At some point however, there is literally nothing you can do. "There is no matchup, no stage, no move that cannot be defeated". I dare you to actually try taking the example literally and play a high level fox as DK on Sector Z. Then see how well you do. If you tried to win, it would degrade in to you camping beneath the wing, and you'd lose your argument because somehow it's the burden of the player to attack the other person.

 

[Studstill]

Boom 59-Stocks you in a 12 character battle because you spent 20,000 hours playing with items on hyrule and he spent 20,000 hours playing without items on dreamland.


You should address this:



Do me a favor and list the items you don't want to be allowed with a short explanation why they are bad, and why that explanation does not apply to items in general lol

Lol at first part, although officially I think we`ve done 3, 59/58/60. Boom is very good.
I don`t need items. The game does. I`ll write my list on a thread in a minute.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

To wit, I`m sure Boom could win a match without comboing AT ALL. In fact, we were chatting the other day about what I call a "theoretical combo", and wht he calls an "extended combo", i.e . even if your opponent recovers, assuming that there is not much of a pause in the fight, if you strike him without beign hit the combo is still live.

Uh I listened to this conversation, and im 100% pretty sure boomfan meant doing tech chases or frame traps, so that a player literally cannot escape. He did not agree that a 5-stock is a game-long combo and you were too high to realize what he meant.

There is no argument at all in the "I don`t like the way M2K" plays. That`s insane to use as a rationale for anything, and I think this whole "he came and beat everyone" thing is disgusting. Did he really beat "everyone"? Id he the undisputed best SSB64 palyer of all time? Then stop acting like it and figure out how to beat him. I will. Kero will.

This is not why Hyrule is banned so you sound dumb here
LOL especially since you think you can beat M2K and you cant even beat STRANDED with YOUR RULESET

 

[Studstill]

priority exists. Don't try to twist game data around. Clank bubbles are evidence of this. Sangoku, what is it, 8 percent or something both ways? Further, to simplify: Mario fireballs vs samus charge shot. Charge shot will not beat the fireball until it's fully charged. Lasers and samus bombs are the highest priority projectiles because they can only be shielded, never traded or beaten. Actually, bombs are higher, cuz they can't be reflected.

This is why I think you, and most of the community at large are terrible/clueless about the actual game. I know I`ve been making voicing some unpopular opinions, but SERIOUSLY: Priority is the stupidest way to discuss move interaction in SSB64.
I NEVER TWIST GAME DATA YOU ****ING TWONK. NEVER.
"Bombs are higher priority because they can`t be reflected" is wrong in a million ways. I truly don`t think you have any idea how this game works, it`s amazing anyone ever let you make a decision about anything official.
Clanks prove clanks. You could describe the mathematical difference in hitbox v hitbox interactions as priority, but it`s a stretch, and why are we stretching? Oh right, because you suck off the melee brawl people, actually don`t like SSB64, and think it`s dying anyway because your view of the game is hopelessly flawed. MAybe this will be the first time in the history of Cobr you admit you're wrong, but just to call out a few people who agree that:
Priority is a really foolish or outright incorrect way to discuss move interaction in SSB64.
Sangoku, Boom, Fays, MATTS, I think Phox, Fruity, and FUNKNOWN to name a few.
Sorry if I`m misquoting, Cobr refuses to argue on merit.

 

[Cobrevolution]

you really have no idea what you're talking about. Please, embarrass yourself some more. It's amusing.

 

[ciaza]

Argument from Authority

I'm not saying who's right or wrong, but these are the sorts of fallacies FB is talking about.

TBH at this point this argument is never going to end. You think you're right because I have no idea why. Most people who come on here spouting how great they are normally shut up after getting whooped by actual good people.

 

[Sedda]

This is not going to go anywhere. Can we talk about something else?

 

[Studstill]

Uh I listened to this conversation, and im 100% pretty sure boomfan meant doing tech chases or frame traps, so that a player literally cannot escape. He did not agree that a 5-stock is a game-long combo and you were too high to realize what he meant.



This is not why Hyrule is banned so you sound dumb here
LOL especially since you think you can beat M2K and you cant even beat STRANDED with YOUR RULESET

Again, the rust is coming off. I got beat up by you guys yeah, but I was drunk sleep deprived and stoned that whole weeekend. It was a blast, good times.
I`ll clarify with Boom, I didn`t know you were in that call. But yes technically a ROLL CHASE, is what we were referring to, any moment that your opponent can make a move technically ends the combo, but for practical purposes the combo isn`t over, i.e. you can attack regardless of which decision they make. This game has no combos. You can string together moves, sure, but it isn`t like other fighting games, or other games at all and I don`t understand the comparison. No other game has the freedom of movement that 64 does, even with 3D.
Seems no one knows exactly why Hyrule was banned, something about Bane`s thread and a decision by Cobr/chain-ace/one more. I think the fact that Isai plays primarily on Hyrule during streams speaks for itself. I haven't read on legitimate critique of Hyrule.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Studstill is the most sophomoric person I have ever met

 

[Studstill]

Studstill is the most sophomoric person I have ever met

How you mean, homie?
#socialthreadforreallol

 

[mixa]

this very well could go for months.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

This game has no combos.

There is literally a combo counter in training mode

Do you have an IQ of 40 or somthing?

 

[Cobrevolution]

I had nothing to do with hyrule being banned. Did you even read what I said?

 

[Studstill]

Nah mixa, I`m about done. Least there was discussion for a brief moment. Hyrule reinstatement and Item thread forthcoming.
Karajan: Stop trolling. You know what I mean.

 

[Skrlx]

Studstill commentary:

*the game ends*

That was a nice combo by X player.

 

[rjgbadger]

This game has no combos. You can string together moves, sure, but it isn`t like other fighting games, or other games at all and I don`t understand the comparison.

It isn't just 'strings of moves by 1 person hitting the other person that happen to connect consecutively without a counter-hit.' The game has a combo meter, and if the combo meter goes from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, there was NO escape from that combo, aside from certain DI scenarios. those 6 other hits were because of the 1st hit.

Players focus on combos because combos lead to kills. If I can get 1 hit and you're LOCKED in stun(Read: a actual COMBO, the COMBO meter reads it so) until you die, I only needed 1 hit in the neutral game to take a stock. This is by definition more efficient than not comboing, and instead play the neutral game all stock hoping to eventually kill them. When you continuously are being combo'd and killed versus a good player, and your hits don't result in death combos/kill scenarios yourself, you don't have much a chance of winning, aside from suicides by the other player.

No one is saying the neutral game should not be focused on. Its one of the most important realms of interaction in this game, to most players, simply because 1 hit can lead to a stock so quickly in a myriad of matchups. If you don't understand these things, or just refute it out of stubbornness/spite, fine. Either way I am through with ever conversing towards you in regards to the mechanics and competitive aspect of the game. You Win.

 

[mixa]

do you guys wanna know the truest combo of the game, the one that even TAS can't save?

f-throw → f-punch

quite magical