Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part 5: Kirby (with polls)

[SupriceSupplies]

Spoiler: Small moveset essay

Regarding moveset potential, if SSF2 is any indication, beam attacks can also be incorporated alongside his spear and parasol when taking creative liberties. Bandana Dee was kind of made as a Waddle Dee poster boy if Star Allies' pause screens are any indication, and with them being iconic to the series, it is something I can definitely see happening.
If Robin, Ness, Lucas, and to a certain extent Simon mean anything, I don't think beam attacks is an out-there concept, even if it isn't my favoured idea. Although having him use his spear and parasol alongside Return to Dreamland's items and Rainbow Curse's transformations is something I'd much prefer to see. Or if he doesn't make the base roster, some attacks can also be taken from the two abilities in Battle Royale, alongside attacks derived from Friend Formations, as Dee has become Kirby's main ally at this point so I feel like it could work, and elemental effects from Star Allies.

To be fair, I don't think "Just has his spear" is a valid argument (even if it is his primary weapon, like with Dedede mostly using his hammer and Meta Knight the Galaxia), although I wouldn't mind it being just his moveset being just that as the spear is my favourite martial weapon. But it would leave alot of his other abilities in the dust, which would be a massive waste of potential.

Don't get me wrong, Kirby, like with Zelda, has a vast amount of characters with unique abilities to offer, and if handled correctly, could make for interesting fighters. The reason I prefer Dee over the majority of Kirby characters is because he brings various new abilities to the table, while still keeping it simple. I'm of the opinion having some sort of innate "gimmick" shouldn't be a major factor for a character's uniqueness as long as the playstyle they bring is interesting enough. (And besides, if you REALLY want a gimmick he can still bring some through having the parasol work as a shield from above and the sides, and having him slow his descent with it, or if he doesn't make the base roster, have him use various different elemental buffs as a stance system sacrificing a portion of damage for stuff like a chance to freeze, a burn damage over time effect, more hitstun with electricity, windboxes, or splash damage with water, as examples.)

Anyway, regarding boss music, I'd be stoked if even one of the following three could make it in:

Spoiler: Songs. Includes spoilers for Planet Robobot and Battle Royale.

Also Mogisthelioma you might want to fix the link in your signature, it leads to the 94th page of the thread. (Unless that was intentional in which case just ignore me.)

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Spoiler: Small moveset essay

Regarding moveset potential, if SSF2 is any indication, beam attacks can also be incorporated alongside his spear and parasol when taking creative liberties. Bandana Dee was kind of made as a Waddle Dee poster boy if Star Allies' pause screens are any indication, and with them being iconic to the series, it is something I can definitely see happening.
If Robin, Ness, Lucas, and to a certain extent Simon mean anything, I don't think beam attacks is an out-there concept, even if it isn't my favoured idea. Although having him use his spear and parasol alongside Return to Dreamland's items and Rainbow Curse's transformations is something I'd much prefer to see. Or if he doesn't make the base roster, some attacks can also be taken from the two abilities in Battle Royale, alongside attacks derived from Friend Formations, as Dee has become Kirby's main ally at this point so I feel like it could work, and elemental effects from Star Allies.

To be fair, I don't think "Just has his spear" is a valid argument (even if it is his primary weapon, like with Dedede mostly using his hammer and Meta Knight the Galaxia), although I wouldn't mind it being just his moveset being just that as the spear is my favourite martial weapon. But it would leave alot of his other abilities in the dust, which would be a massive waste of potential.

Don't get me wrong, Kirby, like with Zelda, has a vast amount of characters with unique abilities to offer, and if handled correctly, could make for interesting fighters. The reason I prefer Dee over the majority of Kirby characters is because he brings various new abilities to the table, while still keeping it simple. I'm of the opinion having some sort of innate "gimmick" shouldn't be a major factor for a character's uniqueness as long as the playstyle they bring is interesting enough. (And besides, if you REALLY want a gimmick he can still bring some through having the parasol work as a shield from above and the sides, and having him slow his descent with it, or if he doesn't make the base roster, have him use various different elemental buffs as a stance system sacrificing a portion of damage for stuff like a chance to freeze, a burn damage over time effect, more hitstun with electricity, windboxes, or splash damage with water, as examples.)

Anyway, regarding boss music, I'd be stoked if even one of the following three could make it in:

Spoiler: Songs. Includes spoilers for Planet Robobot and Battle Royale.

Also Mogisthelioma you might want to fix the link in your signature, it leads to the 94th page of the thread. (Unless that was intentional in which case just ignore me.)

Alright I'll fix it. Thanks.

 

[WaddleMatt]

People need to stop saying Bandana Dee is uncreative and soulless, at this point I think it is mainly fans of other Kirby characters being salty.

 

[Quillion]

People need to stop saying Bandana Dee is uncreative and soulless, at this point I think it is mainly fans of other Kirby characters being salty.

He's not a bad character at all. It's just that sone people have the opinion that he's getting overexposed for having such a basic design and abilities over more creative characters like Gooey and Adeleine.

Come to think of it, the Dark Matter Trilogy seems to have better characters all-around than the other Kirby games. It's just that it took Star Allies for any of them to get more exposure.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

We're still lacking in a spear user, though. Even if you may argue that sword users are functionally identical, none of them are pure "stabby" fighters like a spear wielder could be.

Spoiler: Long post

That's true, but I think it's not enough...
I mean, using a spear would be unique in Smash, but it would hardly be a distinctive trait, because he doesn't use it in an iconic way that make him iconic, he just stabs in the most basic way possible (the only exception here is the helicopter move).
The closest thing we can compare this to is some Fire Emblem characters... but even those characters have more than just sword slashes... the charged special that damage themselves if charged too much, Marth's side special, the Eather attack of Ike, etc. they still have iconic moves.

The only way to differentiate Bandana Dee is to mix his spear moveset with parasol. A parasol drill move as down aerial (with rotating stars like in some Kirby games) would probably be iconic enough, and a side special where he stabs with the closed parasol and then opens it for an additional second attack at the end, that would be an unique move too; sure it would be more creative than just stabbing with a normal spear.
Though, I don't know, making him use parasol and spear I feel it would hurt his already weak identity, since using a spear is part of the character (even though Battle Royale exists); giving him different abilities (such as parasol indeed) would make him a second Kirby who represents different abilities that Kirby doesn't, in a way like Isabelle represents different Animal Crossing elements that Villager doesnt; though, at the same time, I think that's a weak purpose to include a character in Smash, in fact Isabelle got the semiclone treatment and was not completely developed from scratch. Sure, it can work, but it would be a boring decision IMO; Isabelle works because she brings in her clumsy personality with her, Bandana Dee's personality is not that much unique nor iconic, he basically has open eyes, and 2 versions of closed eyes as his only facial expressions, and no mouth, he's not even that much expressive.

Another problem I have with the Dee is that there are several iconic waddle dees in the series, why only representing Bandana when you could easily represent the other ones by only changing his hat? A lot of people think that a regular Waddle Dee doesn't deserve being in Smash, and because of this, they want Bandana to be stuck with a bandana because otherwise he would be confused with a generic Waddle Dee. But I disagree. If you have a Waddle Dee in the roster, not giving him the Sailor hat, or the no-hat skin, or a golden skin, or the Kirby Cafe costume would only be a wasted opportunity. But he wouldn't be "Bandana" anymore. This is another issue of the character.
He could use the Louie/Koopalings trick and have different skins with different names, but I don't know.

Now, I'm strongly against Waddle Dee in Smash simply because I think there are way better choices for a 4th rep, but if I'm forcing myself to find a way to make him playable in Smash at any cost, then I would do this:
I don't know how to call the character honestly, maybe "Waddle Dee group", or "Waddle Dee Crew" or something.
You control a leader Waddle Dee, and there are at least 3 Waddle Dees following you, similar to Olimar and the Pikmin.
The Leader Waddle Dee has an hat/costume, it can be changed when selecting the character (default is Bandana). The Waddle Dee you control uses the spear and the parasol, but as specials, he interacts with the other Waddle Dees: the most basic special attack is to launch a Waddle Dee onto the opponent like Dedede's Brawl attack; then, other specials include building wooden gimmicks, or entering a waddle dee-shaped truck similar to the ones from that level in Planet Robobot, or rolling in one of those Waddle Dee Katamari balls from Star Allies, etc. and when using the up special, all the other Waddle Dees form a chain and are attached to the leader one while flying.
This is the only way I can think of to make Waddle Dee unique and Smash-deserving; they make sense as a group to represent the fact that Waddle Dees come as multiple entities across the levels instead of as an unique character.
Also, it would be nice if one of the skins for this character is the TV crew from the Japanese Twitter page of Kirby.

 

[Heatswave]

At the moment Kirby feels very overloooked in Ultimate, the only new thing he got is an Assist Trophy and an item. Zelda got at least some redesigns, a new stage and a character back.
And while I love Metroid and especially the new additions in Ridley and Dark Samus, it feels wrong to me, that Kirby got only three characters compared to Metroids four...

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think one thing that I should reiterate in this thread that I said in the Bandana Dee Support Thread is that I've noticed a strange pattern in the ballot choices. So far, Out of the top 7 fighters, 5 of them have been newcomers or returned: Inkling, King K. Rool, Ridley, Wolf, and Snake. The other 2 are both Bandana Dee and Magolor. It's possible that If Sakurai kept up with this pattern they both might be in, hopefully alongside a 3rd or 4th Kirby newcomer. I'll say it: at this point, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Kirby deserves 4 newcomers.

 

[R O F L]

Bandana Waddle Dee seems like the only proper Kirby newcomer to me. He is the only character (excluding normal enemies and Galacta Knight who has already been deconfirmed.) who has more than one important appearance. All of the other highly-requested Kirby characters only have one major appearance like Marx and Magolor. And some highly requested characters aren't even important to the franchise like Adeline and Gooey.

Don't get me wrong, I would love having some of the higly-requested Kirby characters (specifically Magolor). Its just that anyone besides Bandana Dee would feel wrong considering most of them are only from one game and there are TONS of mainline Kirby games.

The other 2 are both Bandana Dee and Magolor. It's possible that If Sakurai kept up with this pattern they both might be in, hopefully alongside a 3rd or 4th Kirby newcomer. I'll say it: at this point, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Kirby deserves 4 newcomers.

Those two just happen to be my two most wanted Kirby newcomers.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I'll say it: at this point, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Kirby deserves 4 newcomers.

Adeleine & Ribbon, Magolor, Marx and Bandana Dee, everyone is happy (even if I still dislike Bandana Dee).
That would be perfect IMO, but sadly it's not possible.

Also I've got the feeling that the new wave of Dream Friends will bring some unexpected character to popularity, such as Susie, Taranza or even Hyness/Mages.
And what if Magolor has theme park references in his moveset other than just magic?

Kirby characters have so much moveset potential, the series should have got as many unique fighters as Mario or Pokèmon even just for the fresh movesets it can bring to the roster.

 

[Sabertooth]

The only series to ever get four newcomers at once was Zelda in Melee, and even then two of them were clones!

Kirby's best hope is to get two distinct newcomers and two Echo fighters, probably Dark Meta Knight and an Echo of one of the new guys.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The only series to ever get four newcomers at once was Zelda in Melee, and even then two of them were clones!

Kirby's best hope is to get two distinct newcomers and two Echo fighters, probably Dark Meta Knight and an Echo of one of the new guys.

That's a good point, I should have added that some of them would be DLC. I'd like to See Bandana Dee and Magolor in the base game and I would be willing to pay for 2 or more newcomers as DLC. I can't really think of echo fighters for Kirby since it's too easy to come up with unique movesets for some of them. The best Kirby echo possibilities are Masked Dedede and Shadow Kirby (IMO).

 

[Captain Shades]

The only series to ever get four newcomers at once was Zelda in Melee, and even then two of them were clones!

Kirby's best hope is to get two distinct newcomers and two Echo fighters, probably Dark Meta Knight and an Echo of one of the new guys.

Umm... This is wrong. Pokemon technically had 4 newcomers in Brawl since it seems you’re counting Sheik as a character in Melee.

 

[Sabertooth]

Oh yeah. I forgot Pokemon.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I mean I guess Sakurai has tried to appease the HAL fanbase in as many ways as possible other than newcomers. He was worried about people being on the fringe when he developed Melee so he made Kirby the worst fighter and added almost no new content. In brawl he made up for this by adding the (realizable) newcomers that people wanted and made Kirby characters big in SE. [Insert irrelevant fighter here] fans got mad and blamed Sakurai for their most wanted not being in, so he refrained from adding a Kirby newcomer in Smash 4. Judging by this it would make sense for him to finally see no one unironically thinks he's biased by now, and he should at least add one newcomer.

At least.

 

[StormC]

Not every character moveset needs to reinvent the wheel. Ridley's moveset is pretty straightforward, but it fits his character perfectly.

Bandana Dee isn't as important as King Dedede or Meta Knight, but how could he be? They have almost two decades of history on him. What he does have in his favor is always being there since RTDL, in some role, big or small. I'd say he's at least in the tier of Bowser Jr. pre-Smash 4. Any comparison to characters like Adeleine or Marx falls flat on its face considering those characters have been in 2-3 games each. The only reason you could argue they're better choices is because of moveset potential, their resumes don't even come close to Bandana Dee's.

I could understand being dismayed that he was player 4 in RTDL over someone else, but there's no turning that clock back now. I do think the character has a limited appeal outside of Kirby fans though, although a good Smash trailer would definitely sell him on outsiders.

 

[Captain Shades]

Not every character moveset needs to reinvent the wheel. Ridley's moveset is pretty straightforward, but it fits his character perfectly.

Bandana Dee isn't as important as King Dedede or Meta Knight, but how could he be? They have almost two decades of history on him. What he does have in his favor is always being there since RTDL, in some role, big or small. I'd say he's at least in the tier of Bowser Jr. pre-Smash 4. Any comparison to characters like Adeleine or Marx falls flat on its face considering those characters have been in 2-3 games each. The only reason you could argue they're better choices is because of moveset potential, their resumes don't even come close to Bandana Dee's.

I could understand being dismayed that he was player 4 in RTDL over someone else, but there's no turning that clock back now. I do think the character has a limited appeal outside of Kirby fans though, although a good Smash trailer would definitely sell him on outsiders.

I’m going to agree with you, Bandana Dee would be the best 4th character.

In all honesty, I’d argue that Bandana Dee has played an equally important role to both Meta Knight and King Dedede, speaking in modern post-RTDL terms of course. He’s usually treated on an equal playing field to Meta Knight and Dedede in titles like Star Allies and RTDL. He’s been treated very well in the spin-offs, being the only other playable character in Rainbow Curse, and being a guide in Team Kirby Clash, along with what is essentially his game, Battle Royal. Modern Kirby has been blessed with this new character as he’s not just a 4th partner, but seems to be Kirby’s one true friend in all modern titles.

I also want to go over the other potential characters because I think you brought up a great point about their lacking resume, both being exclusive to one - three titles. One issue that I have with Adeline specifically is that her titles were sort of the forgotten Kirby games. Most don’t speak of DreamLand 3 and it has become some what of the forgotten entry in the franchise. 64 gets more recognition, but after hearing some older Kirby fans, it seems that its popularity came from the Kirby boom after RTDL. 64 was kind of a lucky entry that got more recognition after the modern games took off. I guess to me neither Adeline nor Marx really stick out as big characters, Marx only having a big role in one game, and Adeline having only two games with very varying degrees of recognizability and praise.

Finally I want to add that I think mainstream audiences would know who Bandana Dee is at least a decent amount. I think Kirby has taken off in recent years, similar yet far greater to that of Fire Emblem. BD is was also a major player on the ballot, which is where most people know K Rool at this point after his 10 year departure. I think the growing Kirby fandom and Smash speculation make him a pretty recognizable choice all things considered.

 

[StormC]

Finally I want to add that I think mainstream audiences would know who Bandana Dee is at least a decent amount. I think Kirby has taken off in recent years, similar yet far greater to that of Fire Emblem. BD is was also a major player on the ballot, which is where most people know K Rool at this point after his 10 year departure. I think the growing Kirby fandom and Smash speculation make him a pretty recognizable choice all things considered.

Bandana Dee is known outside of Kirby circles. But he isn't especially appealing. Outsiders don't get the hype over a mook with a spear. He's not a particularly easy character to sell.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I’m going to agree with you, Bandana Dee would be the best 4th character.

In all honesty, I’d argue that Bandana Dee has played an equally important role to both Meta Knight and King Dedede, speaking in modern post-RTDL terms of course. He’s usually treated on an equal playing field to Meta Knight and Dedede in titles like Star Allies and RTDL. He’s been treated very well in the spin-offs, being the only other playable character in Rainbow Curse, and being a guide in Team Kirby Clash, along with what is essentially his game, Battle Royal. Modern Kirby has been blessed with this new character as he’s not just a 4th partner, but seems to be Kirby’s one true friend in all modern titles.

I also want to go over the other potential characters because I think you brought up a great point about their lacking resume, both being exclusive to one - three titles. One issue that I have with Adeline specifically is that her titles were sort of the forgotten Kirby games. Most don’t speak of DreamLand 3 and it has become some what of the forgotten entry in the franchise. 64 gets more recognition, but after hearing some older Kirby fans, it seems that its popularity came from the Kirby boom after RTDL. 64 was kind of a lucky entry that got more recognition after the modern games took off. I guess to me neither Adeline nor Marx really stick out as big characters, Marx only having a big role in one game, and Adeline having only two games with very varying degrees of recognizability and praise.

Finally I want to add that I think mainstream audiences would know who Bandana Dee is at least a decent amount. I think Kirby has taken off in recent years, similar yet far greater to that of Fire Emblem. BD is was also a major player on the ballot, which is where most people know K Rool at this point after his 10 year departure. I think the growing Kirby fandom and Smash speculation make him a pretty recognizable choice all things considered.

All of this is very arguable.
Bandana Dee appeared a lot in the modern Kirby games, but I doubt his role has ever been on the same level as Metaknight and King Dedede, aside of KRTD where King Dedede and Metaknight were pointless too aside of allowing multiplayer. He seem to play an important role in Rainbow Curse, yet he's still not completely considered as a full character, because on the official site, he's listed with Kirby and not as its own character. In Battle Royale, he gets an important role in the story mode, though, in the multiplayer mode (that is the main mode of the game, the story mode is secondary) you can play as King Dedede and Metaknight, but not as Bandana Dee, you can use a regular Waddle Dee without the bandanna instead. And even in Star Allies, he's only the default Dream Friend; Metaknight and King Dedede both get a bossfight and some story involvement (mostly King Dedede, Metaknight is just there); Bandana Dee gets nothing of that, he's just a Dream Friend (and as long as you update the game, he's not even the only Dream Friend you get at the beginning anymore). The fact that he gets the same title screen as Dedede and MK is more because he doesn't represent a specific game, than because he's on the same level as them... if anything, so far Adeleine is the only character who has got a specific art in the gallery where every other Dream Friend shares it with the others of the wave they belong, and even the end screeen with all the Dream Friends of her wave is all about her.
All this talking about relevancy and importance is worthless IMO, all what we need to know is, if they are Dream Friends, they are meaningful to the series (the only exceptions are some final bosses such as Galacta Knight, Drawcia and Dark Matter, aside of the not announced Dream Friends).

And the Dark Matter trilogy is far from being forgotten. I agree that sadly Kirby's Dream Land 3 is often overlooked, but Kirby 64 is still one of the most popular and appreciated Kirby games, just look at this:
poll results
The fact that the Dark Matter Trilogy has been forgotten for almost two decades by HAL does not mean that the fans have forgot about it. It's kinda a similar situation as with Geno, but this time there isn't any copyright reason behind this, it's just that HAL rebooted the series after the Kirby anime to fit the style of the anime more, and the Dark Matter trilogy did not fit much with that style.... they gave up on this anyway, games such as Dream Land 3 and Kirby 64 recently are getting a lot of references and many of their characters have been brought back, so this problem does not exist anymore.
The fact that despite HAL's attempt to exclude the trilogy from the series, the fans still haven't forgot about it, it's the proof that those games are still very popular (especially Kirby 64).

Anyway, I'd say that the chance of appearing in Smash is not just about how many times a character appeared in a series, but it's more about how meaningful those appearances were. This also plays in favor of Magolor and Marx, as I think they are both perfect candidates for Smash as well (honestly I think that Magolor is the most likely Kirby newcomer, if there is one).
The fact that Zero Suit Samus appeared only in a couple of games (only one at the time of Brawl) did not stop her from getting in the game, the same could be said about Sheik, and even Ganondorf in Melee, when Ocarina of Time was the only game with Ganondorf as the villain (along with Four Sword Adventure and Windwaker, but the roster was likely decided before those games existed); and Rosalina.
Saying that a character is unimportant because appeared only in one game is a poor argument IMO.

 

[Captain Shades]

Iko MattOrr
I was more arguing about icon status, but I do feel that I wasn’t clear and didn’t explain well.

I guess my point is that Bandana Waddle Dee has integrated himself as what is essentially the 4th main character of Kirby. While other characters are important, they haven’t received quite as much attention by either HAL or the fan base. BD has consistently appeared in the modern titles spanning through this decade, showing that he is no one and done character even if his roles aren’t the biggest. Plus games like Battle Royal clearly show that HAL is really trying to add more character to him and put him in more of a main character position, being essentially Kirby’s best friend and Dedede’s loyal warrior. There’s also the fact that he was the only playable character in Rainbow Curse outside of Kirby, once again showing how much emphasis HAL puts on the little guy as they want him to be a main stay. I feel that this is the major difference between him and other Kirby characters. Adeline is a cool character, but she was obviously pushed aside for years on end in favor of new Kirby characters, and she had two games to establish the character. Most Kirby characters are one and dones, they come and appear for one title, maybe make an extra cameo in another then leave until Star Allies. Bandana Waddle Dee consistently appeared after his miraculous comeback in Ultra and has been in each Kirby title, sometimes gaining very large roles. He had his sacrifice as part of the plot in Super Star Ultra, was a main character and helper in RTDL, helped and cheered Kirby on before boss fights in the 3DS titles, was a main character in Rainbow Curse, a guide in Team Kirby Clash, Kirby’s partner and somewhat the main character in Battle Royal, and he was the 1st Dream Friend in Star Allies. If you want me to go on, then there’s the fact that he has his own song that everyone’s certain he sings, he has a Mii hat in Streetpass Plaza, and he actually has a mural dedicated to him in Sector-B of Star Allies. There’s also been hints that he’s the same Dee from Kirby 64 to add more importance if it is true. I think all these factors make him a what I believe to be the most impactful character the series has had since the main 3.

To take on some of your points though

1) But X character is in: I think this one can be easily explained as different factors for your aforementioned characters, but I do think all of them were important and here’s why...

Ganondorf - This one’s easy. Other than being an easier version of a clearly established character as this is just another form of Ganon who is important across the series, I think we also have to go into the cultural impact of the character or rather the game he’s from. Ganondorf came from Ocarina of Time, the game that is still one of the highest rated games of all time. People knew Zelda due to this game, and this game set the standard for all Zelda games to follow in the future until the new big shift known as Breath of the Wild. Ganondorf was a major character even though he was only in one title due to the fact that that one title was essentially the most important and famous title of the series at that point.

Sheik - Just look at Ganondorf. Sheik was put in because Ocarina which was the biggest and most recognizable game of the franchise similar to Awakening for Fire Emblem, or Gen 1 for Pokemon.

Rosalina - She was clearly a big character going into Smash 4. Her and Bowser Jr. had been appearing in all Mario titles since their debuts and Rosalina became playable in 3D World. While Rosalina didn’t appear in that many titles at the time, I feel that the writing was on the wall and she was clearly going to be used more as the series continued, which is correct as she still consistently shows up and was even planned for Odessey as concept art is now out with her playing the guitar.

Zero Suit - The oddest one of the bunch I moist agree, and was probably only in because people wanted more Metroid characters and Ridley was too big. I’d argue that ZSS is already important being Samus herself, plus she was tied to Samus in Brawl, but in reality she was just the fast version of Samus since 64 made her slow and clunky, kinda betraying the character. Most say that ZSS is the human side of Samus as that gets lost in the armor, plus the twist of Samus being a girl was a major staple of the franchise. If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t ZSS in that Metroid Manga that detailed backstories?

I mention them as Adeline and other Kirby characters don’t fit any of these. The Dark Matter Trilogy has no widely recognized game in the Kirby franchise as Super Star clearly takes that title, maybe even RTDL as two of its major characters are on Smash polls. Adeline doesn’t have much to suggest she’d become a Rosalina and appear in more titles as the years go on, as that fits Bandana Waddle Dee more as he’s the constantly reoccurring character. And do I have to mention ZSS?

Bandana Waddle Dee is more in line with your examples as he’s from the most recognizable titles in the franchise being Super Star and RTDL for new comers. He’s also going to be more important as the Kirby games go on as almost 10 years of reoccurring appearances would suggest.

2) Poll Results: I’ll give you credit, 64 is number 2, but Super Star Ultra is number one. Bandana Waddle Dee’s first speaking role is the highest rated title. Than after two we have Robobot which the Dee is in, Super Star being his first appearance, RTDL being his first playable appearance, and even Star Allies which at the time of the poll being created Adeline wasn’t a part of, whereas the Dee was on the roster from day one. I think having that many games on the poll gives him an edge

3) Dream Friends: You mentioned that all the Dream Friends are important as they represent separate games. You also mention how Dee shares a title screen with MK and Dedede because he doesn’t represent a particular game. Wouldn’t this fact make him a better choice? If he doesn’t represent a game and is treated the same as Meta Knight and Dedede, shouldn’t that mean that he’s on their level, a main stay, thus can’t be represented by one particular game unlike Adeline, the animal buddies, Maglor, or Marx. If BD isn’t tied to a particular game, then that should prove that HAL views him as more than a side character and more like a main one as BD could have easily been the RTDL rep, but he wasn’t.

 

[Sabertooth]

I feel like both Bandana Dee and Rosalina both share the trait of appearing often, but not in any substantial way. I already went into detail on how I feel about Dee's role in the games he appears in, but Rosalina fits that mold as well after the first Galaxy. She never truly does anything and you could always remove her without changing much about the game. Even in 3D World she's just a bonus character who has no bearing on anything. I feel that if Rosalina can get in, Bandana Dee sure can.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I feel like both Bandana Dee and Rosalina both share the trait of appearing often, but not in any substantial way. I already went into detail on how I feel about Dee's role in the games he appears in, but Rosalina fits that mold as well after the first Galaxy. She never truly does anything and you could always remove her without changing much about the game. Even in 3D World she's just a bonus character who has no bearing on anything. I feel that if Rosalina can get in, Bandana Dee sure can.

There is a difference... Rosalina appeared in a very substantial way once, in a game, a popular game that was fully themed around her.
You have the comet observatory, the galaxy, the theme song and a full art style that are connected to the character. Even if all her subsequent appearances are meaningless and she's just there, her first appearance was so important that made her deserve a spot in Smash.

Something that I can't think of Bandana Dee. He doesn't have a game dedicated to him, he doesn't have a theme song, an art style, an iconic location or an important story event associated to him or something, all things required for a character in order to be considered iconic or memorable.

Captain Shades we are going in circle... we are repeating the same stuff again and again. You bring me examples such as Rainbow Curse and Battle Royale, I reply that in Rainbow Curse he was not an important character and this proves it (Waddle Dee is not listed with the characters but only mentioned in a side note under Kirby), and in Battle Royale he's not playable where Dedede and Metaknight are. Etc... I can counter any of your examples, it's just meaningless, the same thing is positive or negative for him depending on how you look at it... the point is that for each proof of his relevancy there is also a proof of his irrelevancy, so there is no way to reach an end.
(also, every character, including Adeleine and Ribbon, have a murale in Kirby Star Allies, and with the new versions of the game, Bandana Dee is not the first Dream Friend anymore, every DLC Dream Friend is in the pool as well and the only ones that you have to unlock are Dedede and Metaknight, making them more important than the rest - because they also have a role in the story of the main game; Prince Fluff also got the Mii hat and that's because they were based on recent games at the time, so Bandana Dee has just been lucky: he doesn't have an account icon on the Switch for example while Magolor has one, and a regular Waddle Dee with no bandana is there too; The 64 dee thing was only on the Kirby blog and was just a vague reference, ingame they did the same reference with Parasol Dee instead, it's meaningless).

Also, given that the poll I linked is not the absolute thruth or anything, it's just a small poll that I used as an example; you can't say that Bandana Dee has a big role in Superstar Ultra, because his role in that game was very minor. Kirby 64 placed second in that poll, there's no way to dismiss it because there is Superstar Ultra as the first game. Superstar Ultra is Marx' game by the way, not Bandana Dee's; in any case, Kirby 64 remains a popular and iconic game (also being the first jump to 3D), no matter if it's second and not first.
And there is this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kirby/comments/8yo58b/switch_channel_update_9_adeleine_ribbon_to_join/

Adeleine has the ability to bring anything that she paints to life, and Ribbon the fairy possesses a mysterious power that allows her to fly. These two have a really dedicated, long-time fanbase. Back in Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, they played an important role in the story, but you weren't able to control them yourself. Now that they've become Dream Friends, they can finally be player-controlled!

This is written by the developers of Kirby Star Allies, so it's official.

So we're just running in circle. Those characters are all important in a way or another, it's just that I think that Bandana Dee is not iconic enough to represent anything besides Waddle Dees, and I doubt Waddle Dees should be represented in the roster at any cost, especially since not even Toad is in yet and he is more important and from a bigger series.

 

[Captain Shades]

I am still going to say that BD is the most deserving of all Kirby characters, there’s so much going for him.

Iconic Moment
I believe the most iconic moment was one that was pretty funny back in 2009, but has since become somewhat of a sad moment for many Kirby fans and that’s the ultimate sacrifice.

In one of the only games where King Dedede is actually a villain, Revenge of The King, there’s a pretty heartfelt moment between him and Bandana Dee. Every enemy that Dedede has, whether weak or strong, goes against Kirby in loyalty to the king. They all die inevitably, leaving Dee to be the last man. Dee is weak though and begs the king not to make him go by himself, so Dedede spares him. Bandana Dee’s sense of loyalty makes him comply though, going against Kirby to give Dedede more time, but risking his life against the unstoppable force with no weapon.

His Theme Song
There’s also Bandana Dee’s theme song, which most seem to ignore or act that he doesn’t have one. In the song he sings about how he wants to get stronger, drinking apple juice every day so that eventually he can beat all foes that come between him and his friends.

Lyrics (Found on WiKirby)
Apple juice, I make a bunch of it
Like this, with freshly picked apples
Mashing and blending, all the ingredients
Apples, with lemon, honey, and protein
By drinking this daily
I'll grow up strong too
Ahh, someday I want to become
Ripped too
Apple juice, I gulp it down
So I won't lose against that kid
I'll grow stronger
Playing with everyone, in serious battles
With training, I have changed somewhat
The secrets to victory, are something I know well
Skill and power, and experience I gain in combat
And now, if I win against that kid
I'll grow mature too
Ahh, someday I want to become
Popular too
Apple juice, everyone drinks it
Together, we polish up our skills
And grow stronger
Apple juice, I'll freely have seconds
Continuing with friendly battles
I'll grow stronger

The General Character of Bandana Dee
Bandana Waddle Dee, at least to me is also one of the most well developed characters. Starting out in the early years of Kirby (Revenge of the King takes place after the first game) where he is weak and has no chance against Kirby. Through the years leading up to RTDL, he picks up a spear to help him get stronger, so he can protect the king and Kirby down the line. Since then he strives to get stronger as implied by the song, probably becoming an icon that other Waddle Dees look up to.

If I were to describe Bandana Dee, I’d say he’s loyal to the core, and someone who wants to get recognition for what he does. Many quotes go over his love for the spotlight and doing some dangerous acts such as running along the fading part of the rainbow bridge in Rainbow Curse. His loyalty is shown through King Dedede, as BD will go as far as to walk all night in order to make sure Dedede gets his heavy cake.

To me Bandana Dee seems to be Kirby’s answer to Luigi in many respects. A character based on a pre-existing model that becomes a some-what generic player two character that can be removed from most games because they seem to serve no purpose other than allowing for more players, but then their companies do something different with them and slowly add more character. Both had fears added to them, Luigi for ghosts and Bandana Dee for heights. Both will do anything to get stronger to help their friends, Luigi conquering fears for Mario, and BD joining Kirby at every chance, helping him in the arena and dedicating much of his life to getting stronger. Heck, both even want to be in the spotlight, as Luigi laments in his journal in Paper Mario, and BD has been described on multiple occasions. Bandana Waddle Dee literally seems to be the Luigi to Kirby’s Mario. It’d feel wrong to include one without the other to me, and no, to go against the iconic moment argument, it wasn’t like Luigi did anything to big before Smash 64, other than star in bad titles.

I guess my overall view on Bandana Dee is that he isn’t the most interesting character. He isn’t someone with an extensive background or major character motivation. He’s simply a small guy looking to make a name for himself through hard work that probably over exhausts him. He may not be a big character overall, but I feel that his charm has put him on top, in the same way that characters like Chrom triumph over Hector in appeal, or Luigi to someone more interesting like Count Blek. He’s relatable, a bit of an underdog and I respect that more than really any other character Kirby has, in the same way Luigi gained my respect over the years. He may not be your Kirby character, but I feel that the amount of work that has gone into this character over the years should be rewarded, and I’d hate to see a Luigi situation all over again, where no one respects player 2, doing nothing but trashing on what is a great character. To end this, BD is and will continue to be a major player in the Kirby franchise, so I hope he doesn’t get neglected again, especially after his character development going up in the years between Smash 4 and Ultimate.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I am still going to say that BD is the most deserving of all Kirby characters, there’s so much going for him.

Iconic Moment
I believe the most iconic moment was one that was pretty funny back in 2009, but has since become somewhat of a sad moment for many Kirby fans and that’s the ultimate sacrifice.

In one of the only games where King Dedede is actually a villain, Revenge of The King, there’s a pretty heartfelt moment between him and Bandana Dee. Every enemy that Dedede has, whether weak or strong, goes against Kirby in loyalty to the king. They all die inevitably, leaving Dee to be the last man. Dee is weak though and begs the king not to make him go by himself, so Dedede spares him. Bandana Dee’s sense of loyalty makes him comply though, going against Kirby to give Dedede more time, but risking his life against the unstoppable force with no weapon.

His Theme Song
There’s also Bandana Dee’s theme song, which most seem to ignore or act that he doesn’t have one. In the song he sings about how he wants to get stronger, drinking apple juice every day so that eventually he can beat all foes that come between him and his friends.

Lyrics (Found on WiKirby)
Apple juice, I make a bunch of it
Like this, with freshly picked apples
Mashing and blending, all the ingredients
Apples, with lemon, honey, and protein
By drinking this daily
I'll grow up strong too
Ahh, someday I want to become
Ripped too
Apple juice, I gulp it down
So I won't lose against that kid
I'll grow stronger
Playing with everyone, in serious battles
With training, I have changed somewhat
The secrets to victory, are something I know well
Skill and power, and experience I gain in combat
And now, if I win against that kid
I'll grow mature too
Ahh, someday I want to become
Popular too
Apple juice, everyone drinks it
Together, we polish up our skills
And grow stronger
Apple juice, I'll freely have seconds
Continuing with friendly battles
I'll grow stronger

The General Character of Bandana Dee
Bandana Waddle Dee, at least to me is also one of the most well developed characters. Starting out in the early years of Kirby (Revenge of the King takes place after the first game) where he is weak and has no chance against Kirby. Through the years leading up to RTDL, he picks up a spear to help him get stronger, so he can protect the king and Kirby down the line. Since then he strives to get stronger as implied by the song, probably becoming an icon that other Waddle Dees look up to.

If I were to describe Bandana Dee, I’d say he’s loyal to the core, and someone who wants to get recognition for what he does. Many quotes go over his love for the spotlight and doing some dangerous acts such as running along the fading part of the rainbow bridge in Rainbow Curse. His loyalty is shown through King Dedede, as BD will go as far as to walk all night in order to make sure Dedede gets his heavy cake.

To me Bandana Dee seems to be Kirby’s answer to Luigi in many respects. A character based on a pre-existing model that becomes a some-what generic player two character that can be removed from most games because they seem to serve no purpose other than allowing for more players, but then their companies do something different with them and slowly add more character. Both had fears added to them, Luigi for ghosts and Bandana Dee for heights. Both will do anything to get stronger to help their friends, Luigi conquering fears for Mario, and BD joining Kirby at every chance, helping him in the arena and dedicating much of his life to getting stronger. Heck, both even want to be in the spotlight, as Luigi laments in his journal in Paper Mario, and BD has been described on multiple occasions. Bandana Waddle Dee literally seems to be the Luigi to Kirby’s Mario. It’d feel wrong to include one without the other to me, and no, to go against the iconic moment argument, it wasn’t like Luigi did anything to big before Smash 64, other than star in bad titles.

I guess my overall view on Bandana Dee is that he isn’t the most interesting character. He isn’t someone with an extensive background or major character motivation. He’s simply a small guy looking to make a name for himself through hard work that probably over exhausts him. He may not be a big character overall, but I feel that his charm has put him on top, in the same way that characters like Chrom triumph over Hector in appeal, or Luigi to someone more interesting like Count Blek. He’s relatable, a bit of an underdog and I respect that more than really any other character Kirby has, in the same way Luigi gained my respect over the years. He may not be your Kirby character, but I feel that the amount of work that has gone into this character over the years should be rewarded, and I’d hate to see a Luigi situation all over again, where no one respects player 2, doing nothing but trashing on what is a great character. To end this, BD is and will continue to be a major player in the Kirby franchise, so I hope he doesn’t get neglected again, especially after his character development going up in the years between Smash 4 and Ultimate.

What I don't understand is everyone's idea that Kirby is only going to get one newcomer. While that's entirely possible, it's just as likely or even more probable that multiple Kirby newcomers are on their way. I agree that Dee may not be the most interesting but he's certainly the most innovative moveset they could add, but any other Kirby character could come in alongside them.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I don't want to continue the Bandana Dee debate since there's no end, as I said in my previous posts; though I have to admit that this is the first time I hear about that Apple Juice Song, and I played every Kirby game so far except Battle Royale and Star Allies (because I don't have a Switch yet, but I watched it online and I know about all its content).

Is it officially referenced as Bandana Dee's theme song, or it's just fan specultion? I know that there are a couple of references, though I think that the song can be applied to Kirby himself too, or could simply be a generic song that represents the mood of the Kirby games, such as many anime's opening and endings that don't directly talk about the characters or the events of the anime.
Anyway, unless it starts being used in games and associated to the character multiple times, so far it's still an obscure Japan-only song and I doubt it counts as iconic to the character...

 

[Arthur97]

I think Kirby is fine, now. In Brawl, it got too much in SSE.

 

[Captain Shades]

What I don't understand is everyone's idea that Kirby is only going to get one newcomer. While that's entirely possible, it's just as likely or even more probable that multiple Kirby newcomers are on their way. I agree that Dee may not be the most interesting but he's certainly the most innovative moveset they could add, but any other Kirby character could come in alongside them.

Limited character amount, and Sakurai going back and forth about representing Kirby are the key contributors. Plus Sakurai like to keep main casts together and not bring in many outsiders if Zelda’s three character policy is any indicator. Plus there’s also the whole bias thing where Sakurai only picks things from his games in the franchise that creates quite a block, as most requested characters are outside the main 3 titles Super Star, Dream Land, and Adventure. I’ve already gone over how I feel about Kirby’s representation, but I do feel that it sets a bad presence for wanting Kirby content. I guess expect little from the franchise outside the Sakurai titles and hope you’re proven wrong.

I guess it just seems likely that Kirby will receive little to no new comers to most but if I were to rank chances from highest to lowest than I feel these characters would get in

1) Bandana Waddle: Prominent in new entries, uses a weapon that no one else has, basically has had a move set made for him since RTDL, and is the most popular Kirby character for Smash according to Japanese ballot polls.

2) Magolor: Weirdly the second most popular Kirby character for Smash in Japan, ranking extremely high for a sort of one-shot villain. To be fair though, Magolor was in a pretty iconic, basically rebirth, title in the franchise along with Dee, so I guess it makes sense. Plus Magalor shows up in Team Kirby Clash and has bonus extras in the 20th Anniversary, while also being planned to be a character in Star Allies.

3) Adeline: Can’t really gauge popularity, but she seems to be next in line, plus with the Kirby team mentioning her importance, I can see it happening. The thing holding her back is the lack of any real weight on Smash polls, whereas BD and Magolor ranked within top 10s

4) Animal Buddies + Goey: Same as Adeline, gaining popularity and being deemed important, but lacking poll power or any real importance in recent years due to an absence.

I don't want to continue the Bandana Dee debate since there's no end, as I said in my previous posts; though I have to admit that this is the first time I hear about that Apple Juice Song, and I played every Kirby game so far except Battle Royale and Star Allies (because I don't have a Switch yet, but I watched it online and I know about all its content).

Is it officially referenced as Bandana Dee's theme song, or it's just fan specultion? I know that there are a couple of references, though I think that the song can be applied to Kirby himself too, or could simply be a generic song that represents the mood of the Kirby games, such as many anime's opening and endings that don't directly talk about the characters or the events of the anime.
Anyway, unless it starts being used in games and associated to the character multiple times, so far it's still an obscure Japan-only song and I doubt it counts as iconic to the character...

The song was heavily implied to be sung by Bandana Dee himself according to the Kirby Wiki and most fans.

Also it was used in a game, though without lyrics and a slight renaming.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Limited character amount

What makes you think there's a small character pool o choose from? I understand some of Sakurai's feelings, but I wouldn't say the choices are limited.

Plus there’s also the whole bias thing where Sakurai only picks things from his games in the franchise that creates

I think it goes deeper than that. It seems like Sakurai just can't handle that HAL has been super successful wit Kirby even after he left, which has restricted him to adding very limited post Sakurai content from Kirby. If someone were to call Dee, Magolor, etc. unlikely, the biggest contributor to that would be Sakurai's modesty.

 

[Arthur97]

What makes you think there's a small character pool o choose from? I understand some of Sakurai's feelings, but I wouldn't say the choices are limited.

I think it goes deeper than that. It seems like Sakurai just can't handle that HAL has been super successful wit Kirby even after he left, which has restricted him to adding very limited post Sakurai content from Kirby. If someone were to call Dee, Magolor, etc. unlikely, the biggest contributor to that would be Sakurai's modesty.

From the way you talk, ego might be a better word than modesty.

Still, there aren't many returning characters of note in Kirby. Bandana Dee would be the closest, but he's essentially a Waddle Dee with a bandana and a spear. Granted, he did have dialogue in a game.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

From the way you talk, ego might be a better word than modesty.

I feel like if I went around saying ego people would get mad, suggesting that I'm pitted against Sakurai, and everyone who treats the man like he's a god or whatever would suddenly be filling my DMs.

 

[Arthur97]

I feel like if I went around saying ego people would get mad, suggesting that I'm pitted against Sakurai, and everyone who treats the man like he's a god or whatever would suddenly be filling my DMs.

But modesty is an inappropriate word. What good does sugar coating do? I'm annoyed at the Sakurai worship myself, but my dissonance hasn't filled my DMs.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Anyone have speculation on what dream friends wave 3 will have for final boss music?

Spoiler: Datamined Dream friends: Wave 3

Magolor: C-R-O-W-N-E-D remix, possible with Another Dimension or Under My Control involved
Taranza: Could be anything. Revenge of the Enemy, Moonstruck Blossom (I hope), Soul of Sectonia, Taranza: the Puppet Master, or even Masked Dedede
Susie: Probably The Noble Haltmann or some form of the many boss themes of Planet Robobot
Jambastion Mages: If they;re one character, like the animal friends, probably a version of Prayer Song to God/Song of Supplication. If they're 3 individual character....beats me.

 

[Dbombiallo]

Any one thinks that Dee getting his own game would help him become more unique like a rpg where he goes to train and he goes on helps some random enemy or a friend and gains skills on the way. Or a parasol that turns into a shield and acts like Captain America's or link's shield

 

[Sabertooth]

Surprised Bandee hasn't gotten his own 3DS eshop game yet.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I think Adeleine should get her own spin-off, a puzzle platformer reminiscent of A Boy and His Blob, but with more action.
I imagine it as a game in the style of some indie games, the ones with a big emphasis on the art style and emotions/immersivity.
You have a way to chose among several different drawings to summon (maybe with the use of the touch screen to draw), some of them are support drawings or minions, others can be used as "veichles" and you can ride them, other drawings just change your status, heal you or interact with the level's gimmicks.
Maybe with the overall mood of Canvas Curse, minus the weird electronic music (use stuff more in the style of Dream Land 3 instead, maybe).
As for level gimmicks, I think that it should implement big gimmicks in the style of the ones featured in the Hypernova and Robobot sections in their respective games, maybe with a bigger level of interaction (you can interact with them in several different ways instead of only 1 way like in those 3DS games).

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think Adeleine should get her own spin-off, a puzzle platformer reminiscent of A Boy and His Blob, but with more action.
I imagine it as a game in the style of some indie games, the ones with a big emphasis on the art style and emotions/immersivity.
You have a way to chose among several different drawings to summon (maybe with the use of the touch screen to draw), some of them are support drawings or minions, others can be used as "veichles" and you can ride them, other drawings just change your status, heal you or interact with the level's gimmicks.
Maybe with the overall mood of Canvas Curse, minus the weird electronic music (use stuff more in the style of Dream Land 3 instead, maybe).
As for level gimmicks, I think that it should implement big gimmicks in the style of the ones featured in the Hypernova and Robobot sections in their respective games, maybe with a bigger level of interaction (you can interact with them in several different ways instead of only 1 way like in those 3DS games).

I think every Kirby character should get their own spinoff. it would be interesting to see a canon Kirby game without the traditional Kirby title. In a marketing perspective it would certainly get more people interested in the game (then again Star Allies has sold over 2 million units so it's not like the fanbase is small in any way).

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Oh, wow, I got a notification for this thread totally forgetting I posted here! That's sad.

I think every Kirby character should get their own spinoff. it would be interesting to see a canon Kirby game without the traditional Kirby title. In a marketing perspective it would certainly get more people interested in the game (then again Star Allies has sold over 2 million units so it's not like the fanbase is small in any way).

That's an interesting idea: the next unannounced title could base itself around the theme of Star Allies' Guest Star mode. However, the adventures are aligned a bit more like Super Star with their own stories and gimmicks. Each adventure, minigame, and menu option is controlled by a different character. Maybe the finale allows the characters to team up and save Kirby. (Or perhaps fight him?) I mean, I'm not sure if a supporting cast game would work from a marketing perspective, but Guest Star technically dipped its toes into the idea, so...