So how then do casuals and elitist interact?

[Corin]

I have to say that I agree with Yuna. I actually haven't read the article, but I can gatherwhat it's about from reading most of the posts on this page.

If it's an advertised tournament, especially one involving money, then it really just sounds to me like they're sore about losing their cash. Anyone can show up to an advertised tournament, but do you really expect most people to show up to an advertised tournament requiring an entry fee to not have at least some skills? Personally, I would not go for a tournament with an entry fee, because I know people can trounce me. I'm not a bad player, but I'm far from amazing.

Also, sandbagging is for pansies, how else are you supposed to get any better? I got to where I am by playing and overcoming, isn't that how everyone gets better? That's how I have fun playing this game, and either way, I'm still a casual gamer. Just because I have that slapped on me doesn't mean I don't want to learn to be better.

 

[jellis186]

read the article. It isnt long

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

You know, now that I re-read that article...**** anyone with that mindset. I'm glad whoever went took all their money. Maybe they'll learn something.

 

[Yuna]

I got to where I am by playing and overcoming, isn't that how everyone gets better? That's how I have fun playing this game, and either way, I'm still a casual gamer. Just because I have that slapped on me doesn't mean I don't want to learn to be better.

And you're an amazingly good casual player for not only recognizing what you are, accepting it and the fact that there are people better than you but also for realizing that casual gamers can co-exist with competitive gamers.

I'm a competitive and a casual gamer... because I play more than just one fighting game. As such, I am a part of both worlds. I've never gone to a tournament or gathering and whined at losing in a tournament because "Some guy used some overpowered tactic".

read the article. It isnt long

I have, have you? At the end of the day, the author was a scrub before the tournament and he still is a scrub after it, despite coming to the realizing that, hey, maybe competitive gamers and casual ones can co-exist and that maybe, it's not that bad to get stomped into the ground once in a while at tournaments.

The article still makes it clear he's still a scrub who still to some degree dislikes the "Pros".

 

[Corin]

Ah don't worry about it, Yuna, he was talking to me on that one. And I did read it just now, and now I agree even more.

Honestly, it isn't difficult to figure out shorthopping. I figured that out playing against level 9 computers during the first week I got the game. Aside from that, just because someone's wavedashing doesn't mean you can't beat them. I can wavedash, but I can't do so consistently, so if I had been practicing there, at this tournament, and I had wavedashed, would they think I was some Godly player, too?

It's even just possible those students had a more organized team, some of what those guys said was kind of insulting.

"That a bunch of high school students - emissaries from the outside world - would just walk into our dorm and start playing our game was already a subtle, unacknowledged affront. Even worse, they were better than us."

imagine that, people better than you, and younger, too. It just sounds to me like this person really sore about losing money to some younger guys. Although in their defense, some melee players are real hardasses, so I can understand complaining about them if they were kicking their ***** AND ridiculing them about it. But no where does it mention that.

 

[DarkDragoon]

This article partly reflects my own school.
Sure, I'm completely in charge of everything Smash-Related, as I'm best in school.
I turn off the items, and I apply the tournament legal stages.
We still play FFAs to appease the most people possible, as we've become quite a popular after school club.
However, if I leave someone else in charge while I go make up a test, the majority rules for items to be turned on, and everything devolves into chaos.
They get better while I'm around, and then it backtracks when I leave.

They don't mind the competitive rules, and a few prefer them now, but just because they're casual means nothing, and they recognize their "not as good as competitives"-ness.

Casual Elitests Poison Peoples Minds !

-DD

 

[Tabris-]

If it's an advertised tournament, especially one involving money, then it really just sounds to me like they're sore about losing their cash.

Nobody should ever be sore about losing $20 though.

 

[Yuna]

Nobody should ever be sore about losing $20 though.

Especially when that $20 was an accumulated number. They all only paid "a few bucks" each.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

They're just mad they got beat by people they didn't know, and are now just whining about it.

 

[-sonny-]

What I hate that is that it seems people are making topics when they know the answer to their own question anyways and even know themselves that it's a stupid question. -_-

 

[jellis186]

First and foremost, Yuna, cut the "scrub" ****. We know he isn't good, its painfully obvious, but it has nothing to do with the situation presented in this article.

Its not a stupid question. Once again people are restricted to reading only whats in the article, ignoring the writing style and what the author doesnt say.

More specifically, look at the end of it. Originally he hated people who used, what he considered, glitches or exploits online. But when you see that person face to face, you realize its just another guy trying to win, and the author has no problem with that. It was a general build-up of awe/respect from anger/loathing.

Yes it was advertised on facebook, but from the way the author writes about this experience, there was the expectation that the game would be more of a casual get together with kids from around the school. So in that regards, the author ****ed up and paid the price for it. He shouldn't have done it on facebook, but it doesnt change the fact that he expected it to be a casual get together with a little cash on the line.

And of course the HS kids have every right to win that money, I'm not arguing against that. Many of you seem to think that I'm saying that the competitive players need to dumb themselves down for these casuals.

Rather, I see this as an opportunity. An opportunity for competitive players to give a show, make some new friends, or hell make some new suckers (easy cash is easy cash).

STOP ONLY LOOKING AT WHAT WAS WRITTEN, LOOK AT THE STYLE IT WAS WRITTEN IN AND WHAT WASNT SAID. That is literary analysis, and until you can do that you can not, and should not, say that the author is wrong. Because this article has absolutely no bearing on the right or wrong way to play smash.



Edit: Corin, you are completely right it seems stupid that they should fear kids who come in and are better than them. They should have no reason for that. BUT the author acknowledges that by calling his fears xenophobic (look it up in the dictionary if you dont know what it means).

 

[Yuna]

First and foremost, Yuna, cut the "scrub" ****. We know he isn't good, its painfully obvious, but it has nothing to do with the situation presented in this article.

A scrub is not the same thing as a n00b. There's nothing wrong with being a n00b. We've all been n00bs once. In fact, I'm a n00b at a lot of games.

Being a scrub means to whine about cheap tactics. Not only do scrubs refuse to use things they deem "cheap", they also whine about it when others do and consider players who use them lesser players and that they didn't really lose if the one they lost to used "cheap" things.

Its not a stupid question. Once again people are restricted to reading only whats in the article, ignoring the writing style and what the author doesnt say.

And what the writer does say makes it painfully obvious in the end, he was still mad that some good Smashers can and "ruined his fun" by bringing competitiveness to, gasp, a tournament with money involved.

More specifically, look at the end of it. Originally he hated people who used, what he considered, glitches or exploits online. But when you see that person face to face, you realize its just another guy trying to win, and the author has no problem with that. It was a general build-up of awe/respect from anger/loathing.

Yeah, but a few sentences above that, he still blamed the same players for ruining his fun. He made it one step on the way but is far from making a complete journey from Scrubville to Just N00btown and Happy About It.

Yes it was advertised on facebook, but from the way the author writes about this experience, there was the expectation that the game would be more of a casual get together with kids from around the school. So in that regards, the author ****ed up and paid the price for it. He shouldn't have done it on facebook, but it doesnt change the fact that he expected it to be a casual get together with a little cash on the line.

Do you really think the Facebook advert said "Only people who aren't good can come"?

And of course the HS kids have every right to win that money, I'm not arguing against that. Many of you seem to think that I'm saying that the competitive players need to dumb themselves down for these casuals.

The author of the article seemingly does.

Rather, I see this as an opportunity. An opportunity for competitive players to give a show, make some new friends, or hell make some new suckers (easy cash is easy cash).

Only the author and his friends are still at least partial scrubs.

STOP ONLY LOOKING AT WHAT WAS WRITTEN, LOOK AT THE STYLE IT WAS WRITTEN IN AND WHAT WASNT SAID. That is literary analysis, and until you can do that you can not, and should not, say that the author is wrong. Because this article has absolutely no bearing on the right or wrong way to play smash.

I did. He's still a scrub. He's wrong for being a scrub, not for his style of palying.

 

[Thino]

sigh this kind of thread can never be less than 5 pages

about the article : if the author wanted him and his neighborhood to have fun with ssbm why didnt he organize friendlies instead of a tournament with money at stake? he IS aware of the competitive scene so he shouldve expected competitive players to show up one of those days , and KNEW that he would get beaten so why complain about it now?

about the casual/competitive **** :
both are having fun.
both are playing with their ruleset and nobody has to judge either side.
how do they interact? well, ive never been to any tourney but I think they shouldnt interact when it comes to tourneys
a casual tourney wouldnt be fun for a competitive player unless he wants easy money
a competitive wouldnt be fun for a casual cuz he would get destroyed and lose his money

interactions should just be limited to friendlies where the competitive player show cool tricks to the casual player , and the casual player shows what he knows with items

random facts :
competitive players were once casuals too.
because of that I think you'll see more competitive players accepting to play with items than casual players accepting to play with no items.
regardless of who you can beat on wi-fi , or which techniques you use or not , fairness is far more objective than honor.

 

[Gesi1223]

Don't use the word elitist or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.

.

*facepalm*

 

[jellis186]

Yuna, you still aren't reading it. Of course he is upset about the kids showing up. It was a weekly tourney for the guys around the school for bragging rights and a bit of cash. He ****ed up by puting it on facebook. It changed the atmosphere of what once was a casual gaming session (or as he said, brining gaming to the people) into a competitive scene.

But ya know what, he doesnt let that fear or anger stick with him.

" ...one might expect a comfortable, couch-based multiplayer environment to be irrevocably tarnished by exploits. But things aren't so clean and predictable, especially when you can see an exploiter is just another person who simply wants to win more than you do."

And that is the crucial part of the article. From the way you are talking about it, Yuna, it seems as if you stopped caring about what author was saying midway through the first page.

 

[Yuna]

" ...one might expect a comfortable, couch-based multiplayer environment to be irrevocably tarnished by exploits. But things aren't so clean and predictable, especially when you can see an exploiter is just another person who simply wants to win more than you do."

And that is the crucial part of the article. From the way you are talking about it, Yuna, it seems as if you stopped caring about what author was saying midway through the first page.

You know what else he said on the 2nd page:
"In a way, those six were at fault for putting an unwarranted edge on the festivities."

He also still calls playing High Level Smash "using exploits" and competitive gamers Exploiters.

He's less of a scru now than before the tournament but he is still a scrub.

 

[Corin]

The article can be summed up pretty easily.

"College students lost to High School students due to inferior smashing skills - money was on the line. College students deemed High School students in their college, playing their game, an "affront" (which is a direct quote, and not true if this tournament was advertised)."

They could have very well left the article without their personal experience. The fact that they did so shows a slight level of bitterness. I hope this guy isn't in journalism. The first thing people tell you when you're writing articles is to leave personal experiences out of it. In a review, that's all you can write. But this should be an un-biased article on the topic, which it most certainly isn't (since any article stops being un-biased after a personal experience is mentioned).

 

[jellis186]

he also said in that same breath "But it was just as much our fault for failing to clarify the boundaries of the tournament and for giving in to our xenophobic tendencies"

What were those boundaries? Thats where we come to a misunderstanding. We all agree that those boundaries are essentially wavedashing and short hoping (though I don't quite understand the short hoping). But what we dont agree on is the context of those boundaries are implemented.

People see tourney and think that its open to everyone and everything and if its for money, all things should, in essence, be fair.

I see tourney in this context and I think a bunch of kids who dont invest more than 5 hours per month on this game, getting together for a little pocket change, some quick laughs, and a relaxed atmosphere.

So maybe that is what we should be addressing?

 

[Corin]

"But things aren't so clean and predictable, especially when you can see an exploiter is just another person who simply wants to win more than you do."

That is the kind of thinking that bothers me. That's like saying "They put an edge on it, but it was our fault too, but they're still exploiters."

It's conceding, and then contradicting.

 

[Yuna]

he also said in that same breath "But it was just as much our fault for failing to clarify the boundaries of the tournament and for giving in to our xenophobic tendencies"?

He still blames them. And he still calls them, me and my competitive friends exploiters. Which means he's still a scrub who still has a scrub mindset.

It's OK to be a casual player and not care about advanced technique. It's not OK to whine about other people choosing to use said techniques unless they're banned in competitive play (because they're "too good")!

He was a scrub, he's grown from the experience but is still a scrub. Which is still bad and should not be encouraged or defended. Smart people would've grown to the point where they stopped being scrubs.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

 

[Rampage]

All about the MUNNY

Really, if there was a tournament around here where the best wouldn't show up and it was full on n00bs I would totally go just for the cash.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Guys, I've been in Sweden. It's an amazing country that spawns just as amazing people, not the least of which is a person that goes by the screenname of Yuna.

Good ****, Yuna, I totally agree with you.

 

[Yuna]

Guys, I've been in Sweden. It's an amazing country that spawns just as amazing people, not the least of which is a person that goes by the screenname of Yuna.

Good ****, Yuna, I totally agree with you.

Thank you, thank you. It's the 2nd time today I've been declared amazing or had someone's love professed to me.

I must be doing something right :D.

 

[Zodiac]

DB Apologies

 

[Zodiac]

I swear, they think that competitive players are all obsessed with winning, when in fact we're just playing the game the way that is most fun to us, plane and simple. Also, Wavedahsing and short hopping are WAY easier than most people make them out to be, I would say that the only really hard basic advanced technique is the full shuffling spectrum, that took me a few months to use accurately and still.

All about the MUNNY

Really, if there was a tournament around here where the best wouldn't show up and it was full on n00bs I would totally go just for the cash.

Yea, anyone looking for a quick buck would, I would do it more for the practice against different styles though.

Another thing is that wavedashing itself is NOT that hard to deal with. When I encountered it I would simply dash at the wavedasher before they could finish and catch them(This was before I became a competitive player.) Its not hard to deal with. short hopping, is NOT hard to deal with, Im not sure why casual players view advanced techniques as some all powerful exploit that makes you a god among men in smash, The reality is that the mind games( in a broad sense of the term) are far more useful to me than wave dashing ever has been, and I would even sacrifice L-canceling if i had to to keep the mind games aspect.

The fact is that casual players don't have to look at a player that uses advanced techniques and be intimidated(Which is what they are when they hear someone can perform THE DREADED WAVEDASH!!!!! Or the ABOMINABLE L-CANCEL!!! and of course no one can defeat THE ALL POWERFUL SHFFL!!!) Because they are not something to be afraid of. The mind games coupled with those techniques is what is to be feared

 

[Igneous42]

Whats the point of this thread? Does it really matter what he was trying to say? I actually didn't read the article but from what I gather he was just some ignorant guy who made an article about smash. Who cares what his intentions are they seem to be wrong. I don't get why there is such a big debate going on due to this article...

 

[jellis186]

well read the article then. I've come to terms that this thread is dead, no point lets all move on with our lives.

Edit: last thing ill put up. I think the point of this article was to show how when you have casual environment where people play the game on a saturday night instead of watching their local sports team play, the get a little upset, at first, when a truly competitive edge is brought to it. But at the end of the day, they really have no problem with the guy sitting next to them on the couch.

 

[Thino]

I swear, they think that competitive players are all obsessed with winning, when in fact we're just playing the game the way that is most fun to us, plane and simple. .

and they dont notice they're obsessed with winning too. who likes losing? would they be complaining if they were winning?

 

[Zodiac]

and they dont notice they're obsessed with winning too. who likes losing? would they be complaining if they were winning?

Yup, its true, thats another point I wanted to touch on, most of this article is born out of the fact that this guy is in fact a sore loser and wants to find some measure of compensation from losing so bad in writing this article then indirectly rag on competitive players.

 

[Yuna]

Edit: last thing ill put up. I think the point of this article was to show how when you have casual environment where people play the game on a saturday night instead of watching their local sports team play, the get a little upset, at first, when a truly competitive edge is brought to it. But at the end of the day, they really have no problem with the guy sitting next to them on the couch.

Only, and you keep ignoring this, he still blames the "other Smashers" for showing up in the first place and he still calls competitive gamers "exploiters". The author and his friends were scrubs before the tournament. After the tournament, they're less scrubby.

But they're still scrubs. Stop trying to defend them. He called me and a great chunk of these boards "exploiters".

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Congratulations, Yuna. You are the new Dylan Tnga.

 

[Thino]

whats wrong with being exploiters? arent we exploiters?its just another name for competitive players I think nothing wrong about that

 

[Binx]

I consider myself a very competitive person in general, I also consider myself pretty **** good at SSBM in relation to 99% of everyone who plays it. I typically place pretty middle of the road in double elimination tournaments with other SWFers. And of course I could make excuses all day for why I don't do better at these but the simple fact is that I don't practice enough and I don't practice hard enough when I am practicing.

However I have had casual players show up to competetive tournaments, and basically if they are respectful I am respectful (even if they tell me they like playing bowser in lightning melee because then he is just as fast as everyone else*), if they don't call me a cheater I don't call them a noob. They can easily tell I am better than they are so they don't really need me telling them that too do they.

I have also shown up at plenty of casual tournaments such as game crazy and most lately a tournament for a Wii and a copy of SSBB. What people need to realize is out of the 5 million people who play and the majority of SWF suck complete balls at this game, and in relation to pro's so do I. Being able to flawlessly L cancel, wavedash and such is useless if you can't make full use of spacing and playing smart.

At these tournaments I have experienced two things pretty consistently, awe and admiration by the vast majority of the competition because they have never seen someone as fast as me and they probably aren't experienced enough to realize a wavedash isn't a simple run backwards. And sadness, mostly from the people I beat because they now realize how much better people are than them or are sad because they lost in the finals and didn't win the Wii they were so close to.

Our communities aren't that different since from my experience the majority of players don't actually use items, even non competitive players who compete with their friends turn those off, aside from the few people who come on SWF and complain about tournament rules and the few tournament players that go to an item tournament and make an *** of themselves our community is only divided by skill.

*: this has happened.

 

[KosukeKGA]

*facepalm*

Yeah, do show the other part of that post please.

 

[Yuna]

Congratulations, Yuna. You are the new Dylan Tnga.

No, you see, I've never claimed that there's a "right" way to play. I've never said that people play the game "the wrong way" (though I have on occasion argued that competitive gaming tries to limit elements of lucks and as such, we must ban certain stages and items in general).

I've never called anyone a scrub for not playing the game "my way". In fact, as opposed to the great majority of Smashboards, including many skilled players, I only use the word "scrub" in its true sense, not as some kind of b*stardization of "n00b", which the majority of competitive gamers nowaday seem to think "scrub" is an equivalent of.

A scrub is not the same as a n00b or a casual. To be a scrub is not merely to not use wavedashing, L-canceling or other advanced techniques. To be a scrub is to whine about these techniques even existing and about people using them.

It's A-Ok if you're not going to use L-canceling and Wavedashing. Who am I to tell you how to play? But who are you to tell me how I cannot play?!

To not use advanced techniques and study the game deeply is to be a casual player, something there is nothing wrong with. I'm a casual gamer of many gaming franchises, including other fighting games.

To whine about advanced techniques existing and people using them, that is to be a scrub. And that is also very, very stupid behavior that should be discouraged.

Being a Casual Gamer is A-Ok. Being a Scrub isn't.

Scrub =/= Casual gamer.

whats wrong with being exploiters? arent we exploiters?its just another name for competitive players I think nothing wrong about that

Because the word "exploiter" is a word with bad connotations. An exploiter is someone who's inherently bad or who does bad things.

To exploit something is to do something bad. As such, he's talking smack about us when he calls us exploiters, though he's at the same time trying to say that he's got new respect for us nowadays. He still considers us exploiters nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL They had to ban ED because it was too awesome. How sad.

 

[entrapment]

man....this question has been asked since the 1400's..... and it never ends pretty

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Congratulations, Yuna. You are the new Dylan Tnga.

I would like to point out that you fail.

Even though I viciously disagree with Yuna in a lot of areas, the man knows what he's talking about.

 

[Flayl]

Yuna, you missed the point of my post. I wasn't complaining about how advanced techs weren't intuitive, I was pointing out how they make melee a very different game than what most of the casuals (the ones that haven't even heard of L-canceling) are used to.