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So I guess ICs are "S Tier" now :) / :( ?

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Jun 3, 2010
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Double posting for new material:

Nakat Beat M2k

I came in 2nd at my last tournament, some pretty "exciting" sets
http://www.twitch.tv/kcbrawl/b/373074283

4:37:30 - WSF vs. Domo
6:01:00 - WF vs. MJG
7:14:50 - LF vs. Mr. Doom
7:32:30 - GF vs. MJG - Game 5 Thriller
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Ok, I watched you vs MJG. In WF in the first 40 seconds, you made good decisions, but you could have made even better ones to give you the lead. After he landed from Tornado on the top platform, I didn't see you go for upair punishes. He did something similar again where you could have punished but didn't. Also, you had a guaranteed low % nair lock to iceblock to CG, but I guess you got too excited and full hopped instead. You still one the first game though, but all of the little mistakes could have given you even more advantage.

I watched the 2nd game, I think it's just those little itty bitty mistakes that prevent you from beating MJG because most of the time, you have him! You just make a lot of small minuscule mistakes that add up and don't give you wins that you should have.

3rd game, on your first stock, it would have been best if you saved nana & not given up stage control. I think you rolled away when MK was chasing you, then he gimped nana :/
Also, slight timing issues like when MK was Nadoing on the platform and was in lag, you went in and got hit right before he stopped. Also, not reading the side-b landing on 2nd stock which would have gotten you a CG to a Kill, and then you would have soo much momentum, and you probably would have won the match.

4th game, idk dumb MK vs IC gimp stuff happened, don't know what to say except to not get near the edge in the first place if you can avoid it. But you brought it back to last stock! You had a very good mindset to get him there from a 3 stock deficit. Also, nice try on Fair to grab, but too bad MK footstooled :/

Overall, you're ICs are fluid and controlled. You have pretty good setups for grabs, although I'd suggest learning a few more. The main thing I saw was the fact that you could make better decisions mid match, and Idk how to train that since I'm learning it myself and am still not great at this game. ESAM/Vinnie or another top player would probably be better able to explain how to get past that barrier. And tbh, that's really the only thing missing, along w/ learning tripless grabs vs MK which I know you already know, but consistency issues I guess is the main thing. Maybe you could learn more setups to use because your ICs aren't too far off from the "norm" yet I know you can make them even more special. Try new desyncs to add to your game.

I hope this helped

~Gadiel
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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I wasn't particularly looking for a critique, but thanks for the input. I'm going to tell you some of things I disagreed with and why.

Ok, I watched you vs MJG. In WF in the first 40 seconds, you made good decisions, but you could have made even better ones to give you the lead. After he landed from Tornado on the top platform, I didn't see you go for upair punishes. He did something similar again where you could have punished but didn't.
I didn't punish for three reasons-
1. I wanted to keep him in Nair range so that it was an option to work with if he made a huge mistake
2. I wanted to gather information with which counter Uair tactic he'd go with if put under pressure so I knew what I could bait later in the game
3. I had lost 4 tournament sets against MJG in a row where I committed to more aggressive Uair punishing as an option, and obviously based on the results record that didn't work out well

Mostly reason 1, because I am much more aggressive using Uair to punish once Nair percents are passed

Also, you had a guaranteed low % nair lock to iceblock to CG, but I guess you got too excited and full hopped instead. You still one the first game though, but all of the little mistakes could have given you even more advantage.
I FH'ed intentionally. MJG has been known to SDI into nair to prevent the ledge slip, and I didn't think he'd actually ledge slip. I was hoping to get a fullhop Nair and then he'd SDI into my grab. I figured he'd SDI because I was being obvious about letting go the Uair punishes so he'd be in Nair percents, and I knew he knew that. I suspect he decided not to SDI the Nair BECAUSE I FH'ed the Nair option, but it might just have been a mistake.

If you watch 30 more seconds into the set, I get ANOTHER nair (because I didn't Uair punish) like you were suggesting, and has a 50/50 read since I opted not to go for Ice Shot. MJG knows to SDI the Ice Shot off stage if Naired on that side of the BF platform so I decided to depend on my ability to convert a read rather (at 50% chance I'd make it) than his ability to routinely SDI off the stage (which he'll do 75% of the time).

I watched the 2nd game, I think it's just those little itty bitty mistakes that prevent you from beating MJG because most of the time, you have him! You just make a lot of small minuscule mistakes that add up and don't give you wins that you should have.
If by itty bitty little mistakes you mean the kind that give him 3 extra stocks during the game and the worst DI to give him one of my stocks early, then yea. I consider them major mistakes and they were instrumental in losing that game. I dropped a grab on the first stock, I deserved whatever was coming my way since I had to play from behind because of it.

3rd game, on your first stock, it would have been best if you saved nana & not given up stage control. I think you rolled away when MK was chasing you, then he gimped nana :/

Also, slight timing issues like when MK was Nadoing on the platform and was in lag, you went in and got hit right before he stopped. Also, not reading the side-b landing on 2nd stock which would have gotten you a CG to a Kill, and then you would have soo much momentum, and you probably would have won the match.
I agree, especially the drill rush. If I converted that I would have had the win in the bag.

4th game, idk dumb MK vs IC gimp stuff happened, don't know what to say except to not get near the edge in the first place if you can avoid it. But you brought it back to last stock! You had a very good mindset to get him there from a 3 stock deficit. Also, nice try on Fair to grab, but too bad MK footstooled :/
Yea, I had a couple bad breaks that match. I was also upset Nana didn't airdodge/tech during my solo dthrow cg even though I was mashing shield and then she could do anything but roll away and I'd have her back in time and then she rolled away last stock. Kind of unfortunate but credit to MJG for having the presence of mind (or panic button option) to mash jump on the fair and having the fastest mashing. However, I made REALLY poor decisions to get that far down in the first place, so again that's on me.

Overall, you're ICs are fluid and controlled. You have pretty good setups for grabs, although I'd suggest learning a few more.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean since all of the grab setups are gimmicky and beaten by jump lol

The main thing I saw was the fact that you could make better decisions mid match, and Idk how to train that since I'm learning it myself and am still not great at this game. ESAM/Vinnie or another top player would probably be better able to explain how to get past that barrier.
Noted

And tbh, that's really the only thing missing, along w/ learning tripless grabs vs MK which I know you already know, but consistency issues I guess is the main thing. Maybe you could learn more setups to use because your ICs aren't too far off from the "norm" yet I know you can make them even more special. Try new desyncs to add to your game.
Rolls out all the new buffered desync options that nobody uses in a MU where running the desyncs is high risk. Gets told to learn more desyncs >_>

I hope this helped

~Gadiel
Thanks for the critique
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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What buffered desync's where you doing? And how do you do them? Also, what I meant was that you could make your game more mindgamy by switching up the desyncs you use and making it unpredictable by switching the times/move choice of your desyncs.
 

DeLux

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I mixed up LD1/LD2/LD3/LD5/2 Dash Dance/3 Dash Dance/hitlag/belay/squall/SND/turnaround desyncs as needed in the sets I linked at various times >_>

Not to mention various shield drop mixups as well as multiple desynced mixups with ice shot, Blizzard, fair, Nair, squall, Smash cancelling, etc. that lead straight to grab read situations

Not sure what more you're looking for in terms of mixups more so you'll have to be specific. If anything, I tend to focus too much on that aspect of playing rather than too little lol
 

SSBBDaisy

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For some reason, all Ice Climbers mains I know hope they aren't in the next game lol. I think it was a brilliant and unique character design. They better make it :D..............
 

κomıc

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There is no reason why the ICs will be or should be removed. They represent the first games ever released by Nintendo. Those who believe character placement is based on tiers or "how unbalanced" such character is clearly don't understand the reason why Smash Bros was made or what it represents. Now, "hoping"? Well, that's just your problem.
 

DeLux

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I disagree. There have been so many issues in terms of ICs function in both games that I if the trend continues, I'd rather they be excluded rather than included for the quality of the game overall as far as a playable character goes.

You could get the same nostalgia/homage factor by making them an assist trophy if you wanted.

If they are included, I hope to god they fix the inherent issues of the character that have been quite literally game breaking between the games they've been playable.
 

DeLux

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Just hobble them. Or Dthrow > Dthrow > Hobble

Ice Shot freezes before the standard 300 percent of an infinite, therefore including a hobble in a string is no longer an infinite.
 

DeLux

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I'm not seeing a 200% rule on that rulesset. Meaning infinite would mean it could continue indefinitely. That would technically mean you could dthrow most of the characters until kill percent since dthrow stops working at extremely high percents
 

DeLux

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Found a few new things in the lab today
New and terrible and terrifying things

I think I'm done labbing things out for a bit and am gonna work on applying the new options into my game. If those are successful I'll write up about them later :p

4 months late, but the 2013 Climbers are here
 

DeLux

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Get off work in about 3 and a half hours and then waking up around 11am and driving a few hours to a tournament. Got a lot of new tech stuff I'll be trying out for the first time on people in a tournament setting, so fingers crossed that the results are as positive as I'm hopeful they are.



Update: Ended up taking 2nd in both singles and doubles. Positive results on the new technology. Back to the lab for more tricks maybe
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Does anyone else find the lag on TVs to make them drop grabs? It just feels like on CRTs, every one is different and has a slight lag. Like I played P-1 in friendlies the other day, and I couldn't CG MK although I practiced the morning of, and was at like a 85% consistency. I'm just curious to see if this is a problem w/ any other IC player, but I know the way to beat it is to practice more & have visual/audio cues.
 

DeLux

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I haven't really heard of people having issues due to lag on different CRTs, however you might have issues because different sized TVs throw you off possibly?

If you're at 85% consistency, that's probably just you dropping. I don't know exactly what the probability is for 85%, but I do know that assuming the 1% drop trip rate, a play can expect to drop around 1 CG every six stocks to tripping alone, so a 15% drop rate is bound to be pretty bad
 

dettadeus

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If you're playing on a legitimate CRT, then the difference in lag is a couple of frames between TV's at most.

However, this is easily remedied by testing each TV before the tournament. If you don't like the lag on the TV, ask the TO not to assign you to it.
 

Prawn

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sup guise. i wanted to learn to play ice climbers, where should i start
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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I'm pretty sure I found a legit way to recover w/ popo if the opponent is ledgehogging. All you need to do is save your last jump, then if they grab the ledge, up-b, then snap the control stick in the opposite direction, and Popo will turn around(in his up-b animation) and get on the stage very slightly facing the opposite direction, and boom--profit. See I found something legit now Delux, lol.
 

DeLux

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Or you could, you know, Uair them since you still have your jump >_>
 

B0NK

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I'm pretty sure I found a legit way to recover w/ popo if the opponent is ledgehogging. All you need to do is save your last jump, then if they grab the ledge, up-b, then snap the control stick in the opposite direction, and Popo will turn around(in his up-b animation) and get on the stage very slightly facing the opposite direction, and boom--profit. See I found something legit now Delux, lol.
Nothing new, it's been known that b-reverse Up-B give a slight upward boost.

And as Delux said, Jump > U-Air or just Jump > Airdodge on stage, saving your 2nd jump is a given and a basic of Smash.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Nothing new, it's been known that b-reverse Up-B give a slight upward boost.

And as Delux said, Jump > U-Air or just Jump > Airdodge on stage, saving your 2nd jump is a given and a basic of Smash.
It's not a b-reverse though, you switch directions IN the 2nd duration of the Up-B animation. Check it out for yourself please. And you don't even have to save your up-b to use it. If the opponent is ledgehogging, if you get in range to up-b--tap the opposite direction AFTER you up-b then you'll get the boost and be turned around.
 

Hylian

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It's not a b-reverse though, you switch directions IN the 2nd duration of the Up-B animation. Check it out for yourself please. And you don't even have to save your up-b to use it. If the opponent is ledgehogging, if you get in range to up-b--tap the opposite direction AFTER you up-b then you'll get the boost and be turned around.
Uh..that's exactly how a B-reverse works lol. You press the opposite direction after you do the move.
 
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