Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part 5: Kirby (with polls)

Has Sakurai been modest toward Kirby in Smash?

  • No, but he needs to be more modest

    Votes: 4 5.0%
  • No, but it's fine

    Votes: 6 7.5%
  • Yes, but it's fine

    Votes: 17 21.3%
  • Yes, and he should be less modest

    Votes: 53 66.3%

  • Total voters
    80
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#41
There's a lack of Kirby assists in general, so I don't see what's wrong here.



Well, if you're talking more about the games that aren't Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star, I can see your point. Perhaps he has actively stopped paying attention to Kirby so that he can stop himself from interfering with his old series?
I mean a lot of Kirby games were in production at the same time as his, plus he even a supervisor for Amazing Mirror, and Dedede’s voice actor for Kirby 64. Also if he put in Final Smashes based on the new titles, he clearly knows that more have been made and seems to have followed them to a degree. I think Squeak Squad and some new titles got a trophy or two in Brawl, along with stickers of course. Sakurai just doesn’t use anything from the newer titles outside of his very minimal selection were the biggest thing they get is a Final Smash at best. What about stages, items, assists, maybe a character, it just be a nicer way of showing off the complete Kirby franchise and not same two games, with an assist for Adventure and one item from Air Ride.

As for your point on assists, I’ll agree that Kirby should have more, but the selection only reinforces the two games only policy, other than Nightmare, the other two assists are literally just generic enemies from Super Star. Like, why? He doesn’t even use a big character like Marx, opting to use a generic Knuckle Joe and Chef Kawasaki instead. That spot could have easily had the more interesting animal buddies, Maglor (a character who is literally requested to be playable heavily in Japan), Taranza, Susie, Daroach, Gooey, Adeline, literally anyone who had a prominent role in Kirby titles.

I think my frustration comes from the fact that Kirby has had so much history, and is now big enough to have so much more, but continues to promote the same two games over and over. While I do love the effort to make the final smashes more modern and represent different titles, I can’t tell if that actually makes the situation worse. Like, see we’re aware that other Kirby titles exist, but here’s another Dreamland stage for 3DS and the millionth Super Star stage for Wii U with the Great Cave Offensive.

I go into each Smash title feeling disappointed by Kirby’s support because I can pretty much guess what will happen as we get the same 3 characters because the 4th in the Dreamland crew doesn’t exist. We’ll get another Super Star stage as we slowly bleed that title dry, so you better hope it’s a universal Kirby stage like Dedede’s Castle, over another Great Cave Offensive type stage. The assist will always be from the games Sakurai made, and will most likely be a generic enemy, over a recognizable face. It makes Kirby’s role in Smash boring, which hurts when I’ve always viewed Kirby as the 4th pillar franchise of Smash, the final all-star that defined the roster and game, up there with Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon, just like Brawl’s first trailer portrayed it as. So to see it get stuck in the past while its fellow Nintendo mascots move on and get stages from new and old titles, along with assists, characters, and so much more makes me sad. Kirby deserves better, and it deserves the same treatment as Mario Zelda, and Pokemon, yet it seems Fire Emblem (No hate towards it) and lesser franchises get treated better.
 

Quillion

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#42
Kirby deserves better, and it deserves the same treatment as Mario Zelda, and Pokemon, yet it seems Fire Emblem (No hate towards it) and lesser franchises get treated better.
Mario respects its entire history very well and has a mix of old and new characters.

Zelda ignores its one-shots, has half its cast be incarnations of one character with the same specials, its main villain and deuteragonist have next to none of their canon abilities, and a character that is severely outdated.

Pokémon has a clear bias towards its first installments with only token reps from select later ones. Its sole Gen 2 rep is directly related to a Gen 1 rep.

Which one do you want Kirby to be like?
 
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#43
Mario respects its entire history very well and has a mix of old and new characters.

Zelda ignores its one-shots, has half its cast be incarnations of one character with the same specials, its main villain and deuteragonist have next to none of their canon abilities, and a character that is severely outdated.

Pokémon has a clear bias towards its first installments with only token reps from select later ones. Its sole Gen 2 rep is directly related to a Gen 1 rep.

Which one do you want Kirby to be like?
It’ll probably be a Zelda, while I can’t say Zelda is represented the best character wise, I feel that’s because one-shots are a majority of its characters.

And no Zelda doesn’t ignore one-shots, it has an assist based on each console entry after Ocarina, with Skull Kid and Moon for Majora, Tingle for Wind Waker, Midna for Twilight Princess, and Girahim for Skyward Sword. It also designed many of its cast members to represent different installments in Ultimate, BOTW Link, Link to the Past Zelda, Ocarina Ganondorf, Ocarina/Majora Young Link, Wind Waker Toon Link, and BOTW Sheik.

Zelda also has stages based on Ocarina, Majora, Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and now BOTW.

Add Zelda’s down attack which is a clear reference to Phantom Hour Glass, and that leaves us with a total of 9 Zelda titles firmly represented in Smash.

Kirby has like 4 at most since some references you really have to stretch, like Dedede’s Final Smash which is a combination of multiple things but is generally considered a Smash original. It’s made even worse by the fact that I’m pretty sure Kirby has more titles than Zelda, yet Zelda has more significant references to separate entries than Kirby does.

I know Zelda isn’t the best represented character wise, but give Sakurai credit, everything else is on point to represent the full extent of the series while Kirby is stuck in a 3 game loop for everything. The same goes for the other two, Pokemon is well represented having stages from at least 5-6 gens, having Pokemon from each generation, and will probably have 5 generations worth of characters by the end of Ultimate as we all know Sun & Moon will get a character.

Really just add Bandana Dee, some non-Sakurai Kirby stages, and some assists that reference the dream friends and I’d be fine.
 

11th

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#44
Mogisthelioma Mogisthelioma : Psst, it was the 25th anniversary. The 30th isn't until 2022.

Day 2 (Music):
I haven't heard the album in a while, so I'd have to go back and re-listen to it... I remember there being a lot of good songs on it, but I don't think there was anything that I'd prefer over the game versions for Smash specifically. But I think I can confidently say that, for boss themes, I'd absolutely love to have "C-R-O-W-N-E-D", though I don't really have many music wishes for the series beyond the general "more modern Kirby music".

Day 3 (Echo Galacta):
Ehhh... I'd really prefer to get a fourth non-clone/semi character first. If Kirby were in a similar position to Mario where most of the main cast was already in, I would tolerate it, but in it's current state it seems like the easy way out. If he did make it, I guess I'd prefer him to have less cloned moveset if possible, though admittedly I'm not quite sold on his inclusion in general.
 

Quillion

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#45
It’ll probably be a Zelda, while I can’t say Zelda is represented the best character wise, I feel that’s because one-shots are a majority of its characters.

And no Zelda doesn’t ignore one-shots, it has an assist based on each console entry after Ocarina, with Skull Kid and Moon for Majora, Tingle for Wind Waker, Midna for Twilight Princess, and Girahim for Skyward Sword. It also designed many of its cast members to represent different installments in Ultimate, BOTW Link, Link to the Past Zelda, Ocarina Ganondorf, Ocarina/Majora Young Link, Wind Waker Toon Link, and BOTW Sheik.

Zelda also has stages based on Ocarina, Majora, Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and now BOTW.

Add Zelda’s down attack which is a clear reference to Phantom Hour Glass, and that leaves us with a total of 9 Zelda titles firmly represented in Smash.

Kirby has like 4 at most since some references you really have to stretch, like Dedede’s Final Smash which is a combination of multiple things but is generally considered a Smash original. It’s made even worse by the fact that I’m pretty sure Kirby has more titles than Zelda, yet Zelda has more significant references to separate entries than Kirby does.

I know Zelda isn’t the best represented character wise, but give Sakurai credit, everything else is on point to represent the full extent of the series while Kirby is stuck in a 3 game loop for everything. The same goes for the other two, Pokemon is well represented having stages from at least 5-6 gens, having Pokemon from each generation, and will probably have 5 generations worth of characters by the end of Ultimate as we all know Sun & Moon will get a character.

Really just add Bandana Dee, some non-Sakurai Kirby stages, and some assists that reference the dream friends and I’d be fine.
Ah, so you look at the big picture. Certainly a broader view than most take.

I stand by my opinion that there's nothing a stage from Return or Triple Delxe can add to the series, as it's most likely going to be another grassy field with Whispy, or just another grassy field stage.

But there certainly can stand to be more assist trophies. The one-shots who became Dream Friends are perfect fodder for that.
 

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#46
Ah, so you look at the big picture. Certainly a broader view than most take.

I stand by my opinion that there's nothing a stage from Return or Triple Delxe can add to the series, as it's most likely going to be another grassy field with Whispy, or just another grassy field stage.

But there certainly can stand to be more assist trophies. The one-shots who became Dream Friends are perfect fodder for that.
I have to disagree. If they added, say, Royal Road, that would be amazing.
 
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#47
Ah, so you look at the big picture. Certainly a broader view than most take.

I stand by my opinion that there's nothing a stage from Return or Triple Delxe can add to the series, as it's most likely going to be another grassy field with Whispy, or just another grassy field stage.

But there certainly can stand to be more assist trophies. The one-shots who became Dream Friends are perfect fodder for that.
I mean, I said non-Sakurai titles or non-Super Star primarily. There are plenty of Kirby games with tons of stage potential such as the aforementioned Epic Yarn which will look interesting no matter what you base the level on. Also the Mirror world has a very unique look that could work well. Also with Ultimate they have Robobot which adds an interesting design to everything with numerous mechanical parts.

And yeah I do look at the big picture as Kirby doesn’t have a huge main cast by any means, with Bandana Dee basically being the only missing member who appears in multiple titles with prominent roles, ranging from a helpful partner to a full on playable character. Certainly better than the other Kirby characters who are relegated to cameos or end game boss fights. I guess just branching Kirby out through stages, assists, even enemies in modes like Smash Run would really go a long way in showing off the full series.
 
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#48
I think he has indeed been modest, but as far characters are concerned, I'm fine.
The most likely/popular choice is Bandana Dee, and I'm really not big on him for multiple reasons y'all have already heard from other people, and since it's just a opinion matter I won't get into it.
My most wanted are Marx or Adeleine + Ribbon, but I understand they're unlikely, for base game at least
Kirby should definitely get more representation in stages, though. I mean only the GB/SNES eras are represented, I want me some Return To Dream Land or Triple Deluxe in stages
 

Mogisthelioma

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#49
Sorry everyone! I had a lot of work to do Wednesday and Thursday and had to prioritize my time.

Today's topic is....
If Adeline was ever represented in Smash, would you like just Adeline, or the Adeline and Ribbon duo in Star Allies?
 

Zinith

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#50
Since you skipped Yoshi, it just begs the question. Why do you feel that only franchises with more than one fighter deserve to be in this series you made? Do the one-rep franchises not deserve similar attention? And why is the standard fighters? Both Yoshi and F-Zero have a considerable amount of stages despite only having one character each. Also Animal Crossing would've been excluded until Villager was announced. I want to know
 

Mogisthelioma

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#51
Since you skipped Yoshi, it just begs the question. Why do you feel that only franchises with more than one fighter deserve to be in this series you made? Do the one-rep franchises not deserve similar attention? And why is the standard fighters? Both Yoshi and F-Zero have a considerable amount of stages despite only having one character each. Also Animal Crossing would've been excluded until Villager was announced. I want to know
Like I said before, it's not that I think they deserve any less, it's that then there would be too many series to count and I wanted to find a way of slimming that. This was after Isabelle was announced, and I though 12 series was a good number. I'm planning on doing a 13th thread for all other series, with tons of discussion.
But if you want to make your own thread on any of the series I'll be doing in thread 13, feel free!
 

SupriceSupplies

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#52
Sorry everyone! I had a lot of work to do Wednesday and Thursday and had to prioritize my time.

Today's topic is....
If Adeline was ever represented in Smash, would you like just Adeline, or the Adeline and Ribbon duo in Star Allies?
It really depends. If we're talking playable character, then I'd much prefer the Adeline and Ribbon combo like how Rosalina and Luma are considered a duo in smash 4. (As for gameplay and moveset, I'd have no idea.) I just have to wonder what a Final Smash could be like. ...A cutscene Final Smash with the two blowing up 64's Dark Star? I dunno. Or maybe have Adeline draw a second Crystal Gun and have the two go to the opposite sides of the stage and just blast anyone inbetween them.
If we're talking roles like an assist, then I'd say just Adeline taking over Isabelle's smash 4 role by drawing food items. (Or maybe enemies? That could work.) Then again, we already have Kawasaki fulfilling the role of food giver. Or we could just have Ribbon shoot crystal shards around that's also cool.
If either were to get trophies, then have them seperate.
 

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#53
Like I said before, it's not that I think they deserve any less, it's that then there would be too many series to count and I wanted to find a way of slimming that. This was after Isabelle was announced, and I though 12 series was a good number. I'm planning on doing a 13th thread for all other series, with tons of discussion.
But if you want to make your own thread on any of the series I'll be doing in thread 13, feel free!
Well considering the way that these topics are modded so that there's no duplicates, I don't think I even CAN. I just feel that if projects like this are put forward, I'd like to see each series treated equally, and I always appreciate people who put in the most effort to do so.
 
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#54
Sorry everyone! I had a lot of work to do Wednesday and Thursday and had to prioritize my time.

Today's topic is....
If Adeline was ever represented in Smash, would you like just Adeline, or the Adeline and Ribbon duo in Star Allies?
I haven't played Star Allies so I'm not sure how much my opinion counts for, but I think I'd prefer them separate, it feels weird to me that characters in Star Allies are lumped together as one entity when they were independent characters in the source games. I get that they're representing Kirby 64 as a whole but Adeline is in other games besides Kirby 64, granted, with a shorter name, but i'm pretty sure it's the same character. Ribbon would have made a good final Smash for Kirby in the Brawl days, making like the final battle of K64, but I think she's missed the boat for Smash, unless she really does get paired up with Adeline.
 

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#55
Bandana Dee this or next game
Sakurai holding back on Kirby yet going all out for Kid Icarus makes me feel a bit sorry for the Kirby series.
Anyways please give me Adeleine+Ribbon assist trophy please!
Stepchildren need to get the super love as quick and simple as possible
 

hustler713

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#56
I only played the GBA Games and 64, but i still think that Smash already has the most interesting Chars from the Kirby Franchise.

I'm sadly not really educated on Bandana Dee, but even without him i think the Series is well represented in Smash overall.
 
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#58
I'm sadly not really educated on Bandana Dee, but even without him i think the Series is well represented in Smash overall.
It ain’t. Sure you can have that but it feels wrong.

Bandana Dee has established himself as a 4th member of sorts, to me and many modern Kirby fans not having him is like the Avengers without Thor, sure you have the favorites like Hulk, Iron Man, and Captain America, but you’ll always feel a sort of absence.

Return to Dreamland marked a true return to form for the series after years of the series being mismanaged and having ‘good titles.’ Kirby was basically made into an experiment for awhile, doing things that were radically different from the norm with numerous spinoffs. The main titles were mainly okay around the time, but they had the issue that they went backwards. Instead of being the evolution of Super Star, they were trying to reach it. Copy abilities had weaker move sets unlike Super Star’s way of handeling them, and many copy abilities introduced lacked charm or recognizability. Then Returns happened, and everything changed. Kirby was back on top, the gameplay felt more inline with Super Star, it finally felt like Super Star was being matched/topped and there we got Bandana Dee.

Bandana Dee highlights Kirby’s return, starting with the Wii title back in 2011, the title that would make Kirby one of Nintendo’s biggest powerhouses. After that I remember the release of Triple Deluxe, I couldn’t even find a copy at GameStop, the game was so popular. Bandana Waddle Dee is the true representative of the modern titles, in the same way the Awakening trio is to modern FE. It has been almost 10 years since the Kirby revival, and Bandana Waddle Dee has been the front runner of it being in all modern titles, with two major playable roles, and a spin-off that is essentially his game (Battle Royal).

Bandana Waddle Dee has been a major player for about 1/3 of Kirby’s history, and the 3rd that is the most highly rated and put Kirby on top having consistently great titles and big sellers. I think he has definitely earned his spot in Smash as he is an important and iconic character in the series.
 

Quillion

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#61
It ain’t. Sure you can have that but it feels wrong.

Bandana Dee has established himself as a 4th member of sorts, to me and many modern Kirby fans not having him is like the Avengers without Thor, sure you have the favorites like Hulk, Iron Man, and Captain America, but you’ll always feel a sort of absence.

Return to Dreamland marked a true return to form for the series after years of the series being mismanaged and having ‘good titles.’ Kirby was basically made into an experiment for awhile, doing things that were radically different from the norm with numerous spinoffs. The main titles were mainly okay around the time, but they had the issue that they went backwards. Instead of being the evolution of Super Star, they were trying to reach it. Copy abilities had weaker move sets unlike Super Star’s way of handeling them, and many copy abilities introduced lacked charm or recognizability. Then Returns happened, and everything changed. Kirby was back on top, the gameplay felt more inline with Super Star, it finally felt like Super Star was being matched/topped and there we got Bandana Dee.

Bandana Dee highlights Kirby’s return, starting with the Wii title back in 2011, the title that would make Kirby one of Nintendo’s biggest powerhouses. After that I remember the release of Triple Deluxe, I couldn’t even find a copy at GameStop, the game was so popular. Bandana Waddle Dee is the true representative of the modern titles, in the same way the Awakening trio is to modern FE. It has been almost 10 years since the Kirby revival, and Bandana Waddle Dee has been the front runner of it being in all modern titles, with two major playable roles, and a spin-off that is essentially his game (Battle Royal).

Bandana Waddle Dee has been a major player for about 1/3 of Kirby’s history, and the 3rd that is the most highly rated and put Kirby on top having consistently great titles and big sellers. I think he has definitely earned his spot in Smash as he is an important and iconic character in the series.
Here's something I wonder: do Kirby fans even like the idea of Bandana Dee being the series' fourth main character? Non-fans think of him as "roster filler", but do fans think of the Dee as a waste of potential stealing a main character slot from someone else?
 
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#62
Here's something I wonder: do Kirby fans even like the idea of Bandana Dee being the series' fourth main character? Non-fans think of him as "roster filler", but do fans think of the Dee as a waste of potential stealing a main character slot from someone else?
Not really, it could have been anyone who got the spot, but it is nice to see it represented by one of the series most iconic species with a unique weapon too. Also we have grown to love his character so much I wouldn't ask for anyone else.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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#63
Here's something I wonder: do Kirby fans even like the idea of Bandana Dee being the series' fourth main character? Non-fans think of him as "roster filler", but do fans think of the Dee as a waste of potential stealing a main character slot from someone else?
As a Kirby fan myself, Dee seems like the best option for a Kirby newcomer. No one else uses a spear, or a parasol. And aside from that, he's the most recurring Kirby protagonist who isn't in Smash. He would be a lot more than just filler.

(Remove Corrin and add Dee. That's my one request.)
 

Quillion

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#64
As a Kirby fan myself, Dee seems like the best option for a Kirby newcomer. No one else uses a spear, or a parasol. And aside from that, he's the most recurring Kirby protagonist who isn't in Smash. He would be a lot more than just filler.

(Remove Corrin and add Dee. That's my one request.)
That doesn't answer my question.

My question is, "Does Bandana Dee deserve to be the fouth main character of Kirby in his series over anyone else, like say, Gooey?"
 
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#66
Here's something I wonder: do Kirby fans even like the idea of Bandana Dee being the series' fourth main character? Non-fans think of him as "roster filler", but do fans think of the Dee as a waste of potential stealing a main character slot from someone else?
Going to be honest, I personally slightly prefer Gooey myself what with his original player 2 status, ridiculous face and being the 'good' version of a major villain, but Dee does deserve the position of player four too. Waddle Dees are such a huge part of the Kirby franchise and it's really cool to see what is essentially the lowest minion character rise up the ranks to be able to fight on equal footing with the likes of Metaknight and Kirby as a warrior.

In an ideal world Gooey and Dee would be both considered a major character in the Kirby series in the same way Yoshi and Toad(hey that's me!) are considered major characters in the Mario series.

GooeyandDee sounds like it'd be a good Kirby universe alt for me actually.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#67
(If you haven't visited the Bandana Waddle Dee support thread, you should! Link in the signature.)

Other than Gooey, are there other Kirby characters that could act nicely as a "P2?"
 

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#68
(If you haven't visited the Bandana Waddle Dee support thread, you should! Link in the signature.)

Other than Gooey, are there other Kirby characters that could act nicely as a "P2?"
I'm not going to count most random enemies that you can make into allies in Super Star (Ultra) and Star Allies since I'd personally like to mention standout characters. I'm also going to assume from your wording that I also needn't mention Bandana Dee's role in Rainbow Curse (and to a certain extent, Battle Royale, but he only appears in the game's story mode and isn't actually playable for some odd reason).

...
Although I must admit the only one that comes to mind is Prince Fluff, being the Player 2 of Epic Yarn and functioning identically to Kirby. (Side note, with Epic Yarn getting a rerelease next year, I think Fluff/Yarn Kirby actually has a possible, albeit not probable shot if Sakurai wants to look at recent releases for playable DLC characters. An Epic Yarn stage was scrapped during smash 4 development after Woolly World was announced, after all.) I'm probably forgetting about someone that isn't a recolored Kirby from Amazing Mirror or Return to Dreamland, but right now he's the only one to come to mind.

EDIT: I may have misinterpreted the question. Meta Knight and Dedede are usually seen doing their own things, and we don't know what most of the one-offs are doing. With that being said, the only ones that come to mind are the animal buddies. But considering these are all seperate characters, it's hard to just pick one of these.
 
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#69
Going to second Prince Fluff as a good P2 option outside Gooey and Dee. Do we know if he's back for the 3DS port? I only remember seeing Kirby in the trailers...

As for the animal buddies: personally I think the obvious animal buddy of choice is Rick the Hamster.
He's the only animal buddy who got a trophy in Melee and in Star Allies Rick is the most default character in the Rick, Kine and Coo trio doing all the walking and land based adventuring. He can even jump so it's not like Coo must replace his jump.
It's only when you need to fly does Coo turn up, or dive into a water section does Kine show up in the game. Rick's also easily the most famous animal buddy to my knowledge(unless you count Gooey as one).
 
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#70
Here's something I wonder: do Kirby fans even like the idea of Bandana Dee being the series' fourth main character? Non-fans think of him as "roster filler", but do fans think of the Dee as a waste of potential stealing a main character slot from someone else?
Ummm.. I think even non-fans enjoy Bandana Waddle Dee. I have a friend who said that he did a one time play through of Star Allies and he played as Dee the entire time saying he was the most fun out of the bunch. He also really liked the idea of Bandana for Smash.

Bandana Dee was also the 4th most popular character on the Japanese fighter ballot polls for Smash according to Source Gaming.

Bandana Dee has a huge following and honestly deserves it. He is the ‘new age’ character, the character brought it to breath new life into the franchise. Bandana Dee was the Kirby Team’s attempt and success at bringing Kirby back after years of him fading out. To answer your question, at the beginning he may have been a roster filler, he was recently brought into Kirby canon through Super Star Ultra, so the team decided to give him a weapon that was unique and make him the 4th playable character.

To counter that point though, I see Dee as a Luigi case, as Luigi was always treated like an extra in most Mario games, the obligatory player 2 of sorts, but then Luigi’s Mansion came and gave him his own distinct personality and broke him away from Mario. Dee is the same, The Kirby Team has worked hard to make him the 4th member, and have brought him back a ton of times to add more, with Batlke Royal being Dee’s Luigi’s Mansion, as he is given a full speaking role that adds much more depth and character than any Kirby character previously had. I guess the question for Bandana Dee would be if he was nothing more than a roster filler, why keep bringing him back, why go through the effort of giving him a distinct personality if he was just there to be a player 4?

I’m both surprised and not by how the Smash Community sees Bandana Dee. Most see him as a roster filler, but those same people usually admit to not having played a Kirby game since Super Star. Bandana Dee’s a new character, so people seem to trash on him before they even know him, and they don’t see the history he has in the franchise, being a major player for at least a good 3rd of Kirby’s life.
 
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#71
I'm a Kirby fan. I've played all the Kirby games. Maybe I'm crazy or something, but it never seemed to me like Bandana Dee was all that important until I started reading Smash speculation online. I always thought he was a lame choice for RtDL, only slightly better than the Toads in NSMB, and I would've preferred pretty much anyone else--Adeleine, Gooey, or the Animal Buddies would have been much more fun allies. So I guess you can count me in as a Kirby fan who feels the "Player 4" should've been someone else.

All that being said, it bears repeating that Bandana Dee was only Kirby's "Player 4" in one game. I think fans overstate his importance.
 

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#72
I'm a Kirby fan. I've played all the Kirby games. Maybe I'm crazy or something, but it never seemed to me like Bandana Dee was all that important until I started reading Smash speculation online. I always thought he was a lame choice for RtDL, only slightly better than the Toads in NSMB, and I would've preferred pretty much anyone else--Adeleine, Gooey, or the Animal Buddies would have been much more fun allies. So I guess you can count me in as a Kirby fan who feels the "Player 4" should've been someone else.

All that being said, it bears repeating that Bandana Dee was only Kirby's "Player 4" in one game. I think fans overstate his importance.
I personally would have to disagree, being chosen over Meta Knight or Dedede as the main co-op character in Rainbow Curse, being Kirby's main ally in Battle Royale (despite not being playable for some odd reason), and being a launch-day Dream Friend in Star Allies, on top of being typically seen alongside Meta Knight and Dedede on promotional material and especially in-game art (Planet Robobot and Star Allies come to mind, as well as a transformation of the stone ability), I do think HAL at the very least seems to be treating him as a big deal as of late. But his big roles have admittedly been very recent, and I can't really blame anyone for thinking he hasn't reached Meta Knight or Dedede status quite yet. (I'm still holding onto hope that Dee will get his own extra mode in a future mainline Kirby game like Dedede had once and Meta Knight thrice. God damnit Star Allies it was the perfect opportunity to give him his chance. ;-; )
 
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#73
When I look for "important characters" in a series, I'm looking for substantial, meaningful appearances. Promotional art and cameos don't really contribute to this. Take a look at the other major Kirby characters: Dedede and Meta Knight both have important roles in new and old games that couldn't have been taken by anyone else. Bandana Dee, even in his "major" appearances, is always just hanging around. There's never been a time where you couldn't remove Bandana Dee from the game without really losing anything.

Could you imagine any other character stealing all the food in Kirby's Dream Land? Or anyone else taking on the stoic and distant persona of a reluctant yet avid ally other than Meta Knight? Bandana Dee just doesn't possess that kind of irreplaceability, at least not yet. If we ever get a game where the main villain kidnaps Bandana Dee, and the bonus mode has you play through the entire adventure from Dee's point of view as an escape attempt or perhaps a prequel story, I think that would help his character a lot.

Part of what I love about Kirby is that nothing is really as simple as it looks. All the villains have complex backstories and motivations, and the side characters are rich with nuance. I don't think Bandandee is at that level yet, but I think he will be eventually. HAL Labs simply has to figure out just what to do with him.
 
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SupriceSupplies

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 4, 2018
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#74
I can definitely see where you're coming from, and yeah, outside of arguably Battle Royale, his roles haven't been too... impactful, I will admit. Modern Kirby especially has put some detail into its villains, so I can see why they might be more appealing. That being said, I just find Dee's story from Super Star Ultra onward kind of endearing, a bit of an underdog story as implied by his appearance in Super Star Ultra, figurine's description in Rainbow Curse and the Apple Juice Song. It's exceedingly simple and nothing even close as to say, Taranza and Haltmann, but I'm glad he's got some development nonetheless. Again, it really is nothing in terms of roles in the games, but I do like him as a character despite his not-so-plot-relevant roles. And I really do hope that HAL does something special with him in a future mainline game.
 
Joined
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#75
I'm a Kirby fan. I've played all the Kirby games. Maybe I'm crazy or something, but it never seemed to me like Bandana Dee was all that important until I started reading Smash speculation online. I always thought he was a lame choice for RtDL, only slightly better than the Toads in NSMB, and I would've preferred pretty much anyone else--Adeleine, Gooey, or the Animal Buddies would have been much more fun allies. So I guess you can count me in as a Kirby fan who feels the "Player 4" should've been someone else.

All that being said, it bears repeating that Bandana Dee was only Kirby's "Player 4" in one game. I think fans overstate his importance.
If you want to be specific, Bandana Dee was TECHNICALLY also Player 4 (and 2 and 3) in Rainbow Curse. But much like Return to Dreamland, you could play the entire game without him, to a much greater extent since he'll only appear in the intro.

I feel like the main issue I have against Bandana Dee is that in the 7 years he's been important, he has not developed enough as a character. While I'll give HAL credit for establishing part of his personality, much of his self-strengthening goal can already be seen with his role in Return to Dreamland. The latest thing I recall being original to Bandana Dee is that he has a custom Parasol introduced in Robobot. That may not even count given Battle Royale's playable Waddle Dee and all.

I honestly do think the Toad comparison is fairly accurate, as well. Bear in mind, I like Toads well enough to think they'd be cool in Smash. But if they're not Smash worthy in Sakurai's eyes, they're not gonna be Smash-bound. And this is the problem I think Bandana Dee will run into. If Sakurai sees him as a glorified generic species member and not the character he should be, he won't make it.

And keep in mind, I am aware that he may be one of the only realistic choices Kirby has timing-wise, despite those theories. That might mean we won't get a Kirby rep again, but this may be exactly what happens. It's unfortunate, too, because at the very least the Waddle Dees deserve a representative for Smash to make up for the deconstruction of Dedede's Side-Special (though Bandana Dee is not my first choice.)
 
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Iko_MattOrr
#78
Sorry everyone! I had a lot of work to do Wednesday and Thursday and had to prioritize my time.

Today's topic is....
If Adeline was ever represented in Smash, would you like just Adeline, or the Adeline and Ribbon duo in Star Allies?
As a huge Adeleine fan, and a supporter of her since Brawl, I want this character in Smash more than anyone else (in general, not only Kirby).
Anyway, to reply this question (maybe a bit late):
Without any doubt, Adeleine & Ribbon (as a duo)!

I think that she alone has gameplay potential, and personality, but Ribbon enhances her personality and iconicity.
Before Star Allies, Adeleine appeared in 2 games (one time as Ado); In Kirby's Dreamland 3 she was just a boss, but was more important than the other bosses, about on the same level as King Dedede (Ado gets the spotlight in the true ending cutscene), while in Kirby 64 she's the 4th main character (also playable in minigames). Though, she was used more as a friendly character with little story involvement, and while she was important and iconic, she was still lacking a memorable moment like characters such as Marx or Magolor have.
Ribbon is the character who drives the plot in Kirby 64, and her story of Ripple Star's invasion and the crystal, is just as memorable as Marx's story (for example). Having Adeleine and Ribbon together, is merging an unique and iconic character with a lot of original gameplay potential (Adeleine), with a character who had a memorable story and adventure with Kirby (Ribbon).
This is character-wise; gameplay-wise then, Adeleine & Ribbon as a duo have still more potential than Adeleine alone. Adeleine has potential, but all what she does is paint and summon. You summon creatures, you reference the rainbow rope from Canvas/Rainbow Curse, then...? Ribbon adds the crystal and her magic into the mix, increasing the variety of their moveset by A LOT, making them a complete character.

This is a problem I have with Bandana Dee. He has a spear, he can do several spear-based moves... and then? Bandana Dee lacks a "Ribbon" to make his moveset shine and be recognizable in the sea of the roster.
I mean, every character has a gimmick to make their moveset unique... even Little Mac has the KO punch, or Cpt Falcon, while he's all based on punches and kicks, he has the speed and the iconic fire effects, and the voice to make him memorable; IMO Bandana Dee has nothing that makes him stand out.
I don't like Bandana Dee, honestly I see him as a soulless character and I have always been against his inclusion in Smash and in the Kirby series as a whole, especially when this means taking away the spotlight from other characters with more personality and more unique skills.

One side note about Adeleine: I think that she would be the best character to fit Smash because Smash is a crossover game where fanservice is one of the most important elements; Adeleine's gimmick is to paint and summon creatures from Kirby games: this would allow her to represent many iconic enemies and characters from the Kirby series in Smash (such as Kracko, Ice Dragon, Bronto Burt, and more), something that normally you would only see in the trophy section of the game, or some of them as assist trophies/bosses if they are lucky.

Aside of Adeleine, other characters I would like in the roster are:
-Marx or Magolor (I see them as similar characters so I'd rather have only one of them)
-Dark Matter
-Galacta Knight or Dark Meta Knight (Echo or semiclone, they both have potential to get different moves)

But if Adeleine is added in the game, I wouldn't mind Claycia & Elline as an echo or something, if it's even possible (due to body proportions and animations being completely different).

If I was Sakurai, I would have done a double addition and put Adeleine & Ribbon, and Marx in the roster, as among the characters I mentioned, those are the most deserving IMO.
 
Joined
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#79
I can't help but agree with the majority of your points Iko, even if I was a lot easier on the guy. There are just so many creative and fun characters in the Kirby characters and the one most people choose is...a Waddle Dee with a spear. I'd say Adeleine and Marx are my top two choices from Kirby as far as new movesets go.

For some reason I've become infatuated with the idea of Dark Meta Knight as an echo. He's not a very imaginative character and I'd obviously prefer someone else with a unique moveset, but I just think it'd be fun to have him on the roster. In Star Allies he basically just plays like Meta Knight but better, so just do that!
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
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#80
I mean, every character has a gimmick to make their moveset unique... even Little Mac has the KO punch, or Cpt Falcon, while he's all based on punches and kicks, he has the speed and the iconic fire effects, and the voice to make him memorable; IMO Bandana Dee has nothing that makes him stand out.
I don't like Bandana Dee, honestly I see him as a soulless character and I have always been against his inclusion in Smash and in the Kirby series as a whole, especially when this means taking away the spotlight from other characters with more personality and more unique skills.
We're still lacking in a spear user, though. Even if you may argue that sword users are functionally identical, none of them are pure "stabby" fighters like a spear wielder could be.
 
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