Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[SAHunterMech]

By the way, I forgot to mention; I managed to create a build that is the closest thing to SL:HG in regular smash using equipment that everyone can get...

Smooth Lander A7/Default Brawn Badge/Default Agility Badge at 0.6x Knockback.

I'm bringing this up because I was hoping to get the SL:HG feel into the tourney scene as a side event, and the only thing barring actual SL/HG is sonic, lol

 

[Muro]

Anybody who says that SLHG combos are possible in Vanilla should take a look at Meta Knight.

Meta Knight in SLHG is good, very good.
But he is definitely beatable and spaceable, I dont feel the odds are stacked in any characters favor in SLHG.

Really? I tried playing mk and he didn't click with me. I'll try giving it another go.

Some observations while playing some more with Zelda in this mode: Zelda actually has a handful of true combos in this mode, I was able to link up throw > 2-3 utilts > UAir, this was almost a 60% combo with the standard smooth lander brawn badge and the standard defence and agility badge. Nair also has a ton of utility, both the weak hit and the stronger hit can lead to follow ups due to the decreased landing lag. DThrow can combo into sweet spotted Bair at certain percents and Dtilt, Utilt and sweetspotted Dair can also lead to varying follow ups. A few of these combos are doable in vanilla version but they felt a lot more restricted there and there weren't as many mix up options I felt, in this mode there's a lot more freedom for follow ups like in melee/PM.

Nice. I can see a lot of potential for Zelda. Dsmash sends at a great angle, and then from there she can go out and edgeguard. Her recovery is very long, she is floaty and she has a quick spike so she'll be hard to deal with offstage. If she wants to stay safe there's still din's fire.

By the way, I forgot to mention; I managed to create a build that is the closest thing to SL:HG in regular smash using equipment that everyone can get...

Smooth Lander A7/Default Brawn Badge/Default Agility Badge at 0.6x Knockback.

I'm bringing this up because I was hoping to get the SL:HG feel into the tourney scene as a side event, and the only thing barring actual SL/HG is sonic, lol

I tried your build but the feeling is really different. Thanks for experimenting though. Btw I was living to crazy percents with that setup, maybe the knockback ratio didn't need to be so low?

 

[ZADD]

Really? I tried playing mk and he didn't click with me. I'll try giving it another go.

Try: Dash attack > Uair > Uair > Uair > Dthrow > Dash > Uair > Upb

Build 2 btw

 

[Muro]

Try: Dash attack > Uair > Uair > Uair > Dthrow > Dash > Uair > Upb

Build 2 btw

Nice, I'll try it later since I'm a bit busy today.

 

[Donkeybutter]

Has anyone found any way to at least partially nullify the physics change to certain moves like Sonic/Mega Man's up b? Like maybe with a piece of equipment or special smash settings?

 

[Muro]

Has anyone found any way to at least partially nullify the physics change to certain moves like Sonic/Mega Man's up b? Like maybe with a piece of equipment or special smash settings?

hmm, I don't know of any way to do that actually. Build 3 adds a bit to jump height, so maybe try that one. If you find anything else be sure to post it

There's a video in the OP showing how to recover with mega man.

For the others, as far as I know the options are:
DHD: custom up-b.
Sonic: screwed if he needs to recover vertically.
Diddy: screwed if he needs to recover vertically.

 

[Donkeybutter]

hmm, I don't know of any way to do that actually. Build 3 adds a bit to jump height, so maybe try that one. If you find anything else be sure to post it

There's a video in the OP showing how to recover with mega man.

For the others, as far as I know the options are:
DHD: custom up-b.
Sonic: screwed if he needs to recover vertically.
Diddy: screwed if he needs to recover vertically.

Ah ok, thanks. I don't actually own the game my buddy does, but I'll try and test some over his place when I get the chance

 

[micstar615]

Has anyone found any way to at least partially nullify the physics change to certain moves like Sonic/Mega Man's up b? Like maybe with a piece of equipment or special smash settings?

Megaman has a custom up B (Beat) that works like villager's Up B iirc, it's 100x better than his standard up B in this mode, Sanic and Diddy are screwed but the physics change buff their combo/juggle game a ton so I think it's fair

@ Muro what's your preferred equipment set? I've been boosting speed (with a similar build to the 2nd one on the OP), which seems to allow for more combos but makes jumps higher, fast falling is even faster as well.

 

[Donkeybutter]

Megaman has a custom up B (Beat) that works like villager's Up B iirc, it's 100x better than his standard up B in this mode, Sanic and Diddy are screwed but the physics change buff their combo/juggle game a ton so I think it's fair

@ Muro what's your preferred equipment set? I've been boosting speed (with a similar build to the 2nd one on the OP), which seems to allow for more combos but makes jumps higher, fast falling is even faster as well.

Oh yea that's right I have heard beat solves his gravity issue. Are Sonic and Diddy the only characters who's recoveries get completely screwed, or are there others too?

 

[Muro]

.

I have the most time spent with build 2. I tried build 3 also and liked it, but I didn't spend too much time on it to be able to comment on the differences. I'll try to spend a little more time with it. Build 3 has more speed, maybe you'd like it?

Oh yea that's right I have heard beat solves his gravity issue. Are Sonic and Diddy the only characters who's recoveries get completely screwed, or are there others too?

There are characters who had bad recoveries already and suffer a bit more in HG, like ganon, little mac and doctor mario. But their recoveries aren't crippled in the way diddy's and sonic's are (even though sonic still has more horizontal recovery than someone like doc). Other than that everyone can recover fine, and most have really good recoveries, I've tested myself.

 

[micstar615]

Oh yea that's right I have heard beat solves his gravity issue. Are Sonic and Diddy the only characters who's recoveries get completely screwed, or are there others too?

Recoveries overall seem to be slightly nerfed but most are still solid, Diddy, DHD Sonic and Megaman are the only ones that got butchered, but DHD and Megaman have alternatives. I've heard DeDeDe's recovery got nerfed too but I haven't tried it yet. But yeah, from what I've seen it's mostly Diddy and Sonic.

I have the most time spent with build 2. I tried build 3 also and liked it, but I didn't spend too much time on it to be able to comment on the differences. I'll



There are characters who had bad recoveries already and suffer a bit more in HG, like ganon, little mac and doctor mario. But their recoveries aren't crippled in the way diddy's and sonic's are. Other than that everyone can recover fine, and most have really good recoveries, I've tested myself.

Whoops, yeah I meant build 3, the build that I'm playing now is closer to that one, it feels really good, much more fast paced but there are some differences for sure compared to build 2, I'm not really good at technicalities so maybe you'd be better at explaining them lol, let me know how you feel about it in comparison to build 2 after testing it.

 

[Muro]

.

From the little time I had with it, you notice a bit more running speed and stuff. It feels like the character is slipping from your control before you naturally adapt to the speed. Some moves you couldn't do before you can do now. For example, with build 2, ZSS can't do a full hop u-air followed by a n-air (hitbox doesn't come out before she lands). With build 3 that's possible. I still have to check what the implications are for edgeguarding and recovering.

 

[micstar615]

From the little time I had with it, you notice a bit more running speed and stuff. It feels like the character is slipping from your control before you naturally adapt to the speed. Some moves you couldn't do before you can do now. For example, with build 2, ZSS can't do a full hop u-air followed by a n-air (hitbox doesn't come out before she lands). With build 3 that's possible. I still have to check what the implications are for edgeguarding and recovering.

I've also noticed that while it's easier to do certain follow ups in build 3 because of the speed, certain combos you could do in build 2 are harder to do, for example I could usually link 2 utilts after an up throw with Zelda but in build 3 I could only do one :/

 

[Muro]

I've also noticed that while it's easier to do certain follow ups in build 3 because of the speed, certain combos you could do in build 2 are harder to do, for example I could usually link 2 utilts after an up throw with Zelda but in build 3 I could only do one :/

That might not be that bad, because some up tilts are a bit too good, especially against large characters. All the implications are hard to measure right now.

Also, friends, there might be hope just yet: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...aying_as_a_campy_link_on_fg/cp13137?context=3

 

[micstar615]

That might not be that bad, because some up tilts are a bit too good, expecially against large characters. All the implications are hard to measure right now.

Also, friends, there might be hope just yet: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...aying_as_a_campy_link_on_fg/cp13137?context=3

Yeah Utilts are crazy good in that build, I'm honestly not certain as to which build I prefer, they're both a lot of fun.

And I'm glad to see that GimR is showing interest! It's sad how little attention this style of play is getting.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I tried your build but the feeling is really different. Thanks for experimenting though. Btw I was living to crazy percents with that setup, maybe the knockback ratio didn't need to be so low?

It is a problem for sure. Honestly, the build I posted with guaranteed items was just not as good as my RNG one.

I have good news though... I managed to make an even better build than that, WITH Guaranteed items, even! You don't live quite as long, and combos open up sooner:

A7 Smooth Lander/Default Agility Badge at 0.7x knockback

I know that it doesn't feel exactly like SLHG, but hopefully this one will suit you better.

 

[Muro]

.

I still have to play around with MK and test build 3 better, I wont have much time to play these coming days. And I'm not very interested in normal gravity to be honest, I love the feel of HG. If that's how you enjoy it though keep going like I said in the OP this thread is not HG exclusive, so SL builds only are fine to share too.

 

[micstar615]

I've been having a BLAST playing this mode, I've literally poured hours playing this during the last week an I haven't had this much fun since launch, it's so much more fast paced! Here are my impressions on some characters
- she's still not amazing but her gameplan is more effective overall. She can approach a bit better with NAir and Dair due to their lower lag and she now has more combos which is great for a slow character like Zelda. Her lightening kicks are slightly easier to land due to the increased fast fall and air speed. Her off stage game is quite good in this build because recoveries are easier to gimp and she can go pretty far out and still make it back due to her amazing recovery.

- peach is a monster, her aerials have so much less lag and she can combo so well with ftilt and dtilt, she feels more similar to melee peach imo, she's really fun to play as, especially in the speedier equipment builds

- these two just feel a lot better, they can approach a lot easier now and Marth feels similar to his Brawl incarnation which is great, they really needed that reduced lag.

- monsters. So much more stage control with their lagless aerials and their combo game is insane

- sheik is the top tier in this build. She's a little too good imo, she controls the match with her speed, combos, lagless aerials, and great offstage game. She has very few weaknesses, she still has some trouble killing but her good offstage game makes up for it imo

- Ike feels a lot like PM ike, and he's amazing with customs. He has so many more combos now due to reduced lag on aerials.

- underwear boy is a beast in buster mode, he can combo you to high percents very easily, he's REALLY good. His weakness is definitely the poor recovery.

Are all really good too, Link and Charizard are much more effective with customs. Bowser Jr's aerial approach is very good, Jigglypuff and Kirby both have a lot of combos and stage control and Yoshi and Greninja feel really good too. Meta Knight and Mega man are VASTLY improved as well, especially Mega man.

 

[Muro]

thanks for the feedback @ micstar615 , which build did you use?

 

[micstar615]

thanks for the feedback @ micstar615 , which build did you use?

I've been playing around primarily with 2 builds: the standard one with the smooth lander brawn badge, and the standard agility and protection badge, as well as the one with the most speed! It's a lot of fun,it's just difficult to decide which one I prefer because certain characters feel better in different builds! For example Zelda is great in the speedier build because she's able to do more and needs the mobility to pull certain things off but other characters like Bowser Jr feel better in the standard SL/agility/protection badge set due to the height of the jumps being smaller, he can use his aerials closer to the ground which really helps him out! Since I'm not a competitive player but a casual player that just plays with friends/family I decided to just play around with different equipment sets for each character so they all can be balanced a bit better. However most of my playtime has been with the two aforementioned builds. It's a lot of fun! Still makes me sad that most of the community doesn't know about/isn't interested in this, I feel like it needs more exposure, a lot of people would like it if they tried it. It's crazy what a big difference SL and HG make.

 

[blargh257]

I really like this. I have been playing build 1 because if we ever want to get this thing off the ground it needs to be easily accessed, and I think the increased attack isn't overwhelming and can help heavies (who have very few combos and get combo'd very hard) keep up.
is pretty absurd sometimes. Up tilt x2 to up air is broken on heavies and fastfallers, but luckily the only two viable (imo) characters that get chewed up by it are Fox and Shulk (due to buster mode, which basically guarantees 0-100 combos.) Fortunately he's still Kirby and can be pretty lacking in some areas, so he's not broke.
plays very similar to 64 Kirby in that his up tilt is absurd. Fortunately that's only when Lucario is at 0-49, when he hits the first or second rage level the tilt is severely nerfed. Lucario's rage x2 is still very very good and I think up throw up air works (not sure) to kill at about 100.
Kirby beats him pretty bad and he can have vertical recovery problems, but side b up b works for horizontal recovery which is the main one here. He's very fun and links dash attack to up tilts, up airs to themselves, and a few other things.
<--- There is very little bad about Sheik. Her everything is safe on shield except dair which no one uses and grab can literally go to death against some characters. The only thing I can see is some issue killing, but that's just Sheik, not the new physics. Also her combo game tends to stagnate against people at or below her weight/fall speed combination.
YOOOO. Falcon feels very fun and fast, and he is devastating. Sheik Falcon and Falcon Falcon appear to be the most dynamic and fun matchups.
See above, but he's slower and gets combo'd harder. Reeeeeeeally satisfying when he goes off. I have done Stomp Dash attack Fsmash and it was glorious.
I think , , , , , , (who is balanced due to awful vertical recovery,) and are the best characters.

 

[ZADD]

- peach is a monster, her aerials have so much less lag and she can combo so well with ftilt and dtilt, she feels more similar to melee peach imo, she's really fun to play as, especially in the speedier equipment builds

Peach is my main in this mode, she is absolutely destructive. I call out "hearts n rainbows boys" when i get up-tilts into U-airs.
I play with Build 2 after messing around with the builds, it seems to have the most competitive worth. This is very important to my friend group as we consider ourselves more than casual.

 

[Muro]

@ ZADD I've played around with MK a bit more. I can see how he has potential edgeguarding. Between up-b, side-b and down-b he always has a way to make it back, provided he doesn't drop low far offstage. Still, maybe it's because I'm still a bit trying to play him like in brawl, but he didn't quite click yet. It was more enjoyable though, maybe next time.

I think lucina/marth are very good in this mode. Like, between side-b hit 1, fair, bair and up-b, they'll give you hell offstage. Also very safe on shield onstage with their range, and a gtfo up-b. I can see them being high tier.

Mario is a monster indeed. No lag whatsoever in his aerials makes him an excellent edgeguarder. Then you add FLUUD, cape and fireball...ridiculous potential. Onstage it's the same, he combos for days.

Pikachu keeps the same strengths from vanilla. Really good offstage and he'll never be gimped. He's got good followups too maybe not as good as mario.

Captain falcon is so fun, his stuff knocks you far away but he's so fast he can still get the followups. His stomp > knee is a thing, and nair combos to a lot of stuff too. I'm thinking of putting more time into him.

ZSS is very good onstage, although she has a bit of difficulty hitting her aerials on grounded characters. She's got a good recovery but I'm not sure she's a good edgeguarder because she can't drop too low.

Shiek is really good, she has great off and onstage game. Although for a character with so low landing lag, she surprisingly has long lasting moves when she doesn't land. Like, she can't do 2 of any moves out of a full hop, all of them last the whole jump.

 

[Wintropy]

While I'm not the world's biggest fan of Melee's gameplay (never got the hang of all the little details and minute executions), this is a very interesting and creative concept! I love it when people play around with the source material to create something new - I'll definitely try this out and get back to you with my thoughts.

Out of interest, where did the idea for this stem from? Just playing about and discovered through trial and error, or consciously designed to replicate a different style of game altogether?

 

[Muro]

Reducing landing lag is pretty straight forward. Heavy gravity makes it so that you can get more followups, and characters are thrown more horizontally, and also have to recover more horizontally, so they end up in positions you can edgeguard them in. I didn't think of it myself, I saw some video on youtube (same guy who made that video in the start of the OP). So he's the one who came up with it as far as I know. When I realized the potential this mode had, I looked to learn the stats of all non random equipment so I could have the best build, but couldn't find it, so I created the thread

 

[blargh257]

Having tried build 2 a bit more I think it works better because it balances vertical kills with horizontal a bit better and things don't do too much when they combo (I realized they did when I took 65% off a grab at zero with no effort with .) I hadn't really tried it because I didn't know it existed until I found this thread.
That being said the volatility doesn't go down much, the only occasional issue with killing is some verticals, like 's up air.
EDIT:
I figured I'd add a few other observations.
Many characters link their up tilts to themselves, which you probably know. The best up tilts belong to:
, , .
is better than . This is because he has more combos due to the heavy gravity and kills via about seven different moves.
is fun and effective but very technically challenging. I'm still trying to figure out how his combo game works. (So far I have nair -> dtilt, fair -> dtilt, dtilt-> dash attack, up throw -> up air and I think back air.) Dair edgeguarding is difficult and not worth the risk in an actual game but if you can get it off in a casual environment it's hilarious.
The character that resists the most combos is which makes her very good in addition to her bettered fundamentals. I think pound -> rest works but I'm not sure, it doesn't look safe but it goes off.

 

[Muro]

@ blargh257 I have to try those up tilts since people have been complaining about it. However CPU9s always seem to be able to DI down and shield at low %, or just DI out at high %. Have to test it with another person.

Ok a few more thoughts on Build 3. It offers more followups horizontally due to the speed increase. For example for falcon, you can do a down throw > stomp at certain %. Also, while the jump height seems increased, it seems like the double jump height is not increased. It also gets rid of an annoyance of mine, when playing MK or pikachu (maybe it's a small character thing), which is when running offstage, more often than not those characters will almost instantly grab the ledge. I go around it by always doing an aerial or air dodge right after running off in build 2, but build 3 actually does away with it.

I'll continue using build 2 unless I specifically want to test stuff in other builds. But really I like them all, and I don't think going from one to another is a big deal.

 

[ZADD]

is fun and effective but very technically challenging. I'm still trying to figure out how his combo game works. (So far I have nair -> dtilt, fair -> dtilt, dtilt-> dash attack, up throw -> up air and I think back air.) Dair edgeguarding is difficult and not worth the risk in an actual game but if you can get it off in a casual environment it's hilarious.

Use Uair with fastfall to combo, doing this actually makes him top-tier, Shiek as well

 

[Muro]

Just discovered G&W down smash can hit shiek out of her upb when she snaps to the ledge. Just roll to the edge and face center stage and time the down smash right. His down smash's sour spot will hit her and it sends at a horizontal angle which is great in SLHG. Also, if it works with shiek, It probably works with a ton of other characters.

edit: I think this title is better since not everyone will know what SLHG means without clicking first.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I tried your build but the feeling is really different. Thanks for experimenting though. Btw I was living to crazy percents with that setup, maybe the knockback ratio didn't need to be so low?

Well, I'm back. I've tried a slightly different direction: SL and Glider. It's way more insane than my previous stuff. The combos felt more similar to SLHG too.

As for the percentage, I forgot to mention, it's kind of relative. Strictly speaking, yes, it's possible to live up to 200% or more if you have enough skill, and it feels more relaxed than HG, but with the two factors of boosted damage and combos opening up as a whole, you reach higher percentages much, much faster, especially with Glider turned on; It's a shame that it isn't a challenge reward. In any case, matches in general are still quicker overall than vanilla.

If I had to be honest, I would say that recovery is better than ever, but so is aggressive play. I like to think of Heavy Gravity as pulling opponents closer to the attacker, whereas Glider pushes the attacker closer to the opponent, so it felt pretty similar to me. The main thing I remember being able to do in HG was a Ken combo, and it wasn't until I turned on Glider that I was able to do it once more.

 

[B!squick]

*looks at favorite character*

Hmm... I think I'll pass on this, thanks.

 

[Muro]

*looks at favorite character*

Hmm... I think I'll pass on this, thanks.

pass on it if you want, but bowser's recovery is good even for HG, he's not affected in the least. His big problem is that he's combo food, but he was before anyway.

 

[L9999]

Overview on the cast
A mix of 64 and Melee Jiggs. Higher gravity means she can gimp more than regular Smash 4. Also, Rest combos.
Smash 64 Samus. She gains nothing from this mode as she loses recovery and her aerials suck. The only thing she has is Isai Dair combos but they are techable.
Even if his recovery is nerfed he has a better air game. He can use Fair, Uair and, Nair without getting punished hard and also combo with his ground moves. With higger gravity his tilts combo more and lead to KO Punch.
While he doesn't have roofio kills he now has juggles and with lagless aerials and speed he can be untouchable. Recovery is garbage though.
Trades the Boss combos with other set of combos. High gravity make his aerial movement less awkward.
Complete beast with Buster mode and a nightmare with Smash. Recovery sucks though.
Melee Sheik that can't kill reliably unless she goes out to gimp.
Improved Melee DK. Except recovery.
With L Cancelling back he is way better than regular Mario. Even if his recovery sucks.
Nothing big here except a better Dair and better followups.
Melee Fox with no short hop laser. Shine is slightly more useful.
Can do Ken combo and combo to Shoryuken. Except for a recovery that is garbage unless you use Up B 2 (Beat) SLHG MM is in every way superior to regular MM.
Combo master along with gimp power.
ZELDA CAN COMBO! Better air game and throw game in general.
Get BizzaroFlame. Recovery is garbage without customs.
Brawl Marth which is not a bad thing. Give him/her Dashing Assault and you have a high tier. Lucina is legit.
Aside from Knee's nyeh lag this is Melee Falcon with some 64 stuff.
Infinitely better air game. Recovery sucks.
Way better. Give him some custom moves and he is a beast.
Brawl Meta Knight with nyeh kill moves and worse jumps.
Project M Kirby with Smash 4 moveset.
Project M Charizard with Smash 4 moveset.
Oh my, he has a legit air game and grab game. Recovery is complete garbage without Up B 2.
: Project M Pit with Smash 4 moveset.
: Juggles to the death.
: Mostly the same.
: Improved throw game and air game with nyeh recovery.
: Close to Melee Peach.
: Ike can combo oh my!
: HAHA. He can no longer hoo-hah and his recovery is GARBAGE. Still good with combos.
: Feels like a hybrid of N64 Link and P:M Link. Recovery sadly nerfed.
: Young Link from Melee came back with kill power.
: Hey, DDD is actually good.
: Trades his Smash 4 gimmicks for better gimmicks and useful aerials.
: P:M Lucario with Smash 4 moveset and gimmicks.
: DAIR AND U-TILT HAVE USE OH MY! Aerial beast with lots of killpower.
: Some new gimmicks that come with a nyeh gimpable recovery and getting comboed to death by Ness, Mario, Sheik and basically everybody.
: No real changes while still being a beast of destruction.
: aMsA's Yoshi came back stronger and deadlier. Recovery sucks really hard.
: Better followups along with custom moves make her a strong machine of destruction.
: Sheik clone with a sucky grab.
: If his air game wasn't a nightmare already Killager has an even deadlier air game. Along with a good recovery he is a gimp master.
: Smae ol' tactician except that he/she has better aerials and combo ability.
: Beast of the stage with nyeh recovery.
: A 100 times better character with L Cancel and followups.
: Kinda broken. Recovery is total garbage though.
: Same boat as Samus. Better than the original one though.
: Smash 64 Link. Slightly better than the original but still a nyeh character.
EDIT: Forgot Rosaluma: Rosalina is still top tier and now she has air game. But she is slightly easier to kill.

 

[micstar615]

Nice overview @ L9999 I agree with a lot of what you said! Every character feels a lot funner imo. So you'd say Samus is the only one who might not have transferred over well from vanilla? Even with her customs? She feels a lot better than vanilla imo but that could just be my preference for the SLHG engine speaking.

 

[B!squick]

@ L9999 , I'd love to know in what way Bowser is better.

 

[L9999]

@ L9999 , I'd love to know in what way Bowser is better.

With less laggy aerials he can follow them up with a tilt or Smash an deal a lot of damage. This also helps edgeguarding, even though Fire Breath is a safer way. Plus, being kinda fast with aerials that are really strong with generous lag and constant threads of getting the shield broken (Smashes, D-B, Whirling Fortress) is why I think Bowser is better. And sure, he is huge and can get comboe'd but that's the problem with all the heavy characters (especially ROB) and fast fallers. And if you say Bowser sucks in Smash 4 just watch Gimpyfish and DJ Nintendo playing Bowser in Melee, where he "totally sucks."

Nice overview @ L9999 I agree with a lot of what you said! Every character feels a lot funner imo. So you'd say Samus is the only one who might not have transferred over well from vanilla? Even with her customs? She feels a lot better than vanilla imo but that could just be my preference for the SLHG engine speaking.

Well Screw Attack sucks because it only goes vertically. In a game where spikes offstage are not punished by mechanics and where you fall really fast. Grapple Beam has to be in range to be used. Being floaty is nice for not getting wrecked hard though. She can still play mindgames with Charge Shot Numero 2, Missiles Numero 2 and the Slip Bombs. She can be good, maybe Melee Samus, but she still misses her old Nair and Missile cancel.

 

[L9999]

EDOIT: Excuse the double post I didn't paid attention.

 

[B!squick]

Well, Bowser is worse in Smash 4, maybe even worse than Melee Bowser, at least in some respects. I'd take Brawl Bowser over Smash 4 Bowser any day of the week. Smash 4 just happens to be less polarizing and more balanced overall. But that's besides the point.

Anyway, I'd have to see it for myself, but I have my doubts that Bowser's aerials can be followed up with Tilts simply because there's less landing lag. NAir being the exception. And I know you're pulling my leg if you expect me to believe Bowser can follow up with Smash attacks in this environment.

If it was possible to test this by myself I'd be tempted to try it.

EDIT: And everyone else having an even easier time comboing Bowser probably makes him way worse, not better. Not to mention that he'll have a much harder time recovering even if you somehow couldn't combo him at all, much less even more.

 

[L9999]

Well, Bowser is worse in Smash 4, maybe even worse than Melee Bowser, at least in some respects. I'd take Brawl Bowser over Smash 4 Bowser any day of the week. Smash 4 just happens to be less polarizing and more balanced overall. But that's besides the point.

Anyway, I'd have to see it for myself, but I have my doubts that Bowser's aerials can be followed up with Tilts simply because there's less landing lag. NAir being the exception. And I know you're pulling my leg if you expect me to believe Bowser can follow up with Smash attacks in this environment.

If it was possible to test this by myself I'd be tempted to try it.

Let's just say Bowser it's not either top tier or garbage tier.

 

[B!squick]

Let's just say Bowser it's not either top tier or garbage tier.

I thought he was way better?