Scar
#HarveyDent
Yes, definitely, instead he has a 25% chance of getting his one good stage out of the remaining 4, so 3 times out of every 4 he won't, so you are helping DK players a whopping 1 out of every 4 sets they play.
/sarcasm
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SMASHPOCALYPSE:: SPOC IX in February? Link to SPOC VIII results in OP
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
/sarcasm
pockyD
Smash Legend
not-top characters get hurt because they are simply bad characters and are being exposed for being such
if you're a character that is hoping for a 20% chance of having a chance to win game 1, then the odds were against you to begin with
rules shouldn't be made to prop up bad characters. you can't say sheik isn't allowed to chain grab bowser, but it's fine in sheik dittos
if you're a character that is hoping for a 20% chance of having a chance to win game 1, then the odds were against you to begin with
rules shouldn't be made to prop up bad characters. you can't say sheik isn't allowed to chain grab bowser, but it's fine in sheik dittos
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
tru tru i like that too. kevin was on the money wit da plan anyways.I agree, not top characters get hurt badly by stage striking.
I LOVE this idea though I think you should be able to ban on R1. I mean....what bans are being re-allocated game 2 if you can only use a rest R1?
this gets confusing sometimes. you guys ever think that you're over thinking it? Heres an example of a method the japanese guilty gear guys do their stage stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TkWxxEhtY
why make the odds worse tho? they already suck *** in general why make their odds of winning worse
DK1337hax actually took you to YS and ***** your face off
Why should the outcome of a match like that be based off a 1/4 chance of getting that miracle stage? So many competitive smash rules are designed to minimize the randomness of the outcome, so why do we allow the stage for game 1 to be dictated by a randomizer when there is a reasonable alternative?
pockyD
Smash Legend
how is it making them worse? they are already that bad. it just takes away the random 1/5 chance that they win a match they shouldn't
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
20% is better than 0%
also its not a 1/5 chance that they win the match. its a 1/5 chance that they get the stage.
lets assume these values for the sake of my point:
-any neutral but FD and DL64 give DK a 3-7 vs fox.
-FD and DL64 give DK a 4-6 vs fox.
the odds of winning arent 1/5. The 1/5 is the chance that DK will have a better chance at winning. Taking it away makes no sense if hes already ***** up the butt. Its not like im saying:
-any neutral but FD and DL64 give DK a 3-7 vs fox.
-FD and DL64 give DK a 7-3 vs fox.
this case would be ridiculous and then imploying velocities rule maybe be more viable
P.S scar
to an economist every percent counts! Its not the quantity of the value its the quality. in this case, the quality is:
go up in odds or go down in odds
There has been and will be so much melee played that these seemingly feeble percents will occur/probably have occured in the long run.(i.e Bum getting the random vs ISAI in NY). you cannot simply say/suggest that a percent change doesn't matter in the context of smash
bottom line:
If I main DK, I want the best odds possible for me to get a stage that will strengthen my odds of winning the pivotal game 1. If I play ALOT of smash then the odds of me winning the 1/5 stage selection will act in my favor at some point. Giving me a DK player the odds of 0 of winning the stage selection is overkill. I already have bad odds vs most characters on all the nuetrals, your not giving me a fighting chance.
pockyD
Smash Legend
operating under the assumption that the 6 neutral stages are, in fact, the 6 most neutral stages in smash in some order or another, the fact that character/player B only has a chance 1/3 of the time suggest that character/player B is inferior, and shouldn't be provided such a chance when, in a theoretical perfectly even stage, we would expect them to get *****
say, peach/marth, which is (i believe) marth's edge on every stage except dreamland, whereas it's peach's edge on dreamland
assuming that those 6 stages are the 'fairest' stages, then being better on 5/6 of them to me means he should naturally have an advantage in the matchup, stage independent, and giving him a 16% chance of not having the advantage he should naturally have is stupid when on a theoretical neutral stage, he would have a legitimate advantage
it still boils down to you wanting to prop up bad characters instead of accepting that they are bad
say, peach/marth, which is (i believe) marth's edge on every stage except dreamland, whereas it's peach's edge on dreamland
assuming that those 6 stages are the 'fairest' stages, then being better on 5/6 of them to me means he should naturally have an advantage in the matchup, stage independent, and giving him a 16% chance of not having the advantage he should naturally have is stupid when on a theoretical neutral stage, he would have a legitimate advantage
it still boils down to you wanting to prop up bad characters instead of accepting that they are bad
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
People against FoD
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5740241&postcount=2620
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5740260&postcount=2621
People for FoD
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5740478&postcount=2627
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741449&postcount=2639
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741634&postcount=2643
People for YS
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5740842&postcount=2632
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741634&postcount=2643
M2K against YS
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5740478&postcount=2627
Swiftbass against BF
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741525&postcount=2640
People for BF
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741607&postcount=2641
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741634&postcount=2643
People against FD
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741631&postcount=2642
Mogwai against PS
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5741607&postcount=2641
See this? Depending solely on who the tournament host is, the neutrals would be altered due to their personal bias with this rule. Whether it's adding a stage or removing one.
I'm not reading this because based on the first ten words, it isn't worth my time
Those are random events that have a large effect on the match. Most people including myself believe that random events shouldn't have a large effect on a stage that is a "neutral."
It's not just Bowser. That's why you should actually read what people post instead of saying "I'm not reading this, but based on the first sentence"
#1 - Those stages aren't miracles, they just help.
#2 - It's a random stage picked out of a number of fair stages.
#3 - Not all randomness is inherently unfair. If a bunch of people get last in their pool, the only one won't be fighting M2K R1 is the person who got last in his pool. ONE of the others is going to and there is no "fair" way to decide. imo, the same applies with the neutrals. There is no "fair" way to decide. This "reasonable alternative" is biased by whoever the tournament host is and by the characters that the players play.
And there is a random 4/5 chance that the better character will win a match they shouldn't. Why should your ruleset cater to 4/5 instead of just keeping the ruleset which is fair.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
what are we assuming here? that game 1 players get to ban a neutral? is this where the 1/5 is showing up?
thank you spam.
EDIT:
im seeing 1/5 as the default under the current rules(stage ban game 1).
and velocities rule makes it 0/5
how is that propping up(assuming 1/5 is under the default ruleset that most of us follow now PLZ correct me if im wrong about the 1/5 with the default rules)
pockyD
Smash Legend
right, and i have REPEATEDLY mentioned that I believe the actual stage pool doesn't matter in the long run, so long as more than half the stages are "reasonable"
It turns out I was right in what I assumed you said, wasn't I?I'm not reading this because based on the first ten words, it isn't worth my time
And given that a "neutral" stage should lack random elements, then the neutral stage itself should not be chosen at random if possible. Imagine if, after each death, the stage randomly transformed into one of the other 5 neutrals. The random transformation would affect the result, depending on which one it turns into.
Actually scratch that, that would be insanely cool and I would be in love with it
if you use narrow examples, why can't i use narrow examples?
i made an assumption about your block of text based on the first sentence, and i was right in my assumption. what does it matter whether i actually read it or not?
Why is this not fair?
once again, let's say an arbitrary list of 5 stages are the 5 "most fair" stages for the matchup. It stands to reason that either...
1) they are all equally fair, so it doesn't matter which one is played. Not only is this pretty clearly not true, but if the stages are stricken/struck (scar tell me which one is right), it would still produce an optimally fair stage, since any of the stages is optimal
2) they are varying degrees of fairness. along a continuum, they favor player/character A over player/character B in some order 1 2 3 4 5, and obviously vice versa (player B over player A in order 5 4 3 2 1)
What would be the goal? Obviously, the goal would be to take the average of the 5 stages and play on that, but that is clearly impossible (besides the awesome morphing stage idea). The next best thing, in my opinion, is the median.
With the status quo, assuming there were 5 starter stages, each player would ban 1 and 5 (respectively) anyway, which leaves 2, 3, and 4. For some reason or another, most of us accept that this is a solid and beneficial system (not that this is a wrong assumption, just that we have different reasons for accepting it, but in the end, we agree). If trimming the outliers and producing a smaller set theoretically is better, why is taking that extra step and trimming off yet another outlier suddenly clearly unfair?
As far as pools seeding, there IS a fair way to decide... let the 1 seed (M2k) pick his opponent out of that set of last place finishers, then let the 2nd seed pick his, etc. this isn't done simply because it largely doesn't matter and, more importantly, is logistically non-viable.
my other argument was that the assumption that the current ruleset is "fair" is something that needs to be dropped (or at least questioned) before being able to discuss alternate rulesets. Since you haven't dropped this assumption yet, it's no wonder that you aren't at least considering alternatives
It's just in the context of 5 "neutral" stages, no game 1 bans (because since we decided to put a stage in the neutral set, it's obviously fair enough that we don't need to stop it from being played at all, right?)
my other argument was that the assumption that the current ruleset is "fair" is something that needs to be dropped (or at least questioned) before being able to discuss alternate rulesets. Since you haven't dropped this assumption yet, it's no wonder that you aren't at least considering alternatives
There are a million things that I would love to tell you that you're blatantly wrong about spam, but I really don't feel like wasting the time arguing with you (ultimately, you're never going to change your opinion and I'm not going to change mine), so I'm just gonna limit it to one quote:
Where I come from, the person with the 4/5 chance of winning (EDIT: Pocky cleared this up) is the one who SHOULD win the match (the odds are heavily in his favor), so there is no way that you can say that the better character is winning a match that they SHOULDN'T
Velocity
Smash Lord
I don't think that the striking till one remains is necessary, just think it would be a good idea.
Guess you should learn how to win on more then one stage then.
Wesley makes a good point too
Edit: this is where I stop caring cause people are typing to many words I don't want to read all this crap.
Guess you should learn how to win on more then one stage then.
Wesley makes a good point too
Edit: this is where I stop caring cause people are typing to many words I don't want to read all this crap.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
dont like stadium, don't mind fod
pockyD
Smash Legend
tim give me my 30 minutes back
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
gj kevin
sry i didnt wanna play ur game. I thought it was dumb so I gave you my opinion. I mean you takin your ball and leaving was a bytch move. But I guess I sholdve expect that after you typed like 3 times as much as me only to coarse me into ur game of logic.
what ur opinion on _____?
then it wouldve been more efficicent. but of course u try to fit a whole convo into AIM
how bout to pull me to side and stuff next time we meet instead of playing settlers or somethin.........
sry i didnt wanna play ur game. I thought it was dumb so I gave you my opinion. I mean you takin your ball and leaving was a bytch move. But I guess I sholdve expect that after you typed like 3 times as much as me only to coarse me into ur game of logic.
if u asked
what ur opinion on _____?
then it wouldve been more efficicent. but of course u try to fit a whole convo into AIM
how bout to pull me to side and stuff next time we meet instead of playing settlers or somethin.........
pockyD
Smash Legend
you weren't playing my game... you were playing some non-game
you ask me to define some parameters for a completely theoretical question, then you tell me those parameters are invalid because of blah blah blah
i took my ball and left because you were trying to see how many forks you could stab it with before it deflated
edit: the reason i won't try to explain this to you in real life is because in my experience, you can't have a serious conversation without degenerating into regurgitating internet memes and quoting background voices in random smash videos, so it's simply too frustrating for me
you ask me to define some parameters for a completely theoretical question, then you tell me those parameters are invalid because of blah blah blah
i took my ball and left because you were trying to see how many forks you could stab it with before it deflated
edit: the reason i won't try to explain this to you in real life is because in my experience, you can't have a serious conversation without degenerating into regurgitating internet memes and quoting background voices in random smash videos, so it's simply too frustrating for me
Scar
#HarveyDent
@ Pocky, either struck or stricken is fine, I would say struck though.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
your dumb.
I think your logic is dumb how you say the word "fair" and the statement "true advantage" and not expect me to argue.
why would I bring forks to a bastketball game
I think your logic is dumb how you say the word "fair" and the statement "true advantage" and not expect me to argue.
why would I bring forks to a bastketball game
pockyD
Smash Legend
my dumb indeed
and i have no idea, maybe you're the blue rajah
and i have no idea, maybe you're the blue rajah
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
I am no longer revealing pockyD posts and anyone who quotes him will be ignored to preserve my sanity
pockyD
Smash Legend
are you also covering your ears and 'lalala'-ing the night away
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i never cover my ears
Mew2King
King of the Mews
DK beats fox at least 7-3 on FD, 6-4 on DL64, 6-4 on poke stad, 4-6 on BF, idk the other stages
if anyone disagrees with the DK vs fox on FD then MM me 50 dollars all FD
if anyone disagrees with the DK vs fox on FD then MM me 50 dollars all FD
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Do you mean he beats Fox 6-4?
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
Scar
#HarveyDent
No, I think he means he loses to Fox 6-4, i.e. 4-6 DKDo you mean he beats Fox 6-4?
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
fifty dollars.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Alukard I'll probably be doing Blue Lazer lol Scar + Pakman 4 lyfe
UltimaScout
Smash Lord
Idk your interest level, but I may end up needing a partner for this.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Let's get the hype for this up!
Check out the trailer for I KILLED MUFASA III !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8gevyb4F8c
Check out the trailer for I KILLED MUFASA III !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8gevyb4F8c
phish-it
Smash Champion
Oh ****. I want to make the same offer to any fox players (except you M2K) but 5 bucks instead.
Also Scar you might want to make another topic for this in Tournament Listings for the circuit so it'll gain more attention. The Huger the tournament the better!
Cia
das kwl
Mew2king - just Use dk on Jman in your next tournament.
oh and I'll probably take your mm too. not for $50.00 tho <_<
oh and I'll probably take your mm too. not for $50.00 tho <_<
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Bam come quick, M2K wants to give you $50.
<3 <3 <3
I wish I could come to this tournament.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
nah, that would be the intelligent, logical thing to do. You know, like pick Sheik when you say she's the best character in the game, something M2K rarely does?