Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[SheerMadness]

L/Z-Canceling is easily the most important technique in both ssb64 and melee. Not being able to shffle or l-cancel aerials is going to be ********.

EXAMPLE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Will Ganondorf even be playable without L-Canceling?

I honestly don't think this game can be very competitive without it.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

¿ o rlmente ?

 

[Killer Tree]

What you don't realise is when they removed L canceling, they also shortened the reaction times to moves.


You will notice this especially when you watch Link do his down smash in the air

 

[ArgentStew]

Did you have to make a new thread for this? There is a search function, and several other threads with people complaining about the lack of L-canceling... :/

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Who knows? Their may be another canceling method, similar to the one we discovered during E For All.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I thought these type of threads were gone now... this fad ended last year, now the fad is to make threads telling people to stop being disappointed in the roster.

Besides, I have heard that the game is faster in the sense that L-canceling is not as "necessary" as it was in Melee. At the same time maybe the game will have a more defensive feel, at least on some of the characters.

 

[kook321]

You why L-canceling was taken out. It was to level out the playing field. Melee was getting to competitive so noobs had no chance, now there is a less of a gap.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

is this melee or 64 no. there will be new techniques and people need to aacept that the old ones are out as a result of the new physics system

 

[Bozen]

You should stop complaining about it and adapt. It is not going to make the game any more or less fun. It will just change how people play it.

 

[PyrasTerran]

You should stop complaining about it and adapt. It is not going to make the game any more or less fun. It will just change how people play it.

Quoted for the gospel truth.

Are competitive players so afraid of fighting without their advanced techniques that they actually think new players will be able to beat them on even footing now just because they don't have them??

Because that is the attitude that most who are upset seem to give off. Like their superiority is somehow compromised by this.

Luckily many competitive players have the right idea: Great players will still kick the ***** of new players regardless.

 

[SuperLink9]

'k.

Some people do not agree, but 'k. Your opinions are taken on board.

Brawl will be one of the best games ever, and you won't be complaining when you start playing it every day for the next 6 years ;D

 

[kobefox2485]

are there any new techniques?? because without l cancel and no wavedash, there has to be a new ADVANCED technique, not like the new air dodge.

 

[JaimeHR]

I'm sure Brawl will have some other tricks that "PROs" will eventually discover and exploit, it's just matter of time for the "n00bs" to (once again) stand no chance against the average competitive player. I actually see some potential advanced techs with the new Air Dodge.

 

[NF Alex]

Don't stereotype competitive players. Only a complete ****** would think the lack of one advanced technique will completely ruin the game for everyone.

And this is ignoring the fact that Brawl will have plenty of new techniques.

 

[RicanThunder]

you can still play melee and 64 they will always be good games. just suck it up. its a new game so some new techs could be used

 

[SargeAK47]

is this melee or 64 no. there will be new techniques and people need to accept that the old ones are out as a result of the new physics system

I couldn't agree more.. even the back of the box now sports the Havok physics logo.
sad to see some things go (l canceling) but on the bright side im happy to feel what it was to discover something new(you know how everyone figured out l canceling back in the n64 days)
There are tons of things to unravel and enjoy. So im not ticked off at all. Trust me Brawl is a true fan service to the genres followers. This game will be good regardless and even with our small gripes (some missing stages or character if you will) this will still rock.
People its time to exploit the new engine.

 

[Bozen]

are there any new techniques?? because without l cancel and no wavedash, there has to be a new ADVANCED technique, not like the new air dodge.

Inkdropping is the only one that I can think of currently. But I am sure new expliots of the physics engine will be found in time.

 

[Hitzel]

Quoted for the gospel truth.

Are competitive players so afraid of fighting without their advanced techniques that they actually think new players will be able to beat them on even footing now just because they don't have them??

Because that is the attitude that most who are upset seem to give off. Like their superiority is somehow compromised by this.

Luckily many competitive players have the right idea: Great players will still kick the ***** of new players regardless.

It's more that competitive players fear the game won't be FUN to take seriously if it's dumbed down. 95% of the Halo 1 and 2 pros hate Halo 3 with a passion, but they're still the best at the new game. Brawl *could* turn out the same way if Sakurai removes all the depth from behind the scenes. Competitive players inherently understand that, and it's what they fear.

 

[S2]

The game won't suck. You just have to accept TC, that this isn't Melee. Its going to play different. It'll look the same, but play different.

Complaining won't change that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is Aimed towards the casuals/stereotypers:

Sure, there is the possibility that we may discover a wide plethora of techniques, but that is still no excuse to why we sholud ignore the blatant opt for simplicity this game is trying to represent. My advice would be to actually go to tournaments and be an active participant in the tournament community before you try to stereotype and assume said position. It may not be a problem for you, but don't attempt to be optimistic by viewing this situation in a position that you have little to no experience in.

 

[Gerkuman]

I've spent my whole life playing without L-Canceling, and I never thought it sucked. Too much hyperbole mister :F Besides, as far as I'm concerned the lack of it will let me focus on actually learning to get good at the actual fighting :D

 

[omfgomfg]

johnny please no

 

[Bozen]

It's more that competitive players fear the game won't be FUN to take seriously if it's dumbed down. 95% of the Halo 1 and 2 pros hate Halo 3 with a passion, but they're still the best at the new game. Brawl *could* turn out the same way if Sakurai removes all the depth from behind the scenes. Competitive players inherently understand that, and it's what they fear.

In my opinion Sakurai is enough in touch with the Smash community to know what we want and don't want. If Brawl does turn out to suck for the same reason that Halo 3 was disliked by the competetive scene there is nothing that says that we can't just keep playing Melee just as they have done in many cases with Halo.

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

Yeah seriously quit b*tching about it. Don't worry I'll still kick your sorry butt without it.

 

[Hitzel]

In my opinion Sakurai is enough in touch with the Smash community to know what we want and don't want. If Brawl does turn out to suck for the same reason that Halo 3 was disliked by the competetive scene there is nothing that says that we can't just keep playing Melee just as they have done in many cases with Halo.

I don't find that answer to be relieving..

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

I don't find that answer to be relieving..

Yeah. I don't want to go back and play that game, and I won't.

 

[Bozen]

I don't find that answer to be relieving..

To be honest, I am a little worried about the game as well. But you have to remember that Sakurai did what he would have thought to be best to make the game as much fun as possible for everyone not just the competitive scene. You can't go around expecting everything from the roster right down to the physics to be perfect for every single person that plays the game, but a happy middle ground for everyone. This isn't Melee and it doesn't claim to be so things are going to be different. As I said if they competitive scene is ruined in Brawl we have Melee. I for sure will go right back to playing Melee if I don't like playing other people competitively in Brawl.

 

[Bozen]

Yeah. I don't want to go back and play that game, and I won't.

Did you not enjoy playing Melee? If you didn't like Melee why on Earth are you going to get Brawl? What was so horrible about Melee that you wouldn't go back to playing it and enjoying it?

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think it'll be as big a deal as many people think it will be.

1. L-cancels didn't really add that much depth since anyone decent can L-cancel without a problem.
2. Aerials lag less in Brawl from what we've seen.
3. Good spacing is still a viable way to avoid sheidgrabs.
4. L-cancels didn't really prevent shield grabs anyway, unless you were Fox/Falco/Falcon.

Also, removing adv techs doesn't make the game any easier for noobs to be good at. If anything, it probably makes it harder. In Melee you could make up for being a really dumb player by being extremely technical. If Brawl isn't as technical, you can't do that, and you have to be smart to be good.

 

[Demon Kirby]

These threads aren't gone yet? The idiots still roam freely?

 

[LordLocke]

L-canceling was a ******** barrier that basically drew a big, fat line across the casual players and the competitive gamers. We got three players in my core group that uses L-canceling and one who doesn't. Guess who's usually fourth in FFA? Guess who refuses to play 1v1 anymore? Yes, L-canceling basically saved Melee at the competitive level, but dear god, it would have been a thousand times better if it wasn't a technique we needed in the first place. It's like Snaking in Mario Kart 64- yes, it helps the game out from a competitive angle due to other flaws in the game, but I'd really rather not have to execute this asinine technique repeatedly every match I play just to land above the fodder line and still have the game be good from a high-level viewpoint.

And, lo and behold, the Brawl team apparently agreed.

Landing lag seems to have been reduced greatly across the board in Brawl- enough so that it doesn't look like shieldgrabbing is going to be the GGPO of the Brawl air game. Some attacks are still going to be laggy as heck, but the trick is, when you know your opponent's hunting for shieldgrab, you don't use them.

Is this going to last? We'll see. Maybe L-canceling's absence will be a fatal flaw in the end for high-level gameplay. But it's definite they're at least trying to make the game work without requiring it, and that's far better then continuing to rely on a glitch to make the game worthwhile.

 

[Card]

L/Z-Canceling is easily the most important technique in both ssb64 and melee. Not being able to shffle or l-cancel aerials is going to be ********.

I honestly don't think this game can be very competitive without it.

Haven't you heard? Baseless accusations and assumptions about a game before even getting the chance to play it is totally the cool thing to do nowadays.

 

[Kirby Redux]

i did like L-canceling, but i never really got the hang of using it all the time, so i cant really complain. Of course, wave-dashing isnt there either now, but im sure theres something new as there should be.

Also, with the new online play, this will completely level out the playing field, making new players more welcome to the online experience and not being beaten every single time they try a 1v1 over their connection.

 

[Killer Tree]

It's more that competitive players fear the game won't be FUN to take seriously if it's dumbed down. 95% of the Halo 1 and 2 pros hate Halo 3 with a passion, but they're still the best at the new game. Brawl *could* turn out the same way if Sakurai removes all the depth from behind the scenes. Competitive players inherently understand that, and it's what they fear.

Um no. Halo 3 is WAY less dumbed down than Halo 2.


Sniping is REALLY hard. WAY harder than either Halo 1 or 2.

Also most Halo pros LIKE halo 3.

 

[PyrasTerran]

It's more that competitive players fear the game won't be FUN to take seriously if it's dumbed down. 95% of the Halo 1 and 2 pros hate Halo 3 with a passion, but they're still the best at the new game. Brawl *could* turn out the same way if Sakurai removes all the depth from behind the scenes. Competitive players inherently understand that, and it's what they fear.

But, what's been dumbed down??

-Characters have less lag time..
-Heavy characters have boosted stats and armor when attacking..
-Top tier characters have been balanced and low tier characters have been improved..
-Gliding has been introduced..
-There are now more ways to grab the ledge..
-1 character has to switch movesets every 2 minutes..
-1 character has to pluck plants to even perform smash attacks..
-Getting Final Smashes, unlike regular items, actually takes skill and strategy..
-Items, like the Dragoon, have become more complicated..
Summons perform more complicated tasks, like Devil and Manaphy..
-New techniques like footstool jump, crawling and wall-clinging have been introduced..
-More characters can wall-jump..
-To the above two points, not EVERY character can crawl/wall-cling/wall-jump..
-1 character can't use her final smash without changing movesets..
-1 character needs to let time pass by before one of his special attacks does any damage..
-More heavy characters have good recovery(Charizard, DeDeDe)..
-Shielding cannot be spammed due to increased speed of withering..
-Most-to-all clones have been Luigified..
-The variety of character speeds is greater..
-At least 32 unique movesets available..

If anything the game has become MORE complex..!!

Are wave-dashing and L-cancelling so fundamentally important to the game of Smash that they outweigh every new addition to the gameplay that's been added??

For the loss of 2 advanced techniques we've gained a plethora of new abilities that can/will open the gates to many more NEW techniques..

Or is it just because now ANYONE has the advantage of less lag and such that competitive players are upset? Why is a move that was not intended to be available, like wave-dashing and L-cancelling, more special than moves that ARE supposed to be in the game?

 

[CAPTAIN BUTTS]

Haha, cry some more.

 

[suzuki brawl]

"Heavy characters have boosted stats and armor when attacking"
it's not all of then and i'm sure they will be easy shild grabed

 

[Bozen]

L-canceling was a ******** barrier that basically drew a big, fat line across the casual players and the competitive gamers. We got three players in my core group that uses L-canceling and one who doesn't. Guess who's usually fourth in FFA? Guess who refuses to play 1v1 anymore? Yes, L-canceling basically saved Melee at the competitive level, but dear god, it would have been a thousand times better if it wasn't a technique we needed in the first place. It's like Snaking in Mario Kart 64- yes, it helps the game out from a competitive angle due to other flaws in the game, but I'd really rather not have to execute this asinine technique repeatedly every match I play just to land above the fodder line and still have the game be good from a high-level viewpoint.

And, lo and behold, the Brawl team apparently agreed.

Landing lag seems to have been reduced greatly across the board in Brawl- enough so that it doesn't look like shieldgrabbing is going to be the GGPO of the Brawl air game. Some attacks are still going to be laggy as heck, but the trick is, when you know your opponent's hunting for shieldgrab, you don't use them.

Is this going to last? We'll see. Maybe L-canceling's absence will be a fatal flaw in the end for high-level gameplay. But it's definite they're at least trying to make the game work without requiring it, and that's far better then continuing to rely on a glitch to make the game worthwhile.

I would agree with nearly everything you said here. I really hate having to constantly use a glitch to even be close to competitive. The absents of L-canceling should not have that much of an effect on the gameplay. I'm not saying that it wont, but it seems unlikely that it would completely ruin the game.

Haha, cry some more.

The adults are having a discussion here go play with your toys.

 

[Blu-ninja]

But, what's been dumbed down??

-Characters have less lag time..
-Heavy characters have boosted stats and armor when attacking..
-Top tier characters have been balanced and low tier characters have been improved..
-Gliding has been introduced..
-There are now more ways to grab the ledge..
-1 character has to switch movesets every 2 minutes..
-1 character has to pluck plants to even perform smash attacks..
-Getting Final Smashes, unlike regular items, actually takes skill and strategy..
-Items, like the Dragoon, have become more complicated..
Summons perform more complicated tasks, like Devil and Manaphy..
-New techniques like footstool jump, crawling and wall-clinging have been introduced..
-More characters can wall-jump..
-To the above two points, not EVERY character can crawl/wall-cling/wall-jump..
-1 character can't use her final smash without changing movesets..
-1 character needs to let time pass by before one of his special attacks does any damage..
-More heavy characters have good recovery(Charizard, DeDeDe)..
-Shielding cannot be spammed due to increased speed of withering..
-Most-to-all clones have been Luigified..
-The variety of character speeds is greater..
-At least 32 unique movesets available..

If anything the game has become MORE complex..!!

Are wave-dashing and L-cancelling so fundamentally important to the game of Smash that they outweigh every new addition to the gameplay that's been added??

For the loss of 2 advanced techniques we've gained a plethora of new abilities that can/will open the gates to many more NEW techniques..

Or is it just because now ANYONE has the advantage of less lag and such that competitive players are upset? Why is a move that was not intended to be available, like wave-dashing and L-cancelling, more special than moves that ARE supposed to be in the game?

thank you.

and id like to add how now brawl can function as a regular fighting franchise withought the abusement of glitches withing the game.

although the glitches were un-deniably fun.

 

[Airgemini]

I thought the people said at EFA that when you land during an attacks most of the lag is canceled anyways?