Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[SpandexBullets]

remember this is mainly about experimenting for normal gameplay not about competitive gameplay, its about new ways of having fun that might lead to different ways of "standard play".

btw, the only reason I'm not implying that this could lead to competitive gameplay is to stop any beautiful greek gods from jumping down and proclaiming the uselessness of equipment and that we should all just play Project: M instead.

 

[SpandexBullets]

sorry! my stupid laptop did all that stuff! I was trying to quote one guy and it posted the same message like 4 times

 

[Balgorxz]

btw, the only reason I'm not implying that this could lead to competitive gameplay is to stop any beautiful greek gods from jumping down and proclaiming the uselessness of equipment and that we should all just play Project: M instead.

well we can all agree with that, equipments can be hype if we figure out how to make rules around it

 

[Muro]

Sure they can be competitive, with an encompassing ruleset. SLHG is a special mode though, with specific objectives in mind.

Btw can a mod fix this double posting mess?

 

[ZADD]

reiterate what your mean, item hitter? What equipment do you think would be useful, and in what way?

The reason we use the equipment of Build 2 with Heavy gravity is because:
Smooth Lander - Obvious Awesome Reasons
Moon Launcher - Slightly decreases abuse of Up-tilts, while also remedying HG's lack of upward kill power.
Item Hitter - Generic equipment that effectively balances out stat pool, and has almost no in-game effects without items.

 

[Balgorxz]

moon launcher also improves combos from moves that have diagonal knockback

 

[SpandexBullets]

moon launcher also improves combos from moves that have diagonal knockback

Unfortunately, moon launcher also boosts the attack power of upward launching moves; it increases Pikachu and fox's uncharged upsmashes to 22%, meaning the vertical moves would be entirely better than horizontal KO moves.
Although, I've actually noticed that the knockback growth of vertical kill moves is not affected by HG, meaning that vertical killers generally kill only about 10-19% later than they should.

Like I said earlier: this mode can work nigh perfectly, if only you could get your character's full jump whilst also retaining their original short hop height. Boosting the speed stat is too troublesome as you need every slot to negate the dash, walking and air speed increase, otherwise the characters become horrible disproportionate...

There is so much that equipment can offer each character in some way, and that has not been slowed down when used through this mode. I just keep hitting brick walls every time I find something new.

 

[Muro]

Unfortunately, moon launcher also boosts the attack power of upward launching moves; it increases Pikachu and fox's uncharged upsmashes to 22%, meaning the vertical moves would be entirely better than horizontal KO moves.

I just tested and pikachu's up smash did 17% with build 2, is there a sweetspot I'm not aware of?

 

[Balgorxz]

Unfortunately, moon launcher also boosts the attack power of upward launching moves; it increases Pikachu and fox's uncharged upsmashes to 22%, meaning the vertical moves would be entirely better than horizontal KO moves.
Although, I've actually noticed that the knockback growth of vertical kill moves is not affected by HG, meaning that vertical killers generally kill only about 10-19% later than they should.

Like I said earlier: this mode can work nigh perfectly, if only you could get your character's full jump whilst also retaining their original short hop height. Boosting the speed stat is too troublesome as you need every slot to negate the dash, walking and air speed increase, otherwise the characters become horrible disproportionate...

There is so much that equipment can offer each character in some way, and that has not been slowed down when used through this mode. I just keep hitting brick walls every time I find something new.

I don't think it doesn't affect the knockback, I usually never able to kill with vertical moves even when they are in 150%, horizontal knockback is more effective than ever since people can't recover as easy as before an smash attack with horizontal knockback can kill at 80% easily.
I see it more like vertical moves have increased damage but aren't KO moves and the opposite for horizontal.

 

[ZADD]

I get plenty of vertical kills in Build 2, albeit most are at ~150%. IMO Moon Launcher is essential to balancing out Heavy Gravity's quirks, it allows for aerial followups because the x1.37 Upward knockback allows for just the right amount of hitstun, while also giving players plenty of oppurtunities to tech out of combos.

Vanilla Aerials ~ Send opponents forward and up, plenty of knockback so a high chance of Airdodge and no followup (cept Hoo Hah)

Regular SL Aerials ~ Still send opponents forward and up, but with less landing lag followups are much more possible.

SLHG Aerials ~ Send opponents forward and down, if they hit the stage they are forced to tech. If they miss the tech, you get a nice juicy F-smash on them as they get up. If an opponent is knocked off stage they are sent sideways and downward, and with recoveries being nerfed in HG, most would consider the offstage to be both intimidating, as well as an area for styling on someone.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I get plenty of vertical kills in Build 2, albeit most are at ~150%. IMO Moon Launcher is essential to balancing out Heavy Gravity's quirks, it allows for aerial followups because the x1.37 Upward knockback allows for just the right amount of hitstun, while also giving players plenty of oppurtunities to tech out of combos.

Vanilla Aerials ~ Send opponents forward and up, plenty of knockback so a high chance of Airdodge and no followup (cept Hoo Hah)

Regular SL Aerials ~ Still send opponents forward and up, but with less landing lag followups are much more possible.

SLHG Aerials ~ Send opponents forward and down, if they hit the stage they are forced to tech. If they miss the tech, you get a nice juicy F-smash on them as they get up. If an opponent is knocked off stage they are sent sideways and downward, and with recoveries being nerfed in HG, most would consider the offstage to be both intimidating, as well as an area for styling on someone.

But you miss the point - upward launching moves do A LOT more damage. Up-Smash and up-air become your best moves.
I mean, do you want to be up-tilted by Mario into like 80%? OR Hoo-haa'd at 60%? Trust me when I say, vertical kill growth somehow works with HG. It doesn't do much from 0-90%, but then it comes back harder in the 120-160%. These are guaranteed kills regardless of your gravity, but because knockback has been affected so dramatically, you won't have trouble working up that %.

Still imploring everybody to find a way to have HG work, but allow characters to retain original jump and SH height.

 

[ZADD]

I mean, do you want to be up-tilted by Mario into like 80%? OR Hoo-haa'd at 60%?
Still imploring everybody to find a way to have HG work, but allow characters to retain original jump and SH height.

I dont get U-tilted into 80% really, even by my friend who mains Mario in this and every other smash game. Sure I can get up-tilted into 50-60% by Mario or Toon Link etc. if I DI poorly. At the same time I can get a grab with captain falcon and zero to death him if I'm on point. Hoo Hah is pretty essential to Diddy when everyone else in the cast ALSO has kill followups. On your note about SH height, i prefer it in heavy. Higher height is helpful in Vanilla because aerials need to be auto-cancelled, but with cancelled landing lag its pretty useless to consistently short hop ABOVE your opponent..

 

[Muro]

Has anybody tried out Ike? I've been playing around with him, I think he's pretty cool. His nair is a combo starter, as is his d-tilt, down throw and up throw. Back throw and forward throw send on a very down/horizontal trajectory, which is really bad offstage and forces a tech chase onstage. If you side b right away after back/forward throw it covers almost every option I think. Up air is a good air dodge killer in itself, but since you don't have that much lag while landing it frame traps into up tilt nicely. His recovery is not too bad, but he shouldn't really be going offstage to edgeguard, since his aerials take a long time to complete if you don't land with them. Instead he can wait onstage and charge his neutral B, since it hits well below the ledge. I've been able to hit shiek out of her sweetspot with it.
edit: also, who doens't like to rock the black knight skin?

Btw a member of my local scene decided to try it out and he discovered that with build 1 pacman can b-air the hydrant away in one hit again. With the other 2 builds you'll have to bair > ftilt, which is still better since bair doesn't have much lag.

 

[ZADD]

So I decided to use some of my video making skills to compile a combo showcase of SLHG. Enjoy and share please!

 

[Muro]

So I decided to use some of my video making skills to compile a combo showcase of SLHG. Enjoy and share please!

This one is pretty good, I can assume it's for bulid 2 right? I'm gonna put it in the OP.

Do you have PvP matches recorded?

edit: ok put it in the videos section, if you have a good pvp match I would probably replace the main video at the beginning of the OP since it's pretty old.

 

[blargh257]

I'm trying to figure out the characters I think are good. Here's a few things that have happened in build 2:
I bair-faired as Yoshi into kill thanks to his absurd airspeed. It looked like it worked but I still can't confirm anything. It was at about 58 on Greninja.
And speaking of Greninja I figured out that his grab game goes a bit like this:
Up throw goes into several up tilts and can be ended with an up smash. With no DI this does about 50-60.
Up throw up air can work sometimes. I haven't been able to get any other of his aerials to go out of up throw at higher percentages.
Furthermore the angle Greninja's down smash sends people at is hard to recover from without being baired for a lot of people.
I started fast-falling more and it's been great, Ness and Marth get much better with it.
If Diddy has a platform behind him and lands a grab it's basically 40 percent by
Dthrow->up air->up tilt->up tilt->up air-> choice aerial between up air, fair, bair

In response to the concern about vertical kills I've had no problems. For me personally the vertical kills have been much later. I can't up throw up air as Diddy for kill until about 110, and Meta Knight takes forever to kill with up B.

 

[ZADD]

This one is pretty good, I can assume it's for bulid 2 right? I'm gonna put it in the OP.

Do you have PvP matches recorded?

edit: ok put it in the videos section, if you have a good pvp match I would probably replace the main video at the beginning of the OP since it's pretty old.

I have a few PvP matches, but they are all friendlies. Im thinking of asking a few of the people in my scene to do a money match and record, most of them are familiar with SLHG.

 

[Muro]

.

I think it's safe to say these characters are top tier: shiek, pikachu, mario, falcon. I don't have much experience with other potential candidates for top tier, but those 4 characters seem really strong.

I have a few PvP matches, but they are all friendlies. Im thinking of asking a few of the people in my scene to do a money match and record, most of them are familiar with SLHG.

That would be great. But as long as you're both playing to win you don't need to money match. A small tournament would be even better but at any rate a few seriouslies would already be good. Any video content is definitely a big plus, so long as it's not a burden on you. I'm gonna share your video in my local scene so thank you for doing it.

 

[ZADD]

Heres a quick PvP match, some mistakes but hey we're not all Mew2King.

 

[Muro]

Heres a quick PvP match, some mistakes but hey we're not all Mew2King.

This is pretty great. Keep it up, this is what I hoped for when I created the thread.

Can't really speak for yoshi but you're dropping a lot of followups with pika. Sometimes instead of fast falling after an up-air try to double jump into another aerial instead. Learn the QAEC angles and their uses. Use bair for followups more, it's very easy to follow it up even at high % with quick attack. Also grab more, down/forward/up throw all have good followups. Fair combos into pretty much anything as you can see, d-tilt, f-tilt, up-smash, nair or grab are all good options.

These are only nitpicks though, as you and your friends get better so will your matches, this is pretty exciting keep them coming.

 

[blargh257]

Has anybody tried out Ike? I've been playing around with him, I think he's pretty cool.

Oh yeah.
I've noticed that his up throw has basically no knockback scaling similar to Ness's forward throw which he can use to perform a lot of links at late percentages for kills, such as up throw up air and up throw forward smash (!)
Down throw neutral air is very very good at early percentages as far as I can tell, and I was able to get another one off of it on Falcon and jab combo off of it on Pikachu.
His down throw also can go into what I like to call the "suicide sled-" down throw Aether for the spike, but I think it's one of those things that can be SDI'd. Still, I've zero-deathed with it using down throw nair into another grab.

 

[Muro]

Oh yeah.

between dtilt, up-throw, down-throw, up-tilt, nair, fair and jab it's very normal to build ~50% at the start of a stock. It's very satisfying to play with him. And the range is absurd too. I also like to up-throw to aether at higher percents.

also, @ ZADD your last video is in the category "people & blogs" lol

 

[ZADD]

I did a serious Best of 3 with my friend, he plays a "well-timed" sheik. Feel free to share or put in OP.

 

[Balgorxz]

man samus is insane in SLHG so many true combos that are useless without SLHG.

 

[Muro]

I did a serious Best of 3 with my friend, he plays a "well-timed" sheik. Feel free to share or put in OP.

Already in the OP as the first video, you're the best man.

 

[Earthboundy]

I really wanna try this out. I don't think this will become standard as much as I wish it would. I just wish Sakurai included "melee mode" or something.

 

[Muro]

I really wanna try this out. I don't think this will become standard as much as I wish it would. I just wish Sakurai included "melee mode" or something.

Doesn't have to become the standard, just has to become an option. Try to talk to other people irl see if you can get someone to play with you. Good luck.

 

[blargh257]

I did a serious Best of 3 with my friend, he plays a "well-timed" sheik. Feel free to share or put in OP.

You didn't need it and I may not be qualified to give it to you but here's my critique of both players.
Both seem to be pretty simple, just going from quicker things to smashes in the late (this is more true of the Greninja but the Sheik is also there.) I think both need to go for more grabs, especially considering how strong they are.
The Sheik's punish game is weak, and the Greninja's is good but is sometimes held back by lack of techskill or reactions. The kill combo to end the second game was great, but there's another point where he gets up throw up tilt and misses the second, failing to react for the DI and get the appropriate followup (bair.) Sheik just needs to down throw more into fairs and ftilts. Oh right, ftilts. The Sheik needs to learn to incorporate these, because they're great, they're basically just extended grabs. The Greninja has very clearly practiced specialized techs, what with the falling up airs and the hydro pump edgeguards.
Sheik's edgeguarding is going for Bouncing Fish and that's it. I think a more appropriate one would be back air for most of them, but I can't fault him for trying because the one time it works, it works really, really well.

 

[ZADD]

The Greninja has very clearly practiced specialized techs, what with the falling up airs and the hydro pump edgeguards.

Haha i barely play Greninja, I just thought it would be an exciting matchup with us on even footing (This sheik is somewhat new to sm4sh). When I play Falco or Captain Falcon I usuallly 3-stock this sheik.

I had a few questions for those of you who enjoy this mode, I'd like to have your opinions.

-In your opinion, is SLHG more competitive than Vanilla sm4sh? How specifically?
-Why is SLHG more exciting to watch?
-Is SLHG meta deeper than Vanilla, and why?

 

[Muro]

-In your opinion, is SLHG more competitive than Vanilla sm4sh? How specifically?
-Why is SLHG more exciting to watch?
-Is SLHG meta deeper than Vanilla, and why?

It's all down to preference. I like it better because there's less floatiness, faster pace, more creativity with combos (most of the times there are several possible followups) and nerfed recoveries.

Also I just discovered that mega man's alternative custom up-b is obtained through challenges... and such an easy challenge at that. It almost looks on purpose lol. I'll have to check what other customs are obtained through the challenge board.

 

[micstar615]

I pretty much agree with the above, I haven't played vanilla sm4sh ever since discovering this. It's just more offensive, and fast paced as opposed to sm4sh which is too floaty and defensive for my personal taste. Vanilla is by no means a massively slow or defensive game it just wasn't something I preferred over melee or PM. Idk if it's more competitive than vanilla, we'd need to have more of a competitive presence in the scene to gauge this, as of now not many people are aware of this mode or simply don't like the idea of equipment and HG. I def think this mode is more spectator friendly though

 

[blargh257]

Here are my opinions, responses in white.
-In your opinion, is SLHG more competitive than Vanilla sm4sh? How specifically?
Yes. It is more balanced between offense and defense and volatile.
-Why is SLHG more exciting to watch?
Combos, volatility, and edgeguarding.
-Is SLHG meta deeper than Vanilla, and why?
Yes...? My understanding of the game isn't great. I know I can get more into it because researching and doing punishes is fun, but I'm sure vanilla has a lot of depth too in places I haven't looked.

 

[Muro]

Ok let's talk megaman and the ruleset for him. You can abuse his recovery for stalling and although this doesn't even make him the best character, it's not a very good thing to watch or play (hence why we have anti-stalling rules for every game). So this is from the ruleset for brawl:

The act of stalling is banned and constitutes intentionally making the game unplayable. Examples include becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterrupted moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.

This obviously bans stalling by just getting a stock lead and Up-Bing over and over again. However we need a more specific rule to judge what is stalling and what isn't since there are many different ways his up-b can be abused.

This is the specific rule for meta knight's IDC:

Meta Knight’s infinite dimensional cape tactic is banned.

For mega man's Up-B1 I think we got 2 options:
1. We could just settle on an arbitrary X number of times you can up-b without landing on stage or grabbing the ledge.
2. We ban Up-B1 and force the use of Tornado Hold, which is really really easy to obtain without randomness and is not abuseable.

I like option 2 better, we keep in the theme of customization without randomness and solve the problem without needing judges to watch over every match with megaman. What do you guys think?

 

[Balgorxz]

options 2 seems fine to me, Tornado Hold is great in SLHG anyways

 

[kyoskue]

You know, this makes me wish that the game included a slider for increasing/decreasing speed and gravity so that we could have more finite control over it.

 

[blargh257]

I like option 2 better, we keep in the theme of customization without randomness and solve the problem without needing judges to watch over every match with megaman. What do you guys think?

I agree. I checked to see if I had this and I did, and I've attempted to perform challenges for a total of maybe 3 hours in this game. Most people should have it.

I like to play the bot to try and figure out what works. Here's some stuff I have which for lack of a better word I'm calling "demonstrations." They're escapable, and I want people to know that they are but at the same time they demonstrate that there is the right amount of volatility here for a lot of people. I remember when the original SLHG videos came out people started complaining about how the punishes were boring and too good for what they were, and I hope people like things like this a bit more. There's no sound and the quality is bad because I had these laying around and decided to do something with them. I plan to put video quality and music into a larger montage later.

 

[ZADD]

I like option 2 better, we keep in the theme of customization without randomness and solve the problem without needing judges to watch over every match with megaman. What do you guys think?

Megaman's replacement Up-B is ridiculously easy to get, just clear 1 master orders with Megaman, that's it. I've already made this change to megaman as I'v found it seriously turns off new players to have to struggle with Rush Coil so bad. Now Sonic on the other hand is a whole other ballgame for newbies...

 

[Muro]

options 2 seems fine to me, Tornado Hold is great in SLHG anyways

Yeah, it almos seems like it was done on purpose lol

You know, this makes me wish that the game included a slider for increasing/decreasing speed and gravity so that we could have more finite control over it.

I dunno, a slider would bring the same problems the KB ratio does, (like which would we use x0.5 or x0.6, etc) we have a good control over it but it's never used.

I agree. I checked to see if I had this and I did, and I've attempted to perform challenges for a total of maybe 3 hours in this game. Most people should have it.
I like to play the bot to try and figure out what works. Here's some stuff I have which for lack of a better word I'm calling "demonstrations." They're escapable, and I want people to know that they are but at the same time they demonstrate that there is the right amount of volatility here for a lot of people. I remember when the original SLHG videos came out people started complaining about how the punishes were boring and too good for what they were, and I hope people like things like this a bit more. There's no sound and the quality is bad because I had these laying around and decided to do something with them. I plan to put video quality and music into a larger montage later.

Thanks for the vid @ blargh257 , if you're planning on using these same clips again remember those replays stop being available on the 15th due to the patch. So if you're thinking about capturing them with a capture card now would be the time.

Also is luigi's d-throw to spike a true combo?

Megaman's replacement Up-B is ridiculously easy to get, just clear 1 master orders with Megaman, that's it. I've already made this change to megaman as I'v found it seriously turns off new players to have to struggle with Rush Coil so bad. Now Sonic on the other hand is a whole other ballgame for newbies...

yeah sonic has to change his playstyle a lot. He becomes a little mac kind of character, with a better recovery still lol.

 

[blargh257]

Thanks for the vid @ blargh257 , if you're planning on using these same clips again remember those replays stop being available on the 15th due to the patch. So if you're thinking about capturing them with a capture card now would be the time.

Also is luigi's d-throw to spike a true combo?

I don't own a capture card.
---
I think so.

 

[Muro]

I don't own a capture card.

Oh ok, still if you wanna use other clips you got saved remember to record them before the patch. Probably not needed, just giving a heads up.

Also pretty cool for Luigi, could be a good tool used at the edge but it's probably possible to DI to the stage and tech. How does his down B work? Is it still good?