Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part three: The Legend of Zelda (with polls)

[Quillion]

With your reasoning, what's the point of giving any character a moveset that properly portrays how they fight in canon? As long as it's cool, it doesn't matter, right?

I say that it's the spirit about the character that matters, not whether they need to use that one obscure ability in that one time in that one game. Say what you will about Zelda's moveset being consistently bad, but using magic in that way helps fit her spiritual character than any use of the Light Bow.

But now that Ganondorf is using his sword, it just doesn't fit how he's powerful yet calculating anymore. He should've just gotten his Melee frame data, not change a moveset for the sake of a vocal minority.

 

[Calamitas]

I say that it's the spirit about the character that matters, not whether they need to use that one obscure ability in that one time in that one game. Say what you will about Zelda's moveset being consistently bad, but using magic in that way helps fit her spiritual character than any use of the Light Bow.

But now that Ganondorf is using his sword, it just doesn't fit how he's powerful yet calculating anymore. He should've just gotten his Melee frame data, not change a moveset for the sake of a vocal minority.

I don't have any issues with Zelda's moveset myself, but I do feel like the Light Bow could still make a decent enough addition as a special. Phantom Slash feels a bit random to be honest, since the playable Zelda in Smash always represented the more "realistically-designed" Zelda games. If Toon Zelda were playable as she was intended in Brawl, she would've been a perfect fit for the move. But really, the current moveset is fine by me.

And let me just make this clear, I'm still not perfectly happy with Ganondorf's moveset now. Him using his sword for only Smash attacks feels like less than even a half-measure, especially when you consider just how much Bowser was overhauled in Smash 4. A perfect scenario for me would be if Ganondorf was fully revamped with swords, less "power up punches and kicks and stuff with magic"-magic and more "direct magical attacks like the lightning ball"-magic, and his Brawl/Smash 4 moveset being transferred to a character that is more fitting for it, like possibly Black Shadow.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I don't have any issues with Zelda's moveset myself, but I do feel like the Light Bow could still make a decent enough addition as a special. Phantom Slash feels a bit random to be honest, since the playable Zelda in Smash always represented the more "realistically-designed" Zelda games. If Toon Zelda were playable as she was intended in Brawl, she would've been a perfect fit for the move. But really, the current moveset is fine by me.

And let me just make this clear, I'm still not perfectly happy with Ganondorf's moveset now. Him using his sword for only Smash attacks feels like less than even a half-measure, especially when you consider just how much Bowser was overhauled in Smash 4. A perfect scenario for me would be if Ganondorf was fully revamped with swords, less "power up punches and kicks and stuff with magic"-magic and more "direct magical attacks like the lightning ball"-magic, and his Brawl/Smash 4 moveset being transferred to a character that is more fitting for it, like possibly Black Shadow.

TBH phantom slash is almost an insult since it would really belong on Toon Zelda's moveset, if she ever got in. I don't like how a character who has been in many games since 2001 still has her recycled moveset used over and over again. I wish they would replace phantom slash with the bow of light.

And honestly if Ganon is going to be OOT Ganon he should at least use Phantom Ganon's lightning attacks and ride in on his horse.

 

[Quillion]

And let me just make this clear, I'm still not perfectly happy with Ganondorf's moveset now. Him using his sword for only Smash attacks feels like less than even a half-measure, especially when you consider just how much Bowser was overhauled in Smash 4. A perfect scenario for me would be if Ganondorf was fully revamped with swords, less "power up punches and kicks and stuff with magic"-magic and more "direct magical attacks like the lightning ball"-magic, and his Brawl/Smash 4 moveset being transferred to a character that is more fitting for it, like possibly Black Shadow.

Bowser's moveset was horribly changed, though. Instead of being the awesome menacing monster he was in his earlier appearances, he's now just a big dumb wrestler with none of that primal fury.

And enough about Black Shadow. Do you like the idea of Mario losing his special tornado to Doc?

 

[Calamitas]

Bowser's moveset was horribly changed, though. Instead of being the awesome menacing monster he was in his earlier appearances, he's now just a big dumb wrestler with none of that primal fury.

And enough about Black Shadow. Do you like the idea of Mario losing his special tornado to Doc?

I mean, yeah? That kind of portrayal just fits Bowser better. Sure, he does have his menacing moments, but at the end of the day, he's also a rather goofy character. In Melee and Brawl he didn't even have anything that could be considered a proper running animation, so this change is more than welcome.

. . .And I really feel like we're getting way off-topic here. But for the record, my first Smash game was Brawl, so I don't exactly have much of an attachment to Mario with the Cyclone move. Him not having the move anymore does differentiate him from Luigi and Doctor Mario some more, so that's alright to me.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I mean, yeah? That kind of portrayal just fits Bowser better. Sure, he does have his menacing moments, but at the end of the day, he's also a rather goofy character. In Melee and Brawl he didn't even have anything that could be considered a proper running animation, so this change is more than welcome.

. . .And I really feel like we're getting way off-topic here. But for the record, my first Smash game was Brawl, so I don't exactly have much of an attachment to Mario with the Cyclone move. Him not having the move anymore does differentiate him from Luigi and Doctor Mario some more, so that's alright to me.

I guess you could say that, but they out the cyclone in his D-air. Although it doesn't have the powerful finisher or the distance covering power, it's still there.
I just wish they would get rid of FLUDD already.
And personally Yink's moveset needs to be revamped more. He even uses the bow instead of the slingshot, what were they thinking? In understand it's partially because of Majora's Mask, but separating him with that detail would have made him stand out a little.

 

[Quillion]

Why is it okay to ask that FLUDD be taken out but not Ganondorf's sword?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Why is it okay to ask that FLUDD be taken out but not Ganondorf's sword?

Because there are more interesting options for Mario to use like Cappy, whereas since Dorf is only in 3 games he doesn't have as many options for smash attacks. At least the sword is more interesting and nostalgic than punches and kicks. Besides, the frame data and hitbox sizes look crazy.

 

[Quillion]

Because there are more interesting options for Mario to use like Cappy, whereas since Dorf is only in 3 games he doesn't have as many options for smash attacks. At least the sword is more interesting and nostalgic than punches and kicks. Besides, the frame data and hitbox sizes look crazy.

But who wants to play as just another heavy swordsman when we already have Shulk, Ike, and Cloud? Ganondorf was far more unique when he was the brutal, methodical brawler. Now he's just in the same boat as three other characters who have made his "canonization" redundant.

He could've had better frame data to better match his lack of range, but that's all he needed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

But who wants to play as just another heavy swordsman when we already have Shulk, Ike, and Cloud? Ganondorf was far more unique when he was the brutal, methodical brawler. Now he's just in the same boat as three other characters who have made his "canonization" redundant.

He could've had better frame data to better match his lack of range, but that's all he needed.

Shulk, Ike and Cloud all barely punch in their move set. And aside from Ike, they aren’t heavyweights with power as their main strength. Neither really use magic, and if they do not in the way Ganondorf uses it.

Ganondorf is fine the way he is now.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

But who wants to play as just another heavy swordsman when we already have Shulk, Ike, and Cloud? Ganondorf was far more unique when he was the brutal, methodical brawler. Now he's just in the same boat as three other characters who have made his "canonization" redundant.

He could've had better frame data to better match his lack of range, but that's all he needed.

Have you even looked at Project Ganondorf? Combining Mage Ganondorf with some sword attacks would be the ****. I absolutely want to play as that instead of ****ing Falcondorf.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Have you even looked at Project Ganondorf? Combining Mage Ganondorf with some sword attacks would be the ****. I absolutely want to play as that instead of ****ing Falcondorf.

But now we have Falcondorf with Ike's Forward and Up Smash and Cloud's Down Smash, and you will love it.

 

[Quillion]

Have you even looked at Project Ganondorf? Combining Mage Ganondorf with some sword attacks would be the ****. I absolutely want to play as that instead of ****ing Falcondorf.

Mage Ganondorf is a Mewtwo ripoff and Sword Ganondorf is an Ike ripoff in that mod-for-a-mod.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Mage Ganondorf is a Mewtwo ripoff and Sword Ganondorf is an Ike ripoff in that mod-for-a-mod.

I think it's ****ing badass. Just accept that a ton of people hate Falcondorf.

 

[Quillion]

I think it's ****ing badass. Just accept that a ton of people hate Falcondorf.

I can accept people hating Falcondorf like any other character, but I can't really accept the reasons behind it. Why would Sheik attack enemies with her harp, for instance?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I can accept people hating Falcondorf like any other character, but I can't really accept the reasons behind it. Why would Sheik attack enemies with her harp, for instance?

You can't accept that people want to play as characters the way they were in their source games? That seems super easy to accept, and practically a given. As for Sheik, are you complaining about Smash or about Hyrule Warriors here?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just give me Impa as DLC or anything, since we’re talking Hyrule Warriors anyway...

 

[Quillion]

You can't accept that people want to play as characters the way they were in their source games? That seems super easy to accept, and practically a given. As for Sheik, are you complaining about Smash or about Hyrule Warriors here?

But do characters seriously need that one obscure move from that one small moment in that one game? What about Roy with his sword beam? What about Donkey Kong with his Barrel Throw? What about Mario with his Goomba Stomp (instead of Doc getting it)? And again, what about Sheik and her harp?

Isn't the spirit more important than those obscure references? Ganondorf's brutal yet calm nature is NOT well-reflected with a sword. He only used a sword when he lost his mind and had no other choice (which is why it crops up in final boss fights all the time). Otherwise, Ganondorf is best portrayed as being powerful yet prideful enough to hold himself back.

Just give me Impa as DLC or anything, since we’re talking Hyrule Warriors anyway...

Impa is too inconsistent to be a fighter, though. Do you want old lady Impa? Or young retainer Impa? Or agent from the past Impa? Most of them don't even fight, and the most we see is SS Impa using magical forcefields just to stall Ghirahim.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

But do characters seriously need that one obscure move from that one small moment in that one game? What about Roy with his sword beam? What about Donkey Kong with his Barrel Throw? What about Mario with his Goomba Stomp (instead of Doc getting it)? And again, what about Sheik and her harp?

Isn't the spirit more important than those obscure references? Ganondorf's brutal yet calm nature is NOT well-reflected with a sword. He only used a sword when he lost his mind and had no other choice (which is why it crops up in final boss fights all the time). Otherwise, Ganondorf is best portrayed as being powerful yet prideful enough to hold himself back.



Impa is too inconsistent to be a fighter, though. Do you want old lady Impa? Or young retainer Impa? Or agent from the past Impa? Most of them don't even fight, and the most we see is SS Impa using magical forcefields just to stall Ghirahim.

Ganondorf uses magic all the time. What's your excuse for that?

 

[TheYungLink]

"I love Link as a Little Mac clone because it's BADASS to see Link straight up PUNCHING people!!!

It PERFECTLY showcases how he has the Triforce of Courage: what's braver than going right up to an opponent's face, risking it all with how vulnerable you are, and whaling on your opponents, dodging in and out, knowing you can be knocked out at any moment!?

This is why it BAFFLES me that people want Link to be yet ANOTHER sword fighter. Using huge disjointed slashes would completely take away from Link's current playstyle. And what's this about projectiles, and how you want Link to have LOTS of them!? You want Link to be more 'canonical' but all it would do is ruin how Link is in Smash. I TRULY feel like Link whenever I'm playing as him--isn't that canonical ENOUGH for the rest of you!?!? *shakes head*

Just goes to show that it's a good thing Sakurai's the one making decisions here, and that it's a good thing Link was a last-second addition in Melee as a Little Mac clone. Serendipity sometimes just leads to better things!"

--from an alternate universe where Zelda content wasn't added until Melee and Little Mac was in Smash 64.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Impa is too inconsistent to be a fighter, though. Do you want old lady Impa? Or young retainer Impa? Or agent from the past Impa? Most of them don't even fight, and the most we see is SS Impa using magical forcefields just to stall Ghirahim.

Young Impa of course. Retainer and agent of the past share a similar enough role, which is to safeguard the princess, which is what she did in Hyrule Warriors as well- and that being her first playable role ever. That certainly counts for something. And it’s not like Zelda ever fought before she was playable in Melee, Sheik never fought either. Just check Impa’s trophy in the Smash 4 Wii U version, it says her combat abilities are on par with Ghirahim’s swordsmanship. That’s saying quite a lot actually.

 

[Kensho]

I think it's pretty obvious Ganondorf at this point is just problems brought from the past. It never made sense that he had Falcon's moveset, but the bodyshape was the only one that fit or whatever. I don't want obscure specific stuff from the games forced on it, I just want him to be a heavy Warlock magic user like he is supposed to. I don't care if he had some attacks taken from someone else and he punches and kicks or whatever, but at least they should have changed all his special attacks to be magic, and not keep the Falcon ones 3 games after he was rushed. He is one of the most important characters, on par almost with Bowser, but Sheik got a rework before him? Sigh.

I love Zelda using the magic of the godesses and all her attacks because they capture the idea of the character perfectly, even if she changed so much over the games.

Bowser moveset should be goofy, because he is a goof.

Impa as a Sheik echo would be dope. I don't think there would be enough there to justify a new character completely. Maybe a partial clone like Isabelle.


Edit: I forgot to say that I hate we have 3 Links and they share almost all Items and attacks. We could have 4 Links with unique movesets, easily. I want Skull Kid desperately tho!!

 

[Quillion]

"I love Link as a Little Mac clone because it's BADASS to see Link straight up PUNCHING people!!!

It PERFECTLY showcases how he has the Triforce of Courage: what's braver than going right up to an opponent's face, risking it all with how vulnerable you are, and whaling on your opponents, dodging in and out, knowing you can be knocked out at any moment!?

This is why it BAFFLES me that people want Link to be yet ANOTHER sword fighter. Using huge disjointed slashes would completely take away from Link's current playstyle. And what's this about projectiles, and how you want Link to have LOTS of them!? You want Link to be more 'canonical' but all it would do is ruin how Link is in Smash. I TRULY feel like Link whenever I'm playing as him--isn't that canonical ENOUGH for the rest of you!?!? *shakes head*

Just goes to show that it's a good thing Sakurai's the one making decisions here, and that it's a good thing Link was a last-second addition in Melee as a Little Mac clone. Serendipity sometimes just leads to better things!"

--from an alternate universe where Zelda content wasn't added until Melee and Little Mac was in Smash 64.

You are aware that Link can punch with the Fist and Master Rings in the Oracle games, right? So that would be canon as well.

 

[Quillion]

You know, now that regular enemies are now officially on the table, I'm starting to think that the solution to Zelda's lack of newcomers is enemies now. Certainly seems more likely than the one-shots at this point.

 

[maxistrife]

I HONESTLY think Zelda has fair representation, BUTTTTTT I would love more. Girahim, Demise, the 4 champions from BOTW, Impa...so many amazing possibilities =P

 

[Quillion]

Can I bump this thread? I wanna talk about spirits and I don't want to start a new thread about it.

Something strange I noticed about the spirits is how OoT adult Link and TP Link are left out. The spirits do a good job of representing the most unique versions of all of the Triforce wielders: whether it be the Tri Force Heroes Links, OoT Zelda (young and evolves into adult), TP Ganondorf, two Classic Links (the original and the most recent, ALBW), BotW Zelda, WW Tetra/Zelda, and ghost Zelda, there's a lot to go around. Yet despite being two previous incarnations of Link that were playable, OoT Link and TP Link aren't there for whatever reason.

Considering TP Ganondorf is a spirit and OoT Link was a trophy in Smash 3DS, the fact that adult OoT Link and TP Link are being excluded seems rather suspicious. Then again, TP Zelda was excluded as a spirit for some reason and WW Ganondorf went from trophy status to absence as well, which could also be suspicious or disproving that they have special plans for the excluded incarnations.

Still hoping they have it in the cards to make OoT and TP Link an Echo; they can directly recycle the animations and TP model from Smash 4 and voice clips from both Melee and 4 to heavily reduce time and costs. They could possibly offer him as a free update.

 

[Xelrog]

Who would he be an echo of? Link or Young Link? He has more similarities with the latter now.

 

[Quillion]

Who would he be an echo of? Link or Young Link? He has more similarities with the latter now.

Either works. It's not like it really matters. I'd personally say Link though, by virtue of TP and OoT Link holding the position of the Link previously.

 

[Arthur97]

Who would he be an echo of? Link or Young Link? He has more similarities with the latter now.

I say a mix. Most of the moves would be like Young Link's, but he's be closer attribute wise to Link due to being pretty much the same size wise. Also, no fire arrows and a single hit spin attack.

 

[Xelrog]

I say a mix. Most of the moves would be like Young Link's, but he's be closer attribute wise to Link due to being pretty much the same size wise. Also, no fire arrows and a single hit spin attack.

Unfortunately, "a mix" isn't a spot on the character select.

 

[Quillion]

I say a mix. Most of the moves would be like Young Link's, but he's be closer attribute wise to Link due to being pretty much the same size wise. Also, no fire arrows and a single hit spin attack.

I think he means who Classic Link will be designated an echo of with the epsilon symbol, not who he will be closest to.

But you are right. I wouldn't be surprised if they just repurposed the Smash 4 animations for Young Link, even if that won't satisfy me.

 

[Arthur97]

Unfortunately, "a mix" isn't a spot on the character select.

He'd probably officially be considered a Link echo (though, Link should be his echo). Most of the moves are still the same anyway.

 

[Quillion]

though, Link should be his echo

Are you saying that TP/OoT Link should be the base and BotW Link should be the echo?

What would BotW Link be called anyway? At least TP/OoT Link can get by on being Classic Link.

 

[Arthur97]

Are you saying that TP/OoT Link should be the base and BotW Link should be the echo?

What would BotW Link be called anyway? At least TP/OoT Link can get by on being Classic Link.

Yes, because he would have the original moveset, and he isn't really classic Link. That would be like NES Link.

 

[Quillion]

Yes, because he would have the original moveset

The problem I see with making BotW Link the echo is that Nintendo is pushing him as the Link now. Making TP/OoT Link the base would create a big inconsistency with what Nintendo is doing.

Again, what would they call BotW Link if he wasn't the Link?

and he isn't really classic Link. That would be like NES Link.

This is why I think the best case scenario is for a Classic Link echo would be to have "actual Classic Link" be the default skin (primarily based on ALttP Link as he can pass as being as tall as the other adult Links), but his alts would be OoT Link and TP Link, each with their own voices (and with Classic Link getting voice clips from ALBW). It would give the term "Classic Link" a double meaning.