Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[Studstill]

It isn't just 'strings of moves by 1 person hitting the other person that happen to connect consecutively without a counter-hit.' The game has a combo meter, and if the combo meter goes from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, there was NO escape from that combo, aside from certain DI scenarios. those 6 other hits were because of the 1st hit.

Players focus on combos because combos lead to kills. If I can get 1 hit and you're LOCKED in stun(Read: a actual COMBO, the COMBO meter reads it so) until you die, I only needed 1 hit in the neutral game to take a stock. This is by definition more efficient than not comboing, and instead play the neutral game all stock hoping to eventually kill them. When you continuously are being combo'd and killed versus a good player, and your hits don't result in death combos/kill scenarios yourself, you don't have much a chance of winning, aside from suicides by the other player.

No one is saying the neutral game should not be focused on. Its one of the most important realms of interaction in this game, to most players, simply because 1 hit can lead to a stock so quickly in a myriad of matchups. If you don't understand these things, or just refute it out of stubbornness/spite, fine. Either way I am through with ever conversing towards you in regards to the mechanics and competitive aspect of the game. You Win.

We all win!

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

We all win!

Well you won 0 times against me on keyboard today, even with your ruleset, and everytime i try to give you advice you yell at me and complain and make excuses of why your random up b's are good etc. so good luck improving.

 

[Cobrevolution]

he's not going to improve, he's just going to go back to his usual state of being able to beat everyone he encounters

with his friend who's the best samus player he's ever seen

and win apex 2015

 

[SheerMadness]

You guys should just leave studstill to his ideals.

Eventually he'll figure out, on his own, that kirby up b's and upsmashes aren't too effective.

 

[Sangoku]

Kirby's up b is great.








Between stocks to get bigger.

 

[Chaostatic]

I can't sleep. Someone link me to a good ssb match.

 

[Cobrevolution]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q7qR1j8VLQ

cash money vs solo dolo featuring kero and LD on commentary

this is one of my favorite videos

 

[Sedda]

LD for best 64 commentator.

He sounds the same way he plays. Calm, collected, and gimmicky as ****.

jk I love LD

 

[Fireblaster]

I didn`t see you point out any "assumptions or fallacies", because there were none. If you wan to disagree, please do so without false stating my argument is logically flawed, or at least point out said flaws.

I said I didn't feel like going back and pointing out every fallacy you made. I just felt like addressing your original questions but since you're asking for it I'll point out any more that you make.

That is totally anecdotal and arbitrary.

This is not anecdotal. It is not something that specifically happened to me as that is how the DK vs Fox matchup will play out no matter what on sector Z unless either player doesn't care about winning. And how in the world is this arbitrary?

You peopel have decided that "combos" are the only way to play the game. This is false. Smash Bros 64 does not exist solely on combos. The "fights" in this game are a series of interactions between opponents in 2D space, with one of the most controllable movement systems in existence. True skill in this game lies not in "tech" or in "combos" but in winning the interaction that can lead to the combo, i.e hitting your opponent without getting hit, enabling you to continue the combo.

Uhh... what? Nobody has said that "combos are the only way to play the game". None of this addresses the problem with the example matchup I gave.

Again, maybe some of this is over your head, despite your vast knowledge of the game, the way many of you think of it is warped, obsessed with combos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

If anything, I would say the biggest difference between my approach to the game and yours is:
You: Move-centric, match-up centric, stage centric. All about what char vs. what, on where, and focused on "technique".
Me: Player centric, movement centric. Period. There is no matchup, no stage, no move that cannot be defeated. There is no priority: Get any hitbox into a hurtbox and success!

What does this have to do with anything that's being discussed?

The fundamental skill in this game, the true form of smash, is knowing where your opponent`s hurtbox will be, and putting a hitbox there. To this end, I believe DL is great for practice, but the size cramps some characters (or all) and shouldn`t be used for serious competition. Hyrule and Sector Z are the only boards that provide adequate space to prepare for encounters. To use metaphor as seems popular: This is not a boxing ring, not a fencing duel, not a chess game. This is two characters thrust into an arena with only one of them surviving.

You're just repeating your argument here without saying anything noteworthy.

The second biggest difference is that I FLAT OUT REFUSE to determine a ruleset based on stopping a playstyle. The burden is NOT on your opponent to allow you to attack. The burden is on you to attack them.

Exactly, which is why playing defensively in ssb64 is the dominant strategy and used by most high level players. This is also the reason that the bigger stages are banned according to my reasons above, because defense is so good that no player feels safe approaching each other, resulting in stalemates. You have yet to address the stalemate issue.

Perhaps it`s a different way of thinking, and even about the game, but I simply cannot respond to a loss with any other excuse than that person beat me. Not to ban a stage, or whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

We didn't ban stages to stop a playstyle nor as an excuse for why a person won. Stages are banned for either of the two reasons I said in my previous post.

If you guys want this apparently degraded version of the game, fine. I`d say go play melee.

What?

Again, try it out, if you think I`m so silly. I`ll be making some videos later, of myself and another player with my rules, and we`ll see how high level the play is or not.

Now THIS is anecdotal. You making a video with another player in an items match will prove nothing about the game's metagame. It would be like uploading a match video of samus winning with only uair and nair to "prove" that they're samus's best moves.

Perhaps, actual evidence is needed, the only objections left are about "NO RNG" and I disagree that variance is bad.

Uhh no, you still haven't addressed the two reasons that stages are banned: ridiculous matchups and bad metagame.

There is no argument at all in the "I don`t like the way M2K" plays. That`s insane to use as a rationale for anything,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

and I think this whole "he came and beat everyone" thing is disgusting. Did he really beat "everyone"? Id he the undisputed best SSB64 palyer of all time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

Obviously nobody actually meant that m2k LITERALLY beat everyone. They're saying that M2K came in beat a lot of the people he played against.

any moment that your opponent can make a move technically ends the combo, but for practical purposes the combo isn`t over, i.e. you can attack regardless of which decision they make.

Actually yes, it does mean that the combo is over. A combo is literally over the moment your opponent gets out of hitstun. What you are referring to in smash is probably best referred to as a frametrap or unblockable or guaranteed follow up, since those are the only three things that can guarantee a hit after a combo ends.

This game has no combos.

Actually by definition, it definitely has combos

You can string together moves, sure, but it isn`t like other fighting games, or other games at all and I don`t understand the comparison.

Smash 64 is very much like other fighting games. Many tactics, strategies, and gameplay flows are incredibly similar to other fighters. In fact, 64 is probably the smash game that's closest to 2D fighters.

Seems no one knows exactly why Hyrule was banned, something about Bane`s thread and a decision by Cobr/chain-ace/one more.

Now you're making a big assumption and just flat out ignoring everything I've said and what others have said throughout this thread

I think the fact that Isai plays primarily on Hyrule during streams speaks for itself. I haven't read on legitimate critique of Hyrule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

He likes playing on hyrule in friendly matches so he goes for hyrule a lot. It does not mean that his opinion is correct and that hyrule should be allowed just because he likes it. Also you have been reading several legitimate critiques of hyrule, you've just been tossing them aside and claiming that they're "not legitimate" based on ACTUALLY arbitrary claims like "don't give me playstyle or time constraint answers".

No, you don't get to decide what's a legitimate answer before we even give one to you. It's up to you to actually give reasons why OUR reasons that hyrule is banned are bad.

 

[Studstill]

Well goddamn, Mr. Fireblaster. That`s what I`d call a response. I`m drunk so....Anyway, I asked like, lol, all the skype groups earlier:

[6/4/2014 8:45:16 PM] Studstill: And anyone on if you had a second, cna I get a straight yes or no:
"Priority is a really foolish or outright inaccurate way to describe move interaction in SSB64?"

No answers really, until about an hour later EU stepped it`s **** up.
"
[6/4/2014 8:49:06 PM] BrTarolg: it's just hitbox and hurtbox
[6/4/2014 8:49:14 PM] BrTarolg: and overlapping on each frame
[6/4/2014 8:49:18 PM] BrTarolg: (60fps afaik?)
[6/4/2014 8:49:37 PM] BrTarolg: if a hitbox overlaps a hurtbox, then it hits basically
[6/4/2014 8:50:03 PM] BrTarolg: sometimes your hitbox is so big (or your hurtbox so small) that you hit them before their hitbox can cover your hurtbox
[6/4/2014 8:50:13 PM] BrTarolg: sometimes they add invincbibility to certain parts of the hurtbox
[6/4/2014 8:50:24 PM] BrTarolg: moves we think that have big priority just have big hitboxes
[6/4/2014 8:50:33 PM] BrTarolg: some moves can clank
[6/4/2014 8:50:38 PM] BrTarolg: which happens when two hitboxes overlap
[6/4/2014 8:50:46 PM] BrTarolg: some are transcendent meaning they never clank (like lasers)
[6/4/2014 8:51:06 PM] BrTarolg: thers a few more interactions like needles vs charge shot
[6/4/2014 8:51:09 PM] BrTarolg: and how needles have a hurtbox too
[6/4/2014 8:51:15 PM] BrTarolg: but that's about it
[6/4/2014 8:51:35 PM] BrTarolg: marths sword is one big hitbox but with no hurtbox
[6/4/2014 8:51:46 PM] BrTarolg: so we think of it [in Melee as] having high priority

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Karajan is right on the extended combo thing or w/e. I originally called it a momentum combo, meaning moves are hitting the opponent as a frame trap or good read shortly after your last hit.

Cobr mostly explained priority already, but I'll POINT an example out about it as well.
Priority exists in ground moves. The only time a clank won't happen on the ground is when a move has over a 8% difference for damage, ex. a fox jab vs samus fsmash. If Samus does a fsmash and fox tries to jab it, a little bubble will show that the move "connected" but will be OUT PRIORITIZED by samus's fsmash.

Fireblaster is like the logical fallacy god, he just knows everything.

 

[Cobrevolution]

No answers really, until about an hour later EU stepped it`s **** up.

[6/4/2014 8:51:09 PM] BrTarolg: and how needles have a hurtbox too

[6/4/2014 8:51:35 PM] BrTarolg: marths sword is one big hitbox but with no hurtbox
[6/4/2014 8:51:46 PM] BrTarolg: so we think of it [in Melee as] having high priority

so let me get this straight

none of us can use melee/brawl examples because they're different games

but you can use quotes from someone talking about melee

because it "proves" your point

nice

 

[The Star King]

That sort of % difference priority thing also exists in aerial vs projectile and ground vs projectile as well.

Ground vs projectile is similar to ground vs ground, it's the difference between clanking and the ground move just going straight through the projectile (I think the vice versa, projectile hitting through the ground move, can happen as well).

If you aerial a move you can stop it from hitting you if your aerial is strong enough. For example, if you Samus nair a Yoshi egg the egg won't hurt you, but if you uair it, the egg will hit you. I guess this is basically the same thing as ground vs projectile but in my mind they're a little different because clanking has a special animation, while hitting a projectile with an aerial does not (and we don't call it clanking for aerials). But anyways.

Also Fox lasers and Samus bombs are "intangible" and don't follow these rules. They go through attack hitboxes and only interact with "hurtboxes" (so Fox laser can hit a Link bomb because Link bomb has a hurtbox, but Fox laser cannot interact with other projectiles - Link's bomb may also seem to act differently than these rules because of its hurtbox btw)

all iirc

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Someone needs to define priority using hurtboxes and hitboxes so that Studstill understands

Studstill, you said that priority does not exist in the game.

Lets look at this statement:

STATEMENT_A: "Priorty does not Exist in SSB64"

If there is ONE situation where priority does not exist, that DOES NOT PROVE priority does not exist EVERYWHERE. BUT If there is at least ONE situation where priority does exist, then this is what is called a counterexample, and PROVES that STATEMENT_A is FALSE, and you are wrong.

Well how do we know if priority exists? Lets look at the DEFINITION:

OK so Above, the red square is the hitbox for the yellow hurtbox player
The Blue square is the hitbox for the green hurtbox player.

In Figure 1, the hitboxes of each attack are connecting with eachother AND the hitboxes are connecting with the other players hurtbox.

There are 3 MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE things that can happen:
1) Both players take damage
2) Neither players take damage (clank)
3) Only one player takes damage (one of the moves has PRIORITY over the other)

3 is THE DEFINITION of PRIORITY

Studstill, you are denying that (3) ever occurs. The other players here (Boom, SK, Cobr) say that it does occur if one of the moves is 8% stronger than the other.

I am going to believe the players that are way better than you at this game. Do the research yourself, using emulators to use hitbox display and frame advance, and find out. If you are wrong, or someone else comes back here and demonstrates that you are wrong, then you SHOULD ADMIT that you are wrong, and you dont have a profound knowledge of the game. Then maybe you'll finally question your other restarted assumptions and learn how to grow and become a better player.

 

[mixa]

hitboxes hit, hurtboxes get hurt
hitboxes have priority over hurtboxes
unless hurtboxes step up their game

 

[Studstill]

The argument from authority (Isai) related, guilty, good catch. Even those of us devoted to logic get sloppy every now and again. The others, strawman, etc, are just a result of apparently me misunderstanding the M2K/Hyrule thing. I`ll look into that some more.

Karajan is right on the extended combo thing or w/e. I originally called it a momentum combo, meaning moves are hitting the opponent as a frame trap or good read shortly after your last hit.

Cobr mostly explained priority already, but I'll POINT an example out about it as well.
Priority exists in ground moves. The only time a clank won't happen on the ground is when a move has over a 8% difference for damage, ex. a fox jab vs samus fsmash. If Samus does a fsmash and fox tries to jab it, a little bubble will show that the move "connected" but will be OUT PRIORITIZED by samus's fsmash

Wow I totally forgot Steve was in that call. LD, him, and I had a ridiculously long chat last night about well, everything, although I don`t think we made it to Hyrule. But "good read shortly after your last hit" was what I remember being the our agreement point, whatevs.
Boom, perhaps it`s a personal objection to the word "priority" in that it (IMO) it refers to move v. move interactions, which don`t really exist in this game. Hitbox v. hitbox is math based, although I still believe there is a momentum component to interactions. The examples I used last night:
DK UpB vs. Kirby Nair: A great example of how saying "priority" could confuse new players (or current ones). Depending on where and when you connect the "moves" drastically alters the hitbox interaction. A high hit (the arms) will not get through, but a hit to the hurtbox will (lower). Thus talking about priority applies to moves is wrong and misleading in this case, so why aren`t we just abandoning it for all?
Yoshi`s second jump v Kirby Nair/Bair:
This is really the only example I can clearly give of why I think there is a "momentum" component to both knockback and hitbox interaction (re:sametime, cancel). You can sometimes break Yoshi`s jump with a Nair, if you time it right. I haven`t messed around with this TAS wise, but it seems that Kirby`s momentum and the "internal momentum" (when in the Nair they connect) are factors, again making priority a sloppy way to talk about it. This is even more obvious with the Bair, much more rare that you can break Yosh jump with this move, but I`ve done it.
Forget the priority debate for a minute, it might just be word wrangling it seems. Perhaps I am wrong in my beliefs, please verify or refute:

The interaction between hitboxes/hurtboxes is defined by some base attributes such as damage and knockback, but also depends on when (within the move) they connect, and based on character momentum.

That sort of % difference priority thing also exists in aerial vs projectile and ground vs projectile as well.

This is the exact kind of sentence I abhor. You seem to be grouping moves into categories of effect based on whether or not they are ground moves or aerials. Do you have evidence that the hitboxes are different types based on the move that generated it?
AFAIK: A hitbox is a hitbox; has certain size, damage, and base knockback attributes depending on what move it came from, but doesn`t interact differently if it's a special move or aerial or smash that generated it.

Ground vs projectile is similar to ground vs ground, it's the difference between clanking and the ground move just going straight through the projectile (I think the vice versa, projectile hitting through the ground move, can happen as well).

If you aerial a move you can stop it from hitting you if your aerial is strong enough. For example, if you Samus nair a Yoshi egg the egg won't hurt you, but if you uair it, the egg will hit you. I guess this is basically the same thing as ground vs projectile but in my mind they're a little different because clanking has a special animation, while hitting a projectile with an aerial does not (and we don't call it clanking for aerials). But anyways.

I don`t use the word clank, or priority, because I prefer to use terminology that is most widely representative/absolutely correct and I think there are more accurate ways to speak about this. In fact, I assumed this was all worked out mathematically already. It appears not. The Samus Nair/Uair v Egg situation is based on damage differential, like whether moves cancel (clanking) or generate a same time hit (both connect). Hit the egg with X% damage and it will recognize a "hitbox interaction" and harmlessly break, not enough and it pretends it just connected normally, with hurtbox. Again, I do not believe that hitboxes are different re: move they came from. Also, I believe there is a momentum component to hitbox interaction, which further complicates things, another reason "priority" is a foolish way to describe things. See the Yosh example up there^.

Also Fox lasers and Samus bombs are "intangible" and don't follow these rules. They go through attack hitboxes and only interact with "hurtboxes" (so Fox laser can hit a Link bomb because Link bomb has a hurtbox, but Fox laser cannot interact with other projectiles - Link's bomb may also seem to act differently than these rules because of its hurtbox btw)

Correct.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

The argument from authority (Isai) related, guilty, good catch. Even those of us devoted to logic get sloppy every now and again. The others, strawman, etc, are just a result of apparently me misunderstanding the M2K/Hyrule thing. I`ll look into that some more.

Wow I totally forgot Steve was in that call. LD, him, and I had a ridiculously long chat last night about well, everything, although I don`t think we made it to Hyrule. But "good read shortly after your last hit" was what I remember being the our agreement point, whatevs.
Boom, perhaps it`s a personal objection to the word "priority" in that it (IMO) it refers to move v. move interactions, which don`t really exist in this game. Hitbox v. hitbox is math based, although I still believe there is a momentum component to interactions. The examples I used last night:
DK UpB vs. Kirby Nair: A great example of how saying "priority" could confuse new players (or current ones). Depending on where and when you connect the "moves" drastically alters the hitbox interaction. A high hit (the arms) will not get through, but a hit to the hurtbox will (lower). Thus talking about priority applies to moves is wrong and misleading in this case, so why aren`t we just abandoning it for all?
Yoshi`s second jump v Kirby Nair/Bair:
This is really the only example I can clearly give of why I think there is a "momentum" component to both knockback and hitbox interaction (re:sametime, cancel). You can sometimes break Yoshi`s jump with a Nair, if you time it right. I haven`t messed around with this TAS wise, but it seems that Kirby`s momentum and the "internal momentum" (when in the Nair they connect) are factors, again making priority a sloppy way to talk about it. This is even more obvious with the Bair, much more rare that you can break Yosh jump with this move, but I`ve done it.
Forget the priority debate for a minute, it might just be word wrangling it seems. Perhaps I am wrong in my beliefs, please verify or refute:

The interaction between hitboxes/hurtboxes is defined by some base attributes such as damage and knockback, but also depends on when (within the move) they connect, and based on character momentum.


This is the exact kind of sentence I abhor. You seem to be grouping moves into categories of effect based on whether or not they are ground moves or aerials. Do you have evidence that the hitboxes are different types based on the move that generated it?
AFAIK: A hitbox is a hitbox; has certain size, damage, and base knockback attributes depending on what move it came from, but doesn`t interact differently if it's a special move or aerial or smash that generated it.


I don`t use the word clank, or priority, because I prefer to use terminology that is most widely representative/absolutely correct and I think there are more accurate ways to speak about this. In fact, I assumed this was all worked out mathematically already. It appears not. The Samus Nair/Uair v Egg situation is based on damage differential, like whether moves cancel (clanking) or generate a same time hit (both connect). Hit the egg with X% damage and it will recognize a "hitbox interaction" and harmlessly break, not enough and it pretends it just connected normally, with hurtbox. Again, I do not believe that hitboxes are different re: move they came from. Also, I believe there is a momentum component to hitbox interaction, which further complicates things, another reason "priority" is a foolish way to describe things. See the Yosh example up there^.


Correct.

This whole post is GARBAGE because you don't have any REAL definitions.

****ing define your goddamn terminology because it IS NOT CONSISTENT with the terminology that EVERY OTHER SMASH PLAYER uses.

 

[rjgbadger]

Yoshi's Double Jump Armor is 100% based of the percentage yoshi is at, and the knockback of the attack hitting yoshi.

http://www.ssb64.com/assets/data/YoshiArmorBreaks.txt

Here is Bloodpeach's text file, of every percent a move will break Yoshi's armor, at all levels of the move's staleness. Yoshi's armor breaking ONLY happens when this condition is met, and a move hit him at the % threshold for that move. The only other ways for yoshi to be hit after a double jump are yoshi using any aerial attack to cancel his jump(Any aerial, including aerial B attacks)

Kirby nair won't 'sometimes' break the armor, and neither does kirby bair. Here are the %'s for it if the txt file is too confusing/you don't want to use it.

NAir 69 69 75 82 89
NAir 134 134 148 148 165

BAir 80 80 87 94 111
BAir 122 122 134 147 162

These are all levels of staleness, for both the strong(first line) and weak(2nd line) hit of Kirby nair and bair, respectively. These are the absolute %'s needed to break his jump. This means, at 68%, you should never be able to break the jump with nair.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Thus talking about priority applies to moves is wrong and misleading in this case, so why aren`t we just abandoning it for all?

you're apparently the only one who thinks it's "wrong and misleading"

further, DK upb - kirby nair can get through, provided dk does his upb on the ground, because his arms are only invincible when he does his upb in the air.

Do you have evidence that the hitboxes are different types based on the move that generated it?

perhaps this difference is what you are looking for

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/804/dkupbair.gif

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1223/dkupbground.gif

You can sometimes break Yoshi`s jump with a Nair, if you time it right.

no

see: hipstur's post

 

[Shears]

I honestly love that guide in a weird serial killer kinda way. Its like bloodpeach unlocked the back door to yoshis house so we can all sneak in and strip yoshi of his armor and take care of him anyway we please.

 

[mixa]

This whole post is GARBAGE because you don't have any REAL definitions.

****ing define your goddamn terminology because it IS NOT CONSISTENT with the terminology that EVERY OTHER SMASH PLAYER uses.

please do audio versions of your posts. please

 

[Cobrevolution]

my steve impression really needs work

i can read his post perfectly in my head but i cannot mimic it

http://vocaroo.com/i/s150ml4QsgQz

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

lol thats not how i would say it

 

[Studstill]

This whole post is GARBAGE because you don't have any REAL definitions.

****ing define your goddamn terminology because it IS NOT CONSISTENT with the terminology that EVERY OTHER SMASH PLAYER uses.

Spoiler: THIS IS WHY YOU ARE A TARD

HOLY ****

Hipstur and Cobr, thank you for ceasing to call me a ****ing idiot noob or whatever, and hipstur, nicely done! I think what I mean by momentum might just be based on percentage of damage (hittee) vs move of hitter. Like right now, and always KARAJAN, I have no problem admitting when I`m wrong, I`m just rarely ever convinced until counter-arguments are appropriately evidenced, as Hipster via Bloodpeach did above.
@Cobr: No, I don`t mean are moves different via start location a la DK UpB, I was asking Star King to clarify what he meant. Not that you made a wrong point, just not quite what I meant.
KARAJAN: CLEARLY LASERS AND BOMBS ARE THE GODDAMN EXCEPTION, AND NOT THE RULE.
I CLEARLY MEANT STARKING`S SEEMING ASSERTION THAT GROUND MOVE HITBOXES/=/AERIAL HITBOXES.
CLEARLY, YOU FULL TARD MFER. Good talk last night though, and thanks for the beatings.
Re: terminology. I don`t know really how to resolve this. I feel like "the terminology that everyone in the community uses" is literally that, just terminology the community uses. Clanking/priority I feel are not terms that apply to SSB64, they have been puled in from other video games. Using "HOP" instead of "JUMP" is just ****ing stupid, so NO, I will not stop saying:
"half-jump" (C button < 3 frames)
"fixed height jump" (C Button)
"maximum jump" and "variable height jump" (stick jumping)
BECAUSE THAT`S ACCURATE AND HOP SOUNDS REALLY DUMB. Who doesn`t understand what a half-jump is?

 

[Sangoku]

I have no problem admitting when I`m wrong, I`m just rarely ever convinced until counter-arguments are appropriately evidenced

That's the weird part. You often seem to be so convinced about something with absolutely no solid ground to back you up. I mean, how can you reach such a level of conviction by yourself in the first place?

Terminology is precisely what a community uses. That's the main goal of nomenclature: that everybody understands each other. The terms in smash are the results of smash's history and they're like the fundations of the game. I don't see why you would want to change that so bad, unless there's something specifically wrong about those terms (which isn't the case). On the top of my head, the only one that is wrong and we still use is DI, but I haven't even read you contest that term.

 

[mixa]

there's no problem with DI

the only people who have problem with DI is melee/barwl players and people who think moving in the air (after a jump of sth) is DI
both irrelevant

otherwise, it's an unnecessary theoretical discussion

 

[Studstill]

That's the weird part. You often seem to be so convinced about something with absolutely no solid ground to back you up. I mean, how can you reach such a level of conviction by yourself in the first place?

there's something specifically wrong about those terms

Clearly I think this is the case with "priority", but I honestly didn`t think it was widely used, I just wanted Cobr to stop saying it. It propagates to new players, i.e. someone said a move was a "combo-breaker" the other day, and my jaw dropped.
All of this is with the best intentions, and I don`t appreciate "no solid ground" allegation. Sure technical data is always preferred, but again, I`ve seen quite a lot of interactions in Smash and feel comfortable making reasonable evidence based assertions. I don`t care who knows what, I do think I have a "profound knowledge" of the game, but it isn`t important who knows what, or who figured it out, it`s simply important that we all have the correct information.
New Q: I don`t trust online, i.e. has the Kirby UpB starting lag ledge grab ever been done on console? I don`t remember that ever happening, and I`ve seen it 3 times now online, perhaps a function of the FPS variation?
Also, what`s the DI beef, seems like pretty clear cut stuff to me.

 

[Sangoku]

The problem with DI is that it doesn't influence the direction.

 

[Cobrevolution]

combo breaking is just a term for a move. samus upb is a good combo breaker, so is pika upb and dk upb. they interrupt combos.

 

[Shears]

Yeah its really not DI its PI. DI is directional influence and your direction isn't whats being changed by the stick, any direction changed is caused by the hitbox to hurtbox connection made indirectly from the stick. PI would be positional influence where your character position is changing during the hit but everyone still calls it DI. I think I might start saying PI.

I have really bad PI.

 

[Fireblaster]

This is the exact kind of sentence I abhor. You seem to be grouping moves into categories of effect based on whether or not they are ground moves or aerials. Do you have evidence that the hitboxes are different types based on the move that generated it?
AFAIK: A hitbox is a hitbox; has certain size, damage, and base knockback attributes depending on what move it came from, but doesn`t interact differently if it's a special move or aerial or smash that generated it.

A ground attack hitbox is different from an aerial attack hitbox in that ground attacks can clank (both characters visibly stop their attack animation and reel back) with other ground attacks. I am unsure if there are even any other differences besides that, but that is a factual difference. The only related thing I can think of is that there are some attack hitboxes that only hit grounded opponents but that's a different story.

I don`t use the word clank, or priority, because I prefer to use terminology that is most widely representative/absolutely correct and I think there are more accurate ways to speak about this.

Well sorry, but you can't barge into a community that existed for a long time and tell them all they're using the wrong words. If you're so adamant about it, bring up whatever terms you think are better and convince us to use them.

Clanking/priority I feel are not terms that apply to SSB64,

Regardless of what you want to call them, those things do exist in this game so they do apply.

they have been puled in from other video games.

Yes, because they made sense in other games and they make sense here too.

Using "HOP" instead of "JUMP" is just ****ing stupid, so NO, I will not stop saying:
"half-jump" (C button < 3 frames)
"fixed height jump" (C Button)
"maximum jump" and "variable height jump" (stick jumping)
BECAUSE THAT`S ACCURATE AND HOP SOUNDS REALLY DUMB. Who doesn`t understand what a half-jump is?

This is probably one of the most pointless arguments I've heard. Call it half jumps if you want, nobody will give a crap and the worst that will happen is that people will take half a second longer to understand your sentences. This is like if I got mad that the smash community kept calling it shielding and grabbing instead of blocking and throwing.

In other fighting games, it's referred to as jumping. When characters have the option to do a bigger jump, it's called a super jump. In king of fighters, characters can also do jumps that are smaller than their regular jumps, called hyper hops and SHORT HOPS. Go over to the KOF community and yell at them about how they've been saying it wrong for years.

Clearly I think this is the case with "priority", but I honestly didn`t think it was widely used, I just wanted Cobr to stop saying it. It propagates to new players, i.e. someone said a move was a "combo-breaker" the other day, and my jaw dropped.

I understand your point that priority is mostly used wrongly but most people in the community know what we mean when we refer to it as "priority". Same thing for combo breaker, people just use that term to refer to moves that let you escape frame traps in the middle of a combo that isn't a real combo.

All of this is with the best intentions, and I don`t appreciate "no solid ground" allegation. Sure technical data is always preferred, but again, I`ve seen quite a lot of interactions in Smash and feel comfortable making reasonable evidence based assertions.

Except you haven't been giving evidence based assertions. Most of your arguments have come down to "You and I just view the game differently, you just view it wrong","I don't like that word", "that term sounds dumb", "I THINK it's like this", or "it just SEEMS that way".

New Q: I don`t trust online, i.e. has the Kirby UpB starting lag ledge grab ever been done on console? I don`t remember that ever happening, and I`ve seen it 3 times now online, perhaps a function of the FPS variation?

Besides any issues people can have with inputs on an emulator not 100% exactly matching that of an n64 or graphics being glitchy due to video plugins, the game on an emulator runs 100% EXACTLY like it does on console.

 

[mixa]

graphics being glitchy due to video plugins, the game on an emulator runs 100% EXACTLY like it does on console.

this is new to me, i think. what is an example of a graphic feature that can't be properly emulated?

 

[BLOOD 0F GANON]

Got a solid question. I am having issues with my Project M game loading. I have it already properly set on my SD card and it ran smoothly in the past. Now when I load it up it seems to send me back to the Wii board. I am not sure if it is due to a bad disc or a terrible SD card. I have also looked in the forms help section for hints and other relative titles but I haven't seen anything posted about Project M loading back to the Wii menu. Any ideas?

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Got a solid question. I am having issues with my Project M game loading. I have it already properly set on my SD card and it ran smoothly in the past. Now when I load it up it seems to send me back to the Wii board. I am not sure if it is due to a bad disc or a terrible SD card. I have also looked in the forms help section for hints and other relative titles but I haven't seen anything posted about Project M loading back to the Wii menu. Any ideas?

Close, if you like combos and stuff you should play this game; but this is the 64 section

 

[Shears]

Got a solid question. I am having issues with my Project M game loading. I have it already properly set on my SD card and it ran smoothly in the past. Now when I load it up it seems to send me back to the Wii board. I am not sure if it is due to a bad disc or a terrible SD card. I have also looked in the forms help section for hints and other relative titles but I haven't seen anything posted about Project M loading back to the Wii menu. Any ideas?

Whats Project M?

 

[Sangoku]

Got a solid question. I am having issues with my Project M game loading. I have it already properly set on my SD card and it ran smoothly in the past. Now when I load it up it seems to send me back to the Wii board. I am not sure if it is due to a bad disc or a terrible SD card. I have also looked in the forms help section for hints and other relative titles but I haven't seen anything posted about Project M loading back to the Wii menu. Any ideas?

You're posting in the wrong section, this is about smash 64 for the nintendo 64. I suggest you go there to ask your question.

 

[BLOOD 0F GANON]

You're posting in the wrong section, this is about smash 64 for the nintendo 64. I suggest you go there to ask your question.

I was read on the top thread name and it said "talk about anything" Didn't see it named 64 thread only...

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

I was read on the top thread name and it said "talk about anything" Didn't see it named 64 thread only...

there are probably less than 10 people in the whole 64 section that play project M, or even own a wiicube

 

[Sangoku]

I was read on the top thread name and it said "talk about anything" Didn't see it named 64 thread only...

Well I have no idea how you ended up here, but this is the smash 64 subforum. So yeah sure you can ask about PM here if you want, but don't be too disappointed when nobody answers your question. I just thought you'd prefer asking in the right section where you would have a lot more chance of getting an answer.

 

[Madao]

Here is Bloodpeach's text file, of every percent a move will break Yoshi's armor, at all levels of the move's staleness.

His list is actually not 100% complete . It's close enough though.