Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part three: The Legend of Zelda (with polls)

[Smash Lampjaw]

Choose an item you would rather have in the game:
Majora's Mask: A wearable item that slows down the movement of opponents you hit for 10 seconds, lasts until you take 30 or more damage.
Or
Iron Boots: your falling speed greatly increases and you take less knockback. Similar to turning into metal, however if you take 20 or more damage the boots fall off.

Neither. Majora's Mask sounds very broken described like that, someone's going to completely control the match until someone slowed down manages to do that much damage to you which could take a while. The iron boots are just the metal box, and losing it after 20 damage isn't enough to justify picking it up.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Choose an item you would rather have in the game:
Majora's Mask: A wearable item that slows down the movement of opponents you hit for 10 seconds, lasts until you take 30 or more damage.
Or
Iron Boots: your falling speed greatly increases and you take less knockback. Similar to turning into metal, however if you take 20 or more damage the boots fall off.

Choose an item you would rather have in the game:
Majora's Mask: A wearable item that slows down the movement of opponents you hit for 10 seconds, lasts until you take 30 or more damage.
Or
Iron Boots: your falling speed greatly increases and you take less knockback. Similar to turning into metal, however if you take 20 or more damage the boots fall off.

Majora's Mask, definitely! However, that would also mean that Skull Kid would not be playable.

 

[Sabertooth]

Nah, not necessarily. We still have the Hocotate Bomb even though it's basically Olimar and Alph's final smash.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Do you miss some of Link's older costumes, or do you enjoy the new ones based on BotW?

 

[Glaciacott]

Four pages of Zelda talk and not a single mention of Groose. You all should be ashamed.

 

[Quillion]

Do you miss some of Link's older costumes, or do you enjoy the new ones based on BotW?

Both. I really like how Link gets to reflect BotW, but I really miss the lefty Link from TP. That goes for both movesets and costumes.

This is why I want "Classic Link" as an echo to receive an iteration of Link's moveset without the bells and whistles of BotW.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Four pages of Zelda talk and not a single mention of Groose. You all should be ashamed.

(Oh **** how did I forget I'm so sorry)

If Groose was represented, would he be an AT, fighter, or stage appearance?

 

[Quillion]

(Oh **** how did I forget I'm so sorry)

If Groose was represented, would he be an AT, fighter, or stage appearance?

Assist Trophy. His best hope is Hyrule Warriors 2.

 

[Mrplutoguy112]

I think the amount of fighters in Zelda series for smash is enough for the future titles.
I don’t think it would be necessary to add more unless they were to take out maybe 1 or 2 to add maybe skull kid or something.
Young link I’d be ok with them removing or Zelda for that matter. But the rest can stay in the roaster.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

H

(Oh **** how did I forget I'm so sorry)

If Groose was represented, would he be an AT, fighter, or stage appearance?

He should be an assist trophy using the Groosenator.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Grosse is just a funny character to begin with.

Should Young link become an echo fighter of Toon Link? Vice versa? Or neither?

 

[Quillion]

Grosse is just a funny character to begin with.

Should Young link become an echo fighter of Toon Link? Vice versa? Or neither?

Young Link should get Mask-based moves+the Great Fairy Sword, and Toon Link should get moves based on the Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Grappling Hook, and Wind Waker.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Young Link should get Mask-based moves+the Great Fairy Sword, and Toon Link should get moves based on the Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Grappling Hook, and Wind Waker.

As cool as the Great Fairy Sword is, it would make about as much sense as giving Link the Biggoron sword or the megaton hammer. It's a shame Smash doesn't allow changing weapons like in Soul Calibur.

 

[Quillion]

As cool as the Great Fairy Sword is, it would make about as much sense as giving Link the Biggoron sword or the megaton hammer. It's a shame Smash doesn't allow changing weapons like in Soul Calibur.

I personally *would* like to see weapon/moveset swapping like that, but I was thinking more with the GFS just being his F-Smash.

 

[TheCraigadile]

I know he won’t get in, but I’d love Vaati to get in. I’ve been holding out hope for a Four Swords game for the Switch, and a return of Vaati. Switch’s gimmick seems to be portability and a focus on coming together and playing anywhere. I feel like this would be perfect for Four Swords, and Vaati appearing in Smash would be great promotion. It would also be a representative in the subset of ‘Toon’ games. I know it’s a Longshot, but I can dream.

Do you miss some of Link's older costumes, or do you enjoy the new ones based on BotW?

I do, I felt Smash had got a good look down for Link in 4, and the Palette Swaps were great. You had the simple but great looking Red, Blue, Purple and Yellow, and then Dark Link which was awesome, Fierce Deity, which was even more awesome, and SS Link, which was pretty neat. They just worked. The new ones are good, but not as good in my opinion.

 

[Luigifan18]

I know he won’t get in, but I’d love Vaati to get in. I’ve been holding out hope for a Four Swords game for the Switch, and a return of Vaati. Switch’s gimmick seems to be portability and a focus on coming together and playing anywhere. I feel like this would be perfect for Four Swords, and Vaati appearing in Smash would be great promotion. It would also be a representative in the subset of ‘Toon’ games. I know it’s a Longshot, but I can dream.

Dude, same here. A wind mage on the roster would be awesome.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Dude, same here. A wind mage on the roster would be awesome.

How is Vaati a wind mage? He's called that, but how much does he actually use wind powers?

 

[Luigifan18]

How is Vaati a wind mage? He's called that, but how much does he actually use wind powers?

His boss fights in both Four Swords games involve him trying to scoop the Links up and toss them around with a tornado (with the Links having to counter by throwing bombs into the tornado), and I believe he has an attack where he tries to blow you off the arena with a sustained strong wind.

 

[Quillion]

His boss fights in both Four Swords games involve him trying to scoop the Links up and toss them around with a tornado (with the Links having to counter by throwing bombs into the tornado), and I believe he has an attack where he tries to blow you off the arena with a sustained strong wind.

Funny how The Minish Cap is the game that actually makes Vaati a good character yet it also ditches his wind association wholesale.

 

[Luigifan18]

Funny how The Minish Cap is the game that actually makes Vaati a good character yet it also ditches his wind association wholesale.

Yeah. Funny that, indeed... what the hell, Capcom-

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Who do you think would be better as an echo fighter of Zelda: Hilda, or Toon Zelda?

 

[TheCJBrine]

Who do you think would be better as an echo fighter of Zelda: Hilda, or Toon Zelda?

I can see Hilda as an echo, and it'd make sense with Zelda using a combination of her ALttP and ALBW designs.

Toon Zelda would have to be different or a clone/semi-clone, as she'd have different proportions.

 

[Quillion]

Hilda would certainly fit better as an Echo, but why have her? I think even Echoes need to hold importance to their canon franchise, and again, Hilda is a one-shot.

Toon Zelda shouldn't even be considered when Tetra is a possibility. At least Tetra isn't a one-shot and, unlike Majora's Skull Kid, had a tangible impact on the canon timeline.

 

[Manonymous]

I think Link's moveset is fine for the most part. In fact I feel like I was the only one in the world who thought "Champion Link" should stay the same instead of using runes and champion powers just for the sake of being different.

No you weren't.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Here's my idea for the Zelda cast. I feel this gives the series the best balanced fighter representation:

- I honestly like him the way he is now. Like giving him the Gale Boomerang when he was the TP design, I'm fine with the BotW design with the remote bombs. There isn't too much to do with Link unless you completely overhaul the moveset by giving him BotW moves, which I feel would just make him "BotW Link" rather than "Link".
- Unpopular opinion I feel, but I like Zelda's moveset. Of course, there are certain things that can be enhanced or modified from its current version, but I enjoy her attacks and design.
- I like that Ganondorf uses brute strength and power, so I don't mind that he has some moves similar to Falcon. All I want is his Dead Man's Volley to his current Ultimate Design and I feel like he's perfect.
- I like the idea of having another Link, as the Toon series are quite popular. But I would definitely differentiate them by at least changing Toon Link's moves to make it more like those lines of Zelda games: Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, the Wind Waker itself, etc. Hell, put stuff in Spirit Tracks for all I care.

These four I feel are musts. I would then add Impa as the guardian she was in titles such as OoT, SS, and HW. After that, Skull Kid and Midna (with Wolf Link if y'all want some third Link) for some more varied gameplay.

Stages, items, and music is already fantastic.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Personally I wish we would have any kind of a Zelda newcomer at this point. Whilst not being the most desperate for extra representation, Zelda hasn't had a newcomer since Brawl which is really disappointing. Again, I understand the argument that a lot of Zelda newcomers are one-shots, but does that really matter? How many other fighters in Smash have only appeared on one game or only a few (not counting remakes)?

I just wish if we were to get another Zelda newcomer it won't be another version of Link/Zelda/D O R F

 

[Quillion]

Again, I understand the argument that a lot of Zelda newcomers are one-shots, but does that really matter? How many other fighters in Smash have only appeared on one game or only a few (not counting remakes)?

Because Zelda has a core recurring cast. None of the one-shots are as important as the core cast.

• Fire Emblem has recurring side characters, but a constantly changing core cast. None of the recurring characters in Fire Emblem are major.
• Pokémon has a revolving door of Pokémon selection, but at least previous Pokémon don't go away. The trainers are never important in the grand scheme of the series.
• Xenoblade follows the Final Fantasy model of purely thematic sequels. There are no recurring characters.

Zelda is treated more like the Mario series than Pokémon. Think of it this way: Would Bowser Jr. automatically be worthy if his only game was Sunshine? Would Captain Toad automatically be worthy if his only game was Galaxy?

 

[Luigifan18]

Because Zelda has a core recurring cast. None of the one-shots are as important as the core cast.

• Fire Emblem has recurring side characters, but a constantly changing core cast. None of the recurring characters in Fire Emblem are major.
• Pokémon has a revolving door of Pokémon selection, but at least previous Pokémon don't go away. The trainers are never important in the grand scheme of the series.
• Xenoblade follows the Final Fantasy model of purely thematic sequels. There are no recurring characters.

Zelda is treated more like the Mario series than Pokémon. Think of it this way: Would Bowser Jr. automatically be worthy if his only game was Sunshine? Would Captain Toad automatically be worthy if his only game was Galaxy?

It’s funny that you mention the “Final Fantasy model”. Several of the numbered Final Fantasy games have gotten prequels, sequels, and side-stories taking place in the same world with the same characters, but those games are always treated like spin-off games to the ones their stories follow up on, and each of the core numbered titles do have separate storylines with separate characters in separate worlds. As for Xenoblade, the plot of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is actually directly connected to the plot of the original Xenoblade Chronicles, but IIRC from my brief reading about it on TV Tropes, the connection between the two stories that makes them into a single story comes up very late in the game and the specific details are a heavy plot twist and massive spoiler, so I'm not gonna go into it.

As for Bowser Jr. and Captain Toad, Bowser Jr.'s debut in Super Mario Sunshine would give him enough moveset potential on its own to make him worthy of inclusion in Smash, though it definitely helps that he was the primary antagonist in that game and played a major role (Bowser only showed up at the very end, with the game barely hinting at his presence before he showed up). In fact, it was specifically the Sunshine portrayal of Bowser Jr. that I supported for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Captain Toad, on the other hand, really wasn’t all that important in Super Mario Galaxy (though he may or may not be the same Toad who's been a major character in games like Super Mario Bros. 2 (U.S.) and Wario’s Woods, who is certainly important enough for Smash on those grounds). Really, it’s Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad: Treasure Trackers that elevate the Captain Toad identity to the level of prominence required for representation in Smash.

 

[Quillion]

As for Bowser Jr. and Captain Toad, Bowser Jr.'s debut in Super Mario Sunshine would give him enough moveset potential on its own to make him worthy of inclusion in Smash, though it definitely helps that he was the primary antagonist in that game and played a major role (Bowser only showed up at the very end, with the game barely hinting at his presence before he showed up). In fact, it was specifically the Sunshine portrayal of Bowser Jr. that I supported for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Captain Toad, on the other hand, really wasn’t all that important in Super Mario Galaxy (though he may or may not be the same Toad who's been a major character in games like Super Mario Bros. 2 (U.S.) and Wario’s Woods, who is certainly important enough for Smash on those grounds). Really, it’s Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad: Treasure Trackers that elevate the Captain Toad identity to the level of prominence required for representation in Smash.

Come to think of it, Bowser Jr. seems to have vanished from the main Mario series. He was a no show for 3D Land, 3D World, and Odyssey straight. He survived in the secondary New Super Mario Bros. series, but it seems that series has come to an end outside of rereleases.

On the other hand Captain Toad just continues to grow in prominence.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Come to think of it, Bowser Jr. seems to have vanished from the main Mario series. He was a no show for 3D Land, 3D World, and Odyssey straight. He survived in the secondary New Super Mario Bros. series, but it seems that series has come to an end outside of rereleases.

On the other hand Captain Toad just continues to grow in prominence.

They leave out Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings purely so they can rotate flavor in an out. They used them in the NSMB games and when they developed Odyssey I guess they left them out so they wouldn't feel overused since they must have known about the NSMBU port.

 

[Quillion]

Does anyone else think Ganondorf should never have gotten that stupid sword in his moveset? I liked playing as the slow and calculating brawler using only his brute physical strength. But now, there's no reason to play that way to get kills since his Smashes are so big and sweeping.

Thankfully they didn't ruin him with a projectile, but the sword was still too much.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Does anyone else think Ganondorf should never have gotten that stupid sword in his moveset? I liked playing as the slow and calculating brawler using only his brute physical strength. But now, there's no reason to play that way to get kills since his Smashes are so big and sweeping.

Thankfully they didn't ruin him with a projectile, but the sword was still too much.

No, I hate Falcondorf.

 

[Calamitas]

Does anyone else think Ganondorf should never have gotten that stupid sword in his moveset? I liked playing as the slow and calculating brawler using only his brute physical strength. But now, there's no reason to play that way to get kills since his Smashes are so big and sweeping.

Thankfully they didn't ruin him with a projectile, but the sword was still too much.

I'd honestly would have preferred it if Ganondorf hadn't made it into Melee, just so that he could've been added to Braw with an unique, sword-featuring moveset.

 

[Quillion]

I'd honestly would have preferred it if Ganondorf hadn't made it into Melee, just so that he could've been added to Braw with an unique, sword-featuring moveset.

Would you have wanted Falcon to have made it into Brawl with a gun-based moveset?

Sometimes serendipity leads to better things.

 

[Calamitas]

Would you have wanted Falcon to have made it into Brawl with a gun-based moveset?

Sometimes serendipity leads to better things.

No, because for Captain Falcon, there is no canonical fighting style that is being delibaretly ignored for the sake of keeping things the same as they were in Melee. Serendipity can lead to better things, sure, but it can also lead to much worse things.

 

[Quillion]

No, because for Captain Falcon, there is no canonical fighting style that is being delibaretly ignored for the sake of keeping things the same as they were in Melee. Serendipity can lead to better things, sure, but it can also lead to much worse things.

I'm sure even you would think that giving Mario his hammer and Zelda back her Light Bow would ruin their respective movesets deapite them being canon, so how does Ganondorf getting his sword NOT ruin his moveset?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'm sure even you would think that giving Mario his hammer and Zelda back her Light Bow would ruin their respective movesets deapite them being canon, so how does Ganondorf getting his sword NOT ruin his moveset?

Zelda should use silver/light arrows in her regular moveset. It's crazy that she doesn't.

 

[Calamitas]

I'm sure even you would think that giving Mario his hammer and Zelda back her Light Bow would ruin their respective movesets deapite them being canon, so how does Ganondorf getting his sword NOT ruin his moveset?

"Ruining Zelda's moveset"? You mean the same Zelda who has been a consistently bad character for three games in a row already, with how good she is in Ultimate still being uncertain? Sure, overhauling her moveset would totally "ruin" her.
As for Mario - hammer's aren't even that big a part of his canonical fighting style, especially not if you contrast them with Ganondorf's magical abilities and swordsmanship that are being ignored in favour of Falcondorf.

 

[Quillion]

"Ruining Zelda's moveset"? You mean the same Zelda who has been a consistently bad character for three games in a row already, with how good she is in Ultimate still being uncertain? Sure, overhauling her moveset would totally "ruin" her.
As for Mario - hammer's aren't even that big a part of his canonical fighting style, especially not if you contrast them with Ganondorf's magical abilities and swordsmanship that are being ignored in favour of Falcondorf.

Mario's favored method of melee combat is hammers. It doesn't seem like much since it never crops up in the main series, but it's consistent throughout the RPGs and the classic style Donkey Kong games.

And yet you clearly don't want him to have a stomp dair like Ganondorf. Hell, Doc got the stomp, and he can never use it canonically, but no one minds.

So why ruin Ganondorf's awesome moveset for the sake of canon?

 

[Calamitas]

Mario's favored method of melee combat is hammers. It doesn't seem like much since it never crops up in the main series, but it's consistent throughout the RPGs and the classic style Donkey Kong games.

And yet you clearly don't want him to have a stomp dair like Ganondorf. Hell, Doc got the stomp, and he can never use it canonically, but no one minds.

So why ruin Ganondorf's awesome moveset for the sake of canon?

Don't go around putting words in my mouth. In regards to Mario's hammer, he hasn't actually used it in any of the mainline platformer games, and it being used in the RPGs is only a reference back to the original Donkey Kong. Him using a hammer is part of his character, sure, but it's extremely minor.

And "ruining his moveset for the sake of canon"? Are you for real? The entire Smash series is a love letter to the various Nintendo franchises, and yet Ganondorf's moveset doesn't care for that in the slightest. With your reasoning, what's the point of giving any character a moveset that properly portrays how they fight in canon? As long as it's cool, it doesn't matter, right?