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So how then do casuals and elitist interact?

Yuna

BRoomer
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Sep 1, 2004
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Yuna, you missed the point of my post. I wasn't complaining about how advanced techs weren't intuitive, I was pointing out how they make melee a very different game than what most of the casuals (the ones that haven't even heard of L-canceling) are used to.
Yet you said that Short Hopping isn't intuitive as if it were a bad thing.

You know what else isn't intuitive? Neutral Aerials. A lot of people jump and do all aerials except neutral because it's not immediatelly obvious. What else isn't intuitive? Air Control, to hold towards the stage when recovery.

Floating isn't intuitive. Heck, dodging isn't intuitive! You say it as if everything has to be intuitive or it's bad or bad for the casual gamers. Casual gamers are smarter than some people give them credit for. Trust me, I know plenty of casual gamers who discovered shorthopping on their own.

In fact, I discovered the Auto-Float entirely on my own without any help whatsoever while I was still a n00b.
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
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Portugal
What? I mentioned that short hopping was very easy to discover. Maybe you need to brush up on your reading skills...
 

Thino

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
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Mountain View, CA
Because the word "exploiter" is a word with bad connotations. An exploiter is someone who's inherently bad or who does bad things.

To exploit something is to do something bad. As such, he's talking smack about us when he calls us exploiters, though he's at the same time trying to say that he's got new respect for us nowadays. He still considers us exploiters nonetheless.
that article is full of contradictions anyway.
I think he calls competitive players exploiters in the sense that we use exploits , not that we're exploiting sthg. anyway beside the connotation lets admit he's not totally wrong
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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Sorry Flayl, I misunderstood you when you said "Those two techs". You were apparently referring to Wavedashing and L-canceling, not Wavedashing and Shorthopping (like the author of the article).
 

Mechageo

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
626
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Utah
Competitive players are exploiters.
Casual players don't want to be the very best that they can be.

Why are we even talking about Melee techniques in a Brawl forum anyway?

Shorthopping, L-Canceling, and Wavedashing are all out in Brawl.
 

Askeflink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
415
Location
Norway
What do you mean? The diffrence between casuals and the others aren't really that big, is it? If you don't mean those who refuse to come to tournaments anyways, and flames tournament-players, but otherwise the diffrence aren't that big. How would communication be a problem?
 

TheSpindoctor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
269
Anyhow, seeing as no-ones actually answered ( ^^ ), i'd say in this stuation the "competetive" player should offer solid advice and be up for as many matches as possible. I mean your improving everyones game whilst showing off your uber 1337ness! its win win <3
for you, its win win win! (anybody get the reference?)
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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5,384
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Umeå, Sweden
There isn't anything wrong with competitives or casuals. It's the scrubs (casual idiots) and elitists(competitive idiots) that are causing the problems. Seriously, we all need to make the distinctions.
 

AustiniusRex

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Dec 29, 2007
Messages
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Temporary. Soon to be replaced by a zombie-proof
There isn't anything wrong with competitives or casuals. It's the scrubs (casual idiots) and elitists(competitive idiots) that are causing the problems. Seriously, we all need to make the distinctions.
well played mookie, i was about to say that no one can call being competitive or casual more fun than the other. The simple truth is different people enjoy different things. We're better off letting them enjoy what they will instead of trying to figure who is playing the 'right' way. I do compete, but only in local tournaments. I can't wavedash, its possible i would have more fun if I could, but I am currently satisfied with the way I play and do not seek anything else to enhance my satisfaction. I think many casuals feel something like this and theres no reason to fight it.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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I'm not telling you psychos
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*insert praise for Mookie*

Now that I've actually read the article I got the feeling that he's more scornful somebody "foreign" came in and changed the atmosphere against his liking, thusly the unfair scorn for competitive play. If somebody came in a low level tournament and killed the whole thing, I'd be pissed too, but that's not fair to diss the playstyle because of it.
 

YinYang.ERROR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
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356
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Competitive players are exploiters.
Casual players don't want to be the very best that they can be.

Why are we even talking about Melee techniques in a Brawl forum anyway?

Shorthopping, L-Canceling, and Wavedashing are all out in Brawl.
shorthop is not out, and L-canceling has been switched to R and Z (or so I heard)...
 

DraginHikari

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There isn't anything wrong with competitives or casuals. It's the scrubs (casual idiots) and elitists(competitive idiots) that are causing the problems. Seriously, we all need to make the distinctions.
Normally I would go into my own perspective however, I think this would wrap up a majority of what I was going to say quite nicely.

The funny thing about negative stereotypes is that the ones who make themselves more obivious ending up becoming the stereotype while those who make themselves less obivious just get dragged into it unwillingly.
 

lengeta

Smash Ace
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Sep 20, 2005
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583
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Lehi, UT
This is a bigger problem in Smash that most other games...
*le sigh*

Basically, IMO, it's like this... When you play a game for the first time, there's a lot to learn. After some time with it, you learn what works and what doesn't work. You bring some friends over and they go through the same process. Eventually, tactics will develop. Your friends will learn some "cheap" thing to do to you and abuse it. At that point, you'll either agree to not use such tactics, or you'll find a way to counter and overcome it. Competitive gamers just have much more experience, so they know a lot more of these tactics others refer to being cheap. There's never anything cheap about it, "casuals" just have never dealt with that type of play before. I was SO ****ing good at Melee for 4 years, then I went to college and met some other good people and learn how crappy I actually was. Same thing happed in middle school with Goldeneye, and it's the same with every game.

How should they interact? Well, "casuals" need to stop whining, and "elitists" need to stop being elitist. The game isn't fun when one person is exploiting the other, and there really is no competition, and when casuals get schooled against a "pro" that's the view they're at. The better players should teach the worse players ways to improve their game, or why things are the way they are (ex. bracket seeding, 'items' rules, etc.). Worst players need to realize there's all sorts of things they've never seen if they've only been playing in their circle, some people like to play with different rules than they do, and the game doesn't support your self-created rules (ex. edge-hogging being cheap and dishonorable).

In a nut-shell, don't tell others how they should be playing. You play the game the way you like playing, and I'll play the game the way I like to. Both "casual" play and "competitive" play are fun, it's a matter of taste.
 

JoeyJoeJoeJr

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
17
Casual: Wow this games so fun all the items make it so chaotic, and the stage hazards add some spotinaity.
Competive: How could you enjoy weapons they make it so unfair, Im going to make a flat field in stage builder. Final destination ftw.
 

fuuzball317

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
76
I don't understand how anyone can call them pro or elite, how is their a pro league when there all people on this site, who might be better than them at smash. I've never played in a tournament yet, and I'm not saying I'm the best, but I think I'm pretty good, so why are there people called elite, when there are so many players out there?
 

Tatsujinken

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I don't understand how anyone can call them pro or elite, how is their a pro league when there all people on this site, who might be better than them at smash. I've never played in a tournament yet, and I'm not saying I'm the best, but I think I'm pretty good, so why are there people called elite, when there are so many players out there?
Try participating in one of the tournaments then. These professionals have reached their high level of play through thousands of matches with people from all over. You can try bragging about how you're the best in your group of 6 friends or whatever, but until you've gone out there to prove your skill, you're nothing.
 

Yuna

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shorthop is not out, and L-canceling has been switched to R and Z (or so I heard)...
You heard wrong.

How should they interact? Well, "casuals" need to stop whining, and "elitists" need to stop being elitist.
There are very few elitists. The Casual scene just thinks there are a lot.

The game isn't fun when one person is exploiting the other, and there really is no competition, and when casuals get schooled against a "pro" that's the view they're at. The better players should teach the worse players ways to improve their game, or why things are the way they are (ex. bracket seeding, 'items' rules, etc.).
What makes you think we don't? If anyone asks me about Smash, be they a casual smasher or just a fighting game player in general (who's curious about Smash), I'll answer their questions. I'll help them improve, I'll tell them about Smashboards and the DC++ hub.

This is basically what the majority of the Competitive Gamers do. If someone asks them a question, they'll answer to the best of their knowledge. This is how the Competitive scene grows, by nurturing the young.

It's just that a lot of people don't ask. A lot of people just come onto these boards and say "Items should be on! Yaddi yaddi yadda!" and then ignore "our" counter-arguments. Then they miscontrue it as us hating Casual Gamers in general.

In a nut-shell, don't tell others how they should be playing. You play the game the way you like playing, and I'll play the game the way I like to. Both "casual" play and "competitive" play are fun, it's a matter of taste.
You see, very few Competitive Gamers have ever walked into a Casual setting and told them the right way to play the game as opposed to the many Casuals who have come onto these boards and told us we're doing it wrong.

I don't understand how anyone can call them pro or elite, how is their a pro league when there all people on this site, who might be better than them at smash. I've never played in a tournament yet, and I'm not saying I'm the best, but I tahink I'm pretty good, so why are there people called elite, when there are so many players out there?
We don't refer to ourselves as Pros or Elites (at least not most of us). That's what other people (most often the Casuals) do.

I call myself a Competitive Smasher.
 

red stone

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
889
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Nashville, Tennessee
What's wrong with seeing who's the best? I don't get why people are dissing on competition. Just think about other games out there. What if in the NBA, they suddenly decided that the players should play on mountain terrain? okay maybe that a little bit of a stretch, but how about if counterstrike had giant weapons dropping from the sky randomly? Sure some people would enjoy this, but for others, its okay to play, but not the best way to play for them.

Everyone should just play however their group decides to. quit looking at other ways of playing for choices.
 

E-Z-MONEY

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
272
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MPLS, Where Californians go to die.
There are very few elitists. The Casual scene just thinks there are a lot.
Casual scene? Doesn't that not make sense? Well I suppose even casual players talk to each other, duh, so I guess it does. But still it has to do with percents. There are a hell of a lot more casual players than pros and I'd say the scrub/elitist percent would be about equal.

What makes you think we don't? If anyone asks me about Smash, be they a casual smasher or just a fighting game player in general (who's curious about Smash), I'll answer their questions. I'll help them improve, I'll tell them about Smashboards and the DC++ hub.
That is very nice of you . . . and what is the DC+ + hub?

This is basically what the majority of the Competitive Gamers do. If someone asks them a question, they'll answer to the best of their knowledge. This is how the Competitive scene grows, by nurturing the young.
Yay! If I wasn't so lazy and if I had a ride I would have become more competitive as well because of how nice people here were to me and my ex-scrubby self. But now I have online play so I'm happy.
It's just that a lot of people don't ask. A lot of people just come onto these boards and say "Items should be on! Yaddi yaddi yadda!" and then ignore "our" counter-arguments. Then they miscontrue it as us hating Casual Gamers in general.
Ay. At least your enemies are stupid and obviously wrong. WE have to deal with the elitists who are obviously better players than us, have higher post counts than us and act like they are the authority on the game and we are playing wrong. The grass is always greener.
You see, very few Competitive Gamers have ever walked into a Casual setting and told them the right way to play the game as opposed to the many Casuals who have come onto these boards and told us we're doing it wrong.
Assuming you are talking about tournaments, you are making an unfair connection. What are elitists going to do, break into my house? If there were casual tournies I bet you a large sum of money that an elitist would come and complain about items and stage hazards.
We don't refer to ourselves as Pros or Elites (at least not most of us). That's what other people (most often the Casuals) do.

I call myself a Competitive Smasher.
Thats cool. I just say pro because I am lazy and it is easier to spell.
 

ChaosKnight

Smash Master
Joined
May 22, 2005
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if there were items on, a competitive smasher would suggest "maybe we should turn off items" and if they didnt the competitive smasher would say "all right" and just play by the rule given to him. he would also probably suggest some stages might be unfair due to the randomness but he would never *make* them change the rules. he would just suggest and if it didnt work he would just adapt, and besides what competitive smasher hasnt played with items :psycho: its not like they would lose the tourney just cause of crazy random rules hahah :psycho:
 

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
Casual scene? Doesn't that not make sense? Well I suppose even casual players talk to each other, duh, so I guess it does. But still it has to do with percents. There are a hell of a lot more casual players than pros and I'd say the scrub/elitist percent would be about equal.
That is very nice of you . . . and what is the DC+ + hub?
Yay! If I wasn't so lazy and if I had a ride I would have become more competitive as well because of how nice people here were to me and my ex-scrubby self. But now I have online play so I'm happy.
Ay. At least your enemies are stupid and obviously wrong. WE have to deal with the elitists who are obviously better players than us, have higher post counts than us and act like they are the authority on the game and we are playing wrong. The grass is always greener.
Assuming you are talking about tournaments, you are making an unfair connection. What are elitists going to do, break into my house? If there were casual tournies I bet you a large sum of money that an elitist would come and complain about items and stage hazards.
Thats cool. I just say pro because I am lazy and it is easier to spell.
Yuna posted a very reserved and reasonable post to defend his position and you seem to be ridiculing him. You aren't helping to solve the problem at all.

And competitive players don't attend casual tourneys. There's no point.
 

E-Z-MONEY

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
272
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MPLS, Where Californians go to die.
Yuna posted a very reserved and reasonable post to defend his position and you seem to be ridiculing him. You aren't helping to solve the problem at all.

And competitive players don't attend casual tourneys. There's no point.
Um most of my post either added or completely agreed with him. You guys are really defensive.

Also there aren't very many casual tourneys. That is agaisnt the entire point.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
Casual scene? Doesn't that not make sense? Well I suppose even casual players talk to each other, duh, so I guess it does. But still it has to do with percents. There are a hell of a lot more casual players than pros and I'd say the scrub/elitist percent would be about equal.
There technically is no casual scene, as casuals tend to only play with a small circle of friends, as opposed to traveling cross country to play against other people. The amount of people I have played is a staggering amount in comparison to a casual. Furthermore, I'm sure I have dumped more time into the game then the casual that occasionally busts it out for some quick fun.

These are just assumptions based off my prior existence as a casual player.

Furthermore, there are way more ****** casual noobs then arrogant competitive. I know this because the perception of arrogance between the two maps are vastly different, so what you perceive as arrogant I do not.

For example, MOST seasoned competitive player will wreck any casual. It has been historically proven over and over again. We aren't just saying it because we believe it; it is based off of past experiences. It has been historically PROVEN.

Ay. At least your enemies are stupid and obviously wrong. WE have to deal with the elitists who are obviously better players than us, have higher post counts than us and act like they are the authority on the game and we are playing wrong. The grass is always greener.
Yeah, I can see how it would be hard arguing with someone who knows what they are talking about. All of that pesky knowledge and personal experience gets in the way of your hypotheticals and assumptions based off of nothing.

There is no wrong way to play the game. Point me to a post where a competitive said you were playing it wrong, and I'll point you to 3000 noobs crying about glitches and no items. The fact of the matter is is that you casuals can make suggestions about competitive gameplay, but they are not the authority on it. This is due to a lack of experience.

It would be insane for me to tell Lebron James how to shoot a basketball or the best way to drive the hole, why do casuals come here and post things, and then get offended when we tell them it is a bad idea?

Furthermore, a small amount of lurking (i.e. reading the forums and gaining some KNOWLEDGE and INSIGHT BEFORE posting) ultimately would solve the problem of casuals making inane comments, getting flamed, and then bawwing about it.

Assuming you are talking about tournaments, you are making an unfair connection. What are elitists going to do, break into my house? If there were casual tournies I bet you a large sum of money that an elitist would come and complain about items and stage hazards.
We would complain about it, but you see, we have a good basis for the complaint (random spawning exploding ****). We would complain about it, but we would GET OVER IT. We wouldn't hold a vendetta against ALL CASUALS because one time I went to some local tournament with items and CRAZY INSANE KOOKY STAGES. I would hold a grudge against them if they were spiteful pricks, which is based off of LOGIC. I'd hate the people for being dickwads, not for being casuals.

tl;dr

Most competitive players are better and do know more about Smash than casuals (at least in the past) due to access to knowledge (SWF), and personal experience (attending tournaments). Someone competitive calling you a noob or openly mocking your suckitude is just a ********.

Hate the person for the ****ing ******* they are, not because of which camp they fall into. Categorizing people is alright as long as you do not set that persons mentality in stone until they have spoken or proven that they are, in fact, a complete douche.

It's like racism except with video games. T_T
 

Vaxxaruis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
95
Location
San Diago, SoCal
Don't use the word elitist or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.

EDIT: If you don't see the fun in competitive play, then you obviously haven't delved into it far enough. In the end, the amount of fun you get for working towards getting better at the game is worth it.

People who quoted my post and made an immature response to it are casuals in denial.

GAH it people like u that make competitive players look bad it fine if u are casual its fine if u are competitive just don't go to a tournament and try and tell people to play your way and i wont go to your house and do the same sigh...
 

E-Z-MONEY

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
272
Location
MPLS, Where Californians go to die.
There technically is no casual scene, as casuals tend to only play with a small circle of friends, as opposed to traveling cross country to play against other people. The amount of people I have played is a staggering amount in comparison to a casual. Furthermore, I'm sure I have dumped more time into the game then the casual that occasionally busts it out for some quick fun. These are just assumptions based off my prior existence as a casual player.
I will assume this is true, in which case good job.


Furthermore, there are way more ****** casual noobs then arrogant competitive. I know this because the perception of arrogance between the two maps are vastly different, so what you perceive as arrogant I do not.
Well duh. Casuals outnumber pros by a lot. However, from what I have seen on these boards and in general the balance is fairly frightening.

For example, MOST seasoned competitive player will wreck any casual. It has been historically proven over and over again. We aren't just saying it because we believe it; it is based off of past experiences. It has been historically PROVEN.
No **** sherlock.
Yeah, I can see how it would be hard arguing with someone who knows what they are talking about. All of that pesky knowledge and personal experience gets in the way of your hypotheticals and assumptions based off of nothing.
Ugh. Either you are purposely misunderstanding me or you are very dim. I said that they are better players, however they are arrogant, wrong, pricks who need to be kicked in the face/die in a fire.
There is no wrong way to play the game. Point me to a post where a competitive said you were playing it wrong, and I'll point you to 3000 noobs crying about glitches and no items. The fact of the matter is is that you casuals can make suggestions about competitive gameplay, but they are not the authority on it. This is due to a lack of experience.
You are outnumbered because there are more of us. God. Casuals outnumber pros and therefore scrubs outnumber elitists. Experience has **** to do with it. The thing is we do not give a crap whether or not you can randomly die. It has happened to me before. Three times today in fact. Honestly I'm happy none of my friends are competitive. If they were then I would have to actually restrict stages due to the brokeness of some stages.
It would be insane for me to tell Lebron James how to shoot a basketball or the best way to drive the hole, why do casuals come here and post things, and then get offended when we tell them it is a bad idea?
Agreed. Why do pros come here and post things and get offended when we tell them it is a bad idea? Stop playing the victim and the hero at the same time.
Furthermore, a small amount of lurking (i.e. reading the forums and gaining some KNOWLEDGE and INSIGHT BEFORE posting) ultimately would solve the problem of casuals making inane comments, getting flamed, and then bawwing about it.
Firstly, stop confusing scrubs with casuals. They aren't the same. Just like all pros aren't elitists we aren't all scrubby. Nextly, the items issue is not a right and wrong issue. Ever. It is about preference. Just because you dislike randomness does not make you right. Stages are slightly different as they actually do break the game in the right/wrong hands and if someone can exploit them then they can be banned in a rather right/wrong manner.

We would complain about it, but you see, we have a good basis for the complaint (random spawning exploding ****). We would complain about it, but we would GET OVER IT. We wouldn't hold a vendetta against ALL CASUALS because one time I went to some local tournament with items and CRAZY INSANE KOOKY STAGES. I would hold a grudge against them if they were spiteful pricks, which is based off of LOGIC. I'd hate the people for being dickwads, not for being casuals.
Oh please. You make the assumption that random spawnign and exploding **** are bad. They aren't. You just don't like them. Isn't it uncomfortable riding that high horse with such a heavy cross on your back?
Most competitive players are better and do know more about Smash than casuals (at least in the past) due to access to knowledge (SWF), and personal experience (attending tournaments). Someone competitive calling you a noob or openly mocking your suckitude is just a ********.
But when a casual does it they represent all of us? That's fair.
Hate the person for the ****ing ******* they are, not because of which camp they fall into. Categorizing people is alright as long as you do not set that persons mentality in stone until they have spoken or proven that they are, in fact, a complete douche.

It's like racism except with video games. T_T
Agreed, however you seem to only hold this to casuals and not pros.
 

greenblob

Smash Lord
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
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Location
SF Bay Area
Actually, randomness is bad in a competitive sense. The idea is that skill is the deciding factor.

Also, this is a competitive forum. If people come here and tell us that we're "playing the game wrong," of course we'll be offended. It's like going to the Link sub-forum and saying that Link is stupid. In fact, I don't see why it's not considered as flaming/trolling.
 

DraginHikari

Emerald Star Legacy
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Actually, randomness is bad in a competitive sense. The idea is that skill is the deciding factor.

Also, this is a competitive forum. If people come here and tell us that we're "playing the game wrong," of course we'll be offended. It's like going to the Link sub-forum and saying that Link is stupid. In fact, I don't see why it's not considered as flaming/trolling.
Really trolling is just posting for the sake of trying to draw negative attention to yourself more then anything. It's not a matter of opinion is more of the intend behind the post itself.

From what I've seen of the moderation team here and most forums in general don't tend to punish for different in opinion regardless of illogical or foolish an opinion might be.
 
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