Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part three: The Legend of Zelda (with polls)

[Frizz]

Well, we have Isabelle who was a "pacifist," so...

To add on to this, there's also the entirety of the FE cast. They're strong advocates against fighting and war in general, but I'm sure everybody in the Smash roster knows that Super Smash Bros. is more for sport rather than to the death.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think that was just an excuse and they just preferred her ALbW design. I don't blame them but I hope she has alts from TP, SS, and other games. In fact I think Link should have this sort of thing too--he has the "classic" green tunic but wouldn't it be sweet if we could play as TP Link, SS Link, and Adult OoT Link?

To add on to this, there's also the entirety of the FE cast. They're strong advocates against fighting and war in general, but I'm sure everybody in the Smash roster knows that Super Smash Bros. is more for sport rather than to the death.

You can say that about pretty much everyone though? Like it's not just FE characters, pretty sure Mario's not some bloodthirsty belligerent either. It's the question of "could they fight, or would they if necessary" not "does this character go around picking fights?"

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Day 7! Today's topic is....
Do you agree with the statement that Zelda from BotW was into research, and thus should not be fighter?

I agree with the fact that she's more into research, and I think using a different look for each Zelda character was a great idea, but I think that "she's a researcher, she wouldn't fight" is a garbage excuse to NOT have her. I would have preferred it if they hadn't given any reason at all for not using BOTW Zelda, then I'd be completely salt free ( BOTW Zelda is actually the first incarnation of the character I've ever cared about besides Tetra, but I don't count her, since even she rejects that name ) Besides that, ALTTP Zelda wasn't exactly known for her combat prowess either.

Honestly, they should have created their own Smash Exclusive designs for all the Zelda characters back in the Brawl days just like Hyrule Warriors, complete with game-accurate skins, so they didn't have to worry about keeping them up-to-date with the games.

You can say that about pretty much everyone though? Like it's not just FE characters, pretty sure Mario's not some bloodthirsty belligerent either. It's the question of "could they fight, or would they if necessary" not "does this character go around picking fights?"

I'm convinced that Mario would do literally anything if you framed it as a fun competition among friends. Blood Sports are huge in the Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[Quillion]

Day 7! Today's topic is....
Do you agree with the statement that Zelda from BotW was into research, and thus should not be fighter?

Absolutely not, since Zelda was never a fighter in OoT yet they included her anyway. Hell, ALttP and ALBW Zelda both did nothing resembling combat.

And even then, they entirely removed her Light Bow, meaning that her fighting style in Smash has NO resemblance to her canon fighting style.

All of that said, I'm hoping for OoT, TP, SS, and BotW alts, preferably the blue royal dress for the lattermost.

 

[Quillion]

he has the "classic" green tunic but wouldn't it be sweet if we could play as TP Link, SS Link, and Adult OoT Link?

Again, I think a composite of "classic Link" would best be an echo and not just a simple alt.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Seriously, Impa would round up the Zelda roster alone quite well. She's easily the most missed character on the current roster.

 

[Frizz]

You can say that about pretty much everyone though? Like it's not just FE characters, pretty sure Mario's not some bloodthirsty belligerent either. It's the question of "could they fight, or would they if necessary" not "does this character go around picking fights?"

Pretty much, yeah, but the FE characters explicitly state that. The topic never comes up in other series as far as I'm aware because it has nothing to do with their franchise. You won't see Mario saying it because the Mario series isn't about war or fighting.

 

[Sabertooth]

The only fourth Link I want is Dark Link. Just change his name on the CSS--he's already in the game, doesn't even need his own slot. The dev team could literally do this in like twenty minutes after getting Xander to say his name.

 

[Quillion]

The only fourth Link I want is Dark Link. Just change his name on the CSS--he's already in the game, doesn't even need his own slot. The dev team could literally do this in like twenty minutes after getting Xander to say his name.

The only thing that Dark Link has over Link is teleportation. How is that more unique than getting a "Classic Link" that has versions of the moves that don't derive from BotW?

 

[Sabertooth]

Hm? I never said he was more unique. He's a skin. He doesn't have teleportation, he has the same moves as Link.

 

[Quillion]

Hm? I never said he was more unique. He's a skin. He doesn't have teleportation, he has the same moves as Link.

And this is why I think "Classic Link" can bring so much more than just being skins. Not much more, mind, but enough to satisfy people who want to play as the old Link.

Next you'll say, "Then play as Young Link," am I right?

And to that I say:

 

[Captain Shades]

Ohh... How would I change Zelda, well I think that’s difficult to decide but here’s what I would do.

First, kill off these two


Trust me it’ll make sense later.

Okay, so the Zelda cast should be focused around representing each of the core (basically console) titles that are important or are fan favorites. I’ll work with 7, one character above the original amount as some do believe we could be seeing a newcomer, that way my list is semi-consistent with Smash. So if I were to select characters, I’d pick ones from these titles; Ocarina (highest rated game of all time along with being a major step for the franchise), Link to The Past (What most fans consider to be the definitive 2D Zelda), BOTW (The biggest series change up in about two decades), Wind Waker (Fan Favorite and starts art style divide), Majora’s Mask (Fan Favorite), and spin offs. I’d skip Twilight and Skyward Sword as those two are filled with controversy, so it really isn’t worth the effort to give them characters when they can easily be represented by stages and assists like they already are.

To start off we’ll keep these 4 with no changes to their designs from Ultimate.
represents BOTW
represents Link to The Past
represents Ocarina of Time
represents Wind Waker + Toon series (4 swords, Phantom Hourglass, etc.)

Then for new characters I’d have...

Skull Kid (Majora’s Mask) - He’s the main villain of Majora’s Mask, so he’d represent that title. He’s also just an iconic villain in general, as Majora’s Mask and the Moon are some of Zelda’s strongest imagery at this point. Out of all one-shot villains, it seems Skull Kid left the biggest impact.

Impa (Hyrule Warriors) - Being that Impa is the 4th reoccurring character in Zelda, showing up in multiple entries, I think she deserves a spot on the roster. She is also a sheikah, so shouldn’t she represent their fighting style over Zelda in costume? She should be designed after her Hyrule Warriors look, as I’m sure that title is the reason why people want her in the first place, plus its a great design and highlights the Warriors spinoffs of the franchise, which are super popular.

Tingle (The Tingle Series) - Smash loves joke characters! Tingle is also the main character in 4 Zelda titles believe it or not, and is a fan favorite. Just like Impa represents Warriors, I think Tingle should represent his own games and be designed after them. Overall I feel like Tingle would complete this cast of 7 weirdly enough, he’s been in multiple entries and has definitely left an impact and has recognizability up there with Skull Kid.

 

[Quillion]

I’d skip Twilight and Skyward Sword as those two are filled with controversy, so it really isn’t worth the effort to give them characters when they can easily be represented by stages and assists like they already are.

Well, they are unambiguously the two weakest 3D Zelda games, but hey, people like them. They can at least stand to get alt skins for the characters.

 

[Captain Shades]

Well, they are unambiguously the two weakest 3D Zelda games, but hey, people like them. They can at least stand to get alt skins for the characters.

I guess that’s depending on if alt skins are a thing, as Smash has not had a good history of that.

I just left them out of the character roster as there’s no point in wasting time on heavily divisive games and having them take up character slots, when you should represent the fan favorites. Plus no one from those games is as iconic as Skull Kid or Tingle, so I feel that I can get away with leaving them out.

To include all of Zelda, I would keep stages from those entries along with assists and items, giving them tons of representation through smaller, yet significant means as they shouldn’t be out right forgotten, just given less attention.

Other than that, was my list good?

 

[Quillion]

I just left them out of the character roster as there’s no point in wasting time on heavily divisive games and having them take up character slots, when you should represent the fan favorites. Plus no one from those games is as iconic as Skull Kid or Tingle, so I feel that I can get away with leaving them out.

Smash has "wasted time" on Mario Sunshine, Metroid Other M, and Star Fox Assault. If divisive games have beloved elements, they should be in Smash.

Other than that, was my list good?

Other than maybe changing the established non-Link Zelda characters to have more canon moves and changing the Links to have unique specials, your list is good.

 

[staindgrey]

Well, they are unambiguously the two weakest 3D Zelda games, but hey, people like them. They can at least stand to get alt skins for the characters.

I'd argue against that. Twilight Princess was OoT but with more character, more pixels, more to do, a better Navi and a lack of nostalgia goggles to convince people it's better than it actually is.

**** Skyward Sword's motion controls, though.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'd argue against that. Twilight Princess was OoT but with more character, more pixels, more to do, a better Navi and a lack of nostalgia goggles to convince people it's better than it actually is.

**** Skyward Sword's motion controls, though.

Twilight Princess was the worst 3D Zelda I've played. There, now the anecdotes are even.

 

[Oddball]

Ohh... How would I change Zelda, well I think that’s difficult to decide but here’s what I would do.

No big Blue pig monster Ganon? For shame.

 

[Quillion]

staindgrey and Al-kīmiyā' :

Well, you two are just proving Captain Shades ' and my point.

Personally, I just call TP-SS, including PH and ST, a "dark age of Zelda" and be done with it.

They're not necessarily bad games; there's just a wide gulf between them and previous games plus BotW.

 

[Captain Shades]

Smash has "wasted time" on Mario Sunshine, Metroid Other M, and Star Fox Assault. If divisive games have beloved elements, they should be in Smash.

I meant full on characters, like I said before, stages, assists, and items are more than fine, even necessary. Plus the reason those divisive games got stuff (in terms of characters) is due to being the most modern incarnation, Samus and Fox were unchanged moveset wise, they just had a new look to fit the modern appearance, which Zelda did with Twilight Princess for awhile. With Zelda now varying up the designs to fit different titles, I think going the less fan divisive route is best. I know Midna and Girahim have fans, but they come from what are easily considered to be the worst 3D Zelda titles, with Skyward Sword breaking the camel’s back and having Nintendo change the formula due to fan interest. Sticking to the best of Zelda for characters would make sense having the two game changers (BOTW and Ocarina), the definitive 2D title (Link to The Past), the fan loved titles (Majora and Wind Waker), and also the art style divide (Wind Waker). Add in the spin offs like Hyrule Warriors which have little to no backlash against them, and that’s a pretty good line up to show the ‘best of Zelda.’

Also, is Mario Sunshine really still that hated? I though many considered it one of if not the best Mario title by 4. I know Mario had F.L.U.D.D. in Brawl, probably to differentiate him more from Luigi, plus it was the most modern game and Brawl did update characters like the aforementioned Zelda crew to be more modern.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

staindgrey and Al-kīmiyā' :

Well, you two are just proving Captain Shades ' and my point.

Personally, I just call TP-SS, including PH and ST, a "dark age of Zelda" and be done with it.

They're not necessarily bad games; there's just a wide gulf between them and previous games plus BotW.

I thought Skyward Sword was pretty great.

 

[staindgrey]

I thought Skyward Sword was pretty great.

And I never could bring myself to finish it.

Now the anecdotes are even.

 

[Calamitas]

Well, they are unambiguously the two weakest 3D Zelda games, but hey, people like them. They can at least stand to get alt skins for the characters.

Them's fighting words. Personally, I think Ocarina of Time is the absolute weakest of all 3D Zelda games, with there being a large gap to the next-worst, Wind Waker.

Though it's not like any of them are bad games, honestly.

More on-topic, though: It always bothered me how the Mario series could get minor character after minor character prominently featured in Smash (not even playable, mind you), but the Zelda characters always got ignored entirely. I still believe that Wolf Link and Midna should've been playable since Brawl. . .

 

[Sabertooth]

I want Cole from Spirit Tracks (?) to be playable because that's my name.

 

[Captain Shades]

Them's fighting words. Personally, I think Ocarina of Time is the absolute weakest of all 3D Zelda games, with there being a large gap to the next-worst, Wind Waker.

Though it's not like any of them are bad games, honestly.

More on-topic, though: It always bothered me how the Mario series could get minor character after minor character prominently featured in Smash (not even playable, mind you), but the Zelda characters always got ignored entirely. I still believe that Wolf Link and Midna should've been playable since Brawl. . .

What do you mean by minor characters? Other than Dr. Mario, all of Mario’s characters are important to the franchise and show up in multiple titles. Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser are the main cast of practically every title. Bowser Jr was technically the main villain of Sunshine and New Super Mario Bros. (DS) and he is a boss character in the other New titles and the Galaxy series. Rosalina was the main helper of the Galaxy titles, and was playable in 3D World, along with her now numerous appearances in Mario spinoffs along with Jr.. Daisy was the princess of Land, has become an icon of the spinoffs, and is a playable character in Super Mario Run. I think Mario has completely justifiable character choices besides Doc.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'd argue Rosalina and Daisy really don't contribute much to the Mario series, but there's no need to derail this thread further with my opinions. This is a Zelda thread after all.

I just started playing Link Between Worlds and I've heard people say they'd like Hilda as a Zelda echo? Sure, that'd be neat. I don't really know much about her yet but she seems evil and I love villains so bring her on.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Alright everyone! Sorry I was busy the last couple of days.

Today's topic is....
Do you agree/disagree with the "one shot" argument lowering the credibility of some of Zelda's characters?

 

[Quillion]

Alright everyone! Sorry I was busy the last couple of days.

Today's topic is....
Do you agree/disagree with the "one shot" argument lowering the credibility of some of Zelda's characters?

Yes, but admittedly, it's just speculation on my part. I personally want one shot characters to offset Sheik being horribly out of place, but I don't think Sakurai and his team do.

It's like I put on this thread: I want them, but don't expect them.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Alright everyone! Sorry I was busy the last couple of days.

Today's topic is....
Do you agree/disagree with the "one shot" argument lowering the credibility of some of Zelda's characters?

I have to admit, it's hard to disagree when we have three Links, Sheik who is Ninja Zelda, and Falcondorf.

I personally want to say if a one-shot is popular enough, i.e. Skull Kid (who technically has been in two other games, three if you count HW, even if MM was his only major role), then Sakurai may consider them, but he seems to only give the Triforce Holders any attention, not even adding characters like Tingle.

I hope this changes with Ultimate, starting with Skull Kid.

 

[Quillion]

I have to admit, it's hard to disagree when we have three Links, Sheik who is Ninja Zelda, and Falcondorf.

I personally want to say if a one-shot is popular enough, i.e. Skull Kid (who technically has been in two other games, three if you count HW, even if MM was his only major role), then Sakurai may consider them, but he seems to only give the Triforce Holders any attention, not even adding characters like Tingle.

I hope this changes with Ultimate, starting with Skull Kid.

I think the real problem is Sakurai viewing the Zelda series through the lens of a fairly static cast like Mario and not a revolving door like Pokémon. It leads to them equating characters like Midna and the Champions to Lubba and the Broodals.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Alright everyone! Sorry I was busy the last couple of days.

Today's topic is....
Do you agree/disagree with the "one shot" argument lowering the credibility of some of Zelda's characters?

In the past, I would have, since they used to stick with the same aesthetic for the triforce holders, barring toon link, and not only that, but they updated Shiek to look more like she came from Twilight Princess. But now that the triforce holders are modeled after different versions of themselves I think anything is fair game. Nothing would look out of place nex to the other Zelda reps anymore.

Also, some of the "one shot" characters have much bigger star status than recurring Zelda characters. There's no way that Midna is less popular and well known than Impa, for example. Really it all comes down to which one shot character we're talking about here. There's a tier system, I feel. I won't get into it, since I feel like my first post in this thread covers that pretty well.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Add Skull Kid, Sidon, Impa, and...Linkle to the Zelda side of the Smash roster

Then they have no choice but to make Ganondorf high tier

 

[Smash Lampjaw]

To the original topic, I don't even think there are enough Link's, let alone Zelda characters in general. I'd still like to see Hero's Shade and Wolf Link be playable in the future, but I don't see those happening with 3 on the roster already.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Hero's shade seems like an odd choice, but Wolf Link, I feel, would only be playable if he had Midna on his back, and she's already an assist trophy. However, I think Midna is the Zelda character most people wanted right after Skull Kid.. possibly just as much as Skull Kid,

 

[Quillion]

Hero's shade seems like an odd choice, but Wolf Link, I feel, would only be playable if he had Midna on his back, and she's already an assist trophy. However, I think Midna is the Zelda character most people wanted right after Skull Kid.. possibly just as much as Skull Kid,

I'm starting to think that Skull Kid is only getting attention because people have given up on Midna and Ghirahim being anything more than Assist Trophies.

 

[_sneaK]

Day 7! Today's topic is....
Do you agree with the statement that Zelda from BotW was into research, and thus should not be fighter?

Doesn't she have a sword in her official artwork and amiibo?

 

[Sabertooth]

I do wish we'd get a BotW Zelda alt. In fact I'd love an alt for every incarnation of Zelda, even CD-i.

 

[KirbyMonadoBoy]

I really want the Champions from Breath of the Wild in Smash, I think they would be a great addition to the roster! As I've already posted in the Mipha thread, I could imagine all 4 Champions having one fighter-slot (just like the Pokemon-Trainer) and you could switch between the 4 champions during a match. I want the Champions more than any other Zelda-character.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Doesn't she have a sword in her official artwork and amiibo?

TP Zelda has a sword in her official artwork, but not her amiibo. BOTW Zelda holds the Sheikah Slate.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Choose an item you would rather have in the game:
Majora's Mask: A wearable item that slows down the movement of opponents you hit for 10 seconds, lasts until you take 30 or more damage.
Or
Iron Boots: your falling speed greatly increases and you take less knockback. Similar to turning into metal, however if you take 20 or more damage the boots fall off.