Snake vs. Marth

[Berserker.]

That's what I'm talking about.

I think we should know the moves we can duck from Marth

I know camping Marth can leave some blind spots and we can punish Marth's retreating f-airs but look what he can do to us, juggle, edgeguard, land punish and more.

 

[etecoon]

I think we should know the moves we can duck from Marth

pretty much none, his utilt can be ducked(usually used only if you can't do anything about it anyway), and it seems like ducking lets you miss his FFnair like 90% of the time but sometimes it hits. most of his important moves(grab, dash grab, dtilt, ftilt, jab, dancing blade, fair, shield breaker, all smashes) still hit you. I'm going to try ducking vs nair now that I know that, it's not guaranteed to miss but that attack's block safety has long been a thorn in my side...(as snake anyway, MK's borken OOS options FTW!)

I guess it's worth noting that his nair and bair usually miss(bair always misses) if you crouch so if you crawl cross up when he lands he can't hit you, but you wouldn't have a guaranteed hit on him either...and crawl > shield during the last moment he could fair > grab might destroy his landing options if you could keep up with his air mobility but idk, this is just some bad theorycraft I haven't tried <_<

 

[Berserker.]

U-smash isn't that hard to deal with unless your in a stage with platforms which most stages have so FD is very important. Well, U-smash is predictable once you get used to it (Seriously).

F-smash, hard...

D-smash, powershield it. The ending lag is hell slow so punish Marth.

Shield breaker, also hard. The only option you can do against it is spot dodge but you know...

other moves I didn't mention are hard but that's why there's camping

 

[6Mizu]

Discuss the Marth matchup in here.

Time for marth eyy...

Marth's advantages:
Marth can trouble Snake easily with his superior juggling ability. It's nearly unescapable since Snake's aerials are esentially usless.

The only thing Snake can do about Marth's juggling is soft throw a nade or b-reversal but Marth can string some more attacks to Snake so Snake can't do much. Another bad thing is that Marth can rush down Snake easily.

Marth doesn't really fear Snake's grenades and he can approach Snake with SH f-air/normal f-air, plus Marth's D-tilt can poke Snake's shield easily. Another thing is that Marth can
combo Snake easily due to Snake's size, weight and falling speed.

Marth can kill Snake with a tipped f-smash at around 90%. Snake's f-tilt can be easily out-ranged by a
well-spaced f-air and d-tilt.

Another obvious advantage is that Marth's aerials destroy Snake's aerials and Marth's edgeguarding game is superior and to make it easier for Marth to edgeguard Snake is that Snake's recovery is very easy to edgeguard since it leaves him vulnerable to an attack. Marth is also capable of punishing most of Snake's attacks and his landings.

Snake's advantages:
Snake obviously outcamps Marth BUT Marth has ways on getting through Snake's grenades. It's suggested for all Snakes to camp very hard against Marth.

Another advantage is that Snake has a superior ground game but it doesn't really do much since Marth out ranges Snake. Snake/s can plan strategies to make a great defense with his arsenal of projectiles that can at least put Marth away from Snake for a while which gives enough time to spam grenades behind your defense.

How to play the MU:
Avoid getting juggled too much, if you get juggled, you might as well get yourself to 50% or worse. If your getting juggled by Marth, try your best to soft throw a grenade or b-reversal
away from Marth.

As for Marth's F-air approach, you have to punish it by using dash attack but be careful on your timing. If you mess up, you might as well get punished then combo'd
or juggled.

Marth's d-tilt is gonna be very hard to deal with. There's nothing we can do with it anyway. It's very fast at the
same time it's a great shield poker. You can try rolling away
from it but you might as well get punished. Don't try jumping away Marth or he'll just follow up a f-air. Don't jump in the MU or you'll get *****. As for his gay combos, try hard to pull out a
grenade or DI out of it.

Now for his edgeguarding. Since your recovery is very easy to edgeguard, carefully mix up your recovery with b-reversals. Marth's recovery stinks so if it's
whiffed, you can try using f-smash. As for OoS, you can't really do much.

Go mix up your landing and your strategies. You don't want to try using the same thing all over again because it will start getting predictable and Marth can easily counter it. The key to winning in this match up is to have patience, mix up and camp VERY hard against Marth.

Even though Marth can rush down Snake, you have to try hard in camping no matter what. You must always be VERY SMART in this match up and play DEFENSIVELY!

Stages:
Ban:
Battlefield
Smashville

CP:
Halberd
Final Destination

Final ratio:
45:55 Marth's favor

Underload you can't be serious, why is Berk's post on the OP?
The MU ratio is definitely NOT 55:45 Marf's fav!
Or do I have to get some good marth in here to help me out here?

 

[Underload]

Not everyone has an identical opinion. Matchup threads are a compendium of opinion and observations about certain characters. So, it turns out someone has a different opinion than you. Who's to dictate that your opinion is correct and their's isn't?

I haven't seen you post anything worth a **** in this thread, anyway. So why are you complaining about what someone else honestly thinks?

 

[6Mizu]

Not everyone has an identical opinion. Matchup threads are a compendium of opinion and observations about certain characters. So, it turns out someone has a different opinion than you. Who's to dictate that your opinion is correct and their's isn't?

I haven't seen you post anything worth a **** in this thread, anyway. So why are you complaining about what someone else honestly thinks?

mmmmm.....good point.
BTW, the reason I haven't posted something....."useful" is because I don't really want to make a wall of text about something we've already talked about + I don't feel like it.

 

[etecoon]

The MU ratio is definitely NOT 55:45 Marf's fav!
Or do I have to get some good marth in here to help me out here?

don't see what you'd be trying to prove with that, the best marth thinks marth wins(bizkit mentioned this earlier and I can dig up old posts on that if you want). not that appeal to authority should ever seriously be used in this kind of thing, M2K thinks diddy beats MK/is the best character but you don't see meta knight's all taking that approach <_<

 

[Shaya]

Mizu, you dont even play Marth.

Snakes advantage is like saying,
SNAKE HAS OPTIONS AGAINST FULL HOP FAIRS ON SHIELD (EVEN WHEN POWER SHIELDED).
Read: he doesnt.

Also if Marth catches a thrown nade and instant throws it back, Snake is generally forced to remain in shield (as nade explosions on snake = hes in the air and at most percents that sets up for juggles), spot dodge will just get LOLD. Once that happens and Marth is close, I tend to think its over for Snake.
Another one of those situations Snake doesnt really have options for. He can only roll away so much.

 

[Browny]

who throws nades at marth, honestly

just drop them and roll away wooooo

 

[Berserker.]

If your talking about dropping nades near him then you'll just get punished.

 

[Browny]

lol dw im just annoying shaya

 

[Berserker.]

Ohhhh...

But seriously, serious discussion

 

[Darkshadow7827]

The occasional 4% from peggin can add up I say occasional since nades will be powershielded more often than not.

 

[Berserker.]

If it gets powershielded then take advantage of it by letting him get it then strip it (Nade strip btw)

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol marth wishes he had the advantage.

 

[Shaya]

Marth knows he has the advantage when nade explosion on snakes shield + shield breaker is a legit hit lag combo that means snakes dying at 50-60%ish?

 

[Attila_]

@djb: if you want to annoy shaya, do it properly. say something like 'snake can pivot grab marth's fair and completely shut marth's approach down'. isn't that right, shaya?

 

[Shaya]

Nah it isnt.

 

[luke_atyeo]

lol dw im just annoying shaya

dont you mean your just annoying the entire world?
ahh good old djdowny

 

[Turbo Ether]

I honestly think that Marth's ability to juggle Snake is overrated. Snake has too many landing options.

 

[luke_atyeo]

go play a good marth then

 

[Toneh]

id say marths that wear the white costume are harder than the red and green ones

 

[Berserker.]

Costumes don't really matter

 

[Turbo Ether]

go play a good marth then

Lol, you have no idea who i've played.

 

[Berserker.]

Sasori? Icon? O_o

Wow, 5 pages of discussion...

Oh more info, whenever the nade is about to be insta-thrown by Marth, strip it right away before Marth throws it.

Also, shield sparingly because you might get shield breaked my Marth's SB (If you know wha SB means)

 

[ErikG]

Berk, you can realistically react to him starting the shield breaker. The key to this match up (and more or less every match-up) is to keep yourself grounded, and force the game to go at your pace.

 

[gallax]

id say marths that wear the white costume are harder than the red and green ones

green marths are by far the best marths out there.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I wouldn't think Marths would bother to pick up a nade. No one does it since they know about the nade strip. A properly cooked nade can't be ADCT anyway. No new info is coming in. We already knew we get ***** in the air.

 

[Berserker.]

Berk, you can realistically react to him starting the shield breaker. The key to this match up (and more or less every match-up) is to keep yourself grounded, and force the game to go at your pace.

But Erik, Marth can CHARGE it and plus, SB can be used as a general surprise attack so you can't really expect it coming and to make it worse, most of Snake's attacks are kind of punishable like u-tilt, d-tilt, neutral combo, landing lag of f-air etc. so Marth will use that to his advantage.

 

[Saki-]

<.< How often do we use SB? Not really often unless you're shield happy. So if you're converting your playstyle just to avoid it we're definitely going to punish it.

Plus why charge a sb? It still breaks a shield at 80% regardless of if we charge it or not.

 

[Berserker.]

So if you're converting your playstyle just to avoid it we're definitely going to punish it.

Yup ^_^

How often do we use SB?

That's why I shield less often against Marth. I'm just telling those "shield happy" snakes to shield carefully

 

[Shaya]

Marth can grab and insta throw a nade faster than Snake can strip it.

Nade leaves snakes hand at like frame 6, hes lagging until around 25 iirc. Lol @ Just stripping it.
Remember, this is taking into consideration snake needs to pull a grenade and then shield...

Shielding against Marth isnt smart in that close proximity.
Did you just admit to OH I KNOW HOW TO STOP MARTH ****** MY SHIELD, ILL JUST SHIELD AGAIN.

 

[Berserker.]

I didn't admit that :/

I said DON'T TRY SHIELDING NEAR MARTH OR YOU DIE

 

[Shaya]

So stripping a nade you just chucked at Marth, which wasnt well cooked (and when marths close how much opportunity are you going to get to cook many nades?), before Marth is able to catch it and throw it back towards you is technically NOT TRUE.

Snake has lag throwing grenades.
Shielding and unshielding also has lag.

Stripping a grenade (which as I said its possible for the nade to already be on your head before you are even able to do this) requires shielding which results in general pain, no?

Marth wont need to try catch your nades from the other side of the stage. Strip those all you like.

As I said earlier, snake can spot dodge and roll (or jump...), but snake can only roll so much and the other two are not always effective.

 

[Bizkit047]

Uhhh, unless you're tossing nades at Marth too close, you have more than enough time to strip it before an instant thrown nade gets tossed back all the way to you. Oh, and Marth's Neutral B isn't really viable in this matchup at all. You can dodge it on reaction. If he charges it, it won't have full knockback until the end anyway, where you have all the time in the world to punish it. As long as you don't spot dodge into another shield you're good.

 

[Berserker.]

How about medium throwing a cooked nade on Marth then STRIP it.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Lol, you have no idea who i've played.

yeah that is true and it was a pretty big assumption on my behalf, however it was one I made due to waht you said, dunno if you've played good marths but I've played shaya alot, I've also played mikehaze, havok, tyrant, and probs others that I'm forgetting

point is marth is the best character in the game at juggling snake (better then mk) and thats what makes the matchup so good for marth, saying marth cant really juggle snake is basically taking away marths greatest advantage in the matchup which would make it heaps in snakes favour, as opposed to somewhere around 50:50

 

[etecoon]

after letting candy and bizkit's advice sink in and applying it, I now believe this matchup is pretty much even, not marth's favor at all. I think snake has a slight advantage typically but what could be a minor error vs any other character could cost a stock vs marth(anything that puts you off stage at a low angle = you lose a stock 90% of the time) so I go back to even on that. the thing is that there are a lot of gimmicks that you have to recognize and learn to get around, I'm now of the opinion that marth's "advantage" is something of an illusion

 

[Bizkit047]

I've learned Vs Neo in friendlies not to ever go near the edge at 0%. If you get hit off, you lose your stock like 85% of the time.

And wtf? How does Marth juggle Snake better than MK!? MK alone having a 0 to death on Snake puts him above Marth in that category.

 

[etecoon]

marth has faster air movement and more range in the air, and a larger standing grab range. MK on the other hand doesn't need to bait air dodges pretty much ever, he can just go after you and punish an air dodge anyway because his uair is ridiculous. both can KO you abnormally early by uairing you really high up but MK poses more of a threat for this

they're both pretty hard to get grounded against, I'm not sure that I'd say marth is harder and there are other characters that are pretty good at it...