Smash Ultimate Leak Discussion Thread

[Fenriraga]

Yeah do NOT take that Phoenix bit to heart. That was purely from an anon making a new thread. Has nothing to do with the Ken leak.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I'm quite aware. Everyone seems ready to point this out to me. But I already know all Verge can do for us is report on the information he's given. I am not trying to 100% discredit Verge here. I am simply stating since his information can sometimes be wrong, he himself can sometimes be wrong as well.

I am trying to dispel the myth that Vergeben has never been wrong about Smash related info before.

People ignore the initial Gamefaqs "leak" because Vergeben himself trashed it well before E3 could disprove it in his big Smash leaks thread, explained it was a bad source and he has gotten legitimate sources to give him actual info, which said sources have proven their legitimacy and have not been wrong about anything (other than one source mistaking Isabelle for an Echo). As such it's long irrelevant to Vergeben's Smash credibility now, if anything it helped his credibility, as he was able to determine which sources were legitimate and bet his cred on before the game was unveiled.

Alright then!


Time for my own personal theory about how this all adds up, and ties to Vergeben!
View attachment 166042


The Ken leak today was found out to be at a timezone of GMT +2, which puts it squarely in Europe, mostly Germany.

DasVergeben is a German name, which may imply that he himself is of German origin, which there's reason to believe that his sources could very well be Nintendo of Germany employees.

View attachment 166043


So then, why is his information incomplete? We know he didn't leak K.Rool and a whole bunch of Echo fighters.


View attachment 166044


My theory is simple, your honor!


The Ken leak has been determined to be from a build that was old and outdated, meaning that at the time, said characters didn't even exist!


View attachment 166045


King K.Rool is the only non-echo fighter that we know got in due to Ballot demand alone, and Echo fighters are more or less easy to add, last minute additions! Is it not possible that, regardless of numbering, K.Rool wasn't on the original project plan at all, and Ken was the only listed Echo fighter at the time?


If Ken is the "Grandfather of Echo Fighters", it makes perfect sense that he'd be the very first Echo added to the game.

This sounds really shoddy, adding a unique newcomer mid-development is an arduous task; remember they take over a year to make and Sonic in Brawl is the only non-clone to have ever been added to a Smash roster mid-development, while just his addition was able to delay the game. And it only happened because of very special circumstances that frankly won't be repeated ever again, with Sonic being originally planned yet denied by Sega, while Sakurai put him in when Sega changed their mind later on because of how huge a deal Sonic was and how massively requested he was, while DLC also wasn't possible on the Wii, thus adding Sonic mid-development to Brawl was a now or never situation; in the age of DLC Sakurai won't be put into such a situation again, making it even more infeasible that he would add a non-clone newcomer mid-development when he could just wait until DLC. Occam's Razor here is that Vergeben's sources simply just didn't find out about K. Rool before he was revealed, and we already know Vergeben's leaking is a gradual process (it took a few months after his pre-E3 Smash leaks to get information about a pokemon newcomer, and then another two months after that to lock it down to Incineroar), and it's not unusual at all for leaks to miss characters or not get them in time; Gematsu didn't leak Rosalina, Robin, Bowser Jr, and Duck Hunt, even though they were all characters on the project plan and were very much not late additions, while the various Brawl leaks had separate pieces of the roster and not the whole thing. And it's not like there's a good reason to believe K. Rool wouldn't be on the project plan; the Ballot finished over a month before the project plan was devised and thus the data was all there hot out of the oven for Sakurai to reference for roster selection.

Additionally using knowing about Ken as evidence that K. Rool is a late addition is farther shoddy, when Vergeben found out about Ken weeks after K. Rool's reveal; if K. Rool wasn't revealed on August 8th, who knows if Vergeben would have found out about Ken before K. Rool.

 

[Z25]

One thing that’s interesting is that if true, Steve gets in over banjo. Which is surprising. I wonder what would lead to that choice.

 

[Shroob]

One thing that’s interesting is that if true, Steve gets in over banjo. Which is surprising. I wonder what would lead to that choice.

My own personal opinion but, Minecraft's bloody massive and basically an icon of gaming at this point.



........that and, having Steve in the base roster means that people that want B+K would be more than willing to pay if they were DLC.

 

[Luigi The President]

One thing that’s interesting is that if true, Steve gets in over banjo. Which is surprising. I wonder what would lead to that choice.

No. Not necessarily.

Vergeben does not know all. He proved this with K. Rool.
We could see both.

 

[Deleted member]

One thing that’s interesting is that if true, Steve gets in over banjo. Which is surprising. I wonder what would lead to that choice.

The fact that one of them is one of the biggest franchises in gaming history and the other had two N64 games with moderate popularity before falling into Microsoft's hands.

 

[eltacoenojado]

Grateful to have this thread. Leaks fascinate me. Even the super fake ones.

 

[Shroob]

At this point, I feel like the best course of action is to get Verg's opinion on the image.

I am 100% sure that he's seen it by now, but we haven't heard his opinion.


While I'm sure it's somehow tied to his source and he won't say much, a simple "Yes" or "No" would go a long way to close the book on this.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is a TAS, but I think it can highlight how Ryu and Ken are similar yet different too. Watch their animations and how they posture, and their different moves with their more basic attacks

I loved that. The confirm into hadouken > shin shoryu had to be max range lol

 

[FooltheFlames]

People ignore the initial Gamefaqs "leak" because Vergeben himself trashed it well before E3 could disprove it in his big Smash leaks thread, explained it was a bad source and he has gotten legitimate sources to give him actual info, which said sources have proven their legitimacy and have not been wrong about anything (other than one source mistaking Isabelle for an Echo). As such it's long irrelevant to Vergeben's Smash credibility now, if anything it helped his credibility, as he was able to determine which sources were legitimate and bet his cred on before the game was unveiled.

That's very impressive info.
I was not aware of this since I only follow him on Gamefaqs. Reddit can be confusing to keep track of for me, so I thank you for bringing this up to my attention. UwU

 

[Deoxys911]

For those who would like to see Stanley playable in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, I have good news!

Spoiler

He pretty much already is!

If it's any consolation, Balloon Fighter fans know how you feel.
(Technically the design of his fumigator is from the game Greenhouse, but in that game the character only shoots upward, whereas in the G&W version of DK3 Stanley shoots directly to the side like this, likely explaining why this move doesn't change his appearance to be more faithful to the original game like many of his others do now since this one doesn't exactly correlate to any games.)

 

[RC-3197]

One thing that’s interesting is that if true, Steve gets in over banjo. Which is surprising. I wonder what would lead to that choice.

I'm pretty sure we have vastly underestimated Steve's chances due to our small sample size with our polls. I think Steve would be really successful with the younger demographic. During 2015 there was an endless supply of middle schoolers and elementary schoolers obsessed with minecraft and I can only assume what that would do to the smash ballot.

I also think Steve's inclusion would open the door to further negotiations with Microsoft. Steve's inclusion would make Banjo & Kazooie have a better chance of getting in than ever before.

 

[Z25]

My own personal opinion but, Minecraft's bloody massive and basically an icon of gaming at this point.



........that and, having Steve in the base roster means that people that want B+K would be more than willing to pay if they were DLC.

This would actually make the most sense.

Sure Minecraft is iconic but it never had a big push for smash playability unlike banjo

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm debating whether or not I should even stay around this thread. But I do think the Ken image seems real, what with every potential debunk making it stronger like a Dragon Ball villain.

But I'm also a bit biased as Ken would be a pretty cool Echo in my opinion. Though I'd personally prefer Akuma since he's more over the top in his moves.

I'd also really like an Echo for Mega Man but I don't know if that's happening or not so I'm not getting my hopes up too high for that one.

 

[S_B]

The one issue I'm starting to see with Steve is that Minecraft wasn't released for the Wii U until Dec. 17th of 2015 (http://minecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Minecraft:_Wii_U_Edition).

When was the poll finalized and when was the roster likely to be finalized? I've heard that the final roster had to have been decided before the end of 2015 though I'm not certain. How popular could Steve have been at that point, given that this was he first time MC would be on a Nintendo console (as far as I can tell, anyway)?

From the article, we could absolutely see that Minecraft went on to become quite popular in Japan, but it would've been basically unknown during 2015 (at least to Nintendo fans specifically).

 

[Shroob]

The one issue I'm starting to see with Steve is that Minecraft wasn't released for the Wii U until Dec. 17th of 2015 (http://minecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Minecraft:_Wii_U_Edition).

When was the poll finalized and when was the roster likely to be finalized? I've heard that the final roster had to have been decided before the end of 2015 though I'm not certain. How popular could Steve have been at that point, given that this was he first time MC would be on a Nintendo console (as far as I can tell, anyway)?

I mean, Simon basically was non-existent on the polls.


Maybe Sakurai just added him because? I really don't think 'every' character being added is going to be due to fan demand alone.


Though it's also possible that kids could have voted en masse and we just never knew. I don't think Minecraft's recent 'being on a Nintendo console' would matter regardless.

 

[S_B]

I mean, Simon basically was non-existent on the polls.


Maybe Sakurai just added him because? I really don't think 'every' character being added is going to be due to fan demand alone.


Though it's also possible that kids could have voted en masse and we just never knew. I don't think Minecraft's recent 'being on a Nintendo console' would matter regardless.

Simon was a classic character with a longstanding history on Nintendo platforms, though.

I know that not every character needs to fit that criteria, but did MC sell particularly well in Japan on PC prior to its release on the Wii U? I'm just not seeing MC as being on Sakurai's radar to the point where he would've made a deal with Microsoft to include him in mid-2015...

Also, the timing of the alleged prima leak seems suspect. Yes, it goes along with what other reliable leakers have been saying, but it's not too much of a stretch for someone to remember that the prima guides are usually printed a few months before the game's release and act accordingly.

 

[Shroob]

Simon was a classic character with a longstanding history on Nintendo platforms, though.

I know that not every character needs to fit that criteria, but did MC sell particularly well in Japan on PC prior to its release on the Wii U? I'm just not seeing MC as being on Sakurai's radar to the point where he would've made a deal with Microsoft to include him in mid-2015...

Also, the timing of the alleged prima leak seems suspect. Yes, it goes along with what other reliable leakers have been saying, but it's not too much of a stretch for someone to remember that the prima guides are usually printed a few months before the game's release and act accordingly.

Prima leak is most likely very fake, most of us deem it as so, so discussion on Steve is due to Vergeben, not Prima.


As for Minecraft's PC sales? No idea, but it, from what we can tell, was hot on the WiiU and continues to be on the Switch. It's ****ing huge in Japan, to the point that Sakurai himself has been playing it.



Regardless, by 2015, Minecraft was a bit of a worldwide phenomenon in the gaming scene.


Steve isn't my first choice for a Microsoft rep, but I could totally see it happening.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Prima leak is most likely very fake, most of us deem it as so, so discussion on Steve is due to Vergeben, not Prima.


As for Minecraft's PC sales? No idea, but it, from what we can tell, was hot on the WiiU and continues to be on the Switch. It's ****ing huge in Japan, to the point that Sakurai himself has been playing it.



Regardless, by 2015, Minecraft was a bit of a worldwide phenomenon in the gaming scene.


Steve isn't my first choice for a Microsoft rep, but I could totally see it happening.

Minecraft was probably more popular in 2015 than it is now. That was the time when Minecraft Youtubers were at their absolute height, and nearly everyone was still playing Minecraft. Then it took a hit in popularity, but has been rising back up thanks to Microsoft's efforts.

 

[Johnknight1]

Simon like Mega Man is a Nintendo character, just straight up. They might not be owned by Nintendo, but when you think of classic Nintendo console games and series, you will always hear Castlevania and Mega Man (and X) brought up.

Also even if the Ken leak is fake, who cares? Ken's in the game either way. It's similar to the Palutena leak for Smash 3DS, only this "leaked" image doesn't look as flawed of a character design (though I hope this is fake because I would want Ken's hair to look better... but it may just be the lower resolution). It also is very very very hard to prove fake... because no one can do it yet... which is amazing.

 

[Shroob]

I still think the next plan of attack is to get Vergeben's opinion on the image.


If this actually is from one of his sources, while he probably won't outright admit it, having him say "Yeah" or "Nah" would definitely help solidify this image's validity, IMO of course.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

If he's DLC, they are probably trying to quantify Banjo's popularity (to gauge interest in a possible new game) and at the same time make more profitable DLC (they may think that Smash fans are more likely to pay for Banjo than they will Steve).

 

[Wyoming]

Dsmn it anon on 4chan don't play with my heart with Phoenix. Why not use a more obvious character to troll with?

 

[Johnknight1]

I hope we get a Smash mini-direct or something in a few weeks, because the leaks are starting to pour thru. It's about time Sakurai begins to fully spill the beans. Would expect the entire base game roster (plus maybe a DLC character) confirmed by November 20th.

Minecraft was probably more popular in 2015 than it is now. That was the time when Minecraft Youtubers were at their absolute height, and nearly everyone was still playing Minecraft. Then it took a hit in popularity, but has been rising back up thanks to Microsoft's efforts.

I would compare the Minecraft boom to the Counter-Strike and World of Warcraft boom; once it hit, gaming was never the same... and said IP doesn't really ever go away (though in Warcraft's case, it was big before World of Warcraft but became unmistakably huge afterwards).

I guess Halo might be at that level and Call of Duty is. Although the thing about all these IP's is:
1. World of Warcraft/Warcraft in general has zero connection to Nintendo. Thrall is a huge character yes (who would fit easily into Smash), but like... the Blizzard character that's hotter at the moment is Tracer (the face of Overwatch)... who would probably stand out more in Smash TBH.
2. Counter-Strike also lacks the "Nintendo connection," except no "main character." Also, no real moveset basis.
3. Call of Duty is the same as Counter-Strike, except it has a "Nintendo connection." But again, no central character, but more moveset basis TBH.
4. Halo has Master Chief who would be insanely easy to put in Smash (note: The Arbiter is in Killer Instinct) moveset-wise but kind of doesn't fit Nintendo. Would be a "dream situation" for sure, but doesn't have a "Nintendo connection" other than being a "rival character" like Sonic (which some day may be enough).

Minecraft Steve sort of trumps all of these. Nintendo connection, iconic central character, easy moveset. These other options have 1 or 2 out of 3, but Minecraft and Minecraft Steve have all 3.

Not saying we are getting Minecraft Steve but there's a lot of logic behind it.

I do think Banjo might happen first because Sakurai and some of the other veteran Smash devs have wanted to put Banjo in Smash for nearly 2 decades or sat on ideas they had then that were never fulfilled.

 

[Shroob]

Goddamnit, I know as soon as I go to bed, Incineroar or something's gonna drop.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Is it ok to discuss general Ken stuff in here or does it fall into that as well?

As long as it pertains to the leak, then sure.

They really just cut the discussion in half? Now thats how you kill a thread.(exaggerating obviously but main point stands)

And massive amounts of spam/trolling/flaming/off-topic is what killed the previous leak thread for Smash 4. We want to prevent that this time.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

1. World of Warcraft/Warcraft in general has zero connection to Nintendo. Thrall is a huge character yes (who would fit easily into Smash), but like... the Blizzard character that's hotter at the moment is Tracer (the face of Overwatch)... who would probably stand out more in Smash TBH.

If Overwatch comes to the Switch suspiciously soon, I think that Tracer DLC is a distinct possibility, which is kind of weird to think about.

 

[Thinkaman]

There's a difference between just being part of a successful game series, and being Sonic or Cloud.

People keep throwing around every joe blow with a successful series. Lara Croft? Tracer? Kratos? Doom guy? Minecraft Steve?

This is a game of Nintendo characters, even if that means irrelevant has-beens like cartoon crocodiles from 20 years ago. All the third party characters are super iconic with significant, deep ties to Nintendo that exceed that of other platforms.

Cloud is the exception that proves the rule. And sure, fine, any video game character as iconic and generation-defining as Cloud Strife can cut in line. There's only one guy on that list, and he's out because shotguns and Warthogs aren't a fit for Smash.

Lloyd and Rayman are a stretch, but at least plausible and have some history with Smash. Random people with no unique Nintendo connection? Better hope for a PSASBR reboot.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Calling all my Incineroar supporters out here. This Ken leak is définitely real and only makes Vergeben stronger. We're gonna get our amazing wrestler mon. God I can't wait for him to be leaked or revealed.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm betting Vergeben's sources have second-hand, probably even third-hand information, rather than them seeing the characters personally. I think the leaks would've been more detailed than just a couple of names (and the false assumption of Isabelle being an echo). So I don't think Verge can confirm the Ken leak, anyway, though I won't deny his sources might've seen this earlier than us.

 

[Shroob]

I'm betting Vergeben's sources have second-hand, probably even third-hand information, rather than them seeing the characters personally. I think the leaks would've been more detailed than just a couple of names (and the false assumption of Isabelle being an echo). So I don't think Verge can confirm the Ken leak, anyway, though I won't deny his sources might've seen this earlier than us.

I'm not 100% positive about that Isabelle part to be honest.


Like, literally every reaction video I've watched made the exact same mistake of "She's an echo fighter!" until she pulls the fishing rod out. The fact that his source apparently 'mistook' her as one more or less lines up with what a good chunk of people did seeing her for the first time.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm not 100% positive about that Isabelle part to be honest.


Like, literally every reaction video I've watched made the exact same mistake of "She's an echo fighter!" until she pulls the fishing rod out. The fact that his source apparently 'mistook' her as one more or less lines up with what a good chunk of people did seeing her for the first time.

The main thing for me about it though, it was one source, the others didn't know. (or didn't choose to share for whatever reason) So either that source made an assumption on their part, that particular (false) info got passed down to them, or they themselves saw her.

 

[Shroob]

There's a difference between just being part of a successful game series, and being Sonic or Cloud.

People keep throwing around every joe blow with a successful series. Lara Croft? Tracer? Kratos? Doom guy? Minecraft Steve?

This is a game of Nintendo characters, even if that means irrelevant has-beens like cartoon crocodiles from 20 years ago. All the third party characters are super iconic with significant, deep ties to Nintendo that exceed that of other platforms.

Cloud is the exception that proves the rule. And sure, fine, any video game character as iconic and generation-defining as Cloud Strife can cut in line. There's only one guy on that list, and he's out because shotguns and Warthogs aren't a fit for Smash.

Lloyd and Rayman are a stretch, but at least plausible and have some history with Smash. Random people with no unique Nintendo connection? Better hope for a PSASBR reboot.

I don't even want Steve, but this kind of reeks of personal bias.

Especially when you mention the "generation defining" aspect of it, because Minecraft more or less 'was' a generation for a younger audience. Just because you didn't grow up with it doesn't mean it didn't define a generation of kids growing up.


And to add to that, Minecraft's done something for Nintendo that's frankly ground breaking for them as a company.


Cross-platform play.


Nintendo has basically existed in their own little bubble since, basically forever while the outside world(Other competitors) grew in the online scene. The fact that Microsoft and Nintendo worked together on this is, frankly shocking and amazing since Nintendo would never do this ten or so years ago. If Nintendo and Microsoft of all companies can keep a friendly and healthy relationship, imagine what could come from this.


If Minecraft allowing Nintendo and Microsoft to work together isn't 'deep' enough ties that arguably should be called historic for the company, then I don't know what is.

 

[xzx]

Well, seems like Sora is going to be a character in Ultimate...

 

[7982Brick]

Well, seems like Sora is going to be a character in Ultimate...

How do you know?

 

[xzx]

How do you know?

Found this information through SmashWiki: https://webcache.googleusercontent....1042898567159996416+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Shroob]

Found this information through SmashWiki: https://webcache.googleusercontent....1042898567159996416+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

That's pretty old at this point. It 'probably' doesn't mean a whole lot, yet.

 

[Nekoo]

Found this information through SmashWiki: https://webcache.googleusercontent....1042898567159996416+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Doesn't mean anything.
The Tweet says "Please Hashimoto-san?"
He answered "Yes!"

He's probably showing his supports, but for whatever reason or to not create confusion he decided to delete it.


That's probably the 99% truth HOWEVER.

Hashimoto-san already leaked stuff by himself, like the Frozen World a ****tons of time before being revealed to the public at the E3 but like...a Year before. Before backtracking and saying it's not there. The PS4 ver of FFVII and some tiny stuff that Nomura had to clean after him.

 

[xzx]

That's pretty old at this point. It 'probably' doesn't mean a whole lot, yet.

I think Sora will be the first DLC character actually. But why would he delete the tweet anyway?

Taken from SmashWiki:

Sora rumor

On September 20, 2018, in a tweet asking if Kingdom Hearts protagonist Sora would be playable in Ultimate, series co-creator Shinji Hashimoto responded with "Yes!". [26] Although he later deleted the tweet, this led many to believe that Sora would be a playable character, with some pointing out its consistency with Vergeben's Square Enix rumor.

It should be noted, however, that while Kingdom Hearts is developed by Square Enix, the series itself, including the characters, are owned by Disney.

 

[Nekoo]

On September 20, 2018, in a tweet asking if Kingdom Hearts protagonist Sora would be playable in Ultimate, series co-creator Shinji Hashimoto responded with "Yes!".

That's not true. It's asking "please Hashimoto-san?" No idea how he took it but he answered with "Yes!"

Honestly I'm estatic if it's true but...LOWER your expectations.

I'm just confused as why deleting the message without like... y'know. Making it clear