Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[The DanMan051]

- Not to repeat what all the FE haters say, but Chrom shouldn't exist. There's absolutely no reason for us to have four characters derived from the same moveset.

Two of them are Echoes/glorified alt costumes (with one of them being added last minute in Smash 4 alongside two others), with Chrom having a single sorta unique move that's derived from Ike. And of course the whole Roy being a semi-clone deal (reminded of an argument on the subreddit where people were trying to say Roy should've been classified as a Marth Echo).

And here's a google trends analysis comparing interest for K. Rool, Ridley, Geno, Chrom, and Simon Belmont-- with "Smash" included in the query --during 2015 (the bulk of which was the Ballot period):
https://trends.google.com/trends/ex... K Rool Smash,Chrom Smash,Simon Belmont Smash
Funnily, this dovetails with your bit about Geno, because there was seemingly more interest/demand for Chrom than there was for him (remove the spike from when Geno was announced as a Mii Fighter costume, and Chrom's advantage is pretty decisive).

So, there clearly was some interest in him getting in, moreso than the likes of Geno, and his implementation was easily done and harmless enough. I just don't see the point of really feeling strongly either way about Echoes; because, as I said, they're really just glorified alts. It's ironic how a couple tiny differences and their own spot on the CSS makes so much difference to some people.

 

[Phyr]

Wanted to point out what many have before - they only got irritated when people started acting rude towards them without any reason besides "They said this leak that has a character I want isn't in."

Now sure they aren't giving evidence, but that's because they literally can't otherwise they lose all trust and any chance of getting information in the future. But not a single insider has claimed the leak is 100% accurate except Papagenos source which again is a secondhand anonymous source compared to credible insiders we've known for years.

And another thing...when these insiders were leaking Snake & Ridley everyone ate it up. Now they're saying the Grinch Leak isn't 100% correct and no one wants to listen to them. It's absolutely possible they've been given false information, but up to this point they haven't. I don't think it's fair to just toss out what they're saying. Should at least be considered.

We are considering them tho. Thats why we are intrigued.

First, most of them started like that. Serebii outright denied it because yeah. Gameexplain did the worst video ever. This was before we started bashing them, they were using argument of authority.

I used to listen to them because we had no better stuff, but they didnt predict krool for example, another got mixrd up with skull kid who got rydley and simon right (simon before the bloody tears leak).

This wouldnt happen if there were no "insiders info" like someone showed before. Is unfair for us. We are absolutely doing what they love, fanboy/girl-ing their statements because they are insiders.

Ffs, so precious is for them to have that info stuff that they have to be shady about why its fake (but gain atrention) and yet they still want that juicy info for more attention in the future? Am I the only one who thinks this stuff is too ****ing shady?

Look at the leaker who leaked mvc:i. He even admitelly said that "he cant come to the idea of him or his source being wrong". If thats not entitlement, what is it then? At least the so hated vergeben oppenly admitted that "this is not what i ve been ttold so I dunno". Is that hard to be a little more.... dunno, human?

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

"Works with blog theory"

...I thought this was supposed to be evidence?

The blog theory is mathmaticly with the amount of characters left in the blog not shown with days remaining it gets 6-8 remaining

 

[DRM4R10]

What if we got a fan requested third gen Pokemon of Blaziken or Sceptile (are they already in Pokken) instead of a new one? well I can dream...

I think it's way too late. Brawl should have introduced a Gen 3 Pokémon, because between Melee and Brawl, Gen 3 and Gen 4 came out. What we got instead was 3 new Gen 1 Pokémon (yes I'm counting them as separate characters, since they basically have all the moves of a character, with the exception of Down Special), and a Gen 4 Pokémon, Lucario.

The same thing happened with Smash 4. Between Brawl and Smash 4, we had Gen 5 and Gen 6 that were released. So Gen 5 was skipped, and the only newcomer Pokémon we got is Greninja from Gen 4.

Brawl and Smash 4 (before DLC) lacked Pichu and Mewtwo, a Gen 2 and a Gen 1 Pokémon, but in Ultimate, if you list all the generations with the number of representatives they have, you get: (assuming Grinch leak is official)
Gen 1: 6 Pokémon: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard
Gen 2: 1 Pokémon: Pichu
Gen 3: 0 Pokémon
Gen 4: 1 Pokémon: Lucario
Gen 5: 0 Pokémon
Gen 6: 1 Pokémon: Greninja
Gen 7: 0 Pokémon.


It makes sense that Gen 1 would get the most representatives since it is the most marketable generation, but the problem with Gen 3 onwards is that you don't have pokémon that really stick out and can be recognised. Lucario was really popular because of its film and other reasons, but I feel like Gen 3 and Gen 5 don't have really have a pokémon like Lucario. And since those generations are kinda becoming less relevant and the Pokémon universe already has a lot of characters, I'm not sure we'll ever get a smash game with at least one representative per generation.

 

[osby]

Two of them are Echoes/glorified alt costumes (with one of them being added last minute in Smash 4 alongside two others), with Chrom having a single sorta unique move that's derived from Ike. And of course the whole Roy being a semi-clone deal (reminded of an argument on the subreddit where people were trying to say Roy should've been classified as a Marth Echo).

And here's a google trends analysis comparing interest for K. Rool, Ridley, Geno, Chrom, and Simon Belmont-- with "Smash" included in the query --during 2015 (the bulk of which was the Ballot period):
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2015-01-01 2015-12-31&geo=US&q=Geno Smash,Ridley Smash,King K Rool Smash,Chrom Smash,Simon Belmont Smash
Funnily, this dovetails with your bit about Geno, because there was seemingly more interest/demand for Chrom than there was for him (remove the spike from when Geno was announced as a Mii Fighter costume, and Chrom's advantage is pretty decisive).

So, there clearly was some interest in him getting in, moreso than the likes of Geno, and his implementation was easily done and harmless enough. I just don't see the point of really feeling strongly either way about Echoes; because, as I said, they're really just glorified alts. It's ironic how a couple tiny differences and their own spot on the CSS makes so much difference to some people.

I mean, most of the time people count squares in the CSS as characters, instead of comparing the time and effort went to them. That's why "Dark Pit got in over Wolf" was a thing, and nobody had a problem with Super Mario getting 9 characters last game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

By the way, I think it's really wild people are so aggressive against ACTUAL insiders with ACTUAL track records, including SPOTLESS records, by calling them big name nobodies, meanwhile people believe papagenos who as far as I can tell, is literally just a regular youtuber.That's some galaxy brain bull**** like that right there. Never change Smash community.

Actually DO change cause this community is kind of ass

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I find the entire line awesome too! What do you think about Vikavolt?

Oh. Vikavolt is pretty cool.
I was one of the few people who left Charjabug on their team throughout the main story, so I managed to evolve her without a sweat

I feel like Gen 3 and Gen 5 don't have really have a pokémon like Lucario.

Gardevoir and Chandelure say hi.

 

[Koopaul]

The fact that it took so long for people to move on from "gen 7 Pokemon" to "Incineroar is it" makes me think Incineroar is most likely DLC. Could also explain why he seems to be a character a lot of people know about if he happened to be a character they were working on more recently due to being a Mewtwo like DLC. I really don't think Incineroar was planned for base game.

I mean we can spitball theories. But there is one big truth. That any leak revolving Pokemon has always been vague and sounded somewhat uncertain. Compare that to the leaks of Simon and Ridley which were straightforward.

When a leak sounds vague, then you should always be skeptical.

 

[Das Koopa]

By the way, I think it's really wild people are so aggressive against ACTUAL insiders with ACTUAL track records, including SPOTLESS records, by calling them big name nobodies, meanwhile people believe papagenos who as far as I can tell, is literally just a regular youtuber.That's some galaxy brain bull**** like that right there. Never change Smash community.

Actually DO change cause this community is kind of ***

serious question - which insiders are we talking about here have spotless records? I've seen people make claims but absolutely zero evidence. People to this day say Vergeben's track record is perfect and totally disregard what a dumpster fire it is outside of Smash and often forget many of the claims he's made were not publicly original to him.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Wanted to point out what many have before - they only got irritated when people started acting rude towards them without any reason besides "They said this leak that has a character I want isn't in."

Now sure they aren't giving evidence, but that's because they literally can't otherwise they lose all trust and any chance of getting information in the future. But not a single insider has claimed the leak is 100% accurate except Papagenos source which again is a secondhand anonymous source compared to credible insiders we've known for years.

And another thing...when these insiders were leaking Snake & Ridley everyone ate it up. Now they're saying the Grinch Leak isn't 100% correct and no one wants to listen to them. It's absolutely possible they've been given false information, but up to this point they haven't. I don't think it's fair to just toss out what they're saying. Should at least be considered.

>Obsession with Yoshi and now claims Salazzle of all Pokemon is his favorite Gen 7 pokemon

Ok now I'm convinced you're a scaly

I think the problem is, like you said, they give no evidence--but they are aggressively against this leak. It's how aggressive they are in their denial and certainty. That being said, the toxicity that has developed after this leak is troublesome, and so I don't blame them for taking issue with some of the reactions fans have had. But "I told you so" is not good enough--it's different when an insider makes a definitive claim "x is in" rather than "this is fake". We're waiting for a "because" in the latter, but not the former. That's the difference, I believe. And, of course, if that reason is something they cannot share, perfectly understandable. But they should also understand that "I told you so" also isn't good enough for people to believe them (especially when instead they give BS speculation and state it as if it's fact). And some are, though some are fairly arrogant in their stances. I'm personally waiting for "this leak is fake because x isn't in" rather than a character isn't in the image, as then their stance is an assumption, rather than an outright contradiction.

 

[IMainKingKRool]

unrevealed non-echoes lose a lot of points with me just because i have no idea how they'll play, but here's my newcomer ranking anyway. most to least excited.

Spoiler

- i almost cried during the direct, dkc is my favorite game franchise of all time and i've wanted him in for years. dream come true
- precious child i love her
- he deserves it, looks like a lot of fun, i love heavies and villains so i gravitated towards him even though i'm not a big metroid fan

ken - ryu but cooler, and i love ryu in smash, so i'd definitely play him a bunch

shadow - i'm a sucker for edge so it'd probably motivate me to play him a good bit even though i hate sonic's kit
- didn't enjoy splatoon but i was still excited for this because its music is jammin and the characters are cute
- never played castlevania, but he looks dang fun and i love the barbarian he-man aesthetic
- rad design and looks to be straight-up better than samus, who i enjoyed a lot in 4, though i've got no connection with the character herself
- "who is this guy" during trailer but upon finding out he's the guy responsible for the legendary "die monster" speech i was interested. still kinda prefer simon's design but i'll prob play both

banjo-kazooie - loved the original on n64, never really thought about them as a smash character but they're definitely iconic enough to deserve it and they'd probably be fun to play
- don't like the character but i played a lot of lucina and roy in 4, so i'll still try him out
- always preferred peach, this one's a hard meh from me

mach rider - only ever heard of through smash, don't really care about em but i'm not mad at it. vehicle-based moveset could be neat

incineroar - i don't dislike him per se but i personally feel there's better choices for a 7th gen playable pokemon

geno, isaac, chorus kids - never played their games, no idea what they're capable of. cool for their fans, but i can't be excited until i see them in action

 

[Cutie Gwen]

serious question - which insiders are we talking about here have spotless records? I've seen people make claims but absolutely zero evidence. People to this day say Vergeben's track record is perfect and totally disregard what a dumpster fire it is outside of Smash and often forget many of the claims he's made were not publicly original to him.

Spawnwave, who's gotten 9 'predictions' completely right and Ryce, the guy who leaked everything about MVCI think this doesn't add up to their sources,

 

[Phyr]

By the way, I think it's really wild people are so aggressive against ACTUAL insiders with ACTUAL track records, including SPOTLESS records, by calling them big name nobodies, meanwhile people believe papagenos who as far as I can tell, is literally just a regular youtuber.That's some galaxy brain bull**** like that right there. Never change Smash community.

Actually DO change cause this community is kind of ***

I actually dont trust papageno's. Is a point but is a low value point. Anybody can have a MS card and say whatever, that too is easy (and mind you, in fact, that even papageno's source was perplexed about the mural, like the rest of the insiders).

Not wanting to see something is shady with the contradictions and general mood of the insider group is being blind. Something is very fishy I think. Or at the very least, this leak is so good that even the ohsogood insiders are having their trust doubted.

 

[Jetsurge]

Gardevoir and Zoroark say hi

For Gen 3 I'd say Blaziken was the most iconic. Zoroark isn't really that popular. They tried to make him the next Lucario but failed.

 

[Iridium]

Oh. Vikavolt is pretty cool.
I was one of the few people who left Charjabug on their team throughout the main story, so I managed to evolve her without a sweat

Gardevoir and Zoroark say hi (I'd also put Flygon and Chandelure in that area)

But I have to say, the fact that Vikavolt is slower than fricking Grubbin makes literally no sense to me. At least it destroys Pokémon with its Sp. Atk.

 

[skylanders fan]

another day and still no true answer to the Grinch.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Spawnwave, who's gotten 9 'predictions' completely right and Ryce, the guy who leaked everything about MVCI think this doesn't add up to their sources,

Ryce got everything right about MvCI with the exception of Ant-Man.

 

[Phyr]

Spawnwave, who's gotten 9 'predictions' completely right and Ryce, the guy who leaked everything about MVCI think this doesn't add up to their sources,

Yeah but both of them have admitted that the leak seems real and that they are perplexed at to what might have happen

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

another day and still no true answer to the Grinch.

maybe we are looking in the wrong area. Perhaps we shouldn't looking at the Grinch himself... but how about his dog, Max?
That pupper's definitely up to something...

 

[CosmicQuark]

Spawnwave, who's gotten 9 'predictions' completely right and Ryce, the guy who leaked everything about MVCI think this doesn't add up to their sources,

Spawn Wave's a weird one, though. He doesn't outright deny it--he said if it is real, then it's missing stuff, though he thinks it might be fake. But then his reasoning becomes speculation, rather than anything from sources (that we know of). So, it's hard to tell from him, really.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

For Gen 3 I'd say Blaziken was the most iconic. Zoroark isn't really that popular. They tried to make him the next Lucario but failed.

lol Blaziken isn't the most iconic Gen III mon, there's the Pokemon they used as mascots on the cover, Gardevoir, who's gotten a LOT more attention than most other Pokemon and I'd argue Metagross, although that might be because Metagross got me in to Pokemon cause of my sister. Blaziken is probably the most iconic of the 3 starters though.
Zoroark tried to be Lucario but failed because Lucario wasn't limited to an event and was in the best selling fighting game of all time

 

[link2702]

Tinfoil hat time.

I’m sure this might have in fact been brought up before, but is it at all possible that Nintendo themselves have actually been providing multiple “leaks” To keep people confused, so that when the inevitable real leak happens (which may or may not be this one) no one can be absolutely sure it’s the real deal? What if they’ve been intentionally providing some false information to “credible” folks like Vergeben(without verge realizing it), with careful bits of truth mixed in?

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Spawnwave, who's gotten 9 'predictions' completely right and Ryce, the guy who leaked everything about MVCI think this doesn't add up to their sources,

Yea but you got to understand

There no such thing as a flawless streak for life people get stuff wrong sometimes

And this is no different to the esrb leak lot of creditable people thought it was fake too.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ryce got everything right about MvCI with the exception of Ant-Man.

And there's evidence to suggest he got cut due to technical difficulties

Yea but you got to understand

There no such thing as a flawless streak for life people get stuff wrong sometimes

And this is no different to the esrb leak lot of creditable people thought it was fake too.

My point is these credible people are being accused of lying or having false info whereas papagenos is infallible by the same people

 

[Deleted member]

Question. Were there any prominent insiders back in the Smash 4 days that made comments on ESRB outside of Ninka/Vaan?

Just curious if the reactions there were at all similar, if there are any to compare.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Tinfoil hat time.

I’m sure this might have in fact been brought up before, but is it at all possible that Nintendo themselves have actually been providing multiple “leaks” To keep people confused, so that when the inevitable real leak happens (which may or may not be this one) no one can be absolutely sure it’s the real deal. What if they’ve been intentionally providing some false information to “credible” folks like Vergeben(without verge realizing it), with careful bits of truth mixed in,

It's very well possible,
I mean, if they make Xander Mobus say characters who aren't actually in the game for security reasons, then it makes sense that they would do that...

 

[Spinzilla]

I think it's way too late. Brawl should have introduced a Gen 3 Pokémon, because between Melee and Brawl, Gen 3 and Gen 4 came out. What we got instead was 3 new Gen 1 Pokémon (yes I'm counting them as separate characters, since they basically have all the moves of a character, with the exception of Down Special), and a Gen 4 Pokémon, Lucario.

The same thing happened with Smash 4. Between Brawl and Smash 4, we had Gen 5 and Gen 6 that were released. So Gen 5 was skipped, and the only newcomer Pokémon we got is Greninja from Gen 4.

Brawl and Smash 4 (before DLC) lacked Pichu and Mewtwo, a Gen 2 and a Gen 1 Pokémon, but in Ultimate, if you list all the generations with the number of representatives they have, you get: (assuming Grinch leak is official)
Gen 1: 6 Pokémon: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard
Gen 2: 1 Pokémon: Pichu
Gen 3: 0 Pokémon
Gen 4: 1 Pokémon: Lucario
Gen 5: 0 Pokémon
Gen 6: 1 Pokémon: Greninja
Gen 7: 0 Pokémon.


It makes sense that Gen 1 would get the most representatives since it is the most marketable generation, but the problem with Gen 3 onwards is that you don't have pokémon that really stick out and can be recognised. Lucario was really popular because of its film and other reasons, but I feel like Gen 3 and Gen 5 don't have really have a pokémon like Lucario. And since those generations are kinda becoming less relevant and the Pokémon universe already has a lot of characters, I'm not sure we'll ever get a smash game with at least one representative per generation.

I always liked the idea of having a rival pokemon trainer with each pokemon representing the 3 gens that lack starters.

I would kill to have Giovanni as the pokemon rep bad guy in Smash though.

 

[Weeman]

Insiders aren't oracles. Like i agree people are biased and will use every smudge of info to try and convince themselves the leak is real, but insider info isn't always reliable either.
Hell the whole Gematsu leak, which most people nowadays agree was real, ended up not having all the characters and getting some wrong anyways.
For all we know all these sources saying Incineroar could have outdated info like that.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And there's evidence to suggest he got cut due to technical difficulties

Really? Didn't know that.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Question. Were there any prominent insiders back in the Smash 4 days that made comments on ESRB outside of Ninka/Vaan?

Just curious if the reactions there were at all similar, if there are any to compare.

Gamexplain reported on them, unlike this one, but don't know what their opinions were. RogersBase, which pops up there from time to time, was on Team Real then and Team Fake here. Not sure, though, as what may be happening may also be unprecedented, at least that's the way it looks.

 

[Das Koopa]

Spawnwave, who's gotten 9 'predictions' completely right and Ryce, the guy who leaked everything about MVCI think this doesn't add up to their sources,

When I say proof, part of what I'm referring to is -

-Tweets of these predictions.

-Clarifying if they've gotten things wrong before.

-Noting if they were the first to actually bring the claim to light, or if they are simply piggybacking off of other reliable people.

I mean actual evidence. You're saying "they did this", and that's well and fine, but people also regularly say a lot of things that are demonstrably false. I know that's pedantic to ask for an actual pseudo-investigation and number of tweets/sources, but that's the nature of making claims on the internet about leaks. People who make those claims shouldn't be trusted until they are right, and if they are right, it needs to be timestamped and compared with other insiders who made the claim to see if that person was the first.

Outside of that, it's hearsay, and it's absolutely useless, because it's information they refuse to make public for the purposes of an actual investigation. That's why a lot of people, including myself, don't trust insiders on the face of it.

Now, you're also bringing papagenos into this, and that's fine - I don't see any reason to take his claims at face value either. I'm not aware of anything he's leaked before. If someone could illuminate, that'd be good, but otherwise I trust him as much as I trust any other potential insider.

 

[Door Key Pig]

The blog theory is mathmaticly with the amount of characters left in the blog not shown with days remaining it gets 6-8 remaining

Seven characters in the banner leak and "another one" according to SpawnWave or whoever (Incineroar?), interesting!

 

[Jetsurge]

By the way, I think it's really wild people are so aggressive against ACTUAL insiders with ACTUAL track records, including SPOTLESS records, by calling them big name nobodies, meanwhile people believe papagenos who as far as I can tell, is literally just a regular youtuber.That's some galaxy brain bull**** like that right there. Never change Smash community.

Actually DO change cause this community is kind of ***

There were insiders who thought the ESEB leak was wrong as well. Seriously calm down, people are free to believe whatever they want regarding the leak, not everyone has to share your opinion.

 

[Z25]

If I remember correctly before the footage came out, insiders doubted the ERSB leak. Not that that stopped people from calling the footage brawl mods.

 

[Spatman]

Wanted to point out what many have before - they only got irritated when people started acting rude towards them without any reason besides "They said this leak that has a character I want isn't in."

Now sure they aren't giving evidence, but that's because they literally can't otherwise they lose all trust and any chance of getting information in the future. But not a single insider has claimed the leak is 100% accurate except Papagenos source which again is a secondhand anonymous source compared to credible insiders we've known for years.

And another thing...when these insiders were leaking Snake & Ridley everyone ate it up. Now they're saying the Grinch Leak isn't 100% correct and no one wants to listen to them. It's absolutely possible they've been given false information, but up to this point they haven't. I don't think it's fair to just toss out what they're saying. Should at least be considered.

>Obsession with Yoshi and now claims Salazzle of all Pokemon is his favorite Gen 7 pokemon

Ok now I'm convinced you're a scaly

What if namco gave slightly different rosters to different design studios in order to avoid completely accurate leaks?

 

[CosmicQuark]

Also, gotta say--this leak has made it so rather than hearing "Spiral Mountain" every day for the past couple weeks, the past few days I've heard nothing but "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch" in my head.

 

[Jetsurge]

If I remember correctly before the footage came out, insiders doubted the ERSB leak. Not that that stopped people from calling the footage brawl mods.

"Shulk is just a modded Ike"

 

[Androobie]

Remember that trademarks are renewed routinely by Nintendo. There is a possibility this has something to do with the leak, but I can almost assure you that Nintendo renewing its trademarks is done over and over again. For example, Nintendo renewed Eternal Darkness's copyright 4 to 6 times and we never saw the game being released again.

 

[Wyoming]

another day and still no true answer to the Grinch.

There's only three ways this could end:

A. Official reveal by Nintendo that includes all of these characters or doesn't include them at all.
B. If it is a leak - the creator comes forth and shows us how he or she did it.
C. The craziest one here, but...if another leak comes up and is much much more believable.

It will be people on both camps arguing about semantics or details until one of these things happens.

 

[Pyra]

Mornin' dudes. What's going on--

By the way, I think it's really wild people are so aggressive against ACTUAL insiders with ACTUAL track records, including SPOTLESS records, by calling them big name nobodies, meanwhile people believe papagenos who as far as I can tell, is literally just a regular youtuber.That's some galaxy brain bull**** like that right there. Never change Smash community.

Actually DO change cause this community is kind of ***

this is another post that i can't wait to see how it ages because it'll be hilarious either way