Smash Ultimate general series discussion: Part 5: Kirby (with polls)

Has Sakurai been modest toward Kirby in Smash?

  • No, but he needs to be more modest

    Votes: 4 5.0%
  • No, but it's fine

    Votes: 6 7.5%
  • Yes, but it's fine

    Votes: 17 21.3%
  • Yes, and he should be less modest

    Votes: 53 66.3%

  • Total voters
    80

Mogisthelioma

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#1
(Reminder: Since these threads only cover series with > 1 fighter, Yoshi was skipped. I don't cound the Crafted Yoshi alt. as another fighter)

K H U R B E E

Tagged for Frizz Frizz , Alastor017 Alastor017 , H HypnoMaster372 , Quillion Quillion , and WaddleMatt WaddleMatt ! If you want me to tag you in the future, remember to mention me using Mogisthelioma Mogisthelioma , DM me, or follow me!

Part 5 of a discussion covering all series with more than one fighter!
Kirby!
One of Nintendo's oldest icons, and has been a part of Smash since day one! Kirby has always stuck to 2D platforming and has created a new formula for platforming games. With lots of spin-offs, merchandise, and even an extensive anime, Kirby has expanded to be one of Nintendo's greatest hits, all thanks to HAL labs (and Sakurai).

Since all discussions open up with roster talk, we'll open up with a pretty controversial topic:

Do you think that Sakurai has been modest with making choices for Kirby in Smash? Why? (Modest meaning he has not given it as much credit to avoid accusations of bias.)
 

Quillion

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#2
It seems that there is a big war between relevance and personality in the Kirby franchise. I'm of course talking about Bandana Dee and the Star Allies Dream Friends.

Bandana Dee admittedly lacks personality and is little more than a filler character, but HAL for some reason is pushing him as the series' fourth main character.

On the other hand, more classic characters like Marx, Gooey, Adeleine, and Ribbon are much more unique with well-defined personalities, but they have long lost relevance in the series until Star Allies came to give them one last shot.

So what do you do here? Do you go for the more relevant character? Or for the more unique characters? It can really go either way.
 

letsgetsmashing

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#4
I think Sakurai has been modest towards the Kirby franchise several times, but usually with reason. After Smash 64 he was criticized for making Kirby overpowered, so in Melee he was one of the worst fighters. In Brawl he was criticized for making Meta Knight the best player in the game, so he was nerfed hard in Smash Wii U. I think due to being criticized on two occasions and accused of favoring the Kirby series, Sakurai has BECOME modest. He doesn't want to upset the community again, and might be hesitant to add Kirby characters because of the accusations that have been made before. However, I don't think this is that big of an issue now, because while he didn't create Pit or Palutena, he was a major part of their development and a lot of their movesets in Smash, specifically Palutena, are derived from Kid Icarus Uprising. If he was able to add those characters without them being overpowered, I think he would be able to do the same for Kirby now. As far as Kirby not getting many reps, I think that Sakurai has set the same standards for most other series. Kirby is like The Legend of Zelda and Metroid in the sense that it has main characters that the series constantly centers around, and then a ton of side characters/one offs. This makes including more playable fighters in Smash difficult because it's hard to choose between 10+ fighters from the same series that have all appeared in one or two games (example: Adeleine, Rick, Marx, Magolor).
 
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#5
Sakurai held back Dedede and Metaknight until Brawl specifically because he was being modest, right? Or was that just a rumor? The only way I could see someone unironically thinking Kirby is overrepresented in Smash is because the game is basically built on the foundation of Kirby Superestar.

Given that Mario and Pokemon characters are approaching double digits, I think we can afford to have 1 or 2 more Kirby characters.

In any case, what does Sakurai have to be modest about? Kirby is basically a flagship series now. I feel like we get a new Kirby game announced at every direct these days, if not a main series game, then an e-shop/spinoff title.
 
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#6
I'm a big fan of Kirby. I've played every major Kirby game. That said, I think Bandadee is a super boring choice and there are about 10 other Kirby characters who would be way more fun in Smash. Pretty much everyone already brought up the best choices: Marx, Magolor, Adeleine, Rick & Kine & Coo, Dark Matter, Daroach, Taranza, hell even Drawcia or one of the mirror characters as an Echo, the list goes on! Fans like to say that Bandana Dee is Kirby's "Player 4", however he could only really claim that role in Return to Dream Land as in Star Allies he's just another character, and he's not even playable in the two 3DS games. You could more suitably compare him to Nabbit when it comes to the platformers.

I honestly think Kirby's characters are fine in Smash--the real area that might stink of bias is that Sakurai only includes stages from games that he made. It's highly suspect that the new Kirby stage in Smash 4 was from Super Star rather than Return to Dream Land. However, that could have just been a genuine creative choice on Sakurai's part, feeling that the Great Cave Offensive was a more interesting idea than anything he could pull from RtDL. I can't say I blame him for that because Great Cave is possibly the most unique stage in the game and I'm really glad to have it.

Sakurai did show blatant favoritism toward Kid Icarus in Smash 4 and I won't deny that, but that's in the past now and he seems to have cooled it. He's doing a great job not letting his biases get in the way with new content for Smash Ultimate, and I would love to see something new from Kirby.
 
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Al-kīmiyā'

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#7
That's a strange poll. Anyway, I don't care about Bandana Dee. He's certainly not a replacement for someone like Ephraim.
 

Jyl

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#8
Sakurai holding back on Kirby yet going all out for Kid Icarus makes me feel a bit sorry for the Kirby series.
Anyways please give me Adeleine+Ribbon assist trophy please!
 

11th

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#9
Trying to resist slipping into essay mode.

To answer the poll: Yes, I do think that Mr. Sakurai has been hesitant to add things from Kirby, but I don't think the reason is as simple as "modesty" or "bias". I think there's a lot behind the scenes and/or under the surface that might be contributing to it. I have ideas, but a lot of it is just speculation based on what we know about the series, the habits of each of the main Kirby directors, and very few comments from official sources.

As for whether or not he should be less "modest": Yes, please... I'm not going to pretend that Kirby is on the same level as Mario or Pokémon, but it certainly has enough history and popularity to warrant at least one more character. Assist trophies and items will only pacify people for so long.


He's certainly not a replacement for someone like Ephraim.
No one is claiming that he would be. Kirby/Bandana Dee and Fire Emblem/Ephraim both have their own, independent set of pros and cons when it comes to making the cut for Smash. Yes, they both have spears, but that's where the similarities end -- Meta Knight doesn't play like Marth just because they both have swords. Their body types are completely different, as are the visual directions of their home series. Meta Knight is allowed to be more exaggerated and unrealistic because he's a walking blob, but Marth is a somewhat realistic human and needs to maintain a certain level of realistic movement to avoid looking uncanny. The same would apply to Dee and Ephraim.
 

SupriceSupplies

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#10
It seems that there is a big war between relevance and personality in the Kirby franchise. I'm of course talking about Bandana Dee and the Star Allies Dream Friends.

Bandana Dee admittedly lacks personality and is little more than a filler character, but HAL for some reason is pushing him as the series' fourth main character.

On the other hand, more classic characters like Marx, Gooey, Adeleine, and Ribbon are much more unique with well-defined personalities, but they have long lost relevance in the series until Star Allies came to give them one last shot.

So what do you do here? Do you go for the more relevant character? Or for the more unique characters? It can really go either way.
I personally disagree with Dee being a filler character (especially when the recolours of Kirby exist in Return to Dreamland, I don't think it's fair to call Dee filler over them.). He's been given a basic personality of being always ready to help, yet a bit of scaredycat like Luigi if Battle Royale and Rainbow Curse are any indication. And besides, it's not as if most Kirby characters have well defined and deep backstories, so I personally see it as a non-issue. (Taranza, the Haltmann family, and the Jambastion gang being exceptions to this.)

I also don't believe he's can't be unique. Spear is his go-to weapon, sure, but his moveset potential isn't limited to just that. Ever since Planet Robobot, he's been given a special parasol, which he then used in Battle Royale. Items from Return to Dreamland and transformations from Rainbow Curse are also something Sakurai could pull from. Giving Dee a style like K. Rool of mainly using one thing for most of their moveset (Spear and body respectively) while also relying on various other tools could very well be possible. Another way is to give him Dee the full on "Waddle Dee poster boy" (which HAL seems to be going for) treatment which Super Smash Flash 2 did, where he uses his Spear, a random Parasol, and Beam attacks. Dee could also very well pull from various objects you see regular Waddle Dees walking around with. (Of course, as long as his moveset doesn't become cluttered.) And while he hasn't used beam attacks or various objects Waddle Dees used, Sakurai is no stranger to creative liberties if Ness, Lucas, and Simon's Final Smash are any indication.

Anyway, Bandana Dee is by far my most wanted fighter for various reasons, as I explained above, he's got a deceitful amount of moveset potential, and would finally give some Modern Kirby representation in smash that various Kirby fans (including myself) have been craving for. As every stage and assist trophy so far has come from games Sakurai worked from (as well as the majority of remixes, with only Zero 2 and Squeak Squad theme being exceptions). On top of that, the spear is my favourite martial weapon, so I'm kind of biased towards characters that wield them. (Also Dee ****ing helicopters with it that's adorable and would be the best recovery in the entire series' history I love it so much.) Also Waddle Dees are just adorable. But that's just my personal taste.

Not saying other potential Kirby characters won't be good, of course. (Although I must admit to having a huge bias against Marx in particular.) But Bandana Dee would be the perfect choice in my eyes, with plenty of moveset potential, and solidifying himself as part of the maincast ever since Rainbow Curse. I think Dark Matter, Marx, Magolor, and after some reconsideration: Adeleine are frontrunners not close but not far behind him. (Dark Matter especially since HAL seems to be hinting at its return with Star Allies. DLC maybe? The other three however, have popularity going for them.)

As for potential echoes, sadly Galacta Knight's likely out of the running due to being referenced in one of Meta Knight's costumes. Morpho Knight is not likely due to only becoming a character this year despite his design having existed for decades, and Dark Meta Knight lacks ballot support despite having a somewhat recent major appearance (and I'm not talking about Star Allies).
I'm talking about Triple Deluxe
Dedede doesn't have much echo material, and Kirby would have Gooey, but animations would have to be drastically altered. On top of that, making a Kirby echo might be more effort than it's worth.

As for non-character content, I personally would like to see more stuff from Kirby's Modern Era. Something like a stage from Battle Royale, or Another Dimension from Return to Dreamland. Battle Royale in particular has a banger soundtrack, which I'd love to see get some attention. And I feel the Squeaks would make for perfect AT material. And with Epic Yarn getting a rerelease next year, maybe we could see the scrapped stage being revisited for DLC? (Or Prince Fluff in any way shape or form. I can dream. ;-; )
 
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#11
I think he has been too modest with the series. However, I'd rather see Marx or Magolor before bandana dee. I'm not a diehard advocate for Kirby representation, extra characters would feel more like a little bonus to me.
 

Frizz

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#12
I agree, Sakurai's definitely too modest with the series. The last and only time we got any newcomers was back in Brawl. So throughout the entirety of 5 games, that of which span a total of 19 years, we've only 3 newcomers for a series as prestigious as Kirby.

Who knows? Maybe we're getting a much needed Kirby newcomer this time around. They deserve at least one or two more characters.
 
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#14
As a huge Bandana Dee supporter yes I think ge has been modest, more representation from modern Kirby games is sorely needed and Bandana Dee is now part of the main cast and has even been shown over other characters in the past such as in Rainbow Curse. Bandana Dee would be extremely unique too with all the abilities he could use.
 

Gothitelle

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#16
Kirby absolutely needs more representation. I'm expecting Bandana Dee if anything, but praying for Marx. I've been in Japan, and I've seen literal shelves of Kirby plushies in convenience stores - it's popularity and it's representation have a clear disparity.
 

MrArska

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#18
Kirby needs more Smash representation, especially modern Kirby. All of Kirby's current stages are from Super Star or earlier and for being Nintendo's 5th biggest franchise, it doesn't have that much to show in Smash.
Bandana Dee should definitely be the newcomer, as he would complete to RtDL main characters and have a unique moveset with Spear/Parasol based moves.
After that, It should be either Marx or Magolor.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#19
Alright, Day 2! Today's topic is....
If you have listened to the Kirby's 25th anniversary soundtrack, pick any track from it and add it to the music list. For fun. If you haven't, pick your favorite boss theme and add it.
 
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Quillion

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#20
Kirby absolutely needs more representation. I'm expecting Bandana Dee if anything, but praying for Marx. I've been in Japan, and I've seen literal shelves of Kirby plushies in convenience stores - it's popularity and it's representation have a clear disparity.
I think that's mainly because Kirby had an amazing trilogy of games (Return, Triple Deluxe, Robobot) released one after the other.

I'm not sure how Star Allies affected it due to its underwhelming reception.
 

RineYFD

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#22
Kirby is like, Sakurai's child. If it wasn't for Kirby, to be honest with you I don't think we'd even have a Smash game, since without it Sakurai's career wouldn't have blown up without the puffball.
What also doesn't help is that Kirby has many characters you could choose from. Like Bandana Dee, Adeleine & Ribbon, Marx, Daroach, Galacta Knight, Gooey, Prince Fluff, Magolor hell I'd even take Escargoon from the anime series.
It's pretty wrong that Sakurai has been ignoring his creation since Brawl. I know he doesn't work on Kirby games all that much anymore but still.
 
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PsychoIncarnate

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#23
I'd like to see Marx. I'm apathetic toward Bandana Waddle Dee. I question if people actually like him as a character or if they just want a fourth Kirby kirby and see him as the most likely.
 
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#24
I'd like to see Marx. I'm apathetic toward Bandana Waddle Dee. I question if people actually like him as a character or if they just want a fourth Kirby kirby and see him as the most likely.
It's partially that for some(bandwagoning is definitely a thing in Smash), but personally the idea of the weakest mook in the game rising up the ranks to rival the strength and skill of the main protagonist is a great underdog story. Watching him chase off Claycia's hands in the opening of Rainbow Curse whilst Kirby is incapable of doing anything felt surprisingly special to me.

It helps that Waddle Dees in general are designed to be very visually cute and appealing, and arming one with a weapon and watching the default enemy overcome the main villains of the series in combat appeals to my 'Anyone can become great through hard work' belief.
 

Quillion

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#25
It's partially that for some(bandwagoning is definitely a thing in Smash), but personally the idea of the weakest mook in the game rising up the ranks to rival the strength and skill of the main protagonist is a great underdog story. Watching him chase off Claycia's hands in the opening of Rainbow Curse whilst Kirby is incapable of doing anything felt surprisingly special to me.

It helps that Waddle Dees in general are designed to be very visually cute and appealing, and arming one with a weapon and watching the default enemy overcome the main villains of the series in combat appeals to my 'Anyone can become great through hard work' belief.
That said, you gotta admit that Bandana Dee's spear and parasol is rather stock compared to Marx's ball and black hole, Gooey's tongue, and Adeleine's paint.

Yeah, Dee is unique, but the others are more unique.
 

SupriceSupplies

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#29
That said, you gotta admit that Bandana Dee's spear and parasol is rather stock compared to Marx's ball and black hole, Gooey's tongue, and Adeleine's paint.

Yeah, Dee is unique, but the others are more unique.
I personally don't see the problem with something being stock or simple as long as their playstyle is fun. Just look at Simon and Richter, who, specials aside, mostly rely on martial arts and their whips. I think that Dee, with his generally long range and spear throwing abilities, and potential persistent parasol hitbox if it's pulled out, could make for an interesting anti-air character we don't see all that often. (Of course whether that happens remains to be seen.)

Day 3! Today's topic is....
How would you feel if Galacta Knight was an echo fighter of Meta Knight? Would he be better as a clone, or with his own moveset?
I feel with how Galacta's fought in both Meta Knightmare Ultra and Meta Knightmare Returns makes him best suited as an echo. He's got some cool abilities, I won't deny, probably enough to make him at least a semi-clone. While his biggest chances are definitely best as an echo (same goes for Dark Meta Knight and Morpho Knight) and I would like to see him in that way, I wouldn't mind him being a semi-clone either.
 

Quillion

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#30
Day 3! Today's topic is....
How would you feel if Galacta Knight was an echo fighter of Meta Knight? Would he be better as a clone, or with his own moveset?
I'd say he would work as a "normals only" clone at most. I wouldn't be happy if he's missing his Light Swords, energy lance beam, shield beam, and lightning strikes. But he can copy Meta Knight's normals for all I care.
 
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#31
Day 3! Today's topic is....
How would you feel if Galacta Knight was an echo fighter of Meta Knight? Would he be better as a clone, or with his own moveset?
TBH I'd rather see him as a boss. He doesn't really seem like one of the big stars of Kirby that you'd like to see playable, and would probably need significant nerfs to work, but he seems just right as a secret boss, especially if you had to beat him Metaknight before anyone else could fight him.
 

Luigifan18

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#32
Day 3! Today's topic is....
How would you feel if Galacta Knight was an echo fighter of Meta Knight? Would he be better as a clone, or with his own moveset?
I feel like it would work. Maybe give him a Dark Samus type of idle where he floats there.
I feel with how Galacta's fought in both Meta Knightmare Ultra and Meta Knightmare Returns makes him best suited as an echo. He's got some cool abilities, I won't deny, probably enough to make him at least a semi-clone. While his biggest chances are definitely best as an echo (same goes for Dark Meta Knight and Morpho Knight) and I would like to see him in that way, I wouldn't mind him being a semi-clone either.
I'd say he would work as a "normals only" clone at most. I wouldn't be happy if he's missing his Light Swords, energy lance beam, shield beam, and lightning strikes. But he can copy Meta Knight's normals for all I care.
It’s funny that you guys think Galacta Knight could echo Meta Knight, as I'm pretty sure that his weapon isn't a sword. It's more like a lance...
 
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#34
That said, you gotta admit that Bandana Dee's spear and parasol is rather stock compared to Marx's ball and black hole, Gooey's tongue, and Adeleine's paint.

Yeah, Dee is unique, but the others are more unique.
Depends what you do with the spear and parasol I guess? Dee's parasol can launch water blasts in Battle Royale, Star Allies gives him the ability to wield elements on his spear tip...I'm not a big fan of movesets that randomly gives him the Beam ability because Dees and Doos are similar species which seems like a reach...but I'd be down for a Final Smash where Dark Matter transforms him INTO a Waddle Doo and gives him the Beam ability briefly since that at least has happened to a Waddle Dee(whom the fans argue if it is THAT Dee or not).

You're right in that he has only a few varied skills and the rest is adaption of those weapons, but he has more to work with than say...I dunno, Marth with two canon weapons to play with that have he can weild in vastly different ways.

The others certainly have more variation what with Gooey's ability to copy other abilities like Kirby alongside his crazy tongue and Adeline's endless potential with various paintings giving her the ability to do basically anything she wanted.

Interestingly I personally don't think Marx is much more varied than Dee.
Admittedly I don't know much about Marx, but the only things I've seen is him splitting himself in two shooting dark energy and kicking balls around which....well honestly a ball seems like a weapon that's more limiting in variation than a spear even? You can kick it at people and...maybe run people over with it? After that I'm out of ideas for ball based combat but maybe someone can fill me in with some more ideas?

Day 3! Today's topic is....
How would you feel if Galacta Knight was an echo fighter of Meta Knight? Would he be better as a clone, or with his own moveset?
I feel an echo fighter for Kirby would be disappointing at this point. Again, only one I'd accept is Gooey as an incredibly weird Kirby Echo. Galacta Knight isn't the worst idea but I'm not really sure entirely what I'd do with him aside from his obvious Final Smash from Star Allies.
 
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#35
Can I make a suggestion cause I think there is one category you should add.

Sakurai should be less modest to Kirby overall, but more to his developed titles.

I think many can attest that we are sick of nothing but Dreamland and Super Star material. Every stage is based on two games in a franchise that spans multiple entries. We’ve had great Wii and 3DS titles, along with DS and GBA which all never get represented in Smash outside of stickers, maybe a trophy at best. I think Kirby is poorly represented overall, but much of that is due to the two games only policy that has been in Smash since 64. It’s just bad, especially since the 4th main character of Kirby, Bandana Waddle Dee is left with no representation due to being a modern character, and if leaks are true, he may get neglected again. I think this is the overall over-arching issue with Kirby, a decent amount of representation with a less than stellar line up of titles represented.
 
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#36
At the end of the day if we're just adding someone to have a spear user, I'd much prefer Bandana Dee over someone from Fire Emblem.
 

Quillion

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#37
Can I make a suggestion cause I think there is one category you should add.

Sakurai should be less modest to Kirby overall, but more to his developed titles.

I think many can attest that we are sick of nothing but Dreamland and Super Star material. Every stage is based on two games in a franchise that spans multiple entries. We’ve had great Wii and 3DS titles, along with DS and GBA which all never get represented in Smash outside of stickers, maybe a trophy at best. I think Kirby is poorly represented overall, but much of that is due to the two games only policy that has been in Smash since 64. It’s just bad, especially since the 4th main character of Kirby, Bandana Waddle Dee is left with no representation due to being a modern character, and if leaks are true, he may get neglected again. I think this is the overall over-arching issue with Kirby, a decent amount of representation with a less than stellar line up of titles represented.
I hear this a lot, and personally, I don't get it.

Yes, there are no stages from the Return to Dreamland-and-on games, but there's a good case that there's nothing from Return or Triple Deluxe that could offer anything new over the current Kirby stages. Besides, Final Smashes definitely acknowledge the newer games; Kirby got Ultra Sword in place of Cook for Smash 4, and King Dedede's post-Brawl Final Smashes referenced Hypernova and his Masked Dedede self.

So I don't think Sakurai is really ignoring the newer Kirby games.

At the end of the day if we're just adding someone to have a spear user, I'd much prefer Bandana Dee over someone from Fire Emblem.
Yes, you hate Fire Emblem. Don't shoehorn that discussion into this.
 
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#38
I hear this a lot, and personally, I don't get it.

Yes, there are no stages from the Return to Dreamland-and-on games, but there's a good case that there's nothing from Return or Triple Deluxe that could offer anything new over the current Kirby stages. Besides, Final Smashes definitely acknowledge the newer games; Kirby got Ultra Sword in place of Cook for Smash 4, and King Dedede's post-Brawl Final Smashes referenced Hypernova and his Masked Dedede self.

So I don't think Sakurai is really ignoring the newer Kirby games.
I mean, he could add stages from the entries before those titles too. The Mirror World from Amazing Mirror, anything Epic Yarn related, Canvas Curse maybe having a stage like Tiny Town, and even Returns had those Outer Space sections.

There’s also a lack of newer assists, when Kirby has a plethora of non-Sakurai created characters like the animal buddies, the Squeaks, Maglor, Adeline, Ribbon, Gooey, etc.

Then there’s the issue of Bandana Dee essentially being the 4th main Kirby character and being forgotten by Smash entirely, like not even a trophy for the guy.

I think it’s less about Sakurai representing new games, and more about the lack of any representation outside of two games he made. Sakurai has only been the director of 5 titles; Dreamland, Adventure, Super Star, Nightmare, and Air Ride, with a supervisor role on Amazing Mirror. I guess to me and others, it just feels like so much of Kirby’s history is absent by the bias Sakurai has. I get Super Star was a big title, but at some point you need to move on, do Dream Land 2, Epic Yarn, just something else.
 

Quillion

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#39
There’s also a lack of newer assists, when Kirby has a plethora of non-Sakurai created characters like the animal buddies, the Squeaks, Maglor, Adeline, Ribbon, Gooey, etc.
There's a lack of Kirby assists in general, so I don't see what's wrong here.

Then there’s the issue of Bandana Dee essentially being the 4th main Kirby character and being forgotten by Smash entirely, like not even a trophy for the guy.

I think it’s less about Sakurai representing new games, and more about the lack of any representation outside of two games he made. Sakurai has only been the director of 5 titles; Dreamland, Adventure, Super Star, Nightmare, and Air Ride, with a supervisor role on Amazing Mirror. I guess to me and others, it just feels like so much of Kirby’s history is absent by the bias Sakurai has. I get Super Star was a big title, but at some point you need to move on, do Dream Land 2, Epic Yarn, just something else.
Well, if you're talking more about the games that aren't Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star, I can see your point. Perhaps he has actively stopped paying attention to Kirby so that he can stop himself from interfering with his old series?
 
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#40
I hear this a lot, and personally, I don't get it.

Yes, you hate Fire Emblem. Don't shoehorn that discussion into this.
Uhhh where is this coming from? First of all I was mainly responding to this
That's a strange poll. Anyway, I don't care about Bandana Dee. He's certainly not a replacement for someone like Ephraim.
And I don't hate Fire Emblem, I just don't like most of its characters in Smash. Why so confrontational over a simple preference?
 
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